CJ_S Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 I've converted a mod I was playing in TEW07 that I've basically put together for my own ammusement. Anyway, I'm just going through it now, updating things etc and thought I'd check ROH's product, which I'm pretty sure I just set in myself, and seen as I'm only vaguely familiar with the company through watching years-old matches on Fight Network, I could have all this wrong: The product I have is: Key Feature - Pure Heavy - Cult / Modern Medium - Lucha, Realism, Risque, Daredevil Low - Hardcore Very Low - Comedy None - everything else. Anyway, I check the new analysis feature (which, btw, is fantastic), and I'm told this: "Means fans will expect all wrestlers to be packaged with a propper gimmick." "Will attract fans who won't be keen on gimmicks" :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: Please explain if I'm being really stoopid, but does this mean fans are going to turn up to ROH shows and say "We hate gimmicks, but damn it, Danielson, you'd better have one or else!" Or is it that only certain parts of the crowd will dislike gimmicks? Also, does the product I have look like a decent assesment of ROH, or could someone suggest improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D16NJD16 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 On paper that seems like a totally accurate description of Ring Of Honor's product. Try playing with it a little more to get one of those removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ_S Posted June 12, 2008 Author Share Posted June 12, 2008 Switching cult to medium seems to do the trick..sound OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D16NJD16 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Yes? But no sure that sounds fine to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Wolf Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 The cult makes them want gimmicks. The realism makes the fans not care about them But this is very true to RoH shows. You have some folks who like gimmicks and you have some folks who could care less. You have to find a balance. Although since pure is mostly used for European Style ground wrestling I don't see why it would be the Key Feature of RoH. McGuiness is the only one who fights in that style and half the crowd chants get a new move when he's in the ring. I posted this thread early you can see what's what for products [URL="http://67.19.230.90/~arles/forum/showthread.php?t=32389"]Product Information[/URL] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricAdams Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 I would drop lucha and cult down a level each and risque down two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D16NJD16 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Yeah I mean, ROH fans did **** on that "Rape" angle, so even if risque stuff is booked occasionally they dont seem to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisWest Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 [QUOTE=D16NJD16;440123]Yeah I mean, ROH fans did **** on that "Rape" angle, so even if risque stuff is booked occasionally they dont seem to like it.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's weird that people took it so serious. I thought it was hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcK Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 I'm not sure Pure would be accurate, they bill it as competitive wrestling but really there are cheaty finishes all the time amongst the heels (Larry Sweeney etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabataged Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Id say ROH's key feature is Modern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Wolf Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 [QUOTE=sabataged;440157]Id say ROH's key feature is Modern.[/QUOTE] I'm with you on that one. The shows I've been too in NYC almost the whole first half of the show before the intermission has at least one flier in it. And then there are still fliers in the second half but not as many. I think Cult is fine at heavy they are a pretty cult promotion\ try this Key Feature - Modern Heavy - Cult Medium - Realism, Daredevil Low - Hardcore, Pure, Lucha Very Low - Comedy, Risque None - everything else. Since I don't have TEW handy at work this may not be exactly what I' looking for. The amount of Realism may not allow for cheating finishes so you may either have to drop it to Low or add some mainstream to the product equal to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennie Bomb Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Hardcore should be heavy, I think. A significant portion of their product is based around the kind of angles and matches that constitute a Hardcore product. It's a damn sight bigger part of their product than realism. Plus, Necro Butcher. I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Wolf Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 [QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;440195]Hardcore should be heavy, I think. A significant portion of their product is based around the kind of angles and matches that constitute a Hardcore product. It's a damn sight bigger part of their product than realism. Plus, Necro Butcher. I rest my case.[/QUOTE] Hardcore is generally weapons and purposeful blood. Which in all the shows I've seen in New York there has been very little of. One Tables match and one Anything goes match. Sure there matches are intense and dangerous so the intensity and danger should be set high but I think hardcore is just fine at low, maybe realism should be knocked down to low, the risk with that is begining to have matches based on popularity instead of skill. Plus Necro Butcher, one man who is known for his hardcore style does not make a whole promotion more hardcore, at least in my opinion. RoH doesn't have kendo sticks and chairs and barbed wire in such frequency to warrant a higer level of hardcore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennie Bomb Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 The Necro Butcher line is what most people term a "joke". I stand by my point, though. Hardcore is and always has been an important part of the RoH product. Weapons are used regularly. Matches are blown off in violent and/or bloody gimmick matches. They run angles with hideous amounts of blood loss. They certainly do more than just "low". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Dozier Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Modern is definitely ROH's key feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricAdams Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 I would keep Hardcore at low. There's never more than one Falls Count Anywhere or Fight Without Honor per show. However, if anyone is a fan of ROH and hardcore, you HAVE to see Transform. I was there for that and sweet zombie Jesus that main event...:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Wolf Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 [QUOTE=EricAdams;440258]I would keep Hardcore at low. There's never more than one Falls Count Anywhere or Fight Without Honor per show. However, if anyone is a fan of ROH and hardcore, you HAVE to see Transform. I was there for that and sweet zombie Jesus that main event...:eek:[/QUOTE] Yeah I've been quite a few shows in New York and seen quite a few DVDs and i would say they rarely have more then one or two matches per show if that. And just because you hit some person at the end of a match with a pair of brass knucks it doesn't make the match hardcore. I don't think what is truly hardcore ala ECW has ever really been a massively important part of RoH. Hardcore at medium would mean that probably at least half the show would be some kind of bloody weapon filled gimmick match and that just isn't the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D16NJD16 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 Well you all know how smart marks can be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wayne Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 [QUOTE=Jennie Bomb;440195]Hardcore should be heavy, I think. A significant portion of their product is based around the kind of angles and matches that constitute a Hardcore product. It's a damn sight bigger part of their product than realism. Plus, Necro Butcher. I rest my case.[/QUOTE] this puts them on the same level of CZW, which clearly isn't the case. No offense, but how often do you watch RoH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Lyrium Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Just to clarify, getting back to the original point of the post (if anyone can remember what it was ¬_¬), those messages merely mean that "some" fans want to see that particular item. So it means you'll attract BOTH fans who like gimmicks, and fans who don't. It's not a contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Lethal Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 they're doing a lot of Daredevil/spotfest based matches last year, some cards are based on that and then a Bryan Danielson match, lol. Which is another thing who divides ROH fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedpropaganda Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 KEY FEATURE: Modern HEAVY: Pure & Realism That is what I used on an old ROH game for 2007 and it worked pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripperm Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 [QUOTE=maskedpropaganda;441046]KEY FEATURE: Modern HEAVY: Pure & Realism That is what I used on an old ROH game for 2007 and it worked pretty well.[/QUOTE] being a ROH mark since 2003 and I have all the dvd's I can say this is the best way to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Aussie Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I read the title and just burst out laughing: Ring of Honor fans not being picky? Perish the thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennie Bomb Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 [quote=Michael Wayne;440289]this puts them on the same level of CZW, which clearly isn't the case. No offense, but how often do you watch RoH?[/quote] I've seen plenty of RoH shows. Hardcore wrestling has been a significant thread throughout RoH history, as much as you might want to forget the Carnage Crew/Natural Born Sinners/Da Hit Squad garbage in the early days, all the way through stuff like the Raven/Punk feud to the highly disgusting Age of the Fall deal. I'd reconsider heavy, though. Medium's probably more accurate. It's certainly more important to the RoH product than "Low", at least, and it's not less important than Lucha or daredevil. Off the top of my head, I'd probably have this as an approximation of the RoH product: Key: Modern Heavy: Cult, Traditional Medium: Hardcore, Risque, Daredevil, Pure, Lucha Low: Comedy Very Low: Nothing. None: The rest I don't have access to TEW 08 to test this out at the moment, but I think that'd approximate the RoH product. Modern as Key and Cult as heavy are pretty self-explanatory and non-controversial. RoH has a product that is very much tailored to the wrestling fans of today and attempt to meet the needs of the smartened up, internet-savvy fan with what they put out. In return, they have a very committed, vocal, niche fanbase. They don't have a large number of fans, but the ones they have are mostly there for life. Traditional is probably something that most people won't ascribe to RoH (the OP didn't even include it), but really, it's something that underpins the essence of the company - the presentation and structure of matches and storylines is very much stripped down to the basic traditions of wrestling - their matches and storylines for the most part have a defined beginning, middle and end int heir structure, and they appreciate the notion of building to a crescendo. They do very much take elements of traditional wrestling storytelling and integrate them into their product. Then we have hardcore, risque, daredevil, lucha and pure. These are all elements that make up the individual RoH show, but they don't permeate the entire rpoduct, rather, they are the toppings on the modern/cult/traditional base of the RoH pizza. On most shows, you can find one or more matches or angles spiced up with these flavours, in order to provide something a little different with a change of pace. So, for example, you could have your hardcore/risque Age of the Fall angle or match, your luchaesque Dragon Gate 6 man tag, your daredevil scramble match and your pure-style AmDrag v. *Insert Japanese Wrestler Here* match on a show, mixing it up with matches that showcase your main product. Comedy is set to low, because RoH really doesn't go there very often, but they do occasionally so it can't be ignored. They also don't do it well, but that's neither here nor there... Everything else is left off. Whilst some might question leaving realism off, I personally consider that to be the last thing you'd associate with RoH. RoH's product is aimed at people who know wrestling is fake. They know they appeal to these people, and thus, they don't pretend it isn't. They do not structure their matches as if they are real, they structure them in a manner designed to make sense in the context of a professional wrestling story. Wins and losses are presented as important only in the context of how wrestling considers them important. They use a lot of unrealistic wrestling moves that would blow the illusion of realism but get the crowd chanting "This is awesome!". In short, their entire product is presented with a wink and a nod to their most committed fans, to the point that I'd actually argue that they're pretty much the shining example of anti-realism in the real world. (By the way, I'll admit to being rather in the dark over CZW, but their reputation would incidate that Hardcore would be a key part of their product, would it not?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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