PeterHilton
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Posts posted by PeterHilton
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Stennick's post is what I was getting at. Also...
I've been working for 16 years now. I have done everything from short line cook to bus boy, to pizza boy before I got a degree. I own my own business with upwards of around 3 to 4 hundred clients and around 35 employees.If you ever need sales staff in CA let me know. I feel like it'd be easy to work for someone that I generally agree with this much.
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Yeah...I honestly looked at the trades and thought 'makes sense to me'
If they'd somehow managed to keep Pietrus I would've thought Orlando had gotten away with robbery.
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Hilton have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Most of the time those CEO's and such admit that their job is easy but the labor jobs are harder.
I work for one of the companies that was on Season 1 of Undercover Boss and I'm telling you: our COO said that because he knew it was the right thing to say and it was the right attitude to have.
Everybody appreciates the people who do hard, manual, menial jobs. It's a tough living. But does that really mean that their job is 'tougher' than CEOs who have to make decisions regarding marketing and finance and sales that affect the lives of everyone in the company?
So the guy pushing the bins for the waste company I work for has a 'harder' job than the Company President negotiating a billion dollar deal with Wal-Mart ...a deal that - if it falls through - could result in cutting several thousand jobs across the country?
It's just a ridiculously naive stance to take.
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Everyone who works in entertainment is overpaid. The system is kinda backwords.
If you look at a factory the floor workers usually work the hardest and are paid the least. Keep going up the ladder and the work is easier but the pay is more. I dunno just my opinion.
Yeah...that's all pretty much completely wrong.
I'm really sick of the 'athletes/entertainers/actors/musicians' are overpaid diatribe. I get it. We all want to live in a world where preschool teachers are millionaires and corporate attorneys are shot and the rest of us are paid in rainbows and butterfly kisses but that's not the real world.
People in the entertainment industry are paid what they are paid because THEY are the ones generating the revenue. They have special talents that the rest of us have decided we are willing to pay to see. If you are one of these people that really think actors/athletes/singers/whatever are overpaid take a good look at YOUR job and say "how easy would it be for my company to replace me and my specific set of skills?" and then look at those "overpaid" stars and ask the same question.
As for 'the works is easier but the pay is harder' deal...that's pretty insulting to the people who went out and got those corporate jobs because more often than not it required years of continued education and lots of time climbing up through the ranks. Just because a job requires more lifting doesn't mean it's "harder."
Pete, you're totally on the money here. TNA is taking a bite at both ends. "Oh, we can't afford to pay your insurance, travel, etc. costs because we're the little guy!" At the same time, "oh, we reserve the right to get a cut in any side deal you try to make because we're the big guy that gave you exposure!" So on the one hand, they're acting like the little indy that can't pay the bills, but at the same time they're limiting "independent contractors" right to work by inserting themselves into the equation as the one responsible for a worker's recognition. So as a worker, not only do you make far less than an "employee" without the associated costs to TNA, you also don't get the freedom that's supposed to come with being an independent contractor. The worst of both worlds! It's ethically abhorrent and borderline legal, but it's nothing particularly new in the industry.As far as the argument that wrestlers should be paid like the dirty carnies they are (which is the argument being made, apparently), it still doesn't gibe with the fact that TNA is keeping those carnies from working other carnivals without getting a cut of the worker's paycheck. This inflates the dirty carny's asking price and makes it a bad economic decision to bring in Chris Sabin for my indy fed when Sean Waltman is $400 cheaper and it only costs him $50 to get him trashed. So not only should we pay these people like carnies, we should make them unmarketable to other carnivals!
Thank you and yes...that seems to be the argument.
Does TNA underpay it's talent? I think the answer is "Yes" for the most part.
I think it's fair to say they aren't the ONLY company that takes advantage of the 'independent contractor' deal, but their booking fee deal and their policy on medical expenses seems worse than normal imo.
Beyond that, 'taking a bite at both ends' is a good way to explain it: "Hey, of course we deserve a cut of your fee ..the only reason you're a name is because you're on TV every week. What? You want more money? Listen, just because we're on TV every week doesn't mean we can afford to pay all these huge salaries"
I realize that it would be dumb to pay the openers and midcarders huge salaries, but they could be paid a little better. And the women - who actually are decent draws -probably should be getting a lot more (Kong saying she was getting $400 an appearance was laughable).
I still think an indy worker would be an idiot to turn down TNA because of the exposure but it's a shame that that seems to be the ONLY thing you're getting ..the exposure.
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Ok that is something different as that is industry wide and I agree with you.
Also who is to say that that is not just their base salary? And they don't get paid more for the house shows and get a slice of merchandise etc. Same as the E system. That is also the problem with becoming employees according to Foley. Kiss your royalties goodbye.
Well no one knows for sure, but a PPA is generally just that: Pay Per Appearance . So they probably get the money for that house show run, but does it really off-set the cost of getting there?
These are just estimates, but let's take a look at the upcoming tour schedule:
http://eventful.com/performers/tna-wrestling-/P0-001-000010503-0/events
The rumors are that the midcard workers make around $600 an appearance. Let's up it to $700.
So let's say they work the 14th, 15th, 16th and are due $2100 in appearance fees. Let's say they are smart enough to have moved to Orlando for the convenience of being close to the tapings. They have the cost of the flight to PA (roughly $200 at minimum) the cost of renting a car to go from show to show ($200 would be cheap) fuel for the trip (which would be 250 miles just going from show to show, let's say $100 total), room and board (probably another $300) and food (they eat at fast food joints, so not more than $50 most likely).
Minus taxes..which in the US for independent contractors means you take out at least a third of the total.
And Mick Foley might be concerned about merchandise royalties, but let's be real: How many t-shirts are TNA midcarders really selling?
So what's that leave you with...a little over $500 for a week's work? IF you make $700 an appearance (which it's been verified that quite a few workers aren't)?
I mean..I suppose if the only comparison you have is minimum wage/entry level positions..then that sounds OK. But for anyone else who has any kind of decent job (especially one in the entertainment/media field where they see what 'talent' is paid) that's crazy low.
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Maybe you missed the part of being the FAULT of the company...IE if the ring collapses then TNA should pay. If Hardy decides to dive off a ladder and snaps his neck...Hardy's fault really...(Unless TNA makes him do it)
Actually, no.
And this goes back to what I was saying about the wrestling industry's loose interpretation of the 'independent contractor' status.
If you work for a company and hurt yourself while in the performance of your duties (i.e. wrestling) then the company would be held responsible for paying for your medical costs, whether it's through direct payment or worker's comp liability. They don't have to be at all negligent. You just have to be performing your normal work duties. (although negligence definitely means that company will be paying significantly more)
Now, because wrestlers aren't 'employees' TNA isn't legally responsible. But - going back to that article - the WWF/E, WCW, ECW always pay/paid for surgeries from injuries related to being in the ring and for a company the size of TNA that should be standard form.
But -again - your example is moot because companies are obligated to pay for medical costs of any employee who gets injured while on the job, regardless of negligence. The only reason TNA gets away with it is because the wrestlers aren't employees.
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I work for a Global Steel company and they do not pay for any surgery I need willy nilly. Unless I am hurt at work due to some fault of the company guess whose pocket it is coming out of?
Ummmmm....not to point out the obvious....but an athletic performer who injures himself while performing is 'at work' and the liability does actually belong to the company holding the event.
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Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.
You can't get ten thousand people to go pay $80 a ticket to watch the average person to do their job.
Welcome to the entertainment industry.
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Yeah I have my reservations. The only thing TNA could be guilty of is that the office makes mistakes as it pertains to letting workers do indy dates. Plus I agree with Lord Jaguar.
Also..I read through that article. And you may not like the rag-sheets but there were also first person interviews and well documented examples given at for every point that was brought up.
TNA doesn't pay for medical procedures resulting from injuries. They don't. And you can defend every other decision TNA makes in terms of who they pay and why, but I think it's totally unethical for a 'national' company to force it's workers to pay out of pocket their surgery costs.
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And now compare the total income of those leagues + teams divided by players with TNA's estimated total income and divide it by workers.
Essentially those TNA employees are exclusive talent but they can get subcontracted where a part of the fee goes to TNA. Nothing weird with this.
Hyde, that's not the point. Obviously TNA's minimum shouldn't be 500 K. But 35 K a year in an industry where you have no insurance and have to cover all your travel and housing expenses is garbage. And that's not counting taxes.
So..let's say that's less than 3 K a month...that means that a lot of their workers (say, the ones that moved to Orlando to be closer to the TV tapings) are probably losing money on their house show swings.
And i do think it's 'weird' that a piece of the action is going to TNA. Because - to me - that kind of arrangement makes you an employee which would guarantee certain things in terms of liability that TNA doesn't provide. This is just an 'imo' because the WWE does the same thing with it's interpretation of 'independent contractor' so it's probably not changing any time soon.
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Could it be that the talent are just living above there means? I mean 35 grand a year to just work 3-4 days a month. Some people work 50 hours a week and wont even make that.
I remember reading a interview a while back with a Footballer that plays for LA galaxy that while David Beckham is making all the money. He is only on 19,000 a year as a full time footballer and is still able to make a living from it
OK I don't know what your personal idea of 'making a living is' but 19 K isn't even what someone would make off of a year on unemployment here in CA. I think that's a bad example.
The TNA "underpaid" argument... There is evidence out there that TNA don't pay certain members on their roster enough to make a living (Taylor Wilde's eBay exploits and Sunglasses job spring to mind) but I guess the counter-argument is "Do they have a responsibility to?" It's a wrestling gig, where you work a couple of days a month. Perhaps you shouldn't expect to earn a full-time wage unless you're an honest-to-goodness star.
This is a fair argument except that TNA does this..
TNA charging for 'their' guys and gals to work other indy dates is...I think it's completely unfair that a wrestling company treats it's employees like 'independent contractors,' pays them less based on their place on the card, then includes provisions in their contract that essentially makes them exclusive employees
I hate to say it but I believe TNA may be "right" on some of this. Wrestling was never meant to be a huge pay off, in fact many wrestlers of the earlier eras held other jobs outside of the buisness. The problem it seems is that WWE and WCW has spoiled the "average" wrestler into thinking they somehow deserve to be set for life.This is a ridiculous argument. Who cares what happened in 'earlier eras'? This would be like an NFL owner today saying "well I'm not going to pay my players these salaries. After all, Sammy Baugh had to sell insurance in the offseason."
Increased salary expectations is a part of the modernization of the industry. it's not 'being spoiled.' It's called 'wanting to earn a fair wage in an industry where your health is at risk.'
In other professional sports the guys riding the bench and just filling a spot do not have multi million dollar deals.2010 League Minimum Salary (roughly) for..
MLB: $390 K
NFL: $310 K
NBA: $408 K
NHL: $500 K
Even the guys on the bench make a living.
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They got rid of two whiny crybabies who don't play defense and Vince specifically is a guy with a reputation for folding if you play him tough; didn't Howard give an interview just this past week saying he was tired of having to try to block shots when his defenders on the wing just let guys blow past them?
And then ESPN showed examples of Lewis and Carter letting guys repeatedly drive around them. Addition by subtraction imo
JRich is gritty guy. If Hedo has anything left in the tank this trade is a win.
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Sure, that Christmas Monster thing was a horrible gimmick... but in Lawler's defense, I've seen both WWF and WCW do worse (like the Mantaur and the Yeti).
Lawler and Memphis did it more often ..the Christmas Monster thing isn't even the weirdest gimmick Lawler booked himself against.
And yes, WWF and WCW have done worse, but that monster thing is just one example of the really really poor and outdated booking that hurt the Memphis territory.
He's not the worst booker ever by any means...just one of the few who never seems to be mentioned whenever that 'worst booker' conversation comes up.
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Pointless if you mean that it advanced the story, made people watch Raw every week, and entertained people along the way...I'm not sure how this angle was any more pointless than anything else the WWE (or any other wrestling company/TV show/entertainment venue) does, to be honest...like I've said all along, the only mistake the WWE made here was having Cena give such an emotional, seemingly heart felt, good bye the night after he was fired. That now seems very hallow and insincere, which is bad for a face...but take away that speech, and this storyline's been more or less flawless so far.
I don't know about 'flawless' ...
They could have left Cena at home at least a couple of weeks; it would've built anticipation in the audience and let Nexus get some heat. It would've been more effective from a storytelling standpoint (and that speech wouldn't have seemed so hollow after the fact).
i'm sure your response will be that they can't leave Cena off TV because it hurts ratings. But ratings are down this time of year anyway and even with Cena Raw has been hovering in the mid 3's.
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I've seen Lawler wrestle a few different people in the last 20 years. He hasn't been terrible. He knows how to work a match and is old now. Still watchable matches I think.
Maybe I am wrong on him being good in the territory days. I admitted that I hadn't seen a lot. I know most of his 150 reigns weren't all from his own promotion though too. So others at the time saw something in him to put a strap on him.
Promoters back then would exchange favors. Lawler ran a promotion. So it was easy for him to go to a territory and get a big push and maybe a title run in exchange for giving one of their workers similar treatment.
Also..the fact that he ran a promotion meant he ALWAYS had some name value, which of course meant he'd be somewhat of a name even when he traveled. Sort of self-fulfilling hype.
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Probably right. WHich is sad. Which is why i get on here and harass poor JNL when he posts how great Lawler is...the fans who remember first hand have an obligation to tell younger fans the truth and not 'the truth as the WWE tells it.'
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Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.
...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?
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Every wrestler from the territory days was hard on young wrestlers. They all held them down. Every promotor pushed their family members down our throats too. Those aren't good arguments as to why not to think a guy was a good wrestler or whatever when it comes to the territory days.
you're taking one comment and acting as if that's my whole argument.
He was bad in the ring. BAD. If you want to talk about why he's not a 'good wrestler' you can start right there.
He ran the same feud so often that he never created any new fans and the traditional fans stopped coming to his show. He never created any new stars (unless they were related to him) while somehow driving his established stars away. And yes, other people did the same thing and those people - Gagne and the Von Erichs for instance - are generally laughed at now and seen as examples of 'promoters who failed because they couldn't keep up with the
times.'
From the books I have read Memphis sounded like it was a hotbed of good wrestling. I don't know a lot about how many promotions were run there or anything.OK..but it's not like this is just MY opinion..
I'm going to have to say I agree with PH more then anything. I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.I was never inspired to watch Memphis though... although I watched wrestling in general, so I did watch it. It was one of those "there is no other wrestling show on at the moment" type things though.
Yeah Memphis was some of the worst crap I ever saw wrestling wise. I mean they always tried to push the likes of Eric Embry and Bill Dundee. Nothing against those two and I know Memphis could not afford to keep their superstars around for any length of time. However, one tended to grow tired of Eric Embry vs. Jerry Lawler for the 200th week in a row.Again...the guys who did the wrestlecrap site devoted an entire chapter in their book to Memphis. The promotion Lawler ran was awful.
Lawler has always been entertaining when I have seen him. 90s his feud with Bret Hart was good and I thought he wrestled a few times during that.So you're not that informed, never really saw the company we're talking about, have limited knowledge of what Lawler was like in his prime, and your only point of comparison is a short feud he had where he worked matches against one of the best in-ring workers ever?
But you're insisting he's 'great' based on ....?
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Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.
That's not a bad point. He's like Jeff Jarrett in that sense. The fact he killed off his own territory is what bugged me most about Lawler though.
I'm not sure about Hotstuff, but Sullivan gets a bad rep for the Dungeon of Doom versus Hogan, his issues with Benoit and the Radicalz leaving WCW.Totally true. But Sullivan's 'cult leader' deal and the 'hardcore' feuds Gilbert created were really innovative imo. Sullivan - along with guys like Billy Graham and Adrian Street - were ahead of their time in taking wrestling from being a carny thing to being live-action drama.
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Can't say I have seen a lot of his work because I haven't. I have read about him online (obviously not the most credible sources 100% of the time). Hasn't he had something like 150 title reigns of some sort in his career? That is a lot. Not all were for his promotion either.
LOL. Then why did you talk about how 'he really was great.'
He was the head of a promotion. Of course he had a lot of title reigns. Lawler is an example of the WWE propaganda machine working in reverse of the way they operate with guys like Bruno.
He was a fairly bad wrestler, a fairly ordinary promoter, and a questionable person (based on the amount of times he was accused of things like hitting women and statutory rape) who got famous because of a publicity stunt with Andy Kaufman. And he was a complete jerk to younger workers.
Verne Gagne was ten times the wrestler and businessman Lawler was but Verne had too much pride to go work for Vince (and waaaaay too much pride to sit on screen and yell 'PUPPIES!'
I know this is overkill,but it makes me nuts that of all the stars of the territory era to leave their mark, it's this yahoo.
Nobody remembers Kevin Sullivan or Eddie Gilbert, but bring up Lawler and the WWE has convinced fans he was some genius.
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Lawler was a great wrestler in his time. He isn't Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Andre the Giant but he really was great.
I'm going to go ahead and re-post what i said after this happened originally.
Lawler was a junk wrestler. He booked his own territory and -SURPRISE - stuck himself at the top for year and years and YEARS past the time anyone cared and basically killed off his own territory. And then he stuck his son at the top of the card, even when it was obvious he wasn't over with the fans.
He insulted the 'new generation of stars' repeatedly and specifically ECW despite the fact Memphis was generally garbage wrestling and crappy joke gimmicks (seriously, wrestlecrap.com is absolutely loaded with entries from Memphis). He called out guys like Taz for being too small when Lawler himself was *maybe* 5'8" -5'9"
If you take out the Andy Kaufman stuff, Jerry Lawler didn't do one significant thing in his entire wrestling career outside of the territory he ran. The only reason he's famous now is for acting like a perverted 16 year old and for having the good sense to kiss Vince's a** for a job when Verne Gagne and Jerry Jarrett refused.
Take him out of Memphis and he's the most overrated "star" of the modern wrestling era.
If you're a 'work rate' guy, Lawler was a garbage wrestler whose matches were slightly more interesting than the 'punch-kick' matches of the 80s WWF.
If you're an SE guy, Lawler was above average on the mic, but he booked himself in the same feud for a decade.
Take away his run on Raw as JR's comic relief, and fans today would have no idea who he is.
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There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.
Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.
I disagree. Because TV was different back then. They would actually allow Flair on TV against a true jobber which would never happen today.
Someone like the Brooklyn Brawler would come out in a comedy bit, but the final segment on a live edition of Raw? It would never happen. Miz beating a guy like Lawler (who's not a draw and would never headline a PPV) serves the same purpose (showing us what 'a cheater' The Miz is) without wasting a match against a headliner like Orton or Cena. It gets the character over and -hopefully - creates heat for The Miz because people are going t think the same thing you did: man what a cheap win I can't wait to see him get what he deserves.
You're picking nits.
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To be fair, this...
I guarantee to you anybody that says TNA is trash is trolling because 100% guaranteed they'll DVR Gen Me vs MCMG matches and AJ vs Angle matches etc....selective viewing....and how anybody can watch those matches and still honestly say TNA is trash well they are simply trolling....or are dumb WWE fanboys completely ignorant of everything that isn't branded WWE...is like 99.9% of thommohawk comments which is why most of the time no one debates him. ALso..
If they really want to cut the wage bill they should let go of Hogan, he is serving no purpose - he hasn't brought the ratings in and he's not entertaining. At least Bischoff serves some purpose behind the scenes and is a good heel...he clearly doesn't understand some of the business aspects of rasslin' which is why he refers to anyone who doesn't lose their mind for everything TNA does as 'WWEtard'
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Someone posted once about it before the celebrating issue started so in an effort to change topics...
What do you think should happen to the Jets coach that tripped the player?
I know this may sound "old man and crotchety" but I actually DO care about the players safety and I don't see how you can let such a low blow move just slide with like a $50K fine on something that wasn't even related to on field play.
Haha...having common sense isn't 'old and crotchety'. Saying that end zone dances is endemic of society's problems is 'old and crotchety.'
He should be fired. I don't think that's at all harsh. There's just no justification for his actions and his position gives him no leverage. He should've been canned that night.
I dont mind end zone dances but Deshaun Jackson has proven time and time again that he is a fool. It was funny when he was showboating and gave up the ball prior to getting to the end zone and having the other team recover. He did something similiar in a high school all american game where he did a flip before getting to the end zone and lost the ball. Great talent with much to learn.That's just it. Unless he does something blatantly illegal, his talent outweighs his shenanigans on the field.
The Official TNA / Impact / GFW Discussion Thread
in The Dog Pound
Posted
Agree with everything you wrote and I think UFL is a good comparison. If a league with that many players and so few viewers can afford a $ 35 K baseline, then it's a pretty good example of how low 35 K really is.
And last I checked, when those teams go on the road, they don't go ask their players to provide their own travel and boarding plans.
I think the mentality is also based on the fact they know that there's no option out there. Their hottest acts in recent years have been The Beautiful People and Kong. But they knew that neither was going to find 'better treatment/more money' in the WWE.
Kong..? in the E....? not happening.
And TBP probably would've worked, especially the Rayne/Sky version. But the writers obviously saw the act, copied it, and gave it to LayCool...so now that's not happening.
They are taking advantage of the fact that females in the industry have limited options.
Insurance carriers won't touch wrestlers. So they can't offer true 'medical benefits' . However...
This is what I've been saying.