Fighter Stats For Discussion

[Adam Ryland]

Below is a listing of the current proposed stats for a WMMA fighter, so that people can add their opinions and suggestions. [B]Main Details[/B] Name, Short Name, Nickname, Pictures, Current Weight, Walking Weight, Minimum Weight Possible, Maximum Weight Possible, Height, Weight, Birthday, Hometown ("Fighting Out Of..."), Nationality, Fight Style [B]General Fighting Stats[/B] Approach (Counter Striker, Hyper Aggressive, etc), Conditioning, Strength, Mobility, Reflexes, Chin Strength, Stun Recovery, Cut (how prone he is to bleed), Reach Of Arms, Reach Of Legs, Consistency (of performance), Dedication, Resilience To Injury [B]Standing Stats[/B] Footwork, Punch Power, Punch Technique, Hand Speed, Kick Power, Kick Technique, Kick Speed, Knee Power, Knee Technique, Wrestling Ability, Takedowns, Takedown Set Ups, Slams, Clinch, Takedown Defence, Strike Defence [B]Clinching Stats[/B] Grappling, Takedown, Takedown Defence, Elbow Power, Elbow Technique, Knee Power, Knee Technique [B]Ground Stats[/B] Striking, Sweeping, Submissions, Submission Defence, Attacking Positioning, Defensive Positioning, Control (ability to maintain control of opponent when on attack), Escape (ability to get back to feet after being grounded), Flexibility [B]Down & Up Stats (when fighter down, opponent up)[/B] Positioning, Kick Power, Kick Technique [B]Mental Stats[/B] Experience, Instincts, Killer Instinct, Patience, Courage [B]Physical[/B] Head, Body, Arm, and Leg condition [B]Marketability[/B] Reputation (as a fighter), Charisma, Popularity (divided by game world) [B]Personality[/B] Attitude, Business Sense, Personality Type (outgoing, reserved, etc)

[Jacko00]

Seems pretty good, I think the popularity should be changed though, heres why. MMA does nt have many mainstream stars, at the moment its guys like Chuck Liddel and Tito Ortiz and Ken Shamrock, like Boxing I think MMA will only have mainstream stars like the champions of the weight divisions, so maybe instead of popularity there could be two groups, one likeabillity and mainstream, so that would let the player know if a) the guy is a peoples favorite and b) if he is known buy the general public or not.

[y2trav]

everything looks pretty much perfect, but there is ONE thing i would change. i would have both a wrestling ability, and a mma wrestling ability. let me explain the difference. there are plenty of world class wrestlers out there who get into mma and can do nothing with their wrestling but "lay and prey." basically take you down and hold you there. early josh koschek and current matt hamil are two examples. then there are guys that adapt their wrestling to mma and can use it to dominate their opponets. probably the best of these are henderson, cotoure, and lindland(basically old team quest guys.) this isnt a huge change but one that would add depth and would let you scout young talent better. also the wrestling could help determine how well/fast the mma wrestling stat increased.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=y2trav;223551]then there are guys that adapt their wrestling to mma and can use it to dominate their opponets. probably the best of these are henderson, cotoure, and lindland(basically old team quest guys.) [/QUOTE] I'm not sure I understand your point, can you clarify please? Once they've wrestled the opponent to the mat, wouldn't the fact that they can dominate be down to their superior ground skills, not down to their wrestling ability?

[y2trav]

ok, i guess it could be called something different. basically what im saying is that lay and prayers take you down and hold you there, but cant really improve position(sade control, mount) and just lay on you for the decision. their ground and pound is generally weak as well. wrestlers who adapt to mma are more dominate. the pass guard better, they take dominating positions and tend to finish fights with ground and pound. the stat could be ground and pound(i didnt see that one, and i believe thats a must stat(with out it fedor wouldnt be the fighter he is.). i hope i explained it ok, if not ill try again, but mma is a passion of mine and in my head i know the difference, but have a hard time explaining it. EDIT: also, wresters who havnt adapted their skill to mma are extremely BORING!

[Lux]

Well theres loads of really good wrestlers, BJJ guys and even strikers in MMA, but most of them just dont know how to use their abilities in MMA. Someone like CroCop really knows how to implement that kickboxing skill into his game, when a really good thai fighter like Kit Cope isnt too impressive because he isnt that good at "MMA striking". So maybe add some kind of a stat that determines how well the fighter takes advantage of his bread & butter? Just like y2trav said, theres a difference between wrestling and MMA wrestling. Then again, you could just make the good MMA wrestlers a little better than good pure wrestlers, I guess.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=y2trav;223563]wrestlers who adapt to mma are more dominate. the pass guard better, they take dominating positions and tend to finish fights with ground and pound. the stat could be ground and pound(i didnt see that one, and i believe thats a must stat(with out it fedor wouldnt be the fighter he is.). i hope i explained it ok, if not ill try again, but mma is a passion of mine and in my head i know the difference, but have a hard time explaining it.[/QUOTE] The two Ground stats of Attacking Positioning and Control would be used for the first paragraph that I have quoted, and the G&P would be that plus their striking ability. I think when combined, these would give the same effect as the "MMA Wrestling" that you're proposing? Anyone else have any input?

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Lux`;223565]So maybe add some kind of a stat that determines how well the fighter takes advantage of his bread & butter? Just like y2trav said, theres a difference between wrestling and MMA wrestling.[/QUOTE] That's true, but in regards to that last sentence, remember that all these stats are in relation to their skill as an MMA fighter, so by default we are talking about their wrestling skills as it pertains to the Octagon \ ring.

[Lux]

Oh and I just realized that there's two skills that you might be lacking. 1. Timing (of strikes). Couture vs Liddell 1 was a great example of how you can beat a really good striker standing up, if you can just time your shots perfectly. Once again, you can probably throw this into one of the other striking abilities, but it's just an idea. 2. Transitioning/Changing levels. You just can't take a really good sprawler (say a Chuck Liddell) down, unless you can get that shot going a nanosecond after a strike. Tito Ortiz for one is horrible at this. He always goes for the long shoot, which probably won't work if the opponent has any kind of wrestling abilities. Couture on the other hand sets up his takedowns with a strike or two and then goes for the shoot.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Lux`;223574]Oh and I just realized that there's two skills that you might be lacking. 1. Timing (of strikes). Couture vs Liddell 1 was a great example of how you can beat a really good striker standing up, if you can just time your shots perfectly. Once again, you can probably throw this into one of the other striking abilities, but it's just an idea. 2. Transitioning/Changing levels. You just can't take a really good sprawler (say a Chuck Liddell) down, unless you can get that shot going a nanosecond after a strike. Tito Ortiz for one is horrible at this. He always goes for the long shoot, which probably won't work if the opponent has any kind of wrestling abilities. Couture on the other hand sets up his takedowns with a strike or two and then goes for the shoot.[/QUOTE] I think the first would really fall into punch technique (I can't imagine someone having great technique but awful timing, they seem to go hand in hand, pardon the pun - anyone got a counter argument?), but I do like the second suggestion a lot. Perhaps it could be under the heading of "Takedown Set Up", and could be involved with the opponents sprawl \ footwork \ movement in deciding how likely it is that the attacker can get in and apply the takedown, before switching to the actual Takedown stat for how well executed the move actually is?

[Pampero Firpo]

First, let me say that I am extremely excited about this game. I'm a big fan of your work on TWE and also a big fan of MMA -- put the two together and I'm confident you'll create a game that will keep me busy for a long time. That said, I have a few thoughts and questions on the stats. I'm not sure I understand the difference between "current weight", "walking weight" and "weight" -- could you elaborate please? If I understand the rating correctly, I suggest renaming "stun" to "recovery". You have "wrestling ability" listed as a standing stat. Wouldn't that be considered more a ground or clinching stat or pehaps even just a general fighting stat? Can you clarify "clinch" that is listed under the standing stats? Is this the ability of the fighter to enter into a clinch with his/her opponent? Can you clarify "guard" that is listed under the standing stats? Is this the ability of the fighter to pull guard and drag his opponent on top of him? If not, how does this differ from "defensive positioning" listed under ground stats? On a similar note, can you clarify what "defensive positioning" will include? Is it the effectiveness of the fighter's guard? Is it his/her ability to sweep their opponent? Is it both? If both, I'd recommend breaking out effectiveness from the guard and sweep ability as separate ratings. If it doesn't include sweep ability, I like to suggest that as an additional category. I think you should consider adding a ground striking ability. Just because someone is an effective striker while standing does not necessarily mean they will be effective and striking while on the ground. Thanks for keeping everyone updated on what you're doing and seeking our input.

[BuddyGarner]

There should be a finances stat to determine how much they can spend on training and dedication to determine how hard they train

[Undertaker666]

[QUOTE=Pampero Firpo;223587]I think you should consider adding a ground striking ability. Just because someone is an effective striker while standing does not necessarily mean they will be effective and striking while on the ground.[/QUOTE] ^ that's a good point, I thought that was going to be included, or have I missed something - Adam? :confused:

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE]I'm not sure I understand the difference between "current weight", "walking weight" and "weight" -- could you elaborate please?[/QUOTE] Walking weight is their "normal" body weight when they're between fights. Current weight would be the same thing, except that shortly before a fight they would starting cutting weight to meet the limit for that weight division. The higher their walking weight from the limit, the more effort they have to put in to make weight. [QUOTE]If I understand the rating correctly, I suggest renaming "stun" to "recovery".[/QUOTE] I agree - all names are temporary at the moment, short names are just easier for me to type! :p [QUOTE]You have "wrestling ability" listed as a standing stat. Wouldn't that be considered more a ground or clinching stat or pehaps even just a general fighting stat?[/QUOTE] It could go under the clinch category too, yes, it was really a toss up whether it went into standing or clinch. I chose standing as from my limited knowledge of amateur wrestling, you can also do things like single leg takedowns and go-behinds, correct? If so, then you wouldn't need to clinch first. I'm open to debate on moving it. It wouldn't come under the ground category, as that would really be covered by ground control and the two positioning stats. [QUOTE]Can you clarify "clinch" that is listed under the standing stats? Is this the ability of the fighter to enter into a clinch with his/her opponent?[/QUOTE] Yes, it's their ability to get into the clinch safely and quickly. [QUOTE]Can you clarify "guard" that is listed under the standing stats? Is this the ability of the fighter to pull guard and drag his opponent on top of him? If not, how does this differ from "defensive positioning" listed under ground stats?[/QUOTE] It's badly named - what it means is how good they are at guarding against punches and kicks. It's meant to simulate how some people get really sloppy keeping their hands too low (or completely down if it's Gomi against Diaz!) which allows them to get caught, whereas some fighters maintain a solid guard throughout the match. I guess it'd be better named as Strike Defence. [QUOTE]On a similar note, can you clarify what "defensive positioning" will include? Is it the effectiveness of the fighter's guard? Is it his/her ability to sweep their opponent? Is it both? If both, I'd recommend breaking out effectiveness from the guard and sweep ability as separate ratings. If it doesn't include sweep ability, I like to suggest that as an additional category.[/QUOTE] Yes, it was meant to be their positioning while in guard or having been mounted into full mount, side mount, etc. I agree that sweeping should be included. [QUOTE]I think you should consider adding a ground striking ability. Just because someone is an effective striker while standing does not necessarily mean they will be effective and striking while on the ground.[/QUOTE] That's odd - I must have accidentally typed over the first line, I know I wrote ground striking down as a stat when making the post :confused:

[Ghostface]

[QUOTE] Stun (how quick he can shake off a stun)[/QUOTE] As someone already said, I'd change that to recovery. Makes more sense that way. EDIT - Nevermind, just saw your post Adam. [QUOTE][B]Standing Stats[/B] Footwork, Punch Power, Punch Technique, Hand Speed, Kick Power, Kick Technique, Wrestling Ability, Takedowns, Slams, Clinch, Takedown Defence, Guard [B]Clinching Stats[/B] Takedown, Takedown Defence, Elbow Power, Elbow Technique, Knee Power, Knee Technique [/QUOTE]What about knee's outside of the clinch? Alot of fighters use them and surely it would be a different stat? [QUOTE] [B]Ground Stats[/B] Submissions, Submission Defence, Attacking Positioning, Defensive Positioning, Control (ability to maintain control of opponent when on attack) [/QUOTE]Maybe add in a defensive control stat aswell. [QUOTE]I think you should consider adding a ground striking ability. Just because someone is an effective striker while standing does not necessarily mean they will be effective and striking while on the ground.[/QUOTE]I agree, striking from the ground is a different ballgame. Maybe a striking from your back stat aswell, some fighters throws some nasty punches/elbows from the bottom. [QUOTE]It could go under the clinch category too, yes, it was really a toss up whether it went into standing or clinch. I chose standing as from my limited knowledge of amateur wrestling, you can also do things like single leg takedowns and go-behinds, correct? If so, then you wouldn't need to clinch first. I'm open to debate on moving it.[/QUOTE] It could go into both, some fighters have great takedowns/trips from the clinch but thier shoot and single/double legs are crap.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=BuddyGarner;223601]There should be a finances stat to determine how much they can spend on training and dedication to determine how hard they train[/QUOTE] I have added Dedication to the list. Personal finance I don't agree with, as I think that's a level of detail that is unnecessary.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Ghostface;223630]What about knee's outside of the clinch? Alot of fighters use them and surely it would be a different stat?[/QUOTE] I was intending to have that one stat represent both, as I couldn't think of anyone who was good at standing knees but not good at it in the clinch (or vica versa), but on second thoughts I think you're right, it'd be better to have them separate - especially for Muay Thai guys.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Ghostface;223630]It could go into both, some fighters have great takedowns/trips from the clinch but thier shoot and single/double legs are crap.[/QUOTE] How about Wrestling covering the standing non-clinched version, and Grappling covering the clinched version? That sounds right to me, as in the clinch you really are grappling for control, whereas there's more room for technique and poise outside. Sound OK?

[Ghostface]

[QUOTE=Adam Ryland;223635]How about Wrestling covering the standing non-clinched version, and Grappling covering the clinched version? That sounds right to me, as in the clinch you really are grappling for control, whereas there's more room for technique and poise outside. Sound OK?[/QUOTE] Yeah, that would work I reckon. Most of takedowns from the clinch are usually trips and throws anyways, moreso Judo than wrestling.

[Pampero Firpo]

One other stat worth considering -- the ability to stand up after being taken down. While some guys have a good sprawl and are thus difficult to take down, once you've got them to the mat it's relatively easy to keep them there. For other fighters, even if you manage to get them to the ground it is tough to keep them there since they are adept at getting back to their feet. Liddell is a perfect example of this -- even in you get him down (which in itself isn't easy), he has the uncanny ability to get back up quickly before you can capitalize on the takedown.

[Adam Ryland]

OK, I'll add one called Ground Escape.

[Pampero Firpo]

Regarding wrestling ability, you said: [QUOTE=Adam Ryland;223629]It could go under the clinch category too, yes, it was really a toss up whether it went into standing or clinch. I chose standing as from my limited knowledge of amateur wrestling, you can also do things like single leg takedowns and go-behinds, correct? If so, then you wouldn't need to clinch first. I'm open to debate on moving it. It wouldn't come under the ground category, as that would really be covered by ground control and the two positioning stats.[/QUOTE] Based on this, I'm wondering if we need a separate wrestling ability stat at all -- I think it may be covered by the other stats. Grabbing ahold of your opponent is covered by clinch. Single-leg and double-leg takedowns are covered by the takedowns skill. And as you've stated, once on the ground wrestling ability is covered by ground control and the positioning stats. What else would the wrestling ability stat encompass that isn't covered by the other stats?

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Pampero Firpo;223657]Based on this, I'm wondering if we need a separate wrestling ability stat at all -- I think it may be covered by the other stats. Grabbing ahold of your opponent is covered by clinch. Single-leg and double-leg takedowns are covered by the takedowns skill. And as you've stated, once on the ground wrestling ability is covered by ground control and the positioning stats. What else would the wrestling ability stat encompass that isn't covered by the other stats?[/QUOTE] I see it as covering the ability of moving your opponent around while clinched or grappling (so "Standing Control" I guess) and being for specific takedowns. The actual Takedown stat I was thinking of as being specifically about the "spear-style" takedown and the sweep-stype takedown, so I'd have the "belly to belly" takedown and go-behind takedown under Wrestling. I'm certainly open to it being removed if nobody likes the idea, I was just trying to add something to help simulate people who are very good in a close-up grappling situation, without necessarily going to a clinch.

[kadekash1983]

Regarding the weights... How about a Fatigue/Dehydration stat in case a fighter has to lose alot of weight quickly to prepare for a fight. Like if a guy is 185 normally but has to drop to 155 to make a fight. A good example of this is Gabe Ruediger?sp? on the new episode of The Ultimate Fighter. He is walking around at 177 and almost had to cut 22Lbs. in two days to make his weight. Josh Haynes is another guy that comes to mind. He normally fights at 205 and fought Luke Cummo recently at 170. The fatigue stat could also come in handy if they are fighting too frequently.

[Ghostface]

Wouldn't that come down more to preparation? Most fighters cut down gradually before the fight to counter the dehydration aspect, it'd be more down to bad training than an actual stat for the fighter.