Why the secrets?

[BigDawg]

While some of you give Arlie low grade forupto the mine status I seen him work with leagues/people with TPF, fix problem with files sent to him in mins, ect.... as for game support he gets an A in my book.

[jksander]

Beta testers are legally gagged. They sign a non-disclosure agreement. So they won't talk, and you won't know who they are. Case closed.

[sportsfanmas]

I was going to say something to that effect, about beta testers not being able to legally give info, but I figured I'd get flamed for it. Be careful jksander, I can think of at least 3 people that have posted in this topic that will rip you a new one. They just don't get it unfortunately.

[Dirk9827]

[QUOTE=NGW4LIFE]So then you are saying you disagree with me, when I say it shouldn't kill the game developer, Arlie in this case, to post a quick update each week as to what was accomplished on the game?[/QUOTE] By the same token, would it kill you not to show greater patience? I think by placing the onus upon a developer for weekly updates in regards to game development is an unrealistic expectation. The entire process of development is hardly a linear task; new issues and unforeseen wrinkles often emerge during the testing/coding phase. While I understand your position, the sentiment that it "shouldn't kill the game developer...to post a quick update" begs several questions. What is the best use of his time? What obligation does he have to his potential customers? Does adding updates place the developer in an untenable position should promised features be later changed/pulled from the release? Finally, it is important to distinguish between software development for internal use versus software developed for mass markets. It is reasonable to bring timeline expectations to a software project for in-house use. The developer can count on a certain level of user knowledge, a general expectation of computer hardware and OS environments, (and with good planning) a specific set of expectations. For those products built for consumer channels, the bar is generally much, much higher (with a few notable exceptions) because there are a tremendous number of variables involved. Issues ranging from differences in computer hardware, OS software, firewalls, and other conflicting software make it much more difficult to build an application that can meet these demands. And this doesn't even address the desires for a rich feature set by the consumer. My company expects periodic updates on progress, but that is to be expected, as a company works under an entirely different framework of expectations for in-house development. I do not work for a software company; I work for a company that produces its own software to fulfill needs that cannot be otherwise filled by other products. The software needn't be bomb-proof because, unlike consumer packages, there is a reasonable assumption of user expertise. It is a trade-off. The company benefits from a customized software package that fulfills highly specific needs. However, the total cost is much, much higher generally since the cost for production and maintenance is absorbed entirely by the company and not spread across a large customer base. While you have every right to express your grievances, they are hardly anything new when it comes to software development. An application is like a living, breathing creature, it takes a life of its own, changes in ways that are hardly expected, and requires constant nurturing. And like raising a child, it's difficult to know when to let go. Software hardly ever is "done", there is always a feature to be added, a bug to quashed, something you wish you did differently. The only constant is time. Time marches forward and with it, goes the deadlines and release dates promised long, long ago, before issues x, y and z were ever even on the radar.

[jksander]

If I cared what anyone thought of me, I wouldn't be able to be a music critic and still walk down the street. I was just stating a legal fact. If a beta tester gave up that kind of information, Arlie and Gray Dog could sue you into oblivion, and you'd be a pariah in the text sim community forever.

[jksander]

And it sounds like what NGW4LIFE is really asking for is for the developers to take over completely all forms of public relations. Which isn't really feasible. Quite frankly, having worked with other software developers who happen to be acquaintences, I'm amazed that Arlie, Gary and Adam have been able to develop quality games while also handling the promotion of said games, the maintenance of the games, and the entire customer service aspects. Perhaps GDS in the future might want to hire someone to be a PR liason; the game developers could report to THEM and then they'd completely handle the pre-release PR. The developer could then step into the community once the game is out to handle technical issues. But again I'll repeat this ... while some of us may agree you guys have a point or two worth making, the way you've tried to make it is flawed. By calling everyone "fanboy" you've isolated yourself by immediately insulting everyone who's already here. Yes, many of us are fans of past games. No, telling you guys to rein in the personal criticism somewhat is not being a "fanboy" ... it's that many of us have figured out how to use some sense of decorum when posting online, to where we can make an argument without letting it crash into flaming.

[NGW4LIFE]

Why does everyone talk about release dates? I am not personally concerned about the release date one bit. I just think it wouldn't kill the developer to update the potential customers on the progress being made, or even the lack of it as well. Not only does it keep the information flow going. It would help hype the release even more! Just seems to me that even this simple level of customer involvement would make GDS head and shoulders above all other sim gaming makers and help drive sales. I am the sales manager for an electronics store, So driving sales is my main objective and something I happen to strive at. So I thought seeing a huge chance for GDS to be head and shoulders above everyone else, I would mention something. Instead of flaming me for supposedly attacking the Almighty Arlie, maybe some of you should think how much you'd enjoy knowing more about the progress being made on the game you are into it. and To the person that said that time could be better spent than posting a weekly update. Well I say, it would not take much time to post an update, all that would need to be said would be, "well this week I worked on feaure X and it seems to be coming together very well!" and Then maybe post a screen or two.

[GeoWar]

is this going anyplace -- pretend you have other things to do in life ..

[ortonius]

Here is a good example about misinformation and it's why people are complaining about the release. Jason says in this thread below, that he'll be posting information about graphics "pretty soon" on August 23rd. [url]http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4447[/url] Here we are 52 days later...[B]52 days[/B]...and we have no info. I don't know about you guys, but I've NEVER heard "pretty soon" in the context of 50+ days. There is a lack of information about this game and in the end it will cost the company sales. If there is a lack of communication between the developers and the fans...there is probably a lack of communication between the developers and their testers...and the developers and everyone else involved. This lack of communication doesn't bode well for a good game, much less a smooth release. The reason you take time out of your busy schedule coding, to write updates and communicate with the people that are going to buy your game...is to promote your game. As the game gets close to release, you continue to leak more information, more screens, more special things about the game...so that when it releases, you hit a peak of frenzy and have a ton of people that want to order your game the minute it is released. There is more to owning a company than just developing a product and being able to sell it...unfortunately, the people involved with this project haven't figured this out.

[NGW4LIFE]

[QUOTE=GeoWar]is this going anyplace -- pretent you have other things to do in life ..[/QUOTE] Yeah it's trying to wake you "fanboys" out of your blind worship

[sportsfanmas]

OK, I can't make it any clearer than this. Yes, we all want this game to be out. Yes, we all want info. but face it guys, it's not gonna happen until Arlie is ready. Talking and complaining about it is going to do no good than to cause more flaming wars and what-not. Just shut up about it, and wait. If you don't want to wait, that's fine. I'm sure somebody else will appreciate your business. As jksander said, the beta testers CAN NOT give out info, or they can be sued. So for those of you complaining, you have 2 options: either wait and deal with it like the rest of us have to do, or take your business elsewhere. That's all I can say about it.

[NGW4LIFE]

No, there's a 3rd option. No one has to support Arlie and buy his game if he insists on treating his customers like pieces of ****

[sportsfanmas]

You might want to reread my post. My 2nd option clearly states, take your business elsewhere. Duh! That's the same thing as not buying this game and not supporting Arlie. Genius

[smartman]

Okay, this has got to stop! Now we have a guy who has admitted he is never going to buy the game telling everyone exactly how they've been treated. And to top that, he wants Arlie to do stuff that his sainted Adam (and Gary too) HAVE NEVER DONE AND WILL NEVER DO! Did Adam come out months before the actual release date of TEW 05 and give an exact date? NO! Did he tell you exactly what was going on every week or month? NO! He said the exact same thing that has been posted repeatedly on this thread. The game is in beta testing and it is going well, but there is no exact date for it to be released. Yet, Arlie is "treating his customers like crap"? NGW, you are never going to buy this game by your own admission. So, why in the hell do you feel like you're being treated like crap? Oh wait, you just want to inflame the board. Let me make this clear for all of you (since evidently the 5 other people and over 10 posts) haven't sunk in yet. THE GAME IS IN BETA TESTING AND THE TESTING IS GOING FINE! The game will be released when it is finished. This is straight from Arlie and Scott who know what they're talking about. Nobody owes you anymore of an explanation, nor will you get one until Arlie feels like there is something to report. The game will come out, and from all looks of the screenshots and listed features will be a great game. If you want to buy this game, you'll buy it, and if this supposed lack of information has pissed you off so badly you won't even try the demo when it comes out, then that is your decision. Now, just grow up and stop acting like 3-year olds in a supermarket who was told he can't have a piece of candy. Temper tantrums are for kids, not adults. And for those of you who think I'm a fanboy, you might want to ask Arlie about that as I was one of the most vocal attackers of TPF in the first weeks.

[jksander]

[QUOTE=ortonius]Here is a good example about misinformation and it's why people are complaining about the release. Jason says in this thread below, that he'll be posting information about graphics "pretty soon" on August 23rd. [url]http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4447[/url] Here we are 52 days later...[B]52 days[/B]...and we have no info. I don't know about you guys, but I've NEVER heard "pretty soon" in the context of 50+ days. There is a lack of information about this game and in the end it will cost the company sales. If there is a lack of communication between the developers and the fans...there is probably a lack of communication between the developers and their testers...and the developers and everyone else involved. This lack of communication doesn't bode well for a good game, much less a smooth release. The reason you take time out of your busy schedule coding, to write updates and communicate with the people that are going to buy your game...is to promote your game. As the game gets close to release, you continue to leak more information, more screens, more special things about the game...so that when it releases, you hit a peak of frenzy and have a ton of people that want to order your game the minute it is released. There is more to owning a company than just developing a product and being able to sell it...unfortunately, the people involved with this project haven't figured this out.[/QUOTE] There is also more to the life of a game than how many people "hit a peak of frenzy and ... order yuor game the minute it is released." But there's also a flaw in your 52 days theory: [url]http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4955[/url] He posted new screens to the front page on September 29. He has also posted in this thread on September 19 (2x), September 20 and October 10. You've received responses from Scott Vibert (high on the GDS chain of command) on numerous occasions, and the entire GDS team has allowed this thread to stay open for debate (as well as many other threads on the very same subject) for much longer than most would recommend (once something goes to flames, it's hard to rationalize the need to keep it open. This is getting really out of control. Why stay here to flame if there's no way you're interested any longer in buying the game or playing the demo? You've all said your piece, we've all listened to you (I haven't seen any of the fanboys you called out on here truly trashing you in any way) ... now can't this die?

[Cooleyvol]

[QUOTE=NGW4LIFE]No, there's a 3rd option. No one has to support Arlie and buy his game if he insists on treating his customers like pieces of s.hit[/QUOTE] Please.....................give it a rest.

[Mike D]

[QUOTE=jksander]There is also more to the life of a game than how many people "hit a peak of frenzy and ... order yuor game the minute it is released." But there's also a flaw in your 52 days theory: [url]http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4955[/url] [/QUOTE] Sorry JK, but there is no flaw in his 52 day theory. He's specifically talking about helmets, which there has been no further update on when they will release the basic models. That is a completely seperate issue from what's generally being talked about in this thread. The 52 days without info is legit, no matter how much you try and spin it. I would imagine that even Cooley, who's a big supporter of Arlie's work is greating frustrated with the helmets, because I'm sure he wants to start working on them.

[Arlie Rahn]

The game is still in BETA and we are ironing out some of the remaining issues. As I said earlier, we will release a single-season demo before the final game is available for purchase so that people can try it out. I am not going to set a timetable for how long this final phase of BETA will take, but we are getting closer. I will try and do a better job here about providing updates as we finish up. I just tend to want to spend more time on the game instead of posting progress updates. But, perhaps I need to do a little more of the latter since we are slightly behind the original schedule.

[mikey1294]

Don't worry about it Arlie. I really love your games. I can see where some of these people are coming from. I mean I would like some more updates but if it is gonna take time away from the game then don't worry about it. It's not gonna make me not want to buy the game just because you don't post updates about the game. I'm sure there are a lot more people who agree with me on this then there isn't. Keep up the good work and good luck!

[Cooleyvol]

[QUOTE=Mike D] I would imagine that even Cooley, who's a big supporter of Arlie's work is greating frustrated with the helmets, because I'm sure he wants to start working on them.[/QUOTE] Frustrated...........no, but I would like to understand why I can't have them (blanks) in order to begin creating the helmet set. If anything, it'd pass the time until release and offer a great logo set that would be available on release day.

[Doomba]

Why would they support anything that would make us/you happy right now?

[Guest Sweed]

[QUOTE=Doomba]Why would they support anything that would make us/you happy right now?[/QUOTE] Maybe you should check out the hemlet thread. Appears he already had them last night. post #22 here... [url]http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4447&page=2&pp=15[/url]

[Miral]

This thread still lingering along? :confused: Lets have a vote: Close this thread now. Yea Nay I vote Yea :cool:

[Sef0r]

Back on topic Why the secrets? There is no secret, unless you want to count "closed beta" as secret :D Anyways, Arlie must have been alerted to bugs/glitches that he didn't expect. During beta testing, you and what you believe as a near complete product (in this case Bowl Bound) get a huge wake up call when people outside the organisation start to play the game. I have no doubt that one of two things happened (and may still be happening) during testing. A major bug has been discovered, or many small bugs have been discovered. It also isn't easy to fix these bugs because when you submit a near finished product the last thing you want are major glitches to pop up that could cause a rewrite of large portions of said product. The BETA testers right now probably have access to a hidden part of this forum and are helping Arlie get problems ironed out. I'm sure most of them would love to come here and tell people the reason for the delay and to hold tight. I am part of a beta team as well (for another game) and when I check the main forum for the game there is no end to the questions about the release of the game (you can't blame the consumer for wanting something). Some of them border on stupid complaints. I want to tell them what is happening and how excited I am for the game even at its beta stage but the NDA I signed prevents me from doing so. I think in this case, something should be said, honesty will reign supreme (stupid phrase I know). I mean, you have people here who will even pay to be a beta tester or even pay for a demo of the game. The last thing you want to do is give them false hope so I understand why you might not want to say anything on the subject, however without hope I feel many will start to forget about the game and anything GDS has to offer. As a business/game developer you may not agree with my assessment of the situation, but as a consumer you would understand the frustration of being left out (not that you HAVE to tell us anything).

[gopokes]

Can we give this a rest? Seriously, this is bordering on ridiculous. No matter how many times that thwe same questions are posted about when the game will be released or why there aren't any updates are not going to make the game come out any quicker. Just think if Arlie took the time to update as often as some of you would like it might take even longer. So just sit back and relax. Besides don't you all have a life to take care of anyway. IT'S JUST A GAME. I'm just as exited about it as anybody else, but I have a business to run and a family to take care of. When it comes out hopefully I'll have time to play the game, if not I'll play it when I do have time.