WWE Asks "What If"

[Bad Luck Brett]

Not sure how many of you have seen the new section on WWE.com called "What If" (I just noticed it today) but today the ask the question "What if Hogan didn't slam Andre at WM3?". [URL="http://www.wwe.com/inside/whatif/"]Link Here[/URL] John Cena gives an answer to the effect of Wrestlemania wouldn't be what it is today and WWE gives us poll choices that echo that sentiment, including a choice saying that Hulkamania would've ceased at that moment. To me this is all a bunch of horse poo or revisionist history at the most. Ignoring the fact that could hardly be called a slam (yeah it may look good on the replay which I suspect may have been 'enhanced' over the years, watching it live Hogan barely picked him up above his kneecaps), that Andre pinned Hogan early into the match (referee Joey Marella pretended that his hand didn't slap the mat for the three), and also when Andre had Hogan in a bear hug at one point Hogan's arm dropped 3 times which usually ends a match but I guess Hogan being Hogan he gets 4 chances. Hogan V Andre did not make WM what it is today. Hogan, Piper, Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, Moolah, Wendi Richter and Lou Albano made Wrestlemania what it is today. I saw the original Wrestlemania, no I wasn't in New York, no I didn't get it on PPV cable, I went to the sold out Providence civic center with a capacity between 15-20 thousand people to watch it on a big movie screen set up in the arena, and there were arenas holding the same event all over the country (if not world). I ask, how many wrestling cards (or any other event for that matter) could boast that they sold out arenas for fans to watch a movie screen. Maybe WM3 could have done the same, but PPV in the home was already the standard by that card. By the time WM3 rolled around I was rooting for Andre big time, just waiting for someone to end hogan's streak, hell I was already rooting against Hogan by WM2 when he faced Bundy. And there were plenty of Anti-maniacs besides me at that point. Just had to rant a bit, yeah that was a huge match, but I'm sick of being [B]TOLD[/B] that Hogan V Andre made WM.

[PeterHilton]

Meh. The match itself didn't "make" WM. But by matching up those two, the WWF shattered PPV records for the time and legitimized pro wrestling as a major part of the mainstream entertainment industry. The fact that the WWF could generate those numbers allowed the WWF to be a national force for years to come. The names you mentioned made WM an event for wrestling fans. But WM3 was when the WWF "crossed over."

[D. Boons Ghost]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;233570]... The names you mentioned made WM an event for wrestling fans. But WM3 was when the WWF "crossed over."[/QUOTE] If Mr. T, Muhammad Ali, Cyndi Lauper, Billy Martin, Liberace, and the Rockettes weren't cross over, I've no clue what would be. :rolleyes:

[PeterHilton]

[QUOTE=D. Boon's Ghost;233599]If Mr. T, Muhammad Ali, Cyndi Lauper, Billy Martin, Liberace, and the Rockettes weren't cross over, I've no clue what would be. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Right. And in 1985, other than Lauper all those people were B list celebrities. You could get better names on the Jerry Lewis telethon. And again...WM3 was in a whole other stratosphere from a financial standpoint. When TV and cable execs saw just how powereful the WWF could be it completely changed how they were viewed within the industry.

[PeterHilton]

Seriously...LOL at the idea that Billy Martin and Liberace had 'crossover' appeal in 1985. Miller Lite had bigger names in their commercial. Looking back now, the biggest name in the building was Ali and it's almost sad that he wasn't treated with the same kind of respect by the general public in 85 as he is now.

[MightyDavidson]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;233608]Right. And in 1985, other than Lauper all those people were B list celebrities. You could get better names on the Jerry Lewis telethon. And again...WM3 was in a whole other stratosphere from a financial standpoint. When TV and cable execs saw just how powereful the WWF could be it completely changed how they were viewed within the industry.[/QUOTE] Actually in 1985 the A-Team was one of the most popular shows on television and Mr. T was it's star, he was brought in for Wrestlemania 1 and 2 for that reason. Now of course he's B-list but at the time, Vince actually did manage to strike while the iron was hot. As for the Rockettes, strictly speaking they weren't celebrities really at all. They were just well known T&A. :D

[PeterHilton]

OK, true on Mr. T. But I'm not actually trying to debate the relative merits of the stars on the card. Vince has said bringing in these celebrities was a way to get attention. But the topic was: did Hogan slamming Andre MAKE Wrestlemania. No, but the incredible success of WM3 over all is what firmly established Wrestlemania as the event it is today.

[jbergey_2005]

Ricky Steamboat vs Randy Savage made WM3. Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant got the fans there for these two to steal the show. I am still pissed Steamboat got treated so bad with the WWF. WM1 was a huge event and in saying this I am not taking away from what it was but other than the being the first of its kind that actual card was nothing special at all. In fact most of the matches were lousy.

[MightyDavidson]

[QUOTE=PeterHilton;233627]OK, true on Mr. T. But I'm not actually trying to debate the relative merits of the stars on the card. Vince has said bringing in these celebrities was a way to get attention. But the topic was: did Hogan slamming Andre MAKE Wrestlemania. No, but the incredible success of WM3 over all is what firmly established Wrestlemania as the event it is today.[/QUOTE] Well I'll agree with you on that. I would say however that while Hogan slamming Andre didn't single handedly make Wrestlemania, it certainly helped.

[Bad Luck Brett]

Good points by all (especially the treatment of Ali then and now). I guess that what my problem is the Hogan/Andre match was in fact a huge main event but it always referred to as a "passing the torch moment" which I have to disagree with. Hogan was already well established as a pop-culture icon by 1987 and Hulkamania was already a household word. Andre didn't "pass a torch" because Hogan didn't need it, he was single handedly carrying the whole company. It was just another huge main event.

[djthefunkchris]

Well, I have a similar experience as you. I watched Wrestlemania live (the first ONE... Which I thought meant a ONE TIME THING at the time). Anyways, I watched it... I went and seen it on closed captioned TV at an arena... and there were thousands watching with me. It was totally awesome... Now. First off, Liberachy was a crossover... MAJOR in my opinion. Here you have an artist that appealed to my GRANDPARENTS! The only thing they could have topped that with in my opinion is having 'Ole Blue Eyes' himself there... He might not have been good for ME.. but it made it possible for me to see it with people that wouldn't normally go watch wrestling. Now, ALI was treated like a KING where I watched it from (Cleveland). Especially when he jumped in the ring and everyone ran from him.. BIGGEST POP Of the whole dang Match in my opinion (Maybe it was different with your crowd, but with mine it hit like magic). Ali, and Mr. T... Who was well known as being a bodyguard to Ali at this time (he wasn't STILL his bodyguard, but it was definately a known fact that he used to be). Most of us that went, went to see Ali and Mr. T... To be honest. Oh, and I wanted to see Snuka... I really Wanted him to do something big there! Another thing, was we were anticipating a turn by Orndorff. We were given slight hints of it for a while.. Only we didn't call it a turn, we called it changing sides, lol. A couple of times Piper seemed to have upset him (on TV), and you could tell he wasn't digging it at all. So there was the storyline going as well. On Wrestlemania 3.. I wanted to see the Boxing match between Piper and Mr. T more then anything else (What a dissapointment that ended up being, but it made me a Piper fan for life). SO yeah.. The big 'ole match between Hogan and Andre really wasn't the reason I was there. However, when he picked that guy up I "Marked" out (I think I'm using that right) like a school student. It might have looked like he didn't pick him up past his knees to you, but it was definately clear to me that he picked him up and slammed him, and had him at least to his Waist (LOL). Anyways, that was a critical thing there. Not in the way WWE has it though. This was a HUGE Thing, because it now let THEM realise that having a strong guy pick up and slam someone that it looks too hard to do, will get HUGE POPS. You cannot deny that when he slammed Andre, the crowd cheered so hard it brought chills to your skin. It was MAGIC. So when Cena slams Khali, they know what will happen.. When he slammed Big show, They knew what would happen. When Undertaker gave Mark Henry the "Tombstone".. They knew it would rock the crowd. It has to be built up though.. And don't forget... When he acted as though he was going to slam Andre more then once... And Andre did fall on him. That was the buildup. They already knew he could slam him, that was just all build up to make it look even harder.

[dvdWarrior]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;233664]On Wrestlemania 3.. I wanted to see the Boxing match between Piper and Mr. T more then anything else (What a dissapointment that ended up being, but it made me a Piper fan for life).[/QUOTE] The boxing match between T and Piper was at WrestleMania 2; Piper wrestled Adrian Adonis at WrestleMania 3. Sorry to be correcting, just thought I'd contribute to the convo. Sadly, I was five at the time of the first WM, and 7 at the time of the third, so I don't really remember what that pop culture scene was like at the time, from a personal viewpoint anyway, but it seems to me that Mania 3 has much more in common with the current Manias than the first. :cool:

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=dvdWarrior;233666]The boxing match between T and Piper was at WrestleMania 2; Piper wrestled Adrian Adonis at WrestleMania 3. Sorry to be correcting, just thought I'd contribute to the convo. Sadly, I was five at the time of the first WM, and 7 at the time of the third, so I don't really remember what that pop culture scene was like at the time, from a personal viewpoint anyway, but it seems to me that Mania 3 has much more in common with the current Manias than the first. :cool:[/QUOTE] You know something... I believe that's the second time that happened to me (getting them confused). I must be getting old, lol.. after your post I sure don't feel any "Younger", lol. I don't know... Here is my thing on this. I felt more entertained then, then I do now. I believe that has to do with it being part of my "good ole days", but it just seemed so much BIGGER to me back then. I look at the number's now, and compare with number's back then... and I just have a hard time believing how much "bigger" they are now then then. But then again, I got wrestling shows themselve's confused back then as well. We would watch different shows and think that all of them were related somehow... Not like now, where it's so obvious. Back then, they all seemed to do about the same things, just different people doing them. And figuring out which one was the show that had more people you liked on it was hard... But Wrestlemania put an end to that. WWF was wrestling far as we were concerned... all other's were just wanna-be's. I know that sounds bad, but you have to realise, there wasn't really anyone saying different. WWF was it, and they proved it (to us at the time). Anyways, Wrestlemania put wrestling in a place it had never been before... which is bassically, everywhere. Wrestlemania, the SHOW itself is what made wrestling... I know Hogan and other's want to say it was because of them. I believe that it didn't matter, as long as it was someone popular. The cross-promoting that it did, having Ali, Mr. T, Cyndi Lauper, etc.. etc.. was what brought in the big bucks. Yes, wrestling was there, yes, we all wanted to see the match's. But it wouldn't have been that big of a deal if it didn't feel like the whole world was involved... and it did at that time. It was on MTV!!! They were promoting alot of things through the biggest thing since Atari (for kids). SO it seemed alot bigger then it was I guess, but I have never felt that way since.

[dvdWarrior]

I think WrestleMania VIII was the first one I saw live, I'm not sure on that at the moment. Whichever one it was where the announcers had to wear the togas. I did get to see that first WrestleMania through the magic of video tape a couple of years after the fact, thanks to a mother who was willing to support my wrestling habit and a video store nearby. I grew up on the NWA, actually, and didn't really get into the WWF until about the time I saw that first WrestleMania. Incidentally, that great big WrestleMania dvd set is well worth the price of admission, but it might be easiest to get it in those sets of five they have. I only have the first five so far, but now that business is starting to pick up at my workplace, I might be bringing in the rest of them before too much longer. Back on topic, the first WrestleMania was definitely big, but I think WrestleMania III is the best of the first five. Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. I can't really agree though that Hulk slamming Andre was the event that made WrestleMania what it was, though. I mean, there were already 93,000, (I think it was) fans at the Silverdome for that show, so I'm tempted to think that the company had already turned a corner somewhere along the way. Plus, I dare say that if things had worked out differently, even if Hulkamania had been laid to rest that very day, that Vince would've probably been able to figure something else out to find success. That's just my opinion though, like I said. :)

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=dvdWarrior;233673] Plus, I dare say that if things had worked out differently, even if Hulkamania had been laid to rest that very day, that Vince would've probably been able to figure something else out to find success. That's just my opinion though, like I said. :)[/QUOTE] I 100% aggree with you.

[adamrobertk]

Personally i always wondered why they didnt put piper v hogan 1 on 1 for the title at a mania. It always made more sense. Andre Hogan was the pinnacle of the sport at that time, but if it had been anywhere else it wouldn't have been that special. Mania's iconic status had already been solidified by that point after mania 1 and 2. The 2 made each other.

[PeterHilton]

The yadded Mr T as a way of getting mainstream publicity for the first WM WM2 was financially less successful that WM. So whil;e fans may have felt it was an established event, it was definitely not looked on by the general public as somethin special. Like Starcade; JCP could call it the 'gran' daddy of them all' as much as they like but outside of wrestling fans it wasnt really much of anything.

[dvdWarrior]

I also think WrestleMania 2 was probably the weakest of all the WrestleManias. It seems that splitting the show between three cities wasn't as good an idea as it had at first seemed, (which is further evidenced by the fact that they haven't repeated the experiment in any of the 20 WrestleManias since), as each city only had a handful of live matches, and the WWF had to work to go out of its way to find a different announce team for each city. It also seems that WrestleMania 2 had more oopses per capita than most other Manias, but it still had its moments. Don't think I'm attacking WM2 btw, it was fun, and being the weakest of the WrestleManias still isn't that bad. Just thought I'd contribute an opinion here. :)