Abortion

[AfRoMaN36]

GDS has often been praised for their abillity to carry on debates without getting personal, but now I'm planning on a debate on one of the most controversial subjects out their to disscuss. For now I will remain neutral for now because I'm getting sleepy and I dont want to get in the middle of the debate myself just before I go to sleep. But their is just one question.... Are you Pro Choice or Anti-Abortion....? and why? Simple question. We dont need to get into a religious war over this, because nobody wins their. Lets try and keep all debating at a respectable level and try to not take pot shots at anyone that disagrees with you. This one is flammable, so lets be careful.... I'm going to give you a few thoughts from both sides of the argument to get us started. Anti: * You're killing an unborn fetus which is like a baby (What they say, not my opinion exacly) * God does not want one to play god. * Various long term health issues for the mother Pro: * A raped mother wouldnt be forced to have a child by the rapist * An answer for the family that just cannot take anymore expenses * if removed early enough, the embryo will not feel a thing as it hasnt developed into a fetus yet. I can think of much more, but Im going to bed right now. Hope you guys remain respectful and I'll catch you in a few hours.

[HughBatey4]

Pro-choice, I'm pro-choice on just about everything. Gay marriage? If they choose to. Abortion? If they choose to. Adoption? If they choose to. People SHOULD have the right to do those things.

[Remianen]

I'm pro choice because I'm MALE. I don't have to go through the hormonal and physical changes required during a human gestation period. Therefore, it's not my place to tell a woman what she should, can, or can't do with her body. Even if I was the one who planted the seed, it's still not my place to be the final arbiter because my part was easy (and probably quite enjoyable), her part is a little more involved though and it won't always be so enjoyable ('specially at the end. OUCH!). I was always taught that there is one judge and He aint me. Therefore, if abortion is murder, let that woman take it up with her God/higher power/the universe.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;219501]GDS has often been praised for their abillity to carry on debates without getting personal, but now I'm planning on a debate on one of the most controversial subjects out their to disscuss.[/QUOTE] Have you been visiting some alternate reality version of the GDS boards? I have no idea where you came up with the post quoted above, but pretty much every controversial topic degenerates into a pesonal flame war on here, I should know, I'm the one who usually has to deal with the fall out. For the record, there's no "let's wait and see how this plays out" - first sign of a growing flame war in this thread, it gets closed. I've got much better things to do that play baby sitter because somebody's feelings got hurt.

[Jasx12]

^The man speaks the truth. I'm pro-choice. Honestly I have bigger things to worry about than if knocked up woman A wants to kill some little creature dwelling inside her stomach. Don't care for 50% of the big issues out there (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) because they don't concern me, and I have no right telling others how to live.

[panix04]

Im pro-choice, i think a woman has the rite to choose wether or not she uses, or gets her man to use, contraception and if she doesn't then its hard cheese! :D That being said i think its a grey area, i don't think that a woman who was raped and impregnated should be forced to give birth, i think that would be seven shades of wrong. I think it is far to easy for careless people to get baby's aborted just because they were not sensible enough to use contraception. A strong opinion i know and perhaps its unfair to expect girls of 16-18 to be sensible and rational enough to make good decisions regarding sexual relationships, but i know when i was 17 i was always really careful about stuff like that. I don't want kids yet, so we take steps to avoid them, it doesn't take a lot to pull on a condom or to take a tiny little pill 28 days a month! That having been said i don't want to come accorss as bashing anybody who has slipped up, i realise that no form of contraception is 100% reliable.

[Jorge_JBR]

I am totally pro-choice. One, like a few others have said, I'm male. That's all the reason I need. Personal, I'm against it. However, I have no right to tell anyone what to do. Goes fo gay marriage too. Besides, if you're pro-life, you haven't knocked up a stripper yet.

[WrestleManiac]

I'm in the middle somewhere. I can see both side of the argument. I lean more towards anti-abortion - maybe because I'm a father - and if this problem came up in my own life I would lean towards this stance. But on the flip side I think the choice should be there for women in a single situation. If they are in a relationship and the pregnancy is not the result of some drunken one night stand or rape then the decision should be made as a couple. I also think women should be given all the facts so they can make an informed decision. I've known women who seem to think of an abortion as a kind of contraception; they think it's the easy way out - until they go through with it. My mate's ex-wife even boasted about her three abortions as a badge of honour - but she was weird, anyway, and had a bizzare rape fetish! But, as long as the facts are presented to the woman I think she deserves the choice. But, in my own life - being aware of the facts - I'm anti-abortion. If you don't want a baby a condom is cheaper and less painful (emotionaly and physically).

[keefmoon]

Pro-choice. In my opinion the mother should be allowed to choose, it is her life, body and mind that will change from it, so she and only she should have the choice, maybe with the fathers help if she so wishes. My best mate's bird had an abortion a few years ago, and while it was upsetting both agreed it was the best thing to do. *crosses fingers this topic doesn't turn into flaming as so far it's been mature and civil*

[Moe Hunter]

Oddly enough, my best friend just confided to me that she might be pregnant (hasn't taken a test yet, her mother's been getting sympathy pains). We're both "agnostic" in that we believe there could well be something going on, we just haven't decided to label that thing with a strict set of rules. She is definitely not going to keep the child if she is pregnant, and so she sees her two options as abortion or adoption. Personally I'm all for abortion among the right circumstances. Below is a snippet from a column I wrote for the Wanganui Chronicle in 2005 on the subject... [QUOTE]So the abortion debate is raging again, and it’s always the same story. Protesters say “abortion is murder”, everyone else says “abortion is upheld by freedom of choice”. The idea has been brought up recently that abortion is no more than a means to practise discrimination. An effort to lessen the number of poor, black or mentally deficient people in the world. I say that’s BS. For the most part, abortions are practised when there is no better alternative in the eyes of those involved. Is it the wish of anti-abortionists to see more teenagers trying to raise kids who will likely make the same ‘mistakes’ as their parents? Are they lining up at adoption centres waiting for the next unwanted baby to come their way? Do these protesters and supporters alike sponsor the poor, black and mentally deficient children through WorldVision and other such programs? If they’re not directly offering positive alternatives, they have no place trying to remove others’ rights. I also have to wonder – are all these ‘anti-murder’ campaigners vegetarian or vegan? Surely, they must remember Meat is Murder just as much as Abortion is.[/QUOTE]

[Anubis]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;219509]Have you been visiting some alternate reality version of the GDS boards? I have no idea where you came up with the post quoted above, but pretty much every controversial topic degenerates into a pesonal flame war on here, I should know, I'm the one who usually has to deal with the fall out. For the record, there's no "let's wait and see how this plays out" - first sign of a growing flame war in this thread, it gets closed. I've got much better things to do that play baby sitter because somebody's feelings got hurt.[/QUOTE] QFT Though I'm surprised to see so many saying pro-choice given how conservative this place is. I'm not pro-choice or pro-life. I think there should be some solid rules based on circumstance. Heck, I think every case about anything should be judged on circumstance. 1. If a woman gets pregnant out of stupidity due to not using protection or the pill or something, abortion should not be allowed. You reap what you sow, and if you're that stupid, you deserve to get punished for it. 2. If a woman gets pregnant as a result of rape or incest, it should be allowed. In the case of rape, forcing the pregnancy is added torture for the victim. In the case of incest, it's simply a scientifically sound decision. 3. If the health of the mother is at risk, abortion should be allowed regardless of how far along the pregnancy is. 4. Partial-birth abortion should [i]never[/i] be allowed unless #3 (the health of the mother is at risk) applies to the situation. 5. If there is no way for a potential mother to be able to handle the expenses, abortion should be allowed unless #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity) applies to the situation. 6. As an alternative to #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity), abortion could be allowed in such cases, but only if the woman gets a free hysterectomy (sp?) to go with it to prevent any future stupidity. 7. Insurance companies and government aid should be forced to pay for abortion and other such things when appropriate. This also includes birth control pills and the like. 8. Related to #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity), if a woman gets pregnant by sheer accident, despite using protection or the pill, abortion should be allowed. I think that covers pretty much any possible situation. So yeah, I'm neither, I have a very complex and detailed stance on the issue. Either way, I do not believe that an embryo constitutes life (like those against embryonic stem cell research want to claim), [i]but I do support charging a criminal with murder if their actions against a mother who wants to have the child causes a miscarriage[/i].

[TCP1]

Pro choice. We have rights to use all options available to us in any given situation. Nobody has the right to tell someone else how to live as long as what they're doing isn't illegal. Panix, I'm a little surprised at your answer, always figured you for a flag-waving leftie like myself.

[TCP1]

[QUOTE=Anubis;219567]QFT Though I'm surprised to see so many saying pro-choice given how conservative this place is. I'm not pro-choice or pro-life. I think there should be some solid rules based on circumstance. Heck, I think every case about anything should be judged on circumstance. 1. If a woman gets pregnant out of stupidity due to not using protection or the pill or something, abortion should not be allowed. You reap what you sow, and if you're that stupid, you deserve to get punished for it. 2. If a woman gets pregnant as a result of rape or incest, it should be allowed. In the case of rape, forcing the pregnancy is added torture for the victim. In the case of incest, it's simply a scientifically sound decision. 3. If the health of the mother is at risk, abortion should be allowed regardless of how far along the pregnancy is. 4. Partial-birth abortion should [i]never[/i] be allowed unless #3 (the health of the mother is at risk) applies to the situation. 5. If there is no way for a potential mother to be able to handle the expenses, abortion should be allowed unless #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity) applies to the situation. 6. As an alternative to #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity), abortion could be allowed in such cases, but only if the woman gets a free hysterectomy (sp?) to go with it to prevent any future stupidity. 7. Insurance companies and government aid should be forced to pay for abortion and other such things when appropriate. This also includes birth control pills and the like. 8. Related to #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity), if a woman gets pregnant by sheer accident, despite using protection or the pill, abortion should be allowed. I think that covers pretty much any possible situation. So yeah, I'm neither, I have a very complex and detailed stance on the issue. Either way, I do not believe that an embryo constitutes life (like those against embryonic stem cell research want to claim), [i]but I do support charging a criminal with murder if their actions against a mother who wants to have the child causes a miscarriage[/i].[/QUOTE] Interesting but too convoluted, plus it would involve you branding some people stupid, which is just mean. Surely you should just be pro-choice seeing as you almost allow abortion in every circumstance. As for the attitude on the board, I don't think it's conservative here at all. In fact I'd say it was a fairly liberal-leaning place.

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=Anubis;219567]QFT Though I'm surprised to see so many saying pro-choice given how conservative this place is. I'm not pro-choice or pro-life. I think there should be some solid rules based on circumstance. Heck, I think every case about anything should be judged on circumstance. 1. If a woman gets pregnant out of stupidity due to not using protection or the pill or something, abortion should not be allowed. You reap what you sow, and if you're that stupid, you deserve to get punished for it. 2. If a woman gets pregnant as a result of rape or incest, it should be allowed. In the case of rape, forcing the pregnancy is added torture for the victim. In the case of incest, it's simply a scientifically sound decision. 3. If the health of the mother is at risk, abortion should be allowed regardless of how far along the pregnancy is. 4. Partial-birth abortion should [i]never[/i] be allowed unless #3 (the health of the mother is at risk) applies to the situation. 5. If there is no way for a potential mother to be able to handle the expenses, abortion should be allowed unless #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity) applies to the situation. 6. As an alternative to #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity), abortion could be allowed in such cases, but only if the woman gets a free hysterectomy (sp?) to go with it to prevent any future stupidity. 7. Insurance companies and government aid should be forced to pay for abortion and other such things when appropriate. This also includes birth control pills and the like. 8. Related to #1 (gets pregnant out of stupidity), if a woman gets pregnant by sheer accident, despite using protection or the pill, abortion should be allowed. I think that covers pretty much any possible situation. So yeah, I'm neither, I have a very complex and detailed stance on the issue. Either way, I do not believe that an embryo constitutes life (like those against embryonic stem cell research want to claim), [i]but I do support charging a criminal with murder if their actions against a mother who wants to have the child causes a miscarriage[/i].[/QUOTE] I get what you're saying, and I'm not flaming in any way here, but those rules would be pretty tough to enforce. For example, how could an abortion clinic tell if the female in question had used a condom or not? My mate wore one when his girlfriend got impregnated, but every now and again a swimmer gets through. However, the clinic would have had no idea whether this was the case or whether they'd just not bothered to wear one. Nevertheless, I do see your point. Just think some things are hard to find out either way.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=TCP1;219574] Panix, I'm a little surprised at your answer, always figured you for a flag-waving leftie like myself.[/QUOTE] To be honest i never really considered my opinions from a political standpoint! I guess its something i kinda feel pasionate about because my mum was going to adopt me when i was born. Thankfully she changed her mind, but i just think adoption is a far more humane way to deal with unwanted pregnancy then abortion, i agree that abortion has its place depending on the circumstance's but people using abortion as a a way to cover up there mistake's i think is wrong, i guess in that respect im kinda old fashioned, but then its easy for me to take that standpoint as i have never been known for promescuity and being in a relationship for 8 years i guess that had a baby came along at any time we definatly would have kept it!

[AfRoMaN36]

Im pro choice myself. I feel that in my nation (America) people shouldnt be forced to have a child and go poor because they cannot afford caring for the kid. And I also think its unfair for the child that he needs to grow up in some terrible environment of being an unwanted child. Many people would respond.... "So adopt him, dont abort him." But if you go to these adoption homes. Most of these kids never get picked up. How do these kids phyce hold up when you've got Madonna and Angelina picking up kids from Africa, while years pass by, children change, and some die along the way. You need to sleep with hundreds of other crying children and its ALL you will hear for years to come. And then you are tossed out at 18 to live a life that wont be a stable one... Maybe adoption would be the way to go.... I dont know, Im just a male. I dont nessesarily need to go through the torture of child birth. I just feel that it should always be an option. I probably will never have my girlfriend do this, but it shouldnt be taken away just because Rebublicans dont like it. Oh and to Adam.... well, yeah it happens sometimes. (The flame wars) but we usually hold up better than most forums. Probably why I come here.

[panix04]

but if they can't afford to raise a child, why get pregnant in the 1st place? Just a thought, although it has always struck me as kind of ironic, condoms are free at the family planning clinic!

[WrestleManiac]

If you don't want the kid and don't fancy abortion or adoption, you could do things the Roman way and just leave the rugrats in the nearest sewer, or the Victorian way and sell them to a company to use as they please. Though, I'm not sure the law would take too kindly and you could find yourself a social pariah. Or could of worn a rubber in the first place. I never understood how a woman could get pregnant by accident. How does one accidently impregnate a woman?

[AfRoMaN36]

Accidents happen, condoms break. a little guy can fight all odds and swim by. Condoms are about 99% effective, but their is still a chance he may get by. I just think the option should be out their. I wouldnt do it myself, Im not an unemployed 15 year old who banged his girlfriend and thought that pulling out at the right time would mean no kids. Im responsible enough to know whats at stake. But it doesnt apply for everyone.

[WrestleManiac]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;219655]Accidents happen, condoms break. a little guy can fight all odds and swim by. Condoms are about 99% effective, but their is still a chance he may get by. QUOTE] To quote Jack Black: "You shouldn't have f**ked me so hard." Seriously though, I agree the choice should be there for the more unfortunate out there, but I also think that the less unfortunate should take more responsibilty.

[AfRoMaN36]

yep. no arguments there.

[panix04]

you know what they call people who use the withdrawal method of contraception don't you?...... .....Daddy!

[Jorge_JBR]

[QUOTE=panix04;219648]but if they can't afford to raise a child, why get pregnant in the 1st place? Just a thought, although it has always struck me as kind of ironic, condoms are free at the family planning clinic![/QUOTE] Here in the states, there isn't a family planning center in every town. Secondly, if a girl is in a really Christian family or what have you, she's going to be a little bit worried about going to one. Have you seen Saved!?

[Anubis]

[QUOTE=panix04;219648]but if they can't afford to raise a child, why get pregnant in the 1st place? Just a thought, although it has always struck me as kind of ironic, condoms are free at the family planning clinic![/QUOTE] They aren't around here where I live in central Illinois. Heck, not entirely certain, but I think the closest family planning clinic to where I live is like 30-40 miles away, I have never heard of one here in Pontiac. By the way, I never claimed my rules were capable of being enforced, that's just how I feel. I know that they wouldn't work because people could just easily lie about how they got pregnant. Then again, the question of the topic wasn't "what laws would you pass", but "what is your opinion". Plus, I have no problem tagging people as stupid if the tag fits. People who just screw around without caring of the consequences and make no effort to prevent pregnancy, sorry, I can't consider them anything else to be honest, mean or not. People just don't seem to take responsibility for their actions sometime. :p Now if you ask me where I stand [i]legally[/i], then yes, I suppose I would be technically pro-choice.

[panix04]

[QUOTE=Jorge_JBR;219760]Here in the states, there isn't a family planning center in every town. Secondly, if a girl is in a really Christian family or what have you, she's going to be a little bit worried about going to one. Have you seen Saved!?[/QUOTE] Fair enough, i am basing my opinion largely on England as that is the country i have been bought up in. As for the good christian girl not wanting to visit a family planning clinic, surely the risk of being seen there is slightly better then having to tell mama and papa that your up the duff! :D