Matt Sydal allowed to use Shooting Star Press on 'E programming?

[Wallbanger]

Shocked me when I saw it -- I thought that was one of the 'verboten' moves in the WWE product. Perhaps this is a sign of things to come?

[G-Prime]

I was just watching that this morning, and marked out, then got pissed off because Paul London's not allowed to do it.

[ShadowedFlames]

I was scratching my head at this one. Totally did not see it coming, given the reaction after Kidman's use of it. Just makes me wonder if they are letting those who prove themselves able to use the move properly actually use it...?

[GDE71]

[url]http://67.19.230.90/~arles/forum/showthread.php?t=32865&page=2[/url] post 18 2 days ago...

[ShadowedFlames]

[QUOTE=GDE71;447295][url]http://67.19.230.90/~arles/forum/showthread.php?t=32865&page=2[/url] post 18 2 days ago...[/QUOTE] I noticed that, but I hadn't been on to check the Dog Pound. This thread I happened to see first, and then went in and saw that post. :o

[Wallbanger]

[quote=GDE71;447295][URL]http://67.19.230.90/~arles/forum/showthread.php?t=32865&page=2[/URL] post 18 2 days ago...[/quote] Congratulations, you win a cookie for mentioning it first, even if it was tangental to the thread it was in. :rolleyes::p It seems remarkable enough to discuss in its own right, along with what seems to be other subtle shifts in the E's in ring product (Michelle McCool's heel submission as an example). I'm all for a more athletic product in the ring, so these developments please me, and I'm hopeful that this is a trend that will continue.

[Guest Ransik]

The first time he makes one tiny mistake executing it... even if he just over-rotates it... he'll never be allowed to use it again. Honestly with the moves WWE has banned for them being "dangerous" the show really oughta just be a bunch of armlocks and rollups.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=Ransik;447397]The first time he makes one tiny mistake executing it... even if he just over-rotates it... he'll never be allowed to use it again. Honestly with the moves WWE has banned for them being "dangerous" the show really oughta just be a bunch of armlocks and rollups.[/QUOTE] Gotta agree here. While Kidman has never been the most safe worker in the world, banning it for a couple botches is just silly. Especially when a worker like Paul London could do it in his sleep (much like Jeff Hardy and the Swanton). It amuses me how the 'E bans a move like the vanilla piledriver because of some fear of injury when another promotion has workers doing FAR more dangerous variations (hi Kudo driver) and they don't get nearly as many injuries as WWE's roster has seen for any reason. Case in point: Matt Hardy, who has spent more time on the shelf in the last two years than his brother. Who works the more "dangerous" style? Don't recall Matt jumping off steel support girding onto an opponent. I guess it's easier to ban moves rather than educate your workers. So just give everyone a variation on everyone else's finisher (oh look, Burchill's finisher.....another neckbreaker variation). God forbid you let the workers help come up with impressive looking variations (Gory Special variation = Widow's Peak). And if I see another "diva" using another Russian Legsweep as a finish......

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=Remianen;447415]Gotta It amuses me how the 'E bans a move like the vanilla piledriver because of some fear of injury when another promotion has workers doing FAR more dangerous variations (hi Kudo driver) and they don't get nearly as many injuries as WWE's roster has seen for any reason. Case in point: Matt Hardy, who has spent more time on the shelf in the last two years than his brother. Who works the more "dangerous" style? Don't recall Matt jumping off steel support girding onto an opponent. [/QUOTE] Because the WWE's shedule is ludacris. Wear and tear comes in effect and if moves like the burning hammer or shooting star press are done often enough, you raise the chances of even more injuries. I dont like that they tone down their content, however it's where the money is at. These guys are long term investments, not one offs for an indy show. So I dont think the WWE will change its style anytime soon And Matt Hardy has jumped from steel cages. Remember his flying leg drop on Edge off the cage? It was his only win in the feud. [QUOTE]I guess it's easier to ban moves rather than educate your workers. So just give everyone a variation on everyone else's finisher (oh look, Burchill's finisher.....another neckbreaker variation). God forbid you let the workers help come up with impressive looking variations (Gory Special variation = Widow's Peak). And if I see another "diva" using another Russian Legsweep as a finish......[/QUOTE] When running a billion dollar busines that relies on the health of your workers... wouldnt you rather play it safe then sorry? Provided you're still profitable that way ofcourse.

[BurningHamster]

For the prices WWE charges for tickets, they should be crippling at least 2 workers a show. If they start losing money then cut back on steroids, silicone and fake tan.

[Self]

Agree with Afroman. Wear and tear. Hectic schedule. Protecting your investments. There's also that "Don't try this at home thing". They push that to kids, but the thing about children is that they think they know better. They're going to play wrestling, and certain moves are dangerous when not done correctly. The Piledriver is extremely dangerous if the 'victim' doesn't have his head in the right place. The Shooting Star is really tricky to do, if you don't know exactly what you're doing, you'll wind up moonsaulting the wrong direction. Also, in Matt's defense, didn't his appendix burst, then get infected? Something like that. A certain part of his recent time off wasn't an in-ring injury, that's all I'm saying. I prefer a higher-impact, TNA-like style, but I understand why WWE do things like they do. If they had more vibrant personalities I'm sure I would watch more.

[ColtCabana]

[QUOTE=Self;447493] Also, in Matt's defense, didn't his appendix burst, then get infected? Something like that. A certain part of his recent time off wasn't an in-ring injury, that's all I'm saying. [/QUOTE] He had a staph infection that caused him to miss time also.

[Franchise22]

staph infections are now banned from the wwe.

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=Remianen;447415]Gotta agree here. While Kidman has never been the most safe worker in the world, banning it for a couple botches is just silly. Especially when a worker like Paul London could do it in his sleep (much like Jeff Hardy and the Swanton). It amuses me how the 'E bans a move like the vanilla piledriver because of some fear of injury when another promotion has workers doing FAR more dangerous variations (hi Kudo driver) and they don't get nearly as many injuries as WWE's roster has seen for any reason. Case in point: Matt Hardy, who has spent more time on the shelf in the last two years than his brother. Who works the more "dangerous" style? Don't recall Matt jumping off steel support girding onto an opponent. I guess it's easier to ban moves rather than educate your workers. So just give everyone a variation on everyone else's finisher (oh look, Burchill's finisher.....another neckbreaker variation). God forbid you let the workers help come up with impressive looking variations (Gory Special variation = Widow's Peak). And if I see another "diva" using another Russian Legsweep as a finish......[/QUOTE] Pretty much... and look through the roster... exactly how many are using the reverse Russian legsweep as a finisher right now? Looking through history... the Play of the Day and the Reverse Russian are the most over-used finishers in the history of that company.

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;447426]Because the WWE's shedule is ludacris. Wear and tear comes in effect and if moves like the burning hammer or shooting star press are done often enough, you raise the chances of even more injuries. I dont like that they tone down their content, however it's where the money is at. These guys are long term investments, not one offs for an indy show. So I dont think the WWE will change its style anytime soon And Matt Hardy has jumped from steel cages. Remember his flying leg drop on Edge off the cage? It was his only win in the feud. When running a billion dollar busines that relies on the health of your workers... wouldnt you rather play it safe then sorry? Provided you're still profitable that way ofcourse.[/QUOTE] There's no reason for them to be running their workers into the ground like they do. Look at the ones working a lighter schedule... HBK... Orton... Mysterio... Undertaker... Perhaps instead of having a worker wrestle a simple style 3-5 times a week, they oughta cut that in half and let them work their own styles and actually ATTRACT a new audience. Look at all the workers who jumped from WWE to TNA for a lighter schedule. They would rather take a HUGE pay cut than cripple themselves. It's not our fault for wanting the action... it's the E's fault for not knowing when they're doing too much of it. I read the House Show reports... all I see for weeks on end are the same matches every single night... and I've been reading reports the last couple weeks that the workers just go through the motions and look bored with even being in the ring. HBK has wrestled Snitsky about a dozen times at House Shows in the last 2 months alone. It's always a variation of London/Kendrick, Holly/Rhodes, and Cryme Time every single House Show... nothing ever changes and the fans see it. It's no wonder the WWE's ratings are tanking... their thought process is "the more we do the more we make" when in fact their greatest success came from ONE 2 hour program a week with MAYBE 1 or 2 House Shows.

[Self]

I haven't seen their accounts, but I'd figure WWE cutting their House Show revenue in half, just to do something that [I]might[/I] increase their audience, is a very risky move, financially. I guess with the increased audience they can hold their house shows in bigger arenas, and perhaps profits from merchandise will go up, but I'm not sure the stockholders would like to see them take that gamble. Maybe it worked in the past, but if I was running the company, I would take a [I]lot[/I] of convincing before I'd do something like that. Also, by Reverse Russian Legsweep, you mean the Downward Spiral/Flatliner and not The Stroke, right? The thing Shelton and Kennedy both use? If so, then you're totally right, that's getting a bit ridiculous now. Personally I think ratings are tanking because they've saturated the TV market, they don't have characters vibrant enough to capture channel-hopper's attention, and they haven't fully figured out modern society's view of the good-guy, bad-guy dynamic, in a way to make people want to watch their shows (not that I have either)

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=Self;447781]I haven't seen their accounts, but I'd figure WWE cutting their House Show revenue in half, just to do something that [I]might[/I] increase their audience, is a very risky move, financially. I guess with the increased audience they can hold their house shows in bigger arenas, and perhaps profits from merchandise will go up, but I'm not sure the stockholders would like to see them take that gamble. Maybe it worked in the past, but if I was running the company, I would take a [I]lot[/I] of convincing before I'd do something like that. Also, by Reverse Russian Legsweep, you mean the Downward Spiral/Flatliner and not The Stroke, right? The thing Shelton and Kennedy both use? If so, then you're totally right, that's getting a bit ridiculous now. Personally I think ratings are tanking because they've saturated the TV market, they don't have characters vibrant enough to capture channel-hopper's attention, and they haven't fully figured out modern society's view of the good-guy, bad-guy dynamic, in a way to make people want to watch their shows (not that I have either)[/QUOTE] Which is the main reason WHY they need to cut back their over-done and ridiculous schedule. It's been publically stated that they sign talent to the roster JUST so TNA and RoH won't get to them first. So if they cut out all the workers they don't need and don't use... imagine the money they'd save! If you had a full, WWE contracted wrestler list... you could elimniate a good 1/5 of them without even batting an eye because of their lack of use... lack of contribution... and lack of interest. So say you get rid of at least 20 workers... that eliminates the need for ECW... which is becoming a huge failure. Good. That saves time and money spent on both workers, paying Sci-Fi to air it and money spent promoting the failing brand. You then cut back at least 1/3 of the House Show dates... cause quite frankly I read the reports... they're never a sell out unless they're out of the country. Even in my state where WWE only comes MAYBE once a year has NEVER been a sell out. So why waste money renting arenas, transportnig workers and equipment is anywhere from 1/4 to 1/3 of the arena is going to be tarped off? When Vince is giving away millions on TV and his daughter is spending millions on a bus to drag an infant around with her on the road... they have enough money... they don't need to put their worker's health at risk to show they're #1... they need to go back to basics and work with what brought them to the game in the first place. The only chance the E has of ever gaining lost glory is to cut out the over-use of TV time and House Shows and make the shows they have the best they can be with the best workers they have... not add more shows just to put in wrestlers to fill time no one wants to see. And not hiring lingerie models couldn't hurt either.

[Self]

I can see what you're getting at. I have no idea what their House Show draw over in the States, but I still assume their making a profit on each one. Eliminating a bunch of workers would definitely help, particularly the ones who don't, and probably never will draw money. I'm pretty sure Sci-Fi are paying them to make ECW for them though. It's filling up a place in their schedule, and they sell advertising space to put in the breaks. I don't know the exactitudes of the contract, but for any other TV show, the network would be paying the guys who make the programme. I think the Million Dollar giveaway is coming out of Vince's own pockets (and if it isn't, the stockholders should kick his ass) and I'm sure Steph is using her own (probably large) salary to pay for the bus. I don't care about their personal wealth, it's the company as a whole I'm concerned for. I'm not saying your way wouldn't work. It would probbly result in better programming that I personally would enjoy more. Writers wouldn't be stretch so thin, so only the best storylines would make it to TV. I'd LOVE to crunch the numbers on this. Just leave me alone with WWE's accounts for a few days and let me go nuts. If I had access to a magical genie I would so wish for that (and probably regret it later)

[fatallylost]

[QUOTE=Franchise22;447740]staph infections are now banned from the wwe.[/QUOTE] Also, you can't even train with their guys whilst having an appendix. BANNED!

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=Ransik;447775]There's no reason for them to be running their workers into the ground like they do. Look at the ones working a lighter schedule... HBK... Orton... Mysterio... Undertaker... Perhaps instead of having a worker wrestle a simple style 3-5 times a week, they oughta cut that in half and let them work their own styles and actually ATTRACT a new audience. Look at all the workers who jumped from WWE to TNA for a lighter schedule. They would rather take a HUGE pay cut than cripple themselves. It's not our fault for wanting the action... it's the E's fault for not knowing when they're doing too much of it. I read the House Show reports... all I see for weeks on end are the same matches every single night... and I've been reading reports the last couple weeks that the workers just go through the motions and look bored with even being in the ring. HBK has wrestled Snitsky about a dozen times at House Shows in the last 2 months alone. It's always a variation of London/Kendrick, Holly/Rhodes, and Cryme Time every single House Show... nothing ever changes and the fans see it. It's no wonder the WWE's ratings are tanking... their thought process is "the more we do the more we make" when in fact their greatest success came from ONE 2 hour program a week with MAYBE 1 or 2 House Shows.[/QUOTE] And this is why you will never run a company. Why would the E take that MASSIVE risk in cutting their schedule in something that MIGHT attract a larger audience when he would have stock holders and everyone alike telling him if he does that, they are selling their shares. Also, Taker, HBK and Mysterio are the faces of the company and have enough push within the company to request a lighter schedule. Besides, all three of them are as fragile as a wet peice of paper... do you really want your highest investment to overwork themselves like that on house shows when their are millions of dollars attatched to their names? I've always thought of ways to maybe find a fair balance where a portion takes X number of week off of house shows per year then rotate to keep everyone fresh. But outright cutting events that make a billion dollar companies alot of money isnt financially logical. It's like MLB cutting the All Star Game Weekend because A-Rod broke his arm during the Home Run Derby (God Forbid) The McMahons are playing it safe... it's whats workjed for them for years and they'll keep doing it until it stops working. And as for your comment about workers jumping ship to TNA for a lighter schedule... for every Kurt Angle you have seven Rob Van Dams who have stated numerous times he will never work for TNA and if he ever returns it will be for the WWE simply because they can afford him. It's all about putting food on the table for most guys. And havent you ever played TEW? The whole POINT to house shows is to test out matches. Its why the same wrestlers face off several times in a row. And theyre in different towns so no one notices.... that is.... since most fans actually watch the shows rather then reading about them online.

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;447864]And this is why you will never run a company. Why would the E take that MASSIVE risk in cutting their schedule in something that MIGHT attract a larger audience when he would have stock holders and everyone alike telling him if he does that, they are selling their shares. Also, Taker, HBK and Mysterio are the faces of the company and have enough push within the company to request a lighter schedule. Besides, all three of them are as fragile as a wet peice of paper... do you really want your highest investment to overwork themselves like that on house shows when their are millions of dollars attatched to their names? I've always thought of ways to maybe find a fair balance where a portion takes X number of week off of house shows per year then rotate to keep everyone fresh. But outright cutting events that make a billion dollar companies alot of money isnt financially logical. It's like MLB cutting the All Star Game Weekend because A-Rod broke his arm during the Home Run Derby (God Forbid) The McMahons are playing it safe... it's whats workjed for them for years and they'll keep doing it until it stops working. And as for your comment about workers jumping ship to TNA for a lighter schedule... for every Kurt Angle you have seven Rob Van Dams who have stated numerous times he will never work for TNA and if he ever returns it will be for the WWE simply because they can afford him. It's all about putting food on the table for most guys. And havent you ever played TEW? The whole POINT to house shows is to test out matches. Its why the same wrestlers face off several times in a row. And theyre in different towns so no one notices.... that is.... since most fans actually watch the shows rather then reading about them online.[/QUOTE] The problem is... it doesn't work. US House Show attendance is waaaay down... revenue might be up... but that's from over-priced tickets. $50 for nosebleed seats at a non-televised event? $20 to sit so far back you have to hear entrance music to know who is coming out? Last I heard it was almost $100 to sit near the front row at a WWE House Show. Now if I raise my prices... and double my events... even if attendance drops 25%... I'm still making money because I boosted my prices and doubled my employee's workload! And you contradict yourself... ANYONE would be viewed as injury prone if they're pushing their physical limits 3 to 4 times a week and never being able to heal up until they have to go home for 6 months or more to recuperate from surgery. If my WWE schedule was 1 televised match a week and 3 House Shows... 16 matches a month.... [quote] -I pull a muscle in Week 1, no chance to let it heal because I have a match the next night. -This minor injury gets worse and worse because my employer won't allow me to heal up, and for the sake of my family I can't tell him to kiss it... so I keep going. -A couple weeks go by and when ever I'm not in front of a crowd I'm limping because the muscle I pulled has weakened so bad the only way to let it heal is with a couple weeks of no strenuous activity. -The following week later I hyper-extend my knee because I was trying not to put weight on what was supposed to only be a minor injury. -The following night I have a severely weak muscle in one leg and a tweaked knee on the other leg... I mis-cue one spot... blow out my knee because I was trying to protect my opponent from being dumped on his head because I couldn't keep up with him due to nagging injuries from a schedule that won't allow me to slow down... and a schedule I can't quit if I expect to feed my family. -So now I need to have my knee scoped... doc says you're out 3-6 months and don't wrestle anymore or you'll cause permanent injury. How ever I'm under a written contract and the powers-that-be tell me that happens all the time and people wrestle for years after that with no issue. -So I get back to the grind. A bone chip is now in my elbow from landing on concrete on the arena floor and my knee swells up every night and has to be iced down for an hour at a time. -Couple months later it hurts to get out of bed and I can barely move without my adrenaline pumping... which is the only way I can even be in the ring. I have a high-profile match involving some dangerous spots... I hit the elbow once again, the bone chip causes severe nerve damage and my knee connects with the concrete floor and even with my knee pad... blows my knee out again... now I'm out for a year... and everyone calls me injury prone.[/quote] So yes... please tell me how people are injury prone when they're not allowed to heal?] And comparing TEW to real life... not a good way to go. If the WWE has to have the same match on over a dozen House Shows in a row to see if the match would look good on TV... obviously either the employer doesn't trust his employees to do their job correctly... or the employees don't do their job correctly and have to literally memorize how to work a good match with each other for weeks before they can have one 10 minute match on TV. If HBK... the man who can make Big Daddy V look decent in the ring... has to wrestle Snitsky 2-3 times a week on House Shows for a solid month in order for them to get to having ONE match on TV... shouldn't they be re-evaluating Snitsky's employment? I smoke a pack a day and wrestle once a month and I KNOW I could pull a better match with Michaels. And actually... RVD said he'd go where he felt he should go... he never said he'd turn down TNA. He said his priority now is with his wife... when she is well he will see about how he feels about where he wants to return.

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=Ransik;447872]The problem is... it doesn't work. US House Show attendance is waaaay down... revenue might be up... but that's from over-priced tickets. $50 for nosebleed seats at a non-televised event? $20 to sit so far back you have to hear entrance music to know who is coming out? Last I heard it was almost $100 to sit near the front row at a WWE House Show.[/quote] Bottom line.... the WWE continues to profit in the Billions. No matter how its done, you dont argue with billions. [quote] So yes... please tell me how people are injury prone when they're not allowed to heal?[/QUOTE] You're also forgetting that your buddy Kurt Angle was released from the WWE in order to heal properly from nagging injuries that he kept secret until it became obvious he was falling apart. Fact is, if you tell Vince you're hurt, he will not tell you to just walk it off. Legally he can't either. It is so illegal to tell an injured worker who has asked for help to keep working that if they were to sue, Vince may aswell bring a second car to the court house, because the wrestler will be riding away in the first. Guys like Benoit or Angle who continue to wrestle injured, MAKE themselves do it. Benoit said nothing to the day of his death and Angle quickly ran for TNA after being released. If they had opened their mouth, none of this would have ever happened. He is an owner... not a babysitter.

[Guest Ransik]

And I just checked the record books... WWE holds between 12-14 House Shows a month... 6 or 7 per month per brand. Including PPVs and TV... some wrestlers work 10-12 matches per month... sometimes more than that depending on if a Smackdown Match is put on a RAW House Show... the Title holders no doubt work the very max every single month. So you're looking at over a dozen matches in a month's time in the WWE... where you're hearing of a new injury every single week. I've only been able to find reports of 5 TNA House Shows this month so far... and they did a night by night tour of England to boot. On top of THAT... TNA does what what someone suggested WWE do; they rotate the roster for House Shows. In May when TNA was here... there was no; -Abyss -Angelina Love -BG James -Black Reign -Christian Cage -Consequences Creed -Eric Young -Gail Kim -Jay Lethal -Johnny Devine -Kaz -Kip James -Matt Morgan -Rellik -Rhyno -Team 3D -Tomko -Traci Brooks -Velvet Sky That's HALF the TNA roster... the other tour they did in May only included I think 3 or 4 of who was on my tour... they exchanged 3/4 for fresh workers. WWE doesn't have that luxury because their rosters are spread so thin between brands they have to mix ECW matches with their RAW and Smackdown brand House Shows... and they have over double the House Shows a month TNA has. My health... of 30% more pay?

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE=Ransik;447872]The problem is... it doesn't work. US House Show attendance is waaaay down... revenue might be up... but that's from over-priced tickets. $50 for nosebleed seats at a non-televised event? $20 to sit so far back you have to hear entrance music to know who is coming out? Last I heard it was almost $100 to sit near the front row at a WWE House Show. Now if I raise my prices... and double my events... even if attendance drops 25%... I'm still making money because I boosted my prices and doubled my employee's workload! And you contradict yourself... ANYONE would be viewed as injury prone if they're pushing their physical limits 3 to 4 times a week and never being able to heal up until they have to go home for 6 months or more to recuperate from surgery. If my WWE schedule was 1 televised match a week and 3 House Shows... 16 matches a month.... So yes... please tell me how people are injury prone when they're not allowed to heal?] [quote] And comparing TEW to real life... not a good way to go. If the WWE has to have the same match on over a dozen House Shows in a row to see if the match would look good on TV... obviously either the employer doesn't trust his employees to do their job correctly... or the employees don't do their job correctly and have to literally memorize how to work a good match with each other for weeks before they can have one 10 minute match on TV. If HBK... the man who can make Big Daddy V look decent in the ring... has to wrestle Snitsky 2-3 times a week on House Shows for a solid month in order for them to get to having ONE match on TV... shouldn't they be re-evaluating Snitsky's employment? I smoke a pack a day and wrestle once a month and I KNOW I could pull a better match with Michaels.[quote] Maybe they're uh... I dunno... scouting to see if they have chestry.... like a certain game that SIMULATES REALITY. Scouting isnt a one time gig. In all sports. People have bad days and good days. [quote]And actually... RVD said he'd go where he felt he should go... he never said he'd turn down TNA. He said his priority now is with his wife... when she is well he will see about how he feels about where he wants to return.[/QUOTE] Uhm.... no. He said "WWE is like... waaaay up here. While TNA is wwwaaay down there. I respect what they do. But I dont really follow it. In fact, I havent been following wrestling at all since I left. But if I do come back it will be for the WWE since they will probably pay me the most money. I am not interested in 'who I can work the best matches with.' And I havent been that guy since the ECW days. It's strictly business right now and has been for a long time." A paraphrase really, but its the gist of what he said. I'll find the video in the meanwhile

[AfRoMaN36]

[QUOTE]I've only been able to find reports of 5 TNA House Shows this month so far... and they did a night by night tour of England to boot. On top of THAT... TNA does what what someone suggested WWE do; they rotate the roster for House Shows. In May when TNA was here... there was no;[/QUOTE] I suggested the WWE do that but I'm not gunna kill them if they dont. I dont have stockholders threatening to sell if I take John Cena away for a few months. And TNA doesnt do what the WWE does because they cant do it successfully. If TNA could make a profit going all over the world in month they would do it. Its simple.