The Vengeance Dilema

[Stennick]

So I'm very into this SWF that I've started and I a got nothing but hot stories going. My hottest story has been that of Vengeance vs. Jack Bruce. I must admit I've never played the SWF before this and looking at Vengeance he doesn't seem like the promo cutting type. So I've gone almost the silent deadly killer route with him. He would just show up, destroy, bloody and beat on Jack Bruce week after week. Bruce would be ready for it but Vengeance just couldn't be harmed. I've presented Vengeance as this unstoppable killing machine. Well we get to the ppv and Jack Bruce throws EVERYTHING he has at this guy and gets in some decent offense but Vengeance just over matches him, bloodies and pins him for the title. My goal is to keep Bruce on the sidelines for three weeks then have him come back talking about how he's never faced someone like Vengeance but he's taking his rematch at the ppv. They'll fight to a no contest at the ppv leading to a giant gimmick match at some point the month after that. Well my dilema is the fact that I can't have Vengeance beating up Jack Bruce every week for the next four months, however he's already bloodied and beaten him four weeks in a row and pinned him cleanly. Bruce was the world champion but as you can see I'm really trying to sell Vengeance as unstoppable. Now my problem is Christian Faith is embroiled in a bitter personal fued with someone so he's not available to take up the fight and Frehley and Enygma I'm building back up as threats and don't want to feed them to the lions yet leaving me with nobody but jobbers for Vengeance to destroy. The problem with that is you beat up jobbers to build up your "aura" as a good wrestler, monster wahtever. Well Vengeance has destroyed the best man in the company and left him on the sidelines he doesn't need the build. So now I'm thinking how in the **** am I going to sell the rest of this Bruce vs. Vengeance storyline without backing off just how evil and unstoppable vengeance is.

[Sons of Kohral]

Joe Sexy, a nice upper midcarder who will probably never see the World Title. Great charisma, have him cut a few promos about how he's going to stop Vengeance (save somebody from an attack for the face turn) and have Vengeance look for... Vengeance and focus on Sexy. Joe, since he's old and isn't the caliber of wrestler that Rich Money or Bruce are is the guy you can have flip back and forth from heel to face every 8 months and not worry. Plus, losses to Main Eventers help keep him in the midcard and his charisma is great.

[Eisen-verse]

[QUOTE]So I'm very into this SWF that I've started and I a got nothing but hot stories going. My hottest story has been that of Vengeance vs. Jack Bruce. I must admit I've never played the SWF before this and looking at Vengeance he doesn't seem like the promo cutting type. So I've gone almost the silent deadly killer route with him. He would just show up, destroy, bloody and beat on Jack Bruce week after week. Bruce would be ready for it but Vengeance just couldn't be harmed. I've presented Vengeance as this unstoppable killing machine. Well we get to the ppv and Jack Bruce throws EVERYTHING he has at this guy and gets in some decent offense but Vengeance just over matches him, bloodies and pins him for the title. My goal is to keep Bruce on the sidelines for three weeks then have him come back talking about how he's never faced someone like Vengeance but he's taking his rematch at the ppv. They'll fight to a no contest at the ppv leading to a giant gimmick match at some point the month after that. Well my dilema is the fact that I can't have Vengeance beating up Jack Bruce every week for the next four months, however he's already bloodied and beaten him four weeks in a row and pinned him cleanly. Bruce was the world champion but as you can see I'm really trying to sell Vengeance as unstoppable. Now my problem is Christian Faith is embroiled in a bitter personal fued with someone so he's not available to take up the fight and Frehley and Enygma I'm building back up as threats and don't want to feed them to the lions yet leaving me with nobody but jobbers for Vengeance to destroy. The problem with that is you beat up jobbers to build up your "aura" as a good wrestler, monster wahtever. Well Vengeance has destroyed the best man in the company and left him on the sidelines he doesn't need the build. So now I'm thinking how in the **** am I going to sell the rest of this Bruce vs. Vengeance storyline without backing off just how evil and unstoppable vengeance is.[/QUOTE] Maybe move him into a storyline that isn't based upon wrestling someone. Have Richard Eisen turn face (as I'm sure he is heel right now) and talk about how "Vengeance can't go around just destroying his superstars"... He talks about how it's bad for business for one of the biggest workers in the company to fall victim to a violent assault. This has Vengeance turn his attention towards the owner as Eisen tries to suppress the monster that is Vengeance. Using his character's persona.. You could say that he is seeking Vengeance for himself as the SWF is trying to "shut him down" while he finally made it to the top of the company. Eisen uses various wrestlers to try to stop Vengance and he mows over them without fail. Then, Eisen shockingly brings out a healthier but battered Jack Bruce who vows that he will "end the reign of the monster". Bruce and Eisen work together (along with almost all of the roster... Making Vengeance look like an iconic monster) to try to get the title back onto Bruce. Maybe that might work? I tend to use Vengeance in more segment-based storylines with only real matches happening here and there to further the story.

[The Shape]

Thinking realistically, if you did Vengeance vs. Rest of world inc. Eisens, Vengeance woulkd be cheered.

[foolinc]

IMO here is what you should do. After Vengence beats Bruce, have Bruce do exactly what you planned on doing, nothing. Do segments where the announcers wonder about Bruce for those 3 weeks. While this is going have a number one contender's tourment to deside who will fight Vengence at the next PPV. You can have Vengence destory midcarders and undermids you aren't pushing for those 4 weeks, if you even want him to wrestle at all. Throw in a could of crypitc promos about him beating Bruce, winning the title, and how he'll destroy whoever will win the tourney. During the finals of the tournament, have Vengence attack the winner only for Bruce to come out of no where to make the save. At the PPV Vengence will beat his oppenent and you can give Bruce a sitdown interview about what he's been doing and that he's going to use his rematch clause at next month's PPV. During the next month Bruce will be fighting "warm up" matches, while Vengence either does the same or has a mini feud with an uppermidcarder. At the PPV, have Bruce and Vengence go double DQ or a 30 minute draw. This will set up a Last Man Standing match (or any gimmick match really). During the month have both Bruce and Vegence battle it out with beatdowns on both sides as well as a number of run-ins. At the PPV have whoever you want win. Win or lose, with this set up Bruce looks strong and Vengence is brought back down from being untouchable to being just really strong.

[Eisen-verse]

[QUOTE]Thinking realistically, if you did Vengeance vs. Rest of world inc. Eisens, Vengeance woulkd be cheered.[/QUOTE] Possibly. I have always thought of Vengeance being an "Undertaker-esque" kind of superstar though. An over the top gimmick, a bad ass sense of destruction... People take a liking to that whether they are heel or face. ya know? So, while Vengeance would be a heel... I bet you that some would still cheer him. Plus, if you turn Eisen face... It could seem like he has "turned" for the sake of the SWF and is seemingly trying to "save what he has created". Giving the fans this sense that... "Oh my god... Eisen actually cares about the superstars in his company" and it may rally the fans to follow him with his turn. It would villafie Vengeance as this destructive monster in need of being dealt with.... So much so that the companies most consistent heel even decides to try to stop him. Would shake up how the SWF would look.

[The Shape]

Yes but, if you want to make that comparison, then The Undertaker would inevitably be rooted for a long way more than a Vince McMahon-led roster. The Eisen turn would be so cheesy doing it like that heh.

[Eisen-verse]

[QUOTE]Yes but, if you want to make that comparison, then The Undertaker would inevitably be rooted for a long way more than a Vince McMahon-led roster. The Eisen turn would be so cheesy doing it like that heh.[/QUOTE] I spose. I'll give ya that. :cool:

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=The Shape;503112]Yes but, if you want to make that comparison, then The Undertaker would inevitably be rooted for a long way more than a Vince McMahon-led roster. The Eisen turn would be so cheesy doing it like that heh.[/QUOTE] Maybe. But this being a different universe the CVerse fans might just rally around Eisen more than we in reality would Vince. In any event, I like it. It's got a classic old-school feel to it and turning Eisen face is thinking so far out of the box that it could make a very worthy journal . The fact a move like this can even be considered just shows how malleable the CVerse is.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=cappyboy;503174]Maybe. But this being a different universe the CVerse fans might just rally around Eisen more than we in reality would Vince. In any event, I like it. It's got a classic old-school feel to it and turning Eisen face is thinking so far out of the box that it could make a very worthy journal . The fact a move like this can even be considered just shows how malleable the CVerse is.[/QUOTE] I'd disagree. While it's obvious that things don't ever have to make sense to be doable in SE promotions, turning Eisen face would be so far beyond the pale, you'd have a better chance of convincing thinking human beings that Spongebob really exists. Eisen is like Castro, widely despised for good reason. The best path would be heel vs heel and have Eisen feed faces to Vengeance [B][I]without[/I][/B] turning. Say he sees Marc DuBois backstage oogling Emma Chase and says, "Hey, you. What're you doing? You've got a match coming up." "I do?" "Yes you do. Against Vengeance" and DuBois's face goes white. Even have him offer world title shots to people when of course, no one wants to go up against the current world champion. "Kid, I'm gonna make you a STAR!" "Thanks, Mr. Eisen!" "No problem, kid. We'll start tonight. Tonight, you're going to be the SWF World Heavyweight Champion!" "OH MY GOD! Really?" "Yeah, all you have to do.......is beat Vengeance." That kind of underhanded trick is par for the course for someone like Eisen.

[Eisen-verse]

Honestly, This is why I love Vengeance. A lot of people trash on him because his skills aren't amazing, however, he's an amazing character and someone that is a lot of fun to book. There are so many ways you can go about it that he poses a new look in every journal. Very cool. I was thinking about possibly doing a SWF journal at some point and had an idea of what I wanted to do with Vengeance. Making him a center point of the roster in a lot of ways.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=Remianen;503225]I'd disagree. While it's obvious that things don't ever have to make sense to be doable in SE promotions, turning Eisen face would be so far beyond the pale, you'd have a better chance of convincing thinking human beings that Spongebob really exists. Eisen is like Castro, widely despised for good reason. [/QUOTE] All well and good. EXCEPT At the end of the day, why should we care about the intelligence of fans who only exist in our minds? For all the factors that resemble reality thrown in a blender, the CVerse is still wacky world. If we can play a scenario like this, get good segment ratings out of it, and have fun doing it, why not go for it? [QUOTE=Remianen;503225]The best path would be heel vs heel and have Eisen feed faces to Vengeance [B][I]without[/I][/B] turning. Say he sees Marc DuBois backstage oogling Emma Chase and says, "Hey, you. What're you doing? You've got a match coming up." "I do?" "Yes you do. Against Vengeance" and DuBois's face goes white. Even have him offer world title shots to people when of course, no one wants to go up against the current world champion. "Kid, I'm gonna make you a STAR!" "Thanks, Mr. Eisen!" "No problem, kid. We'll start tonight. Tonight, you're going to be the SWF World Heavyweight Champion!" "OH MY GOD! Really?" "Yeah, all you have to do.......is beat Vengeance." That kind of underhanded trick is par for the course for someone like Eisen. [/QUOTE] Now that said, I also like this. This is evil genius at its best. I especially like the second scenario with him feeding the young hopeful to Vengeance after pumping the kid so full of mush talk the poor fool can't even think straight. Brilliant stuff.

[Guest The Aussie]

[QUOTE=Remianen;503225]I'd disagree. While it's obvious that things don't ever have to make sense to be doable in SE promotions, turning Eisen face would be so far beyond the pale, you'd have a better chance of convincing thinking human beings that Spongebob really exists. Eisen is like Castro, widely despised for good reason. The best path would be heel vs heel and have Eisen feed faces to Vengeance [B][I]without[/I][/B] turning. Say he sees Marc DuBois backstage oogling Emma Chase and says, "Hey, you. What're you doing? You've got a match coming up." "I do?" "Yes you do. Against Vengeance" and DuBois's face goes white. Even have him offer world title shots to people when of course, no one wants to go up against the current world champion. "Kid, I'm gonna make you a STAR!" "Thanks, Mr. Eisen!" "No problem, kid. We'll start tonight. Tonight, you're going to be the SWF World Heavyweight Champion!" "OH MY GOD! Really?" "Yeah, all you have to do.......is beat Vengeance." That kind of underhanded trick is par for the course for someone like Eisen.[/QUOTE] So then you propose taking him down the whole "Tonight you'll be going one on one with... The Undertaka!!!" thing like with Teddy Long.

[Eisen-verse]

Total Side Note: I don't think anyone should ever be afraid to turn Richard Eisen face. Yea, he's an amazing heel... but think about the WWE these days. When wrestling becomes predictable is when it becomes absolutely boring. :) Cheers.

[Stennick]

These are all some good ideas and I really like the idea of the Bruce sit down interview and such. Good ideas all the way around.

[The Phenom]

Or it could be revealed that Eisen is controlling Vengence to rid of anyone who tries to challenge his authority. Vengence is his weapon to anyone who doesn't conform to his vision. Perhaps he was even the one who planted the seeds in Skulls mind leading to him becoming Vengence in the first place. All the while Vengence is mowing down any one in his path as part of Eisen's "holy war" people are wondering where Bruce is, who is to broken in mind and spirit. This leads to everyone to cry out to Bruce to please come back and slay the monster (both Vengence and Eisen) once and for all.

[Cyberknight]

Imposter? Have you considered the one area that Vengeance hasn't done? Vengeance has not beaten - himself! Why not employ a doppleganger to challenge Vengeance to a match leading up to a PPV? (Discovered by Eisen?) or Have Vengeance be stalked and interrupted by some supernatural power. He can become increasingly unhinged by continuing to destroy anybody in his path but the mystery remains at who could be manipulating things. Is it Jack Bruce? Is it Eisen?

[The Shape]

[QUOTE=Eisen-verse;503231]Very cool. I was thinking about possibly doing a SWF journal at some point and had an idea of what I wanted to do with Vengeance. Making him a center point of the roster in a lot of ways.[/QUOTE] Me too, kinda...a huge stable war in mind lol. [QUOTE=The Phenom;503274]Or it could be revealed that Eisen is controlling Vengence to rid of anyone who tries to challenge his authority. Vengence is his weapon to anyone who doesn't conform to his vision. Perhaps he was even the one who planted the seeds in Skulls mind leading to him becoming Vengence in the first place. All the while Vengence is mowing down any one in his path as part of Eisen's "holy war" people are wondering where Bruce is, who is to broken in mind and spirit. This leads to everyone to cry out to Bruce to please come back and slay the monster (both Vengence and Eisen) once and for all.[/QUOTE] I like this.. [QUOTE=Cyberknight;503279]Have Vengeance be stalked and interrupted by some supernatural power. He can become increasingly unhinged by continuing to destroy anybody in his path but the mystery remains at who could be manipulating things. Is it Jack Bruce? Is it Eisen?[/QUOTE] No, it's...Angry Gilmore! One of the pics in the alt thread is perfect for him as some kinda demonic cult leader kinda thing. So in the aforementioned stable war I was thinking along the lines of: Gilmore (probably renamed "Rage" or something of that ilk like the alter-ego in question), Vengeance, Enygma and Acid (hence a mask theme runs throughout in the buildup to Gilmore's arrival). So they're sorta the Ministry, heh. Then, naturally, the Corporation (but named "The Regime"). Begins with Eisens & Roberts mainly, then Brandon & Chase join up with her gaining some kinda higher authority in the process. Not sure who else at this point, probably Rich Money so they have someone who can both wrestle and talk... And thirdly, the kinda Rock-ish DX, with Bruce's influence transforming various other personas over a long period of time. Once they got slightly more over he'd be aligned with the Bumfholes, under new names (possibly the good ol' Cruise ones) of course, and for a fourth guy I'm thinkin Robbie Retro, because the makeover would be awesome and I really enjoy booking this guy. Definite future star in my eyes. Potential to throw in a fourth is rife, possibly something of the "Wave of Violence" mould which would allow for huge turns from Remo and Frehley; Remo ditching Money when he joins The Regime, whilst Frehley turns his back on long-time ally Jack Bruce (in my game at least). They could be joined by the Samoan Wildboyz perhaps, or maybe Groucho Bling with a makeover (it's a Bling Thing, heh). Then as far as remaining talent in the upper card goes, Train could still be used as the lone monster who destroys people before eventually everyone gangs up on him to get rid of him (though I might have him fade away rather than bring him back so dominantly). Faith is the lone wolf, respected by all and still definitley a babyface but perhaps with more of an edge, refusing the allegiance of many of the groups and probably holding the belt for a long while, maybe taking it off Bruce in a huge match at Supreme Challenge or maybe from a heel trans-champion. Notably there'd also be Lobby, naive aquatic friend to all I guess, still loved by the fans but never quite getting that run at the top he seemed set for.

[James Casey]

[QUOTE=Eisen-verse;503231]Honestly, This is why I love Vengeance. A lot of people trash on him because his skills aren't amazing, however, he's an amazing character and someone that is a lot of fun to book. There are so many ways you can go about it that he poses a new look in every journal. [/QUOTE] I'm a lot more up on Vengeance these days now he has a really good picture :D

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=cappyboy;503174]Maybe. But this being a different universe the CVerse fans might just rally around Eisen more than we in reality would Vince. In any event, I like it. It's got a classic old-school feel to it and turning Eisen face is thinking so far out of the box that it could make a very worthy journal . The fact a move like this can even be considered just shows how malleable the CVerse is.[/QUOTE] Hell, one of my first steps in my USPW save was turning Sam Strong heel.

[foolinc]

[QUOTE=Phantom Stranger;503309]Hell, one of my first steps in my USPW save was turning Sam Strong heel.[/QUOTE] But whose side is he on, brother? ;)

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=foolinc;503312]But whose side is he on, brother? ;)[/QUOTE] Don't worry, I successfully avoided flagging up the turn like that.

[The Masked Orange]

I think the way to go is not to bring Jack Bruce as a viable threat. Try hiring an even bigger unstoppable monster to beat him down, but make sure his technical skills are still low enough to make it beleivable if someone like Christan Faith beats him. Try sending Mharat Khoklov to SWF and build him into at least an upper midcarder so he could take the title after Vengeance after having some time to play with it.

[cappyboy]

[QUOTE=The Phenom;503274]Or it could be revealed that Eisen is controlling Vengence to rid of anyone who tries to challenge his authority. Vengence is his weapon to anyone who doesn't conform to his vision. Perhaps he was even the one who planted the seeds in Skulls mind leading to him becoming Vengence in the first place. All the while Vengence is mowing down any one in his path as part of Eisen's "holy war" people are wondering where Bruce is, who is to broken in mind and spirit. This leads to everyone to cry out to Bruce to please come back and slay the monster (both Vengence and Eisen) once and for all.[/QUOTE] Man, another great take. Plenty of new-school darkness and attitude from Vengeance and Eisen building up to the classic theme of "Please come back, Our Hero, and slay the monster." And to slay him, it takes a marquee gimmick match a la the Steel Cage match of old or Hell In A Cell to finish the story off. I would gladly watch a storyline like this if I were a fan in the CVerse.

[Stennick]

That is the exact feel I'm going for. Vengeance has destroyed not only Jack Bruce but all of the SWF there is no end in sight and the only man that stands a chance at beating this monster and taking back the promotion from this beats hands is a both literally and physically vengeance seeking Jack Bruce.