Tha Black Phenom

September 17, 2011

I dunno, it's not even four months ago that people wanted Rock to wrestle at SummerSlam, against Miz or some other bright star. Or they whined at the beginning about waiting for a year and wanted Rock and Cena to actually face off at SummerSlam. I agree now their Mania match won't come across as that special. But is it that big of a detriment? it's gonna boost SS buys and people will still tune in at Mania for their showdown. If that's the small drawback they wanna do to complement both SS and Mania hype, then I'm all for it. There are still people on FB whining like babies that Rock isn't back full-time, so if anything it'll appease them too.

IMO it's much better than seeing them take shots at each other through social networking means, which was bright at the start but got into a lull real fast. They'll have to change it up somehow.

September 17, 2011

Well let's attribute that comeback vibe to Survivor Series then. It'd be fun to instill some serious hype onto that PPV, it's needed some for years due to those cookie-cutter throw-it-in 5v5 matches with little relevance.

Rock vs. Cena at WrestleMania can be kept for something else. Maybe they're gonna crunch the feud up to that point, and make it personal, or.. just add another layer to it.

September 13, 2011

Went to Raw last night, was mostly decent, nothing too spectacular apart from the final promo. Good to see Rhodes win, maybe I'll get behind him somehow. Amusing how H used Cena of all people as an example. Don't even recall him being vocal all that much against Cena during his rise.

Yeah, Ryder won against McIntyre before the show and the post-show match featured Bret locking Miz in the sharpshooter.

September 11, 2011

/nod, and that's also what I mean, right now we'd feel comfortable putting Punk and Miz in that short list of guys DJ just posted. The only thing being that yes, they're not in Cena or Orton's position yet but at least we got guys nearing that status now. They're the ones being made. They're bringing them in one after the other, and yeah we'll have to endure a lot of hopscotch booking (you could even argue.. if that's what the current generation appreciates) good and bad, but soon enough one of these guys will get "there" too. Maybe it's gonna take Miz turning face? A face-turned Ziggler, or some other popular skyrocketing heel persona shot out of a cannon, who knows. Maybe they did miss the boat with Punk(boat sure as hell hasn't sank yet though). but all that's needed is patience and something's bound to stick, eventually.

September 10, 2011

Fans cheer and back winners...period. At some point, if they guy/team they are following doesn't win (and win clean), they stop being seen as credible (see WCW vs NWO -WCW never got the upperhand and eventually crowd support for the "good guys" turned into apathy). Even if a heel is going to ultimately lose, they still need to be seen as a credible threat to the face. Think about how boring Batman comics would be if the worse thing the Joker did to get over was to try to get Batman thrown in jail or to knock over a hot dog stand. Those aren't "evil". The Joker got over b/c he very often had Batman at his wits end and Batman was either just a bit smarter or quicker on the draw or pulled out a miraculous batarang throw just in time to foil the Joker's plans.

Wrestling is similar. The heels HAVE to be seen as a threat. Whether it be to the faces title, to the faces health, or something. In the end, the face needs to win the war, but the heel needs to win some battles along the way. I don't think Christian won enough battles to make the war really interesting.

The war maybe hasn't been all that interesting, but it sure got Christian higher than where he used to be. Heels get to be seen as a threat through coattail-riding mechanics a lot more often than in the past. I hear a lot of the IWC ask "why didn't the heel win this to make him look stronger" and honestly, the way I've always seen it is that the heel gets lucky victories and hangs on to the babyface's shadow by drawing heat and being an overall jerk. Victories won't come along often, and when they do it'll be done to make the said victory stand out. The threat factor mainly resides in backstage assaults, the feud's heat and cheap one-ups.

Likewise, I hear Miz's WWE title run "wasn't all that great". Even I, who is by no means a fan of The Miz at all, can attest that reign did its job and it elevated him enough to be a star today. He's not headlining anything right now but he could at anytime.

The question you have to ask is, what's the difference between where he was before this and where he is now, in real terms? The last few months, sure. He's been a little behind the times. But when he was the leader of the New Nexus? He was on TV this much. He's on TV a little more, now? What is it exactly?

I recall Punk not even being featured on a Raw or two during the New Nexus run. He definitely is on TV and on the mic more often now.

Forgot to add, if they (they being Vince/Steph/creative/etc) can't have a decent idea of what is/is not going to get a reaction then they shouldn't be in a position to determine that.

Honestly, it's a fairly intricate variable at times. Only sometimes.

To be fair, that was a pretty misleading thing for Rock to say. I don't blame any fans, adult or not, to have taken him at his word. Especially if they're not on the internet or studying the inner workings of things.

Similarly, here we've got a misleading advert. Not cool.

I defended Rock for a while after his birthday bash, but I agree with you, it's hard to say he wasn't misleading. Though, I mean.. even I knew what he meant, and I knew he would never come back full-time, but I suppose Rock could've somewhat considered how fickle wrestling fans can be... and hell, it's not even them who started calling out The Rock on that. No, it had to be Cena and Randy Orton themselves, though Orton did it only through interview or something. A lot of wrestling fans out there want, want, want, marks and smarks alike, so there was bound to be people misunderstanding what Rocky meant.

Now this.. will he be in the ring at Survivor Series? I doubt it, but I wouldn't put it past them either. I dunno.

September 8, 2011

I certainly see their potential. But that doesn't mean the WWE has made them stars. In fact, it's probably the opposite. If we're still talking about their potential, it means they're not stars yet. No one talks about Tom Brady's potential anymore.

I didn't say they made them stars. We were talking about creating new stars, are we not? As in, in the process of. And that will include some prospects taking the backseat so the WWE can test the waters with other talent. We can sit here and say "now, now" but again it's not always that simple. Punk is getting that 'now' rub if you wanna be technical, it goes one at a time. They can push multiple guys at once yeah, and yeah it requires long-term planning but another thing that's required is the star power. Below you say it yourself, they have 2.5 stars. So they have to go at it slowly.

But it's needed now. The WWE has 2.5 stars, all of which are faces. Now's the time for credible, mainstay heels. Instead they jobbed Christian to Orton nearly every other week over the summer, and now they've moved Christian into a feud with Sheamus, a feud Christian will probably lose considering the heat Sheamus has.

Yeah, Sheamus who's the other big face of the brand. They're literally doing square dancing with the four top guys on SmackDown!, that's what it looks like to me.

Credible mainstay heels don't always need to go over, at least not over the big babyface dog of the brand. It has rarely gone like that since the heel HHH days, why would it be the case now? Getting the heat is what matters.

September 8, 2011

On the 1st RAW Supershow, Christian ate the pin even though the next night he was going to face Orton on Super Smackdown. Why couldn't Sheamus (coming off losing a feud with Henry) take the fall by losing to Christian? Gives both of them something to do next (and it appears that is the direction they are going) and it makes Christian a little stronger going into his title match.

Maybe they don't want to make Christian look stronger. Being the opportunistic heel that he is, he will get pinned, a lot. But saying that, people think that means he's gonna get shafted or something - it's not that black and white. He can lose loads and still be featured in main-events if they craft a motive and story around it, and show how much of a mainstay he can be despite the losses and pins.

That's another aspect I've been talking about; when some of us are antsy over booking aspects even if other factors can take precedence.

And yes, it's possible to push multiple people at once, but it takes some long term thought and 75% of a show can't be devoted to 2 angles leaving the rest of the roster to fight over 30 mins of air time. At any time, the WWE should be able to answer the "what now?" before it happens. If Cena beats ADR, what now? Henry gets the belt from Orton...ok...what now? Instead of building credible challengers/opponents from the midcard, they use plug and pray booking and HOPE that the program works out.

The reason resides in Triple H's interview up there; yeah, they switch things around a lot but that's because of many factors clashing at once. They have to deal with the crowd reaction, sometimes if they see it isn't favorable they'll change things at a minute's notice. If it's more than favorable(Punk's reaction), they'll adjust too. It's live television, sometimes they'll have to make changes even if it looks sketchy. Of course, sometimes it just won't look pretty at all and certain angles can fall flat on their faces.

Answering the "what now" either isn't that simple, or when they do it we barely realize because "that's how it's supposed to be". Also when they try to, sometimes it becomes very predictable(which is ironically another thing people bitch about).

September 8, 2011

That's some pretty crazy logic.

You see their potential do you not? Which isn't just because they're talented but because they're putting effort in advancing their characters, crafting their promos and what they bring to the table. You know where the majority of them will(or should) land in the next few years.

In reference to Christian, I said 'shuffling', present tense. And I fully believe they're currently in the process of working him down the card, much in the same way they moved Barrett, The Miz, Ziggler, Swagger, etc., right back down the card.

It's like I said, if they wanna create new guys, some will have to take a backseat at some point. The Miz has been taking a sizeable backseat when we all know he could rise back up to main-event stardom when the time will be right. Some cases will look less optimistic such as Swagger's, when it comes to Christian though he has what it takes in my opinion to be a mainstay heel for the brand if needed.

Why end the program with Cena? Seriously, why? It was the hottest story the WWE has had in years, possibly a decade. Why hotshot it to a poor conclusion?

But if you have to end it, why move him into a feud with Kevin Nash and a face Triple H? Nash is old, irrelevant, and bad, and won't be able to deliver any good matches with Punk at PPVs.

And Triple H is just a terrible foe for Punk right now. Like I said before, Punk's schtick of speaking truth to power doesn't work when the power is incredibly popular. Again, Triple H was getting the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon. What can Punk do to draw heat from Triple H right now? All they've got him doing is insulting Stephanie and criticizing Triple H's manhood. Punk is currently a face acting like a heel to a more popular face.

This is the biggest non-title angle Punk could be in? A terrible whodunnit with no proper foe and little in the way of PPV payoffs?

To be fair, if Triple H or Cena turns heel on Punk at NoC, they can salvage this story to a point. I think no matter what they'll have missed a huge opportunity with Punk, but they can at least undo the damage of the past month if they get their **** together going forward. I don't have a ton of confidence in that happening, but I'm willing to wait and see what they do at NoC.

I guess it's down to one's perspective how long it lasted, I didn't really feel any amounts of hotshotting myself, it looked clear they a) tried to wrap it up for the second biggest PPV of the year and b) they tried to cement Punk's face turn. He would've always gotten cheered against Cena, but if they wanted his face turn to be crystallized they had to gear him towards someone else. If you feel otherwise on the hotsotting of the angle fairplay, just for curiosity I wonder where else you could've sent the angle from then on.

And yes, better this than Punk feuding with R-Truth or Miz(though Miz could be a worthy angle right there). The disposition aspect between Punk/H is indeed head-scratching, and with Nash "out" of the picture for now, something has to give.. my prediction is Triple H turning heel. Or another party entering the fray. Either way, with how spotty the angle's been lately, I still have trust in two promo kings in HHH and Punk to deliver at least something decent. Even their promos on SD! caught attention.

September 8, 2011

When the WWE has two legitimate stars, yes, that's a bad thing. They should be creating new stars. And using some of their most talented workers as glorified jobbers for one of their two stars before shuffling them back off to the midcard isn't the way to create stars.

By legitimate I mean guys that have main event level heat right now, guys that can legitimately carry a main event program. That's Cena and Orton right now. That's it.

Punk is close, and I'd say for about a month there he was at that level. But pretty much everything since MitB has killed his momentum and knocked him down a step.

I think the WWE has a lot of potential stars. Punk, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Miz, Christian, even Dolph Ziggler in my opinion. But those guys aren't going to ever reach Cena or Orton's level if the best opportunity they get is to be Cena or Orton's foe du jour.

There's a discrepancy there; nobody needs to reach Cena or Orton's level. They're the made guys, creating new stars doesn't just entail equaling their status. The fact you've been able to name a number of potential stars shows that they are creating new stars, and eventually, the majority of them will get their due. If someone is talented and over though, say like Punk, they may reach close or to where Cena/Orton are.

I don't wanna use Rock and Austin as a template to show where Cena and Orton have gotten to, but I'd say it's as close as it gets.

Christian didn't get shuffled back to the midcard at all, he's gotten more airtime than ever before, even on Raw. Consistently ruffling feathers with main-eventers, Raw's main-eventers even, how is that being shuffled back? Guys like Morrison and Kofi, now they got shuffled back to the midcard. Because they haven't been able to capitalize on their opportunities and became an afterthought.

Edit: You talk about Punk's momentum being knocked down a step since MITB(I would've thought since SS but okay). What else could he do after a program with Cena? Go to SD and feud with Orton? They gave him the biggest non-title angle you could arguably give someone, IMO. You can't push everyone at the same time. To create new stars, some will have to take the backseat, but just because they aren't treated in God mode doesn't mean they aren't legitimate stars. This is a different playground than a few years ago, where veterans were pissing out left and right. More than half of them are gone now.

September 7, 2011

And with many examples of this, it really is baffling that some people still cling to the "Wait and see where it goes" mantra.

Really, huh.. cause I recall when Punk first announced he was gonna leave with the WWE championship, and it was assured he would be quitting, people implored that WWE would be idiots if they didn't keep Punk strapped to them. Cue to two weeks after MITB, Punk returns and people bitch that he was brought back too soon. There's so many other storylines out there which this applies to.

And earlier on you bring up the Christian/Orton example, Christian ending up as a glorified jobber to Orton over the summer. Because that's a bad thing all of a sudden? Many people on the roster would sweat tears to be that 'glorified jobber' if it meant main-eventing your brand over the course of the whole summer. Right now Christian's much higher than he used to be preceding that whole angle. He rode Orton's coattails and made profit off it with his talent.

The wait and see mantra works. Just not all the time. But for now I'd rather go by that every now and then than persecuting weekly shows and judging what "should make sense" and what "should happen" afterwards, when we have no clue of 1/10th of the storyline they're concocting. Not to say they'll deliver every time, or even most of the time.. but I just don't want to jump the gun all that much anymore. I.E saying what the perfect world would entail when the storyline's not even over. That's just me though, I know many feel comfortable doing what they're doing and I respect that.

September 6, 2011

Likewise, by that own merit, if Cena and Orton were in the storyline it would've soured long ago.

It's not that I disagree with you about his matches with Miz and Truth, but at the same time I wouldn't look at his Raw matches with a microscope. It's a weekly show so he'll be hit and miss at times, and clearly he has great chemistry with John Cena and made the best of it.

Also Mr. H's, just accepting the resign as COO stip was stupid, why would he, he has no need to.

Because he's confident in winning... and it was obviously the compromise. "I'll accept your stip if you accept mine"

When you see what reaction Cena or Randy Orton are getting in the ring, you cant blame the booking for the lack of interest in CM Punks matches, hes so overrated in the ring by the IWC its unreal.

Because Orton and Cena have been made ages ago.. Punk is being made right now. Well, rather that he's gotten made during his storyline with Cena, now it's his job to uphold his status and momentum.

I never expected Punk to stay consistently refreshing, the Steph jokes are getting a bit tiresome but I expected stuff like that. Those "pipebombs" can only go so far but hopefully he keeps it fresh, somehow.

Which ironically, it's probably a good thing they're hotshotting this angle. If they waited like previously said, who knows how much it could've dragged on the way we've seen it do. The IWC always wants the 'ultimate payoff' when there are other factors to consider.

September 6, 2011

WWE Network.. I guess it was a matter of time.

As for the angle, well maybe they have a set plan for NOC. Maybe it does look like hotshotting, but they have plenty to work with now and with Punk and HHH being promo kings, they'll make good use of it.

Going to Raw live next week, so I can't wait.

September 3, 2011

There's just too much suck on the SD team, and it makes Booker seem that much worse. I mean, Matthews is decent, but not enough to make Cole or Booker tolerable.

JBL was good, but his title reign felt too long, and to the point where it was just draaaagging. I think it would have been better if they chopped in half and had him pick another one up later on.

The fact that it dragged was what made the run special. Fans all over just tuning in to see him lose and he would grasp away with the win through incessant interferences. If it was chopped in half, it wouldn't have stood out all that much.

In the same vein I also appreciated the Age of Orton reign, when even a returning Jericho and a red-hot babyface in Jeff Hardy couldn't get the job done. Cherry on top, he ends up retaining at WrestleMania

September 2, 2011

Ziggler's good but he never says the poignant things that could make him stand out in his promos, nothing that could make you think to give it a second look through Youtube or anything. To me, he has all the needed skills down pat but it's just a matter of standing out and running with the ball.

That said, if he was in some sort of supergroup with Cena & al, he'd likely be second fiddle but I wouldn't be surprised if they used it to propel him anyway. They're certainly not hesitant in pushing the new talent today, you just have to be in the right place, right time(in terms of creative team's focus).

August 24, 2011

He wasn't that bad, well.. at least as a backstage interviewer. Wasn't super on commentary though, shouldn't have been kept on there that long.

August 19, 2011

Let's not forget however that Punk when he first came to the WWE was winning championships left and right and this Punk is coming off a period of irrelevance and his wins over Cena are hardly dominating and Cena wasn't built up like Batista and Punk as a character definitely hasn't shown anything different from the time he was losing to Rey Mysterio if you took the promos away..

It's a bit less black and white than "winning championships left and right". If anyone really remembers how Punk's ride went while he was on top, different views might crop up.

Cena was built up.. like Cena. You weigh in the aspects between their overness, this is as gratifying as it gets for him[Punk]. There is no fluke factor anywhere around him right now. Back then.. save for him winning midcard titles and the MITB twice, the rest was fairly drab and you figured the casual fans would yell "fluke, fluke" around him.

About the title, I agree, but again it's all about how it goes over time. If you look back months from today, and that after the Nash spat he went gunning again for the belt, things would make more sense. Even though a character can be deadly focused towards the title, it wouldn't be outlandish to have him focus on someone else who cost him, if certain aspects are weighing on his mind. You look at Punk's character, you see all he does - the pipebombs, the constant references, you see what he's about, and it'd be understandable to have someone like Nash strike home a bit more than anyone else. If someone like Miz or Ziggler cost him the title, things would be different.

As for the jacknife.. maybe again thats where perception differs when you see a big man capitalize on a guy who went through a 20-minute match, but hey.

August 19, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="VTial" data-cite="VTial" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Well if we're just throwing out theories, I think Nash not only seemed slower more so than usual but he lacked both the energy and his decent mic talk for the first time seem mumbled. It didn't hurt that the whole thing was confusing. Even I kind of lost it with the whole comeback of Punk stating why Nash has problems with Waffle houses. I thought the feud seemed straight forward at first but Nash out there on the ring alone with body guards protecting him, you have to admit that's not the usual way they build up feuds. For one, Nash is a big old man. Punk is a little guy at the top of his game. Nash had just power bombed Punk and now he's rambling about cellphone texts. Punk came out and now he has no problem with the championship belt. Kind of hard to pop over that. The feud killed the original feud even though this is supposed to be a continuation of it.</div></blockquote> Fixed. If I were Nash I would also be talking about cellphone texts and having a block of guards around me. All Nash could've done was cheap shot him. I think it's less that Punk has no problem with the belt and more that some old geezer who he thought his career was over comes and costs him the title, and with the whole authority deal.. plus, has to be mentioned Punk cashed in his briefcase in a similar situation. But once he's done with Nash i'm sure he'll go right back for the belt(or take that break he wanted).

August 19, 2011

Booker's "awwwwwww" when something catches momentum is priceless. I like him if only for that. He's crap upon the rest.

But better him than King. King is just not there no more and he needs to go.

August 18, 2011

Who says they have to wrestle... the storyline can go in ways where he wouldn't have to wrestle if he really couldn't. And even if they did, they won't play it off as a drawn-out one-on-one contest if Nash can't go.

ADR left with the title but in the back of most viewers' minds, they can't see Punk as a scrub anymore. He went over Cena twice in a row on PPV, in two back-to-back heavily built storylines.

August 18, 2011

Maybe not, but they've probably kept note of his cameo at the Rumble and must imagine he's "somebody important". Maybe that's all they need.

August 18, 2011

I agree, Nash is a fresh character and this storyline will put more attention on Punk since it toys around the authority figure storyline(if things do come together like some predict).

Punk would just lose against ADR, and what does he have to say about him anyway? Involve him with veterans like Nash and H and that's where the pipebombs are gonna drop

Edit: I really couldn't manage out some of those little guys. Some among which I do recognize easily are a tad funny too.

August 16, 2011

Believe it or not, I'm actually starting to agree with Arrows on one aspect. Cena in my mind is slowly starting to turn into a Broken Aesop. Watching the ending, I don't know, I know there's the whole "honor" thing about it but I still found it a flimsy reason why Cena was really targeting Del Rio. Coming across as just being power-hungry for the belt.

August 16, 2011

Whether someone has the look or not is completely subjective to your own POV. Ironically, it's people like HHH who used to sound like that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Anaconda_Vise.jpg/300px-Anaconda_Vise.jpg

It's sad that they don't sell the hype on Punk doing the GTS on Cena more. That's the equivalent of Cena doing the FU on the Big Show. Punk doing that was more of a statement that he is what he claims he is and that is that he's not just a better wrestler than Cena but that he is also the best. He can do something FU like on Cena who is much bigger than him and still do it several times. Commentating really has gone downhill. I could imagine Monsoon being all over that.

Cena isn't THAT big... and Punk's done the GTS on much heavier than Cena. JBL, Kane for starters.

August 11, 2011

Again, everyone said the same thing about Miz and RVD. I'm at least willing to give it a few months before I guess if he's gonna lose it, see how much they build him up until then.

The top brass is in dire need of babyfaces, and I guess things have slightly redeemed themselves by now with the Sheamus face turn, and Punk possibly going down the face road, but there are still so many heel prospects among the upper echelon that need to be treated. A babyface just had to win the MITB.

August 11, 2011

Agreed but then again, New Nexus were complete scrubs. Didn't bother me in the slightest how they were booked against Orton.

I'd also like to add Dolph Ziggler to my earlier list of recent championship reigns that lasted less than a week.

So again, why not have Sheamus give it up to Cena in a rematch the next night if he wasn't supposed to be champion?

Because a retcon of this sort would've been way too obvious, and they're trying to make new stars which would've been completely counter-productive to just slap the belt back on the main man a night later.

Not that I believe this botched ending theory anyway. Somehow I think it was legit. If it weren't, it would've probably blown up all over the Internet in reports.

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Posts posted by Tha Black Phenom