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One thing I really liked about TEW 04 was that you didn't need to be national lvl or above to sign workers to written contracts. I'd like to see that return in a modified version in TEW 08. I was thinking something like allowing Cult and Regional promotions to sign a limited # of guys to written contracts. One of the reasons I feel this way, is when playing TEW 07 Dave and USPW, both have guys signed to written contracts. My thinking is if they can have written deals why can't another Cult promotion? But just limit the #, that you can have at each level. I'd like to know how you feel about this idea and what number should be the limit for Cult and Regional promotions. Thanks
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Guest The Aussie
I actually think that Written deals should be offered to cult and regional level workers also; its just that you would pay much more to keep them exclusive to you.
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There should be written contracts but I think it should be really hard. The first thing is that it would probably depend on the personality of the worker, his loyalty to the company, his morale, his skill, his overness, how many other companies he is emplyed by. So to explain if he has average morale he wouldn't be as willing to sign a written contract. If he is really talented it is unlikely he would sign with a cult promotion if he has the calibre to be in a global promotion. If he is really over then he is less likely to sign with a smaller company. Also, if they are employed by other promotions that are bigger or they gain more money it would be less likely they would sign a written contract. So, saying that I would think the only way to get a guy to sign a written contract would be if they are average and loyal to your company. The benefit would be if a guy has potential you could sign him to a written contract and build him up. However, I think it should be hard to do.
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[QUOTE=rajde;390728]There should be written contracts but I think it should be really hard. The first thing is that it would probably depend on the personality of the worker, his loyalty to the company, his morale, his skill, his overness, how many other companies he is emplyed by. So to explain if he has average morale he wouldn't be as willing to sign a written contract. If he is really talented it is unlikely he would sign with a cult promotion if he has the calibre to be in a global promotion. If he is really over then he is less likely to sign with a smaller company. Also, if they are employed by other promotions that are bigger or they gain more money it would be less likely they would sign a written contract. So, saying that I would think the only way to get a guy to sign a written contract would be if they are average and loyal to your company. The benefit would be if a guy has potential you could sign him to a written contract and build him up. However, I think it should be hard to do.[/QUOTE] I would say for most guys this would be true, but at the same time you have to consider that a guy may want to sign exclusive to you to be your major player. In other words, you'd offer him Creative Control, and promise him major title runs. Probably would also cost more, but some guys want to be the man that takes you to the next lvl. I think of guys like Samoa Joe in TNA, I believe he's about to become the franchise player of TNA. As a company you really want to lock a wrestler up before you, give them a major push as they could bolt on you otherwise. I could see maybe 10 written deals for a cult, and say 5 for a regional promotion. But I do agree we rajde, that other factors should be included.
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[QUOTE=The Aussie;390704]I actually think that Written deals should be offered to cult and regional level workers also; its just that you would pay much more to keep them exclusive to you.[/QUOTE] I would agree with this. I think it should be more expensive on the extreme end of the spectrum. You have this worker who COULD work in several promotions at once, giving up that right to be exclusive to a promotion that isn't a major player. As such, I believe a worker should ask for AT LEAST three times their current wage, in monthly terms, to sign a written below national. In addition, I think it should double for every level below Cult (so Regional promotions would have to pay a minimum of SIX times the worker's current wage, in monthly terms). Extreme? Sure. But it should be. Regional promotions don't put on enough shows, by and large, to make written contracts make any kind of sense (on either side of the equation). As such, a worker is giving up a HUGE amount of potential income (opportunity cost) by signing an exclusive deal with a promotion of that size. Sorry, if you're Regional and putting on one show a month, that worker is being shafted out of money so you should have to make that up. It should be available for folks to use as an option, but it should be prohibitively expensive to do so.
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^ We can hit the real life example of that right away, if we presume TNA are a Cult fed. TNA interested on giving Mesias a full time contract, he ups his wage demands from his current PPA deal as he can get paid five times a week for AAA. TNA say no. It's all amicable - TNA could have signed Mesias exclusively, but the finances didn't work for them.
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Yeah, if it was in, I would kinda think of it this way (just to make it easier to figure out if it was worth it). Let's say you run 4 shows a month, and you earn $X per show, with a (base) cost per show of $Y. If X greater than Y + the worker's cost under the written contract / 4? If not, there's not too much point in signing the worker, unless you really want them and don't want them to sign for a bigger fed (I could see this coming into play) or some other crazy reason (like wanting to burn some cash?). I also think that it should be cheaper, or they would be more likely to sign a written contract, if they have a good relationship with you, or are loyal to your promotion. If they don't like you, it should be harder to convince them, and they would want more more. I also think personality should come into play. Like if they are leaning toward the sides of Mercenary (for obvious reasons), Hesitant and Timid (not sure they want to make such a dangerous career move), it would be tougher (to the point of impossiblity in some cases) to sign them. On the other hand, if they are Loyal, Bold, Driven, maybe even Naive, it would be easier (to the point of them not even hesitating). That could add another dimenstion to both contract negotiation and relationships. If you know they're really naive and loyal, you could probably offer them less money and they'd take the written contract. If they're really Mercenary, you probably should even bother without expecting to pay 10 times their PPA cost.
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[QUOTE=Remianen;390994]I would agree with this. I think it should be more expensive on the extreme end of the spectrum. You have this worker who COULD work in several promotions at once, giving up that right to be exclusive to a promotion that isn't a major player. As such, I believe a worker should ask for AT LEAST three times their current wage, in monthly terms, to sign a written below national. In addition, I think it should double for every level below Cult (so Regional promotions would have to pay a minimum of SIX times the worker's current wage, in monthly terms). Extreme? Sure. But it should be. Regional promotions don't put on enough shows, by and large, to make written contracts make any kind of sense (on either side of the equation). As such, a worker is giving up a HUGE amount of potential income (opportunity cost) by signing an exclusive deal with a promotion of that size. Sorry, if you're Regional and putting on one show a month, that worker is being shafted out of money so you should have to make that up. It should be available for folks to use as an option, but it should be prohibitively expensive to do so.[/QUOTE] Let's not forget though that many People who work on PPA deals don't get really make all that much in the first place. Say a worker works for 3 promotions that each hold a monthly show. So this worker may work up to 3 times in one month, he could also not be used on any of the shows, if he doesn't have a down side he is left with $0. Also to consider, if he gets injured, $0 dollars. A written contract does, offer more secruity. How would you like to go home each night from your job, with the boss saying we'll call you in the morning if we need you? That would be a little bit scary to me. And if you argue the worked would work up to 3 times a week for different promotions, which is true, unless they were all right in the same area, that would be a lot of travel, as you know most guys don't get travel paid for by the promotions. I would agree that lower levels should have to offer more, but I wouldn't make it totally unreasonable either. I'd think more like 1.5 for cult and 2 times as much for regional. Also working three times a week, with all that trave would increase chances of injury, which as I mention before would be bad for someone only on a PPA contract.
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Good points all on this thread, guys. Allow me to add my 2 cents. In my opinion, in order to come up with something workable and realistic, we should first examine why in real life a worker would be reluctant to sign with a smaller fed. Since we're playing the roll of the fed head or booker, we'll bypass the money issue on the fed side. Problem #1 - A worker might see being exclusive to a smaller fed as beneath them. Solution - A tiered system in where whether they'd consider a contract from you based on fed size and the worker's overness. So, for instance, a cult promotion could offer a written contract to a wrestler with an overness as high as B-, a regional as high as C-, etc. etc. Problem #2 - A worker might see themselves as a future player on the big stage, and thus would not like to tie themselves up to a small promotion if a national fed comes calling. Solution - In the same tiered vein, limit the length of the written contract you can offer a worker based on your promotion size. So a small fed might only be able to sign Wrestler X exclusively for 6 months, a regional for a year, cult for a year and a half, etc etc Problem #3 - A worker would not want to miss out on the paydays they'd get as an independent contractor. Solution - Remianen put it perfectly. Put a premium on the contract demands to make up for any paydays missed, and some extra. Problem #4 - A worker might be hesitant to sign for a smaller promotion due to an uncertainty in the fed's stability. Let's face it, in real life, most small feds don't end up lasting forever. In the larger scope of things, look at a company like ECW (who I think would be a cult fed in the TEW world), who had several talents under written contract, so they couldn't work elsewhere, but who at the tail end weren't getting paid their contract wage, if they were getting paid at all. Solution - Add onto the contract demands a signing bonus, the amount of which can vary depending on the fed size, prestige, and the worker personality. For example, a worker who signed with a cult fed with a relatively high prestige might only require a signing bonus equal to one month's salary as a "security deposit," whereas a worker who is offered a contract by a seemingly fly-by-night local fed might ask for the equivalent of two or three month's pay.
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[QUOTE=djlightning;391054]Let's not forget though that many People who work on PPA deals don't get really make all that much in the first place. Say a worker works for 3 promotions that each hold a monthly show. So this worker may work up to 3 times in one month, he could also not be used on any of the shows, if he doesn't have a down side he is left with $0. Also to consider, if he gets injured, $0 dollars. A written contract does, offer more secruity. How would you like to go home each night from your job, with the boss saying we'll call you in the morning if we need you? That would be a little bit scary to me. And if you argue the worked would work up to 3 times a week for different promotions, which is true, unless they were all right in the same area, that would be a lot of travel, as you know most guys don't get travel paid for by the promotions. I would agree that lower levels should have to offer more, but I wouldn't make it totally unreasonable either. I'd think more like 1.5 for cult and 2 times as much for regional. Also working three times a week, with all that trave would increase chances of injury, which as I mention before would be bad for someone only on a PPA contract.[/QUOTE] Problem. "Guaranteed money" is only guaranteed....if the promotion can afford to PAY it. How many Regional or Small promotions have the kind of money where they can guarantee everyone gets paid? The world is full of Paul Heyman types, after all. Sorry, 1.5x the base wage is nowhere near enough IMO. No one with a brain is going to agree to sign an exclusive deal with a promotion that has no visible form of alternative income. You know why National is the level for written contracts? Because by that time, you have multiple revenue streams (TV, PPV, merchandising machine, etc), you have a NAME that people recognize, you're no longer a fly by night operation. What happens to that worker who signs an exclusive deal with a small or regional promotion.....only to have the promotion go belly up? It's not like that's an unusual occurrence in wrestling. So now this worker has a contract that isn't worth the paper it's printed on, and has to start from square one, just about. In TEW, this would make the game easy mode. If USPW could lock Darryl Devine up to a written, the promotion would play out far differently than it usually does. The same goes for DaVE, who would never lose Eddie Peak or the New Wave if this suggestion is implemented. It makes for a very staid game world and one that restricts worker movement. I think it should be possible to lock up one, perhaps two, workers before your bottom line starts to bleed red. 1.5-2 times their base rate is nothing with most workers. You could build a powerhouse promotion with a dozen workers working for that kind of wage, and still turn a profit.
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[QUOTE=Remianen;391472]Problem. "Guaranteed money" is only guaranteed....if the promotion can afford to PAY it. How many Regional or Small promotions have the kind of money where they can guarantee everyone gets paid? The world is full of Paul Heyman types, after all. Sorry, 1.5x the base wage is nowhere near enough IMO. No one with a brain is going to agree to sign an exclusive deal with a promotion that has no visible form of alternative income. You know why National is the level for written contracts? Because by that time, you have multiple revenue streams (TV, PPV, merchandising machine, etc), you have a NAME that people recognize, you're no longer a fly by night operation. What happens to that worker who signs an exclusive deal with a small or regional promotion.....only to have the promotion go belly up? It's not like that's an unusual occurrence in wrestling. So now this worker has a contract that isn't worth the paper it's printed on, and has to start from square one, just about. In TEW, this would make the game easy mode. If USPW could lock Darryl Devine up to a written, the promotion would play out far differently than it usually does. The same goes for DaVE, who would never lose Eddie Peak or the New Wave if this suggestion is implemented. It makes for a very staid game world and one that restricts worker movement. I think it should be possible to lock up one, perhaps two, workers before your bottom line starts to bleed red. 1.5-2 times their base rate is nothing with most workers. You could build a powerhouse promotion with a dozen workers working for that kind of wage, and still turn a profit.[/QUOTE] Have you ever looked at Dave or USPW at the start of the game. Both promotions already have guys that Adam has made have written contracts. And if I'm worried that my employer can't pay me a contract for $1000 a month, I'd have to be totally stupid to think they could afford to pay me $10,000 a month. I can not be 100% sure, but I would think most people would per to work in 1 area for a steady, and reliable income, than always traveling around hoping to make ends meat. If the independent scene is that great, why would any wrestler want to eventually settle down working for a TNA, WCW(back in the day) or WWE. If there's so much money there why did Mickey James have to have another job to pay the bills? No I don't think that most small promotions should have written contracts, but by the time you're regional in TEW, you'll easily able to hold weekly shows and make money doing so. You're able to get TV shows fairly easily. So why shouldn't you be able to lock up a few guys to make the stars of you company. I could see larger contracts for guys that you might want to sign that have no overness but that you're about to push to the moon. So say that a written contract has to be atleast $1000 a month or more than the amount of the highest paid PPA guy. As signing 5-10 guys at $250 a month, then turning them into A* talents would probably not be much fun, yet the big promotions are able to do that, so maybe what needs to happen, is just larger minumim on Written Contracts period. I understand you logic in thinking that not everyone would want sign a written contract with a smaller promotion, but some people would. It's like the big name recruit who signs with the smaller school, because he want's to be the man, who turned the program around. Also your logic doesn't follow itself, I don't think you'll be able to pay me my contract, so I'll demand it to be bigger so I have a bigger unpaid dollar amount. And if bankruptcy happens in TEW the worker doesn't have a contract with the company anymore anyways, whether it was Written or PPA. In the real world, a worker would have more chance of getting $ from a bankrupt company with written deal than with a verbal agreement. And I think Nick hit on a valuable point, have the smaller companies not be able to sign written deals for as long, I'd even go for 3 months for Regional and 6 for Cult.
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You call being on the road 300 days a year "settling down"? You said the wrestlers would probably prefer to work in one area. But WWE goes all around the world. How is that one area? Many TNA workers (those that haven't already earned enough money in WWE/WCW to support themselves) still work the independent scene, although TNA restricts where they can go (though they are starting to get looser about it). So the only ones there who work in one area have spent years on the road already, and live in Florida. I understand what you meant, but you didn't make a great argument. I live in Los Angeles, and I know plenty of workers who really don't leave Southern California, because they have work from all the promotions there. Is that settled down? They still work for at least 3 promotions, but they're all in Southern California. Imagine if one promotion wanted to sign one of those workers onto a written contract. The worker would, if he were smart, or even not totally stupid, figure out about how much money they make in a month from working from all their promotions, and then ask for a contract of about that much per month. Any less, and he would be an idiot.
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[QUOTE=Akki;391567]You call being on the road 300 days a year "settling down"? You said the wrestlers would probably prefer to work in one area. But WWE goes all around the world. How is that one area? Many TNA workers (those that haven't already earned enough money in WWE/WCW to support themselves) still work the independent scene, although TNA restricts where they can go (though they are starting to get looser about it). So the only ones there who work in one area have spent years on the road already, and live in Florida. I understand what you meant, but you didn't make a great argument. I live in Los Angeles, and I know plenty of workers who really don't leave Southern California, because they have work from all the promotions there. Is that settled down? They still work for at least 3 promotions, but they're all in Southern California. Imagine if one promotion wanted to sign one of those workers onto a written contract. The worker would, if he were smart, or even not totally stupid, figure out about how much money they make in a month from working from all their promotions, and then ask for a contract of about that much per month. Any less, and he would be an idiot.[/QUOTE] I agree and disagree. Yes a worker could work for a 3 promotions in the same area and cut down on his travel expenses, but unless he is a major player in all three promotions, and even then, he has to consider the possibility that 1, 2 or even all 3 of the promotions, might not use him that month. And many time with smaller promotions, you don't know if you'll be wrestling, until you show up that night. So said worker could show up to all 3 promotions events and end up with $0 of income. Or he could get hurt in the first promotions event, miss the 2nd and 3rd promotions events because of the injury, and perhaps be out for several months. So here then is the question, say you could possible work up to 3 shows at $350 a show making $1150, $700, $350 or $0. or you had the choice to make a sure $1,000 or even $750 a month? Which would you choose. I don't know if any of you played Wrespri, but the one thing that I really hated about that, was nights when I wouldn't be used, for 3 reasons, you don't get paid, you don't have a chance to gain in ring skills, you can't get more over. For one thing a guy with a written contract would be more likely to get used, as you've already paid him. And if you don't use him, well he is still gonna get all his money anyways.
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I don't understand why smaller promotions should have to pay more for a written contract then the big boys. Money is money and if a small promotion is willing to pay the market value for a worker then good for them. The only thing beyond money that should come into play is potential exposure. I can understand a young worker not wanting to tie himself down to a smaller company just in case a large promotion wants him. That's why things like personality, loyalty, age, popularity, and ability should be determining factors. Everything else, ability to pay, number of working dates, is too fluid in this game to be a factor. Edit: I forgot about merchandising which would have to be factored in. If a workers wants 5% in a large fed he would obviously want a higher percentage in a smaller fed or even a larger base salary to make up for that.
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I like your point Rams, if I want $1,000 a month I don't care who it is that's paying me my $1,000/month as long as someone wants to pay me that. Now if my goal is to make into a major company then I wouldn't want to be tied into a smaller company for a long period of time, but the best way for one of the big boys to notice me would be to work well in one of those smaller companies, and probably get myself over. Where/how am I more likely to get over, working ppa for NYCW, CZCW, and MAW once a month, or working weekly in a DAVE, USPW? Now if DAVE/USPW want to sign me to a written deal to make me their star player for 6months/3months doesn't that advance my goal of eventually making it to the big leagues? Or maybe I'm ****y enough to think that I'm the guy, that's gonna take DAVE/USPW to that next lvl, and when I do I'll be rewarded for it. Who knows maybe that could even be a contract incentive, where if the company goes to the next lvl the worker gets either a lump sum bonus, or a salary accelerator.
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djlightning, I think that the sort of workers you're thinking of, the one that show up and might not get paid, and the promotions that do that, with no pre-advertised cards and just random booking depending on who shows up, are way too small to be in a TEW database. There are probably a thousand wrestlers who have other jobs, who go to a show looking to get paid if the booker needs them. And there are probably a hundred promotions that put on mostly thrown-together shows every month. Those are the ones that might start with 1 or 0 popularity in TEW. Most of them aren't going to make it into a mod. The workers that are included in TEW are the ones that are somewhat known and who are used pretty often if they're in an indy or three. And the promotions are the ones that will advertise their cards beforehand, pay their workers, and all that good stuff. Think about it now. In TEW terms, the wrestlers are likely to be working a few times a month, making money each time. Especially a worker who you're going to want to sign to a written contract. So the contract they'll want from you should be about as much as they'd make working normally. I know you're thinking of it in real life terms, but this is a game. How likely is it that the workers you're talking about, who don't know if they'll get paid, would get a written contract offer, anyway?
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You're right that most guys like that wouldn't get a written contract, but perhaps you been a visionary, see this guy as the promotions major play for the next ten years. You want to start pushing him to the moon, but do you really want to take that chance if you know that he'll walk or could really soon. Is it really that unrealistic that a few guys would be willing to sign written deals with Regional/Cult level promotions. Remember I'm not suggesting unlimited deals for those levels, but I don't see 10 for cult and 5 for Regional as unreasonable. It gives the company a nice stable base to work with, whether you use them as Sam Strong did to bring in some older Vets with drawing power, or you use them as DAVE has to lock up your most talented workers, or if you want to use the to protect your future stars. I agree with most peoples comments here at least to some extent. Here's how I think it should look: 10 contracts for cult, 5 for regional promotions, nothing for promotions lower than regional. A minimum $ amount for all written contracts I'd say $1000, the reason I feel this way, is otherwise it's to easy to lock up low overness, highly talented workers for low wages then get them hughly over, well paying them less than $300 a month. For Cult workers would only sign 6 month written contracts, for regional 3 months. Personality and business sense should play a role in their contract demands with promotions lower that National. There should be more things you can promise to people in contract negitions to get them to agree to written contracts. Basically, signing workers to written contracts would be available, would be challenging, but also could be rewarding to both you and the worker, and you'd have to choose carefully who you sign to these deals, because they are limited, sort of like how TV Networks will limit how many shows they think you can run.
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I agree, although I think the minimums should be like Remi described them. And Local and Small should also be able to offer written contracts, but at a much higher cost. There also shouldn't be a limit to the amount of contracts. If you can afford 20 written contracts without shooting yourself in the foot (and the head), then go ahead.
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[QUOTE=Akki;391762]I agree, although I think the minimums should be like Remi described them. And Local and Small should also be able to offer written contracts, but at a much higher cost. There also shouldn't be a limit to the amount of contracts. If you can afford 20 written contracts without shooting yourself in the foot (and the head), then go ahead.[/QUOTE] Well I think Remi might of went a bit extreme on his ten times what I can get any where else, maybe for the "Egomanic, Selfish, Jackass", but like I said, most workers wouldn't want to bankrupt there employer, just because the employer wants them to be the main man. I could see the wanting to capture some oppurtinity cost but, I would think it has to be reasonable. If they are willing to work for a WWE for $1000 a month, then he should be willing to work for close to that amount for anyone? Is it really that much better to be a jobber for WWE, than a star for ECW? If you think about it how many guys had WWE contracts but never became really popular, mostly because they were kept at the low in of the card for too long. Where many who came in from ECW rose up quite quickly because they already had the following from ECW. And maybe not strict limit on the amount of contracts, but make it harder to keep getting guys to sign them. Here's why I come to you and say I want to give you a written deal and make you one of my main stars, currently no one on the roster has a written deal, so you're like yea I must be really special. Now if I did then same thing after I have 10 guys already on written contracts that wouldn't seem quite so special.
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[QUOTE=Akki;391762]I agree, although I think the minimums should be like Remi described them. And Local and Small should also be able to offer written contracts, but at a much higher cost. There also shouldn't be a limit to the amount of contracts. If you can afford 20 written contracts without shooting yourself in the foot (and the head), then go ahead.[/QUOTE] Again I'll state that I do not see a reason that a smaller promotion should have to pay more total for a worker then a global one. If a worker wants 7,000 a month then the size of the promotion shouldn't always effect that price aside from potential income from merchandising. For example a younger worker who doesn't want to tie himself down to a smaller promotion for too long may ask for more then usual or take a discount from a global promotion in exchange for exposure. Like wise an aging vet who wants to stay in the biz but doesn't want or isn't wanted by the big promotions might take less. By making a blanket rule that states a smaller promotion always has to pay more you make it less realistic and factor out many of the elements already in this game. (Adam gave the wrestlers a personality, lets use it.) I agree with you though about restricting the number. It's foolish to put a restriction on that. There are no restrictions on exclusive contracts and they are just as at risk if the company folds.
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[QUOTE=djlightning;391783]Well I think Remi might of went a bit extreme on his ten times what I can get any where else, maybe for the "Egomanic, Selfish, Jackass", but like I said, most workers wouldn't want to bankrupt there employer, just because the employer wants them to be the main man. I could see the wanting to capture some oppurtinity cost but, I would think it has to be reasonable. If they are willing to work for a WWE for $1000 a month, then he should be willing to work for close to that amount for anyone? Is it really that much better to be a jobber for WWE, than a star for ECW? If you think about it how many guys had WWE contracts but never became really popular, mostly because they were kept at the low in of the card for too long. Where many who came in from ECW rose up quite quickly because they already had the following from ECW. And maybe not strict limit on the amount of contracts, but make it harder to keep getting guys to sign them. Here's why I come to you and say I want to give you a written deal and make you one of my main stars, currently no one on the roster has a written deal, so you're like yea I must be really special. Now if I did then same thing after I have 10 guys already on written contracts that wouldn't seem quite so special.[/QUOTE] By using the personality elements in the game along with age and ability I think it will be pretty hard to find a lot of guys willing to sign written contracts with smaller promotions. It's also going to be pretty expensive to carry too many written contracts when you consider most small promotions can only afford to put on one show a month. For the most part I envision written contracts as a way for smaller companies to prevent larger companies from stealing their top talent or to bring in veterans who want a guaranteed pay check.
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One more thing in regards to the who much you should have to pay workers to sign. I think that for a worker that's unemployed, or only working for you should not be demanding a ton of extra money that they could be losing, but currently aren't making. Where if you want to sign someone who is already working for 3 companies then those other contracts should factor in, but I still disagree with Remi, idea that the amount doubles automatically based on size below cult, or that a cult.
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