TNA makes mistakes but I have to give credit here

[Dischord]

They have the balls to end their only major television show with a womans match, which is something WWE would never do. Kudos TNA, you're actually making me want to watch female wrestlers, something WWE has never been able to do.

[MikeSensation]

Don't you remember the Lita/Trish Stratus match that main evented Raw a couple of years ago when Lita won the title. Actually watch Raw and you might know there have been two main events on Raw headlined by a Woman's Championship match.

[tristram]

It was a very good end I thought, Samoa Joe still had a story building through the match... infact, I think someone actually going to the rafters is one of the best ways of developing the Sting/rafter storyline I've seen in a long time. Basically, the Knock Outs are developing very very nicely. And I'm not just saying that because I'd accept being ***** whipped by Velvet Sky.

[Dischord]

[QUOTE=MikeSensation;473708]Don't you remember the Lita/Trish Stratus match that main evented Raw a couple of years ago when Lita won the title. Actually watch Raw and you might know there have been two main events on Raw headlined by a Woman's Championship match.[/QUOTE] Well obviously I don't remember or else this thread wouldn't exist. Why do you seem incredibly hostile about this? And why do you know the exact number of female oriented Main Events on RAW? :p I kid. Trying to keep things civil.

[infinitywpi]

[QUOTE=MikeSensation;473708]Don't you remember the Lita/Trish Stratus match that main evented Raw a couple of years ago when Lita won the title. Actually watch Raw and you might know there have been two main events on Raw headlined by a Woman's Championship match.[/QUOTE] Yeah... and how long ago was that? Couple years, at least? The E's women's division isn't nearly strong enough to support a women's main event right now. They've got some good workers, and some who're improving, but nobody who's popular enough to main event a show. TNA, however, seems to have struck gold with their division.

[keefmoon]

[QUOTE=MikeSensation;473708]Don't you remember the Lita/Trish Stratus match that main evented Raw a couple of years ago when Lita won the title. Actually watch Raw and you might know there have been two main events on Raw headlined by a Woman's Championship match.[/QUOTE] I can think of two Raw main events that were female only (since I've been watching anyway, which is in excess of 10 years)- Lita vs Trish and Lita vs Steph. If you can think of anymore let me know, but that seems like a very small amount given how many thousand shows that covers. It is good that TNA is giving attention to the females because I see absolutely no reason why they should not if they deserve it.

[Bad Luck Brett]

In this past year, I've watched/followed far less pro-wrestling than I have in the past 25 years. Due to life getting in the way, not because I'm tired of it. I usually get to catch the last hour of Raw and the last hour TNA usally and read up on what I've missed on various sites. Maybe a month or so ago, it occured to me that there is not one wrestler out there that I actually 'mark out' or even root for any more. Not sure if it's because I'm out-growing ([I]heh I try to stay the ultimate man-child[/I]) that part of the enjoyment or if it's due to a lack of stand-out characters, or a combination of the two. But I must say, the only storyline I've actaully cared to keep an eye on is the Awesome Kong/Women's division situation. First angle in a long time that makes want to 'tune in next week'.

[Dischord]

[QUOTE=infinitywpi;473885] TNA, however, seems to have struck gold with their division.[/QUOTE] Exactly how I feel. I actually enjoy watching the women's matches in TNA where as they are piss breaks with WWE. My biggest qualm with TNA is that they started out as an alternative to WWE and are simply doing nothing to keep up with that. I wish they'd take the women's and X-Divisions as weapons to fight WWE, give us a true alternative. And they have some great young stars that they should be using more. Styles, Joe, Kaz, Creed and so on and so forth. I'm honestly sick of seeing Booker T, Kevin Nash and to some extent Sting because I feel like instead of using them to help new talent, they're trying to use them for ratings. Oh, and finally. . .one thing with Styles. I don't know if it is the writers or not but I can't stand some of the recent promos I have seen Styles give. He seems charismatic and is amazing in the ring but he loses me when he talks.

[shamelessposer]

[QUOTE=Dischord;474063]Oh, and finally. . .one thing with Styles. I don't know if it is the writers or not but I can't stand some of the recent promos I have seen Styles give. He seems charismatic and is amazing in the ring but he loses me when he talks.[/QUOTE] Could it be the accent?

[Dischord]

[QUOTE=shamelessposer;474068]Could it be the accent?[/QUOTE] No. His delivery. He never convinces me with his promos. Maybe it's me though.

[fatallylost]

Now, don't get me wrong, there is a good point there. But, the last few months, minus the world x-cup, TNA hasn't been worth watching for free, to me. And there was quite a while where I almost stopped watching wwe because tna was leaps and bounds above. But, with things like little petey pump, and black machismo... even though they are small parts, not even numerous Eric young segments would make me watch, on purpose (p.s I'm a huge Eric Young fan) So, in a way, while the knockout division is booked well, when the rest of the product is crap, it makes it easier And yeah, I do think that division is miles above the wwe divas, but, still.

[SuperOwens]

[QUOTE=Dischord;474063]Exactly how I feel. I actually enjoy watching the women's matches in TNA where as they are piss breaks with WWE. My biggest qualm with TNA is that they started out as an alternative to WWE and are simply doing nothing to keep up with that. I wish they'd take the women's and X-Divisions as weapons to fight WWE, give us a true alternative. And they have some great young stars that they should be using more. Styles, Joe, Kaz, Creed and so on and so forth. I'm honestly sick of seeing Booker T, Kevin Nash and to some extent Sting because I feel like instead of using them to help new talent, they're trying to use them for ratings. Oh, and finally. . .one thing with Styles. I don't know if it is the writers or not but I can't stand some of the recent promos I have seen Styles give. He seems charismatic and is amazing in the ring but he loses me when he talks.[/QUOTE] Agree with this, i've been catching a bit of TNA lately. I could care less about Booker T and Joe. Never really liked Booker anyway. Gotta say as well, when will wrestling writers learn to stop recycling storylines. Sting in the rafters, who side is he on!!?? I cared the first three times around but its getting stale now. TNA have some great workers, just a shame most of them aren't in the main event. Actually, that sounds a lot like the WWE as well... I love Kurt, bit how much are they paying him? I doubt he's pushed the ratings up that much But big gratz on the women. Very big plus points there.

[tristram]

In fairness though SO, from what I've seen it's the first time someone's gone up there to hunt Stinger ;-) Stinger first time around from the rafters was super-hot FTR. It's kinda funny seeing the anti-Joe sentiment. Probably a year, maybe two years ago Joe was all over internet forums with love. If Joe had an itch between his tree trunks so many internet groupies would have done the honour for him. Now that he has ascended to the title scene, and been given somewhat of a characterisation people don't care about him lol At one stage I heard people say "Joe is TNA", now people could care less about him? I find that symbolic of the professional wrestling scene to be honest, and that's why the likes of Hogan, Flair are immortals because they generally transcend that thought process. Is anyone else hella high on Consequences Creed? Realise it's a Rocky rip-off, but I quite like him. Good look, going places. But I'm just praying that the Motor-City Machine Guns get a big push now, I'm massively behind them. Bring on the Knock-Outs, more Awesome Kong debortiery, and more Velvet Sky outfits ;)

[SuperOwens]

I hear what your saying, but i don't think it was that great of a segment. Joe actually looked knackered trying to get up those stairs :p Obviously its not exactly the same, but its the same premise we get from all bookers when they dont know what to do with the stinger. It was huge first time round, probably the greatest thing to come out of the Eric era. But thats because it was fresh and different.

[tristram]

I'm hearing you mate. I just thought it was a unique take on it. I don't know where Sting goes from here, for most of his career he's been babyface because frankly that's about it for Sting. When he went heel in WCW, the fans hated it. I mean not booing, just didn't buy it. Then he fought Vampiro, did a great job in putting him over, and then watched Vampiro then be dropped back down the card. I can't imagine say Sting doing a "Hollywood", I think his shelf time is probably starting to expire. Having said that, I have been waiting for 5-6 years for this dude to come back because frankly I have never seen something as hot as what Sting was throughout 1997, and the dude wasn't even wrestling. I just wonder what they need to do with Joe. I can't get over how one second practically everyone loved him and demanded he get a mega-push, the second he gets to the top it's like his time is up as well with the fans. I think after he's finished with Booker they need to put him in a program with AJ or Kurt Angle and just let him wrestle a 40 minute pay-per-view match, showcasing everything Joe is. That's what the fans loved him for, the fact he was the size he is but could do what he did. I think though for that to happen, Joe may need to turn heel and just become ruthless - no talk, just become a badass mutha. But still, the knock outs are hella cool. I don't know if I've said it before *heh* but I'm officially all over Velvet Sky like butter on toast.

[Self]

So you think for the fans to love Joe again... he has to turn heel... That sound wrong to anyone else? ;) I see what you mean though. Joe's problem right now is the promos he's doing. He's just... so... whiny. He yells at Kevin Nash for no reason. He cries when Sting interferes in his attempt to kill an unarmed man with a weapon. He can't fathom that someone other than Sting may own a black baseball bat. His character is so unlikeable now, if it weren't for his wrestling skill, he'd be getting the Cena reaction, in my book. Hell, I've been cheering on Nash & Booker for the past month. Shut Joe up. Make him the bad ass that everyone fell in love with. Keep him face. He is TNA's star. Sting... He's one of those guys I was never a fan of. I didn't dislike him, I just didn't care that much. Perhaps because he was mainly on the latter half of Nitro, which was when I switched to RAW. I have no idea how I'd book him.

[tristram]

I meant as in the fans care. Either pop or give heat. Generate some form of consistent reaction. The fans semi-care, but they aren't buying whiney Joe enough. The whiney Joe doesn't do it for me. I don't want Joe to 'entertain' me. I don't want Joe to develop a 'deeper' character. I just want Joe to shred opponents up. The reference to going heel? I seem to recall a bloke in the WWF who was similarly a bit whiney, came out slapping hands, big gay smile. And he turned the lack of response in his favour. "Die Rocky Die." His name, the Rock. It allowed him to develop a character off the hate. Sadly, it was overplayed, but another top drawing face started losing 'shelf life' because he was becoming stale. He reinvented himself. Went by the name of Hogan. Sadly, it was badly overplayed and poorly booked. And there was a hell of a lot of politics. One was a successful heel move that kept a character in the game for a long time and drew big time long term for the promotion even after he turned babyface, the other drew in the short to medium distance, and then the company began to crumble as no heir apparents had been allowed to develop. I think Samoa Joe is closer to the Rock category than the Hogan category, he is still young both in age and in character's shelf life. They just need him to be needed by the fans. Let Christian Cage assume the whiney persona. Let Kaz drop back into TNA as the rebel who tells him to shut up. Let Samoa Joe develop into the persona of if you line them up, I'll do whatever it takes at all costs to knock them down, no quarter asked for none given. Don't care for the stick, I'll let my wrestling do the talking. Become ruthless, face or heel, don't care, but drop the 'deeper character', drop the 'emotions', be Samoa Joe, the baddest muthaf***er in TNA.

[Self]

I see what you mean now. Sorry, I mistook you for one of those "[I]I luv Orton, Cena sux[/I]" heel-marks. You make a good point, although I think fans have always dug Joe as a monosyllabic bad-ass. If he largely shut up, and started dominating the Main Event scene, I think his fanbase would rally behind him, and BOOM! T-shirt sales.

[tristram]

No problems. Joe, drop the suit, leave the emotions to the Knock-Outs, and whoop ass! Disassociate from big Kev and do what made you the top dog.

[SuperOwens]

Yeah, gotta say that Sting has got to be the luckiest wrestler on the planet. He takes a year off and ends up being the most talked about worker in America. Its great for him that its constantly repeated. I always knew Joe for being the surprisingly agile stiff wrestling machine. Some of the kicks he throws out are brutal. He doesn't seem as stiff these days, whether that's all in my head, a deliberate approach or the fact the big names he's up against just wont take it like the hard working indie starlets, i don't know. I do think he's a natural heel though

[Self]

[QUOTE=SuperOwens;474464]I do think he's a natural heel though[/QUOTE] In the old school sense, perhaps, but they tried it with him a while ago. He was supposed to be the heel of the X-Division, the big indestructible bully who dominates the smaller guys, but the fans cheered him. They love watching him kick ass. He might be able to be the heel against AJ, but anyone else and he's going to struggle. Also, they need him as a babyface IMO. He is one of the few top guys who wasn't made by WWE/WCW, and they need someone like that on top. If he moved to WWE, I think he could be a heel, at least for a little while, because most of those fans won't know who he is, what he's done, and his moveset would be limited enough to make it work. If I were to turn Joe heel in TNA, I would have to go the whiny crybaby route. Domination is too cheer-worthy. Why do you think Man Utd. had such a massive following back in the day? People like winners.

[SuperOwens]

They were also the most hated team in the country by anybody who wasnt a Man U fan :D The perfect example of a good tweener. Any chance we can get Sir Alex Ferguson to take up the mat game this late in life? Nah, probably not. Anyway, i would think fans cheering a heel Joe would be better than them just liking him. Im just waiting for the Big Sexy turn. You know its going to happen :D

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=SuperOwens;474478] Im just waiting for the Big Sexy turn.You know its going to happen :D[/QUOTE] And you know maybe that's just what Joe needs to become the butt kicker it sounds like folks here want him to be. Nash gets tired of all the drama and kicks the snot out of Joe. Totally blindsiding the big man on PPV. When asked why on the following Impact, Big Kev points to Joe have gone from the butt kicking machine with a future to a sniveling crybaby. Maybe suggest Joe should be in the Knockouts division with the other tear junkies. Then Joe comes out. "You know what, Kev. maybe you're right. Maybe I should start kicking butts again. I'LL START WITH YOURS!!" My ears are already ringing from how the Impact Zone would likely explode over that sentiment.

[SuperOwens]

I think that would be very cool. It wouldn't surprise me if he was some how behind the 'Stingisums' On an unrelated note, does anybody else think that Kevin Nash should have gone grey years ago? Not sure why, but i just love his look these days. He reminds me of Dalton's limping cooler friend in Roadhouse. :p

[tristram]

Slightly off tangent, but is everyone sure Sting is repeatedly involved or inferred to be involved here? I know he was at the PPV, but the reason I say that is one of Booker's lights out attacks had Booker holding the bat, and a very quick lights on. There's no way Sting could have got down that quickly or even the bat had gone down that quickly. And on the last Impact, Joe had a weird look on his face as the show faded out. My instinct told me it was not what he expected.