Product help

[Nevermore]

Okay, having a few issues updating my ECW Worldwide product for 2008. This is what I currently have. [B]Traditional:[/B] Medium [B]Mainstream: [/B]Medium [B]Comedy: [/B]Low [B]Cult: [/B]Heavy [B]Risque: [/B]Low [B]Modern: [/B]Heavy [B]Realism: [/B]None [B]Hyper Realism: [/B]None [B]Hardcore: [/B]Key Feature [B]Lucha: [/B]Heavy [B]Pure: [/B]None [B]Daredevil: [/B]Medium What I'm looking for is a product where my hardcore guys are generally the marquee types. For instance, Raven and Rhino are topping the cards often. I would also like high-flyers (both luchadores and super juniors) to get some decent midcard ratings (B- or B) to bolster the cards. Currently, the latter is happening but the hardcore brawlers/psychopaths can't seem to put on better than a B+ despite A (or A*) overness and very high stats (A in hardcore). Second, for some reason Raven's promos, which I used to use quite often to pull out some sweet ratings, are only achieving C+. This is in spite of the fact that he is rated A* in both Mic Skills and charisma and has A* overness in the area I'm running. So, any ideas? Thanks in advance. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Nevermore]

Okay, I am gonna shamelessly bump this in the hope that someone is more adept that I am :o. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Guest cmdrsam]

In today's news, nevermore bumps self. Film at 11.:p

[Remianen]

It aint that kinda party this time around. What you want is specifically what the game is coded against producing. You want A/A* guaranteed and TEW08 is designed to make you WORK for that. If you want Raven to churn out A* rated promos, get his momentum to A/A*. I don't think there is a product that'll let you circumvent the game's design. A* is the cream of the crop, the best of the best. Having it happen multiple times on every show makes it old hat. 08 is meant to simulate that. I believe you can bring Modern and Lucha down to Medium though. Heavy elements are those things you're basing your booking around. Your key features are what your promotion is best known for. I think you may be well served to bring Cult up to Key as well unless this is ECW as you interpret it. I don't think the downside to Cult differs from Heavy to Key so there wouldn't really be a difference. Perhaps it's the realism (or lack thereof) that's hindering your brawler types? Besides the game's design, that is.

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=Remianen;443395]It aint that kinda party this time around. What you want is specifically what the game is coded against producing. You want A/A* guaranteed and TEW08 is designed to make you WORK for that. If you want Raven to churn out A* rated promos, get his momentum to A/A*.[/QUOTE] Fairplay, I guess. I'm not expecting A*s but he, at least, managed consistent B+ angles last time around. I'll have a play with what you've suggested, though, so ta ;). Much appreciated. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Malioc]

[QUOTE=Remianen;443395]It aint that kinda party this time around. What you want is specifically what the game is coded against producing. You want A/A* guaranteed and TEW08 is designed to make you WORK for that. If you want Raven to churn out A* rated promos, get his momentum to A/A*.[/QUOTE] Still, the rating of angles doesn't convince me at the moment. It seems, that it's not just the momentum, but the popularity that [I]always[/I] defines the success of an angle. I was really irritated, when a great mic work talent of mine brought home an E in his first angle. That makes not only the entertainment [I]skills[/I] secondary, it's also not very realistic. While I understand, that popularity is often important to make an angle good (otherwise most viewers / fans just don't care), the entertainment itself has also it's effects and can bring a completly new face quite over without even give him popularity support. Just look how over Santino became over the last couple of months. It helped, that he had some famous "opponents", but most of his overness comes solely from his entertainment talent. That's something, where TEW totally fails atm. If you put a young entertainment talent in some angles, he should at least get solid D ratings. Instead it becomes a [I]total[/I] disaster. So I understand quite well, why some here have problems with the ratings, - because atm I share their discontent ... and almost forego any angle, despite I have enough talents and would enjoy more angles in my shows.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Malioc;443451]Still, the rating of angles doesn't convince me at the moment. It seems, that it's not just the momentum, but the popularity that [I]always[/I] defines the success of an angle. I was really irritated, when a great mic work talent of mine brought home an E in his first angle. That makes not only the entertainment [I]skills[/I] secondary, it's also not very realistic. While I understand, that popularity is often important to make an angle good (otherwise most viewers / fans just don't care), the entertainment itself has also it's effects and can bring a completly new face quite over without even give him popularity support. Just look how over Santino became over the last couple of months. It helped, that he had some famous "opponents", but most of his overness comes solely from his entertainment talent. That's something, where TEW totally fails atm. If you put a young entertainment talent in some angles, he should at least get solid D ratings. Instead it becomes a [I]total[/I] disaster. So I understand quite well, why some here have problems with the ratings, - because atm I share their discontent ... and almost forego any angle, despite I have enough talents and would enjoy more angles in my shows.[/QUOTE] Solid D ratings? You do realize that solid D ratings would be TOTALLY broken in a Local sized fed, don't you? It is fairly easy to find workers with good to great entertainment skills but little to no overness. Now, bring those workers into a Mom & Pop Rasslin' Federation and let them put on their "solid D rated" angles and see what happens. Your Santino example is flawed because even now, many casual wrestling fans have NFC who he is. That young entertainment talent you mention has to EARN his ratings. Think of some of the best talkers of the last 15 years. Did they all pop out of the figurative womb rockin' the mic? No. Stone Cold had his Royal Rumble blowup but prior to that, he wasn't even allowed to speak! Anyone remember Rocky Maivia? Did that kid have any resemblance whatsoever to The Rock? You want guarantees where none exist in reality. Solid D ratings minimum? In what size fed? In TEW08, it seems that momentum is MUCH more important than it's ever been previously. It fits with the way I've always personally used to define momentum vs overness/popularity (i.e. overness/popularity is how well known a worker is. Momentum is how much people want to actually SEE that worker. Thus, a worker with A* momentum produces advance booked matches rated higher because people actually want to SEE that worker). My angles rate about where I expect them to. An entertainment based angle with Wanda Fish or Cherry Bomb is going to rate highly (look at their entertainment skills and right now in my game, they're running at B/B- overness). People lower on the card, do their angles in dark time or use a manager. I don't expect a worker's skill to be the primary thing an angle is rated on. I don't care how good they are on the mic, if nobody knows who the heck they are, no one's going to care to see them on the stick. Thus, you get F and E ratings but many times, it's still improving the worker's overness so it's not a bad thing (unless the angle was really short).

[TEWFan]

Since I dont want to clog the board with another product help topic, I was having this crazy idea last night to try and make a "Wrestling Society X" type promotion in the Cornellverse. You know what I'm getting at, I need input from you guys regarding what the key elements of the product should be. Gimme a couple sample layouts of how you would make the product and maybe I will get my head around it and make it happen.

[mjdgoldeneye]

[QUOTE=TEWFan;443496]Since I dont want to clog the board with another product help topic, I was having this crazy idea last night to try and make a "Wrestling Society X" type promotion in the Cornellverse. You know what I'm getting at, I need input from you guys regarding what the key elements of the product should be. Gimme a couple sample layouts of how you would make the product and maybe I will get my head around it and make it happen.[/QUOTE] When determining product, you have to think of what type of fed you want. WSX was a very over-the-top and simplistic fed, meant to appeal to a low attention span MTV audience. It also was very "extreme". So, this is what I'd say is a good product set-up to start with: [B]Traditional:[/B] Very Low [B]Mainstream:[/B] Heavy [B]Comedy:[/B] Very Low [B]Cult:[/B] Medium [B]Risque:[/B] Low [B]Modern:[/B] Key Feature [B]Realism:[/B] Very Low [B]Hyper Realism:[/B] None [B]Hardcore:[/B] Heavy [B]Lucha:[/B] Very Low [B]Pure:[/B] None [B]Daredevil:[/B] Heavy WSX was a 30 minute TV show and not big on match development or psychology, so I'd say match lengths should be around 5/8/12 minutes. There were very few angles, so shows should be 80-100% matches. Does that help? [QUOTE=Remianen;443495]In TEW08, it seems that momentum is MUCH more important than it's ever been previously. It fits with the way I've always personally used to define momentum vs overness/popularity (i.e. overness/popularity is how well known a worker is. Momentum is how much people want to actually SEE that worker. Thus, a worker with A* momentum produces advance booked matches rated higher because people actually want to SEE that worker). [/QUOTE] That's a realistic way of looking at it. One example that I think may fit this logic when Kurt Angle (and just about everyone else) went to TNA. Kurt (and Booker T, etc.) is very well known. He was a freakin' Main Eventer in WWE for years. However, he was in a new fed. He was booked very poorly. Therefore, he had very little momentum. Although he's super popular, a great worker, and pretty decent on the mic, he did little to nothing to raise the popularity of TNA. (TEW uses segment ratings to gauge of "good" a show was in terms of raising popularity in areas it is seen. "Vince Russo Syndrome" and TNA's other flaws prevented Kurt (among others) from reaching their potential.)

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=TEWFan;443496]Since I dont want to clog the board with another product help topic, I was having this crazy idea last night to try and make a "Wrestling Society X" type promotion in the Cornellverse. You know what I'm getting at, I need input from you guys regarding what the key elements of the product should be. Gimme a couple sample layouts of how you would make the product and maybe I will get my head around it and make it happen.[/QUOTE] WSX would be Modern and Daredevil as Key Features (maybe Modern as Heavy with Daredevil as the key feature). Heavy Cult and Risque (exploding ring stuff isn't typically mainstream friendly). So, something like this: Key Feature: Daredevil Heavy: Modern, Cult, Risque Medium: Lucha, Hardcore Everything else at 'none', though you can season to taste (just don't take anything above 'Low'). Problem (if you wanna call it that) with WSX is that it had a sideshow feel to it. It was too Risque to be traditional and too cult-like to be mainstream. And Malioc, my previous post wasn't meant to be an attack of any kind. I was just trying to explain how guarantees would essentially turn back the clock to TEW05. Anyone who has played that game could tell stories about words like 'cutting edge' and 'sex sells' and how those guarantees led to completely broken game mechanics. A very entertaining wrestler already has a built in advantage in that they can generate overness and momentum both in the ring and outside of it. Contrast that with a Steve Flash type who can only do it one way. So all you need to do is get that worker some overness and voila! You have a relatively high ratings producer.

[Malioc]

[QUOTE=Remianen;443495]Solid D ratings? You do realize that solid D ratings would be TOTALLY broken in a Local sized fed, don't you? It is fairly easy to find workers with good to great entertainment skills but little to no overness. Now, bring those workers into a Mom & Pop Rasslin' Federation and let them put on their "solid D rated" angles and see what happens.[/quote] In a Local sized fed, a "D" might be too much. But for example in my present position, a Cult fed with overall C-ratings in matches and B- and C+ as overall ratings, D would be appropriate, because the fans normally spent as much awareness on the single segments, as good as the overall show is. So, if WWE just puts a new face out there, he [I]can[/I] go from "0" to ... okay, let's say, "75". It wouldn't ruin the ratings, as long as the gimmick / appearence works. TEW would translate that into "momentum", I guess. So, when a Local Sized promotion brings someone out, who's a capable entertainer, he can't achieve much. (still, he should get an average reaction) But if a company has good marketing - and maybe can create a good momentum - a wrestler doesn't need much overness to be at least entertaining. Because the awareness isn't only created by popularity, but also by the feds marketing, commentary and standing. [QUOTE=Remianen;443495]Your Santino example is flawed because even now, many casual wrestling fans have NFC who he is. That young entertainment talent you mention has to EARN his ratings. [/quote] I'm not an expert of how well-known Santino is today. But if he's on the screen, people don't switch off afaik. That's, what the ratings should symbolize. - Another example - this time in TNA - is their new Knockouts division. They didn't put much effort into building Angelina Love and Velvet Sky (prime example) up (contrary to maybe Gail Kim or Awesome Kong). But their gimmick and performance alone created (so much momentum and therefore) drawing power, that they - despite relatively unknown - became the most interesting point of the show. It wasn't popularity, it was solely entertainment talent, appearence and gimmick - in TNA with their necessary marketing. - Or maybe take Larry Sweeney, who didn't got over by wrestling, but with his style in RoH (for example). So far TEW isn't able to simmulate this, imo. Instead TEW punishs any segment with an entertaining talent, if he doesn't already have MAIN EVENT popularity. That's far from reality, I think. [QUOTE=Remianen;443495]Think of some of the best talkers of the last 15 years. Did they all pop out of the figurative womb rockin' the mic? No. Stone Cold had his Royal Rumble blowup but prior to that, he wasn't even allowed to speak! Anyone remember Rocky Maivia? Did that kid have any resemblance whatsoever to The Rock? You want guarantees where none exist in reality. Solid D ratings minimum? In what size fed?[/quote] Both are examples for guys, who didn't have the right gimmick. That might be the key problem in TEW. Momentum depends too much on matches, while in reality momentum depends more often on gimmick (what has a too small influence in TEW, imo) or just "luck". In most cases matches only support momentum, bury it or let it fluctuate. [QUOTE=Remianen;443495]In TEW08, it seems that momentum is MUCH more important than it's ever been previously. It fits with the way I've always personally used to define momentum vs overness/popularity (i.e. overness/popularity is how well known a worker is. Momentum is how much people want to actually SEE that worker. Thus, a worker with A* momentum produces advance booked matches rated higher because people actually want to SEE that worker).[/QUOTE] Well, so far my angles always brought my momentum down, instead of up, despite the workers I put into angles always had good entertainment (or: mic, acting, etc) skills, too. That's why I don't really think, that momentum is the key here. - I [I]think[/I], that would be better though. The momentum should give some direction for the outcome of the angle. Of course no one wants to see my F- jobber Chris Miserior despite he has a solid C in Entertainment. But when I can put a entertainment genius (via booking and gimmick) on a D+ momentum, he should at least get D ratings, and even a C (-) once in a while. Instead he's getting an E... [QUOTE=Remianen;443495]My angles rate about where I expect them to. An entertainment based angle with Wanda Fish or Cherry Bomb is going to rate highly (look at their entertainment skills and right now in my game, they're running at B/B- overness). People lower on the card, do their angles in dark time or use a manager. I don't expect a worker's skill to be the primary thing an angle is rated on. I don't care how good they are on the mic, if nobody knows who the heck they are, no one's going to care to see them on the stick. Thus, you get F and E ratings but many times, it's still improving the worker's overness so it's not a bad thing (unless the angle was really short).[/QUOTE] That means, even though, they get terrible ratings, they at least improve? That would been my next question... ;-) Still, you said yourself, that people [I]care[/I] with "momentum". But momentum isn't equal to overness / popularity. And it's popularity, that decides over the success of my angles. P.S.: Don't worry! I like a good, reasonable debate. ;-)

[Nevermore]

Okay, Remi. I know you're not the designated expert, so, please don't take this as blame or an attack or whatnot :p. You just seem to be grasping this far better than I am. I had Raven at B+ momentum to reflect his position in my diary. As an experiment, I set it to A*. Here's what I'm not understanding. [LIST=1] [*]Product is same as above (it certainly is my modern day interpretaion of ECW) [*]Raven's overness is A* in the US (and a high A* in the Tri-State where the show is held [*]As I say, to test, I've put Raven's momentum at A* [*]His entertainment stats are at A* (A* mic, A* charisma, A acting) [*]The angle is for him (rated on Entertainment) to taung Mark Calawy (who is Not Rated - but is at A overness) [/LIST] The angle comes out at C+. This leaves me confuzzled :confused:. I have a strong talent roster but not many strong personalities. So, if someone like Raven can't pull good angles, I'm a tad boned. So, any thoughts, Remi? Cheers. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Jaded]

Jumping in for a second before Remi gets here, what's your match/angle ratio, Nevermore?

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=Jaded;444038]Jumping in for a second before Remi gets here, what's your match/angle ratio, Nevermore?[/QUOTE] 70% matches. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;443829]The angle comes out at C+. This leaves me confuzzled :confused:. I have a strong talent roster but not many strong personalities. So, if someone like Raven can't pull good angles, I'm a tad boned. So, any thoughts, Remi? Cheers. Quote The Raven Nevermore[/QUOTE] Was it the first segment of the show? If not, what ratings preceded it? The way I understood it, the man himself didn't really like seeing people able to pop off A* rated segments at the drop of a hat, with no real effort required. A* is supposed to be the thing we all strive to create....eventually. Not have thrown out multiple times on every show. Let's face it Nevermore, your diary was known for its A*s all over the place. :D Now, contrast that with J Silver's USPW diary where people read it watching the build to finally seeing Hayes vs Devine and the A* that came about as a result of that build. As I said, I don't think it's a product issue. I believe it's an issue where in 08, it takes more to produce those A* level segments. Maybe you need a hot storyline backing Raven. I just know that A/A* ratings were made a bit tougher to achieve this time around. Whether it was made tough enough to turn a formerly guaranteed A* into a C+, I have no idea. But I'm not starting from as high up as you are. My best rated angle thus far has been a C+ rated segment between two of my most over workers (B/B- overness). I'm okay with that because it can only get better. With a 70% match ratio, storylines for you are required. I don't think you could have much heat in one with your best worker producing C+s. Perhaps a build would give you the results you seek?

[sabataged]

I think it may be something to do with product/database to be honest. Because just about every Tommy Cornell interview/hype/promo I do is B+ or above.

[sabataged]

What's his gimmick? I tested your product in 08 and it said... - all wrestlers to be packaged properly with gimmick - fans wont like risky gimmicks - fans wont respond well to one-dimensional gimmicks.

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=Remianen;444225]Let's face it Nevermore, your diary was known for its A*s all over the place.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that was back on the '05 data. I've tried to make it a lot more realistic recently. Hence, why I need some decent Raven angles as my match ratings are no longer so ridiculous :p. [QUOTE=sabataged;444231]What's his gimmick? I tested your product in 08 and it said... - all wrestlers to be packaged properly with gimmick - fans wont like risky gimmicks - fans wont respond well to one-dimensional gimmicks.[/QUOTE] Dude, I think you may have just nailed it! His gimmick is "A" in risk. How did I not realise that? I'll let you know my findings. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[sabataged]

Well let me know....

[Nevermore]

Okay, after some experimenting, I'm getting some match ratings I'm pleased with. However, the Raven issue persists and it is extremely bemusing. I've tried him on six different gimmicks now (as both heel and face) - made no difference. I've put him in several "entertainment" based angles - made no difference. I've put said angles in many different locations on the card - made no difference. I even changed his ring style as a last resort - made no difference. The rating is always C or C+. Meanwhile, both Rhino and Tommy Dreamer, who have less momentum than him, less overness than him, poorer mic skills than him and poorer charisma can comfortably put on the same angles with a B/B+ rating. Could it be a bug or an issue with the data entry? Should I try deleting him from the database and re-entering him? The only reason I'm so concerend is I've delibratley updated my data to make it A LOT more challenging. Raven is one of only two guys with any real star power or charisma on my roster and I'm trying to expand in size to compete with WWF/E. Raven, one of the top draws, consistently pulling off shoddy ratings almost defeats the point in the data being the way it is. Any thoughts much appreciated. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[djthefunkchris]

Check the other stats Nevermore. Especially the Star Quality, Sex Appeal, and Menace. Compared to Dreamer and Rhino's. These are stats that have been changed a bit, and you might have found something either meant to happen, or whackiness not meant to happen. Just a wild guess.

[jeven3176]

[QUOTE=Nevermore;445166]Okay, after some experimenting, I'm getting some match ratings I'm pleased with. However, the Raven issue persists and it is extremely bemusing. I've tried him on six different gimmicks now (as both heel and face) - made no difference. I've put him in several "entertainment" based angles - made no difference. I've put said angles in many different locations on the card - made no difference. I even changed his ring style as a last resort - made no difference. The rating is always C or C+. Meanwhile, both Rhino and Tommy Dreamer, who have less momentum than him, less overness than him, poorer mic skills than him and poorer charisma can comfortably put on the same angles with a B/B+ rating. Could it be a bug or an issue with the data entry? Should I try deleting him from the database and re-entering him? The only reason I'm so concerend is I've delibratley updated my data to make it A LOT more challenging. Raven is one of only two guys with any real star power or charisma on my roster and I'm trying to expand in size to compete with WWF/E. Raven, one of the top draws, consistently pulling off shoddy ratings almost defeats the point in the data being the way it is. Any thoughts much appreciated. Quote The Raven Nevermore[/QUOTE] I'm experiencing a similar issue with Shawn Michaels in the "Montreal Screwjob" data. So far I've tried changing to a lower risk gimmick, upping reputation, and changing personality and Shawn Michaels is still producing low C High D angles. His momentum is at B and he is feuding with Steve Austin. They are both mostly A overness in America. So have you been able to up Raven's angle segments yet, if so how?

[Nevermore]

[QUOTE=jeven3176;446498]I'm experiencing a similar issue with Shawn Michaels in the "Montreal Screwjob" data. So far I've tried changing to a lower risk gimmick, upping reputation, and changing personality and Shawn Michaels is still producing low C High D angles. His momentum is at B and he is feuding with Steve Austin. They are both mostly A overness in America. So have you been able to up Raven's angle segments yet, if so how?[/QUOTE] Nah man. Colour me perplexed. Quote The Raven Nevermore

[Hyde Hill]

Type of angle is also very important if it fits your fed (e.g risk factor) and the length is long enough compared to the angle, generally taking around the average of mimimum and maximum works. Star quality, charisma, Sex Apeal and menace factor in as well and I have noticed that angles where just 1 person is rated do generally worse then multiple people being rated. I think thats in the programming somwhere as I have seen it as a concistent for example Cornell and Tyson Baine have a fued storyline is at A rating now I do an Angle with Cornell rated on Overness and Baine not rated but involved it gets a B to B+. Now I do an angle with both rated on overness It gets a B+ to an A wheres Baines overness is lower then Cornells. So I think the combination of these factors are the problem.