does anyone know what Vince has against JR?

[Outlawjc]

Why JR Got Smacked: A Look Inside WWE (By Kevin Kelly) Date Added: June 26, 2008 Story By: Matthew Boone Why JR Got Smacked: A Look Inside the WWE 06/24/2008 by Kevin Kelly After watching last night's WWE Draft/Annual "Kill Vince" show, the most shocking draftee wasn't Triple H, Kane or anyone in tights. No, it was Jim Ross, who was drafted to SmackDown and no draftee has looked less thrilled since Eli Manning got picked by San Diego. Why trade announcers? Vince has told fans for years that the announcers don't matter (don't call matches, ask moronic questions, look stupid, be a boob) so how can trading JR for Michael Cole help either show? It can't... this was personal. Why was it personal? Why does Vince torture JR? After all, only one announcer has been so humiliated, beaten up and embarassed in his career. Everything has been a big rib on JR all of these years. It's sad really. But the reason why? A few reasons, I believe.

[Self]

Something I heard, which is at most [I]part[/I] of the problem, is that Vince wants RAW to be a modern, hip show and yet the presenters are both in their late 50's. King isn't so bad, given his lecherousness, but J.R and his old fashioned values just don't speak to the modern generation, their their cell phones and their laptop computers and their emo hairstyles. He has tried to get J.R off of RAW for years, but keeps having to bring him back when his replacement doesn't work out (Cole is much better when he gets a chance to do Post-work like on Smackdown, and Coach sucks) It's a shame they don't have TV in Florida, then they could train up new, younger announcers.

[KevBone]

Here's the entire article: [QUOTE]Why JR Got Smacked: A Look Inside the WWE 06/24/2008 by Kevin Kelly After watching last night's WWE Draft/Annual "Kill Vince" show, the most shocking draftee wasn't Triple H, Kane or anyone in tights. No, it was Jim Ross, who was drafted to SmackDown and no draftee has looked less thrilled since Eli Manning got picked by San Diego. Why trade announcers? Vince has told fans for years that the announcers don't matter (don't call matches, ask moronic questions, look stupid, be a boob) so how can trading JR for Michael Cole help either show? It can't... this was personal. Why was it personal? Why does Vince torture JR? After all, only one announcer has been so humiliated, beaten up and embarassed in his career. Everything has been a big rib on JR all of these years. It's sad really. But the reason why? A few reasons, I believe. First, I think Vince hates looking at JR. Vince is so absorbed with appearance that he views those of us that are fat like Don Imus views blacks. Vince sees everything as "weakness". Fat people are weak. Sick people are weak. Next, the sureest way to get anything in the WWE is say you don't want it to happen. Vince loves the chance to screw with people and has loved to put it to JR over the years. Vince relished the fights that Vince Russo would get into with JR over booking. When JR wrote in his blog that he didn't want to move to SmackDown, I knew he would get it. Just out of spite, Vince would do that to JR just to show he has control, just because he can. Since Vince knows the announcers matter very little (see Mike Adamle), the only reason he switched JR was spite. And what's worse, JR gave Vince what he wanted... the pouty face on TV. JR put the damn rib over. So, to review. Vince is a mental case and JR played right into his hands. Vince sees weakness in everyone who is not him and loves to screw with people he knows will put it over. Raw's loss is SmackDown's gain but Vince getting his jollies once again at JR's expense is becoming an all-to-familiar song. What a time Saturday at Fanslam! Nick is awesome, Eric Stein was great to meet and work with. Oh, and Chris Cash was there too! No, seriously, we are a great team and hopefully we will have more chances to work together. As far as the show itself, I will write more about it, who did what, who had huge boobs and the post-show beer report from the hotel bar. That will be later this week. TTFN! Thoughts, questions, concerns? [email]Kevinfsu90@yahoo.com[/email][/QUOTE]

[BurningHamster]

I think Self is probably on the right track. Jim Ross doesn't seem to fit the identity Vince wants for WWE. JR is old, fat and Southern ... three things Vince seems to dislike and wants to distance WWE from. While I honestly think JR's best years are behind him and he has become stale and repetative (much like pretty much everyone does in the WWE) I don't think they have a great deal they can replace him with.

[The Shape]

Also the whole network switch of SD surely played a part ;)

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=The Shape;451103]Also the whole network switch of SD surely played a part ;)[/QUOTE] Although Self has won me over with his thoughts, mainly because they make complete sense, I think your responce is probably the one that this shoe fits. Far as that article... anyone can say "Vince hates JR, blah blah blah".... Doesn't make it true. It don't even make sense to me. Why would someone that Vince hates, be on his show? Pretty sure, Vince knows that JR is alot more well known (as is Mic Foley), and want's Smackdown to start with some familiarity on the new network. With all the trades, I would say he want's to boost Smackdown's ratings as well.... but I also see why Smackdown's been boosted better then they were last year. Simply put, Raw has ECW to play with this time around, and Smackdown doesn't (outside of storylines that might have to fade out). Smackdown needs the same star power they had before, without the use of ECW stars, and I think they got it now. ECW vs. Raw might be the theme we see upcoming for future endeaver's. I don't really see Cena or Punk going heel or anything, so I'm thinking we will see ECW heels hitting the Raw arena on a regular basis. Smackdown will now be doing pretty much their own thing, outside of the normal crossbranding feuds that will surely come up, but no where near as strong as they were before.

[Tyler Gadzinski]

I think Vince just has something against CP people.. It sucks if Vince wants RAW to be hip and new age to fit in with the other 12 year old girls that are more into the General Hospital aspect of RAW than the wrestling aspect

[djthefunkchris]

[QUOTE=Tyler Gadzinski;451375]I think Vince just has something against CP people.. It sucks if Vince wants RAW to be hip and new age to fit in with the other 12 year old girls that are more into the General Hospital aspect of RAW than the wrestling aspect[/QUOTE] Cutting Edge is the term;)

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;451368] Why would someone that Vince hates, be on his show? [/QUOTE] Vince wasn't aware Raven was in the WWE for several months even though he was on TV every week and won multiple Hardcore Titles. The story goes that several months went by after the InVasion started and Vince happened to see him out in the ring and asked who in the hell had hired Levy back. I've personally never bought the "well Vince is a multi-millionaire who is too busy to bother with everything." That's why I've always thought McMahon to be a horrid owner when it comes to wrestling. Most of the WWE's biggest ideas came from other people (see Pat Patterson) or blatantly ripped off from WCW or ECW. McMahon may be a good businessman... hell he's a GREAT businessman... but when it comes to the wrestling side of things from in-ring workers to announcers he doesn't know what works for the fans and what doesn't... which is why horrible ring workers like Mark henry and Batista will just never go away. When it comes to JR though... he's over the hill. He confuses the wrestlers on a nightly basis and doesn't even know what half the moves are called. If he wasn't so good at putting wrestlers over he'd be another Tony Schivanoe. Putting JR with Foley can only help JR at this point because in the what... month that Foley has been doing color you would think he's been doing it for years. RAW was the first time I've heard Foley on commentary and he was so comfortable with it that brand new fans to wrestling who'd never heard of him would think he'd been in that seat a very long time. Personally I've thought over the last couple years that Cole is a much better announcer than JR and like Cole said Monday; He's called every Smackdown to date minus 2 in almost a decade... he's obviously gotta be doing right!

[tristram]

I think people are getting 'worked' to be honest. Vince McMahon is a huge JR lover. And JR is hugely loyal to VM. Everyone knows this. After all, good ole JR left WC dubbya for the WWF all those years ago for less cashola blah blah blah blah blah. If VKM asked JR to drop to his knees, he would.

[Guest Ransik]

[QUOTE=tristram;451443]I think people are getting 'worked' to be honest. Vince McMahon is a huge JR lover. And JR is hugely loyal to VM. Everyone knows this. After all, good ole JR left WC dubbya for the WWF all those years ago for less cashola blah blah blah blah blah. If VKM asked JR to drop to his knees, he would.[/QUOTE] Didn't they do that on national TV already? :p

[The Swanton825]

[QUOTE=Ransik;451461]Didn't they do that on national TV already? :p[/QUOTE] He didn't say "and kiss Vince's butt". :D

[AfRoMaN36]

Is that why JR is head of talent relations? Pretty much the right hand man of Vince....? Because he hates him so much? And I hope this isn't the same Kevin Kelly that his career highlight was being called a transexual by the Rock. Because if he's speaking of his own expierience, it wasnt that Vince hated you Kevin.... you sucked.

[tristram]

It's quite obvious there's no dramas. FTR, I don't think JR is the Head of Talent anymore. He certainly was though. FTR, I think he was VP at WCW and from memory either him or Tony Skee-o-vane were expected to take leadership there in the early 1990s, until a certain bloke named Bischoff got rejected by the WWF for an commentating role. Heh... One thing that points is obvious work is the last line in JR's initial blog where he says he plans to turn up to the next RAW as it's in his home town. As if they're not going to play that up?

[Self]

Call me a mark if you will but I think Vince doesn't like J.R, at least in terms of what I said before. However, the fact that Vince is such a good businessman means that he has kept J.R on the payroll, because he knows that J.R is/was the best at what he does. I'm looking forward to Smackdown this week. So much so, that it's almost been a struggle to dodge the spoilers, something I usually do effortlessly. P.S. The thing The Shape pointed out, the MyNetwork thing. I agree that it's probably a bigger part of why J.R. was moved. It's all a rich tapestry. :)

[Tyler Gadzinski]

Please don't tell me there gonna have J.R. do another Heel turn.. we all know how short his first one was.. [url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=3jLy1NtcCfA[/url] And how horribly bad.

[robertocarlos87]

[QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;451490]Is that why JR is head of talent relations? Pretty much the right hand man of Vince....? Because he hates him so much? And I hope this isn't the same Kevin Kelly that his career highlight was being called a transexual by the Rock. Because if he's speaking of his own expierience, it wasnt that Vince hated you Kevin.... you sucked.[/QUOTE] He has not been in that position for a good few years now, John Laurinaitis has held that position since 2004

[Guerrerofan777]

Vince's problem nowadays is that he is simply out of touch with the fans, he tries to appeal to the younger demographics but even at that he usually fails, with only a few exceptions coming to mind. If Vince hated JR, he would've never made him Head of Talent Relations and he would've never accepted when JR asked to leave the spot. He trusted JR to find new talents, he trusted JR possibly the future of the company, word is that Mr Ross found Brock Lesnar, John Cena, to name a few, and they gave Vince a lot of money, if that's not a reason to like JR, then I don't know what is. The whole JR colonoscopy crap was incredibly distasteful, even surpassing the Ed Ferrara crap in WCW, and it just shoed how desperate Vince was to get a grip of the fans and try to get some heat. I read not too long ago an excerpt (sp?) of the Ring of Hell book that taked about when Vince met Carlito, in the beggining of the conversation, Carlito talked with him, athletic background, good looks, well spoken, and in the middle Vince just told him "Could you "spic it up" a little bit?" Carlito just looked at him "Ya know, spic it up?". In other words, Vince wanted Carlito to look like the stereotypical Puerto Rican pimp. And you saw him "wrestling" the phone in the Million Dollar giveaway, Vince is out of touch and unfortunately he modifes most of the storylines that come out of creative. I think he needs to not be a part of the creative process. And I've probably went a little bit off topic...

[Eisen-verse]

I don't think that JR and Vince really have "real" beef. I mean most employees have some sort of beef with their boss as they are the authority figure over all. However, I'm sure there relationship is very much so an Employee/Boss relationship that shows signs of getting along and also signs of agitation when stuff like this happens. With that being said, It's Vince's company so it's his call... Granted, It seems as if the WWE is starting to slip a little when it comes to really listening to their fans (they do and they don't) and moving JR is something that everyone knew would piss off a lot of die hard fans. JR has been the voice of RAW for years and arguably the most respected wrestling announcer there ever has been. It brings a little something to Smackdown to have him there but it also takes something away from RAW. Even if you're trying to go young... Which I understand from a business stand point... It's not like JR is going to have people turn away who are in a younger demographic? All in all, Hopefully Smackdown rises as a powerful brand now that they've added some great tools.

[Guerrerofan777]

I don't know how JR would drive away the younger demographic, his ability to tell a story sucks everyone in and actually makes the product look better, besides, kids know that JR is respected, and tend to follow the crowd's lead and show him respect as well, regardless of how "sick" he might look. What can really damage his credibility is pulling crap like that colonoscopy ****, making him look like a complete, utter joke. The reason the JR turn didn't work was because people knew he didn't "mean" it. I remember watching it, I was a kid and I didn't believe a thing he said because I knew he was one of the "untouchable" one of the guys that should be "respected" and was respected every night, thus nullifying the whole "I'm not respected crap". Of course, it helped knowing that wrestling was fake, at that time, my older sister (who hated wrestling) quickly reminded me of that, breking the illusion :(

[Self]

[QUOTE=Eisen-verse;451701]It's not like JR is going to have people turn away who are in a younger demographic? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Guerrerofan777;451817] besides, kids know that JR is respected.[/QUOTE] Now I agree with everything you guys say, but I don't fully agree with these sentences. Sure, kids who have been following WWE for a while know JR is respected, but for [I]brand new viewers[/I], which is what Vince wants and needs to pull up the rating, having Good [I]Old[/I] J.R. as the first thing they see might be off-putting, in the way that if a 56 year old man is enjoying something, a 15 year old automatically thinks it's uncool. I can't link to any specific studies, but I'm sure tons of market research has been done to back this up. It's science. J.R is old, fat and Southern. This is pretty much the opposite of what Vince wants his sponsors and his stockholders to think of when they picture the WWE. Honestly, I think there [I]are[/I] people out there who turn on RAW, see him and King, then keep flicking through the channels, perhaps rolling their eyes and chuckling at fans of wrasslin'. If you put on a cooler looking dude (Michael Cole is a slight improvment... I guess) or a hot chick with giant cans at the announce desk, then maybe those same viewers will keep watching for a extra few seconds. Just long enough for John Cena to show up and blow their minds. Maybe it's just me, but this makes a degree of sense. Unfortunately this theory has gone largely untested, because J.R. is just so darn good at his job, and his replacements have been so poor.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=djthefunkchris;451379]Cutting Edge is the term;)[/QUOTE] No, it's not. WWE wouldn't know cutting edge if it went to their shareholders and ousted the board. [QUOTE=AfRoMaN36;451490]Is that why JR is head of talent relations? Pretty much the right hand man of Vince....? Because he hates him so much?[/QUOTE] Hi Afroman. Might wanna go check wwe.com's corporate site. JR hasn't been VP of Talent Relations in almost five years (maybe a little more than 5). [QUOTE=Guerrerofan777;451592]Vince's problem nowadays is that he is simply out of touch with the fans, he tries to appeal to the younger demographics but even at that he usually fails, with only a few exceptions coming to mind. If Vince hated JR, he would've never made him Head of Talent Relations and he would've never accepted when JR asked to leave the spot. He trusted JR to find new talents, he trusted JR possibly the future of the company, word is that Mr Ross found Brock Lesnar, John Cena, to name a few, and they gave Vince a lot of money, if that's not a reason to like JR, then I don't know what is.[/QUOTE] I'd agree that Vince has no earthly idea on how to attract folks in my demographic (18-35 males with tons of disposable income). As an example, look at the growth of a brand such as Under Armour, which now competes directly with powerhouses like Nike, Reebok, and Adidas. WWE's programming can't compete directly against powerhouses like The Daily Show or even Mind of Mencia or Dexter or MLB games (all shows which draw large amounts of the aforementioned demographic). But, as is his strength, he never sells out to one demographic, instead choosing to spread the product over several. So the soccer moms keep him in business while he tries to resurrect or recreate the Attitude era. I think JR's credited with signing everyone from Brock, Cena, WGTT, Batista, and several other current mainstays. Wasn't he also the one in charge (at least in part) when the Radicalz and Jericho came over too? [QUOTE=Guerrerofan777;451817]I don't know how JR would drive away the younger demographic, his ability to tell a story sucks everyone in and actually makes the product look better[/QUOTE] Actually, JR kinda fails on the more modern aspect of the business. He doesn't know the modern variants of old moves and often mislabels stuff or refers to it by the wrong name. "Kids" nowadays aren't stupid like they were at one time. They have access to all the information in the world (for good or ill). So when they see some indy wrestler do a victory roll and JR calls it a "rollup", that sticks in their minds. But given how much WWE's workers are leashed, this isn't [B][I]that[/I][/B] big a deal. [QUOTE=Self;451880]Now I agree with everything you guys say, but I don't fully agree with these sentences. Sure, kids who have been following WWE for a while know JR is respected, but for [I]brand new viewers[/I], which is what Vince wants and needs to pull up the rating, having Good [I]Old[/I] J.R. as the first thing they see might be off-putting, in the way that if a 56 year old man is enjoying something, a 15 year old automatically thinks it's uncool. I can't link to any specific studies, but I'm sure tons of market research has been done to back this up. It's science.[/QUOTE] Sorry Self, you're barking up the wrong tree here. You're talking junk science (like the kind that's BOUGHT). You know, the kinda science that tells us coffee or beer or wine is good for us one day then six months later says it's not? Compare apples to apples. Some of the most respected people in sports are "old". Butkus, Singletary, Lott, Jordan (in a class by himself, granted), Orr & Howe, Aaron, Ted Williams (RIP), and on and on. How old is Pele? Is he "uncool"? You might be referring to the moronic, vapid 15 year olds, I'll grant you. The ones who "recreate" GTA scenes because their friends are doing it. The problem with your idea is that replacing JR with Michael Cole, isn't really an upgrade. Cole has the whiniest persona in WWE and is surpassed in suck only by Coach. Cole's knowledge of wrestling moves is also extremely limited. He knows the signature spots but little else, it seems. Could you see him actually identifying a Uranage?

[Self]

[QUOTE=Remianen;452034]Sorry Self, you're barking up the wrong tree here. You're talking junk science (like the kind that's BOUGHT). You know, the kinda science that tells us coffee or beer or wine is good for us one day then six months later says it's not?[/QUOTE] I agree. It is junk science to an extent. [QUOTE]You might be referring to the moronic, vapid 15 year olds, I'll grant you. The ones who "recreate" GTA scenes because their friends are doing it.[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter how moronic they are, they still count towards the ratings :) That's exactly the type of person I expect to be influenced by this kind of thing. I think JR's appearance does effect things, but not to the scale Vince probably thinks. [QUOTE]The problem with your idea is that replacing JR with Michael Cole, isn't really an upgrade. Cole has the whiniest persona in WWE and is surpassed in suck only by Coach. Cole's knowledge of wrestling moves is also extremely limited. He knows the signature spots but little else, it seems. Could you see him actually identifying a Uranage?[/QUOTE] He'd start to call it the Rock Bottom, then stop, hoping it could be taken out in editing... but it can't, because now he goes live. Yeah, Cole isn't an upgrade in cool, but in Vince's mind, at least he isn't fat, at least he isn't Southern and at least he isn't 56. What I talked about in my previous post was the kind of theoretical science, based on facts and figures found in things like focus groups, which a lot of the time has a negative effect on the artistic quality of the work. I know focus groups, I made 12 films in college and most of them were put through a mandatory focus group with dudes picked up around campus. I got a some good info out of them, but most of it was garbage that messes with your head and pulls you away from your vision. With stockholders and pressure from other TV shows to deal with, I reckon Vince's marbles are all over the place right now.