The Kimbo Slice Saga

[Superkevd]

So recently, infact consistently Dana White has been bad mouthing Kimbo Slice and has said perhaps in jest that he would only take him to put on The Ultimate Fighter. Now I'm no Donald Trump and I'm certainly not a Kimbo Slice fan but surely his bias against Kimbo is bad for business. The guy is well known and marketable in terms of money the UFC could make a lot from him which is surely what any business is trying to do. As I see it the UFC are trying to come across as a legitimate sporting competition with the finest athletes on the world on the roster(although I'm sure someone better informed than myself could make a convincing arguement that UFC is as much about entertainment and personalities than it is about being the best athletes in the world). This would be a convincing arguement if a certain Brock Lesnar wasn't just handed a world title shot in what his 5th MMA match but he was so that arguement is somewhat void. Personally I think Kimbo should be signed and threw in at the deep end, supposing Lesnar lost I would find it highly amusing to see him bounce back by destroying Slice and I'm sure a wide range of people would love to see such a fight or a similar fight. I think theres an outside chance White is saying these things to play mindgames with Slice in an attempt to gain control of proceedings but its probably more than likely hes probably just calling it as he sees it. What are you guys thoughts?

[FINisher]

My thought: Kimbo and Brock bring views, fans, buys: MONEY. I for one wasn't really all that interested in MMA before I heard that Lesnar would be competing in UFC. I wanted to see it. I wanted to see every match he would do. And now he's taking on Couture: A must see. And from that inspiration I started watching other fighters and started liking what I saw. I started searching matches, fighters, tried to see every great MMA match ever. Sure I had heard of Couture, Cro-Cop and Co., but Lesnar was the inspiration for me to watch MMA. Altough I do think that when Kimbo lost to that, Silverback dude (can't remember his name. Yes, I'm a new fan.) he lost huge momentum on that. It was just such a weak showing from Kimbo. He dropped like a rock, not even trying to defend himself. I laughed. But yeah, just like Lesnar, Kimbo loses his first matches, of course. But with more and more training and experience both of them could do really well in MMA. I'm really rooting for Lesnar and want him to be the greatest fighter ever.

[scorpion]

There's a big difference between Brock and Kimbo. Brock's first loss was to an experienced fighter who caught him in a submission when he made a mistake. Up to that point, Brock was dominating that fight. He followed that up with another dominating performance. And, I don't think handing Brock the title shot says anything negative about the UFC. Brock is hot right now and he's taking on a top fighter. If Randy wins then you have a champion that everyone sees as legitimate, and he's just beaten the hottest fighter in UFC. Brock has a lot of momentum, and his dominating performance, makes him a top contender for the belt. If he wins, he is legitimized, if he loses, he shown he's not ready and you build him up for another shot. Kimbo, on the other hand, was handed a tomato can in his first fight and only won because the guys ear exploded. He then gets knocked out in what, 5 seconds. Dana treats Kimbo like a nobody because he has proven to be just that. Tell me how big a draw Kimbo would be in the UFC right now. He get laughed out of the arena. Dana would have to build him up to the point where people could take him seriously again. Plus, now that a nobody knocked him out so fast, what does any UFC fighter have to gain by getting in the cage with him. They have more to lose.

[GardnerFTW]

One other thing about about the Lesnar title shot is a strong feeling I have that was one of the few fights Couture would agree to return to fight. Couture had discussed wanting to fight Lesnar before Lesnar had even signed with UFC. Without having Fedor, Lesnar was probably the only fight out their that could lure Couture back into the octagon, and likely one of the few fights that would be a big enough draw to give Randy the payday he wanted as well. So I personally think the title shot was more about getting Couture back into the octagon rather than giving Lesnar a title shot.

[CQI13]

I believe Kimbo is headed to Japan. And Dana White said he'd like to have Kimbo in the UFC just to "embarrass him all the way back to Youtube." I think a big part of the beef White has with Kimbo is that he saw the XC event on CBS with Kimbo & Thompson to be so amateurish, that he said he had some deals on the table that fell through because they were equating XC with UFC/MMA.

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=Superkevd;518471]So recently, infact consistently Dana White has been bad mouthing Kimbo Slice and has said perhaps in jest that he would only take him to put on The Ultimate Fighter. Now I'm no Donald Trump and I'm certainly not a Kimbo Slice fan but surely his bias against Kimbo is bad for business. The guy is well known and marketable in terms of money the UFC could make a lot from him which is surely what any business is trying to do.[/QUOTE] I think the problem with your argument is that it's extremely short-sighted - while businesses are trying to make money, no sensible business is going to sacrifice long-term stability and growth for a short-term artificial boost. Slice would be good for maybe one or two buy-rate "pops", if that, as casual fans tune in for curiosity value. That's about his entire worth to the promotion, as his age and skill level do not make him a long-term prospect in any way (unlike Lesnar who could potentially be around for years and is only going to improve over time). Firstly, UFC don't need those buy-rate pops; they're already doing extremely good business. Secondly, it'd alienate a lot of their fans who don't see Kimbo as a genuine MMA fighter (which is why the comparison with Brock fails - although UFC fans don't like the fact he came from the WWE, most at least respect the fact that he's an amazing athlete with a solid background and enormous potential). There's no point getting a ton of ill-will from their existing fans for very little benefit. Thirdly, it goes against everything UFC is about. They are, quite rightly, promoting themselves as being a highly competitive sports organisation, which is why they don't have the "freak matches" that Pride did. Bringing in a guy with little skill who made his name through illegal street fighting actively goes against that, not to mention giving their critics a huge extra target to go after. Hiring Slice would be a desperation tactic, and UFC are nowhere near being desperate.

[Superkevd]

Kimbo is still 34 only a few years senior of Brock Lesnar, 4 years younger than chuck liddell, 11 years younger than randy couture. While I take heed of the points everyone has made about Kimbos lack of ability and appeal after an unconvincing loss, hes still potentially not finished. In my opinion the Brock Lesnar situation IS a marquee match, Lesnar technically has a worse MMA record than Slice and 2-1 is never the record of a world title contender. If he he goes on to lose to a bunch of nobodies or if he decides he wants to be a footballer or wrestler again the UFC will still look foolish so I think theres slight bias in some of the posts made in this thread. Right now hes not beat a top contender, while Heath Herring is a solid fighter he is never gonna be world champion, hes lost to any top guy hes fought. How many people expect Junior dos Santos to get a title shot in his next fight? He brutally knocked out Fabricio Werdum in his UFC debut and has a far superior 7-1 MMA record and UFC record than Lesnar. Also Werdum had to have been higher ranked than Herring in the UFCs list of contenders. Its not gonna happen and it shouldn't happen because hes still untested but the same applies for Lesnar. Finally the UFC has had a freak match in recent history although I'm sure many people would debate it when 39 year old Royce Gracie was brought in to headline a PPV against Matt Hughes. While ROyce Gracie is undoubtably a MMA legend and his every right to be in the octagon he was brought in for 1 match basically to showcase the ability of Matt Hughes. I accept this is a bit of a stretch but it still serves to prove that its not always the top ranked fighters in the world who get the headlining positions. I dont buy the pure athlete aproach people are saying the UFC are trying to enforce, they have a reality show in which they build characters of fighters to the public, on said reality shows the team captains are competitors who will soon go head to head which in turn serves as hyping up that fight and on said shows the fighters who get on have been through an interview stage of the recruitment process to determine if they have enough of a personality to be put on the show in the first place. To summarise the UFC is every bit about being entertaining as it is about being the top athletes in the world.

[Bigpapa42]

I have to admit that I've compared the handling of Kimbo Slice by Elite XC to the handling of Brock Lesnar by the UFC many times. To me, the primary similarities in the business logic behind attempt to capitalize on an asset. That said, they are very different situations. And I'm honestly not the hugest fan of either fighter, though the saga of each interests me. The UFC was able to logically justify giving Brock Lesnar the secondary main event on a pay per view quite easily. For one, he was fight an ex-champion. Two, he had a legimiate athletic background in collegiate wrestling to justify it as well. The reality is that Mir was 2-2 in his last 4 UFC fight, the last of which was on the undercard of a PPV, and was probably on his last UFC legs heading into the fight. Lesnar had to headline or co-headline that card because of the money that the UFC was investing in him, and they were doing that due to his popularity. His popularity was not due to his college wrestling background but his pro wrestling background. Still, the UFC could make it sound legit. Much like they could point to Royce Gracie's history as the reason for him to fight Matt Hughes. With Kimbo Slice, that "perception of legitimacy" is not there. The guy's background is a street fighter. That's tough to spin into something more positive and "acceptable". Of course, thats an issue that UFC can certainly just overlook if it chooses to. The bigger issue is that Kimbo's biggest selling point - his aura, if you will - has been shattered. He's just another big tough guy with a heavy punch - a modern day Tank Abbott. The biggest reason that the UFC wouldn't bother with Slice - beyond that Dana White has thrown some much verbal crap at him that it makes any deal kinda unlikely - is that its a poor investment. Kimbo isn't going to sign with the UFC for cheap. He was making a boatload from Elite XC and I'm sure he'll get paid very very well in Japan, especially when you consider the endorsements that fighting Japan lands you. If the UFC did throw a big money contract at Kimbo, it means they have to headline him, or close to it. At this point, that's very very dangerous. I just don't think the interest would be there to make it worthwhile in terms of buys. Now, if we play "what if" and pretend that Elite XC folded before Kimbo lost to Petruzelli... He's still undefeated, though looking less unbeatable after the "interesting" win over Thompson this summer... Is the UFC interested then? Maybe moreso. But its still a big risk. Lesnar was a smarter investment, simply because the pro wrestling background and the fans that brought to the table meant that he was still a marketable product once the shine wore off (which it did to large extent in the fight with Mir). Now even if Couture schools Lesnar and makes him look like a big kid getting spanked, Lesnar is still going to be the point where his name, if not his image, is going to be on the poster for the next PPV he's on. He's still going to be a selling point. Would that be the case in our little "what if" scenario if Kimbo came into the UFC undefeated and went 1-2 in his first three fights? I don't think its likely.

[ACCBiggz]

While a lot of things have been hit on... this isn't anything recent with Dana not liking Kimbo. Dana, the Fertitta's, and Joe Silva have hated him for a long time and even brought in Sean Gannon for a fight because he beat Kimbo in a "street fight". People really need to get over Brock Lesnar getting a title shot. He is a ex-NCAA champion, only loss was a quick submission after dominating former UFC Champion Frank Mir, AND he completely dismantled the then #2 UFC Title contender in Heath Herring. He's ONLY getting a shot because Couture is coming back. Had Couture not come back it would have been Mir vs. Nog, then the winner vs. Werdum (until he lost to Dos Santos). So he would have fought at least once more... but with Couture coming back, needing an opponent, and Lesnar coming off a victory over Herring... it made sense on all levels. The UFC weren't going to just go sign anyone big to fight Couture because their division was lacking.

[Pampero Firpo]

Based solely on MMA performance, I don't think anyone can argue that Lesnar is deserving of a title shot. He is a great prospect with a legitimate wrestling background and immense physical talents, but he's only 1-1 in the cage. The fight against Mir told the whole story about Lesnar at this point in his career. He showed his massive potential and raw talent -- but also showed his inexperience. If he didn't have the popularity and name recognition from his WWE days he wouldn't be in this position yet -- he would have needed to win a couple more fights and gain valuable experience in the cage before competing for the title. That said, I have no problem with the UFC giving him the title shot. Combat sports aren't just about the competition -- they're about selling tickets and making money. Lesnar's popularity and name recognition will help sell a lot of tickets and PPVs, and that's the bottom line. And while he's certainly quite green, his superior size and athletic talent could offset his inexperience and allow him to get the victory. I think he would have been better served to get a few more fights under his belt first, but I can understand why he's getting the shot now. He'll help generate a lot of cash and losing to someone like Couture (or Mir, for that matter) this early in his career won't really hurt him.

[ACCBiggz]

[QUOTE=Pampero Firpo;519064]Based solely on MMA performance, I don't think anyone can argue that Lesnar is deserving of a title shot. He is a great prospect with a legitimate wrestling background and immense physical talents, but he's only 1-1 in the cage. The fight against Mir told the whole story about Lesnar at this point in his career. He showed his massive potential and raw talent -- but also showed his inexperience. If he didn't have the popularity and name recognition from his WWE days he wouldn't be in this position yet -- he would have needed to win a couple more fights and gain valuable experience in the cage before competing for the title.[/QUOTE] Ok, I know you are fine with him getting a title shot, but just based on this and his record and so forth... like I said in my post: At the time of the demolition of Heath Herring (#3 contender at the time behind Werdum and Mir) Lesnar catapulted himself up to Heath's spot because of how shallow the division is/was. I just wish people would stop looking at the record and saying how Brock is inexperienced on the ground. Yes he is, but so are a lot of fighters, and everyone can get caught. If you look at total performance Brock has only not dominanted about 5 seconds, and that's the kneebar. But he beat the #3 contender down, the #2 contender was already scheduled for a fight, and then Randy came back. So naturally... just looking at everything, Brock gets the shot.