Is the cornellverse filled with too many talented wrestlers?

[Kobe1724]

Just looking at it compared to mods like ATT.

[Stennick]

I think its filled with less really. I know the Cornellverse is current day but when I look at it I look at wrestling from about 96-99 when it was at its absolute multi promotional peak. You had WWF, WCW, ECW, SEVERAL hot indy shows and the international flavor. Thats sort of where your at now with the big three SWF, TCW and USPW. Then several very good smaller indy's such as CZCW, PSW, MAW, etc. So really I think it balances itself out. In order to have that many promotions I think you need to have enough talent to go around otherwise what is the point.

[Derek B]

In response to the original question... I would say yes. The default Cornellverse has been adapted over time and the forumlas for working out results, show ratings and whatnot is now balanced more towards the main event in 08, when in 04 it used to be an average of every segment in the show. The result is that a few talented main eventers can carry a promotion waaaay high, meaning we now get a LOT of promotions rising very far up the food chain... ... while promotional wars and the like counter balance this in a way, it does end up having massive wars all over the world because the balance of good workers required for good promotions is now far askew from the original base. Don't know about real world mods generally though... but if I were to venture an opinion based on the ones I've looked at, I'd say that talent is generally over-rated, but popularity is often under-rated at the top... and over-rated at the bottom. And as for wrestling circa 96-99.... I wouldn't say there were more talented workers around back then. I'd just say that there was more exposure to a larger number of workers and that this means that many workers were more over than there are now, along with the wrestling industry hitting a high peak. Not sure it's the same thing in the Cornellverse though, but comparisons are always going to be made. :)

[Self]

I think there are more in the C-Verse than there are in real life, but it needs that number for gameplay purposes. The C-Verse offers a whole bunch of different companies to play as, and therefore there has to be a lot of characters with the skills to keep them afloat. It's a balance issue. I know I'd hate to start a game with a less popular promotion, like CGC, and find I only have 3-4 talented guys. I'd quit and start with someone else. It's all about options.

[Phantom Stranger]

[QUOTE=Kobe1724;537190]Just looking at it compared to mods like ATT.[/QUOTE] You're looking at the data the game is designed to run with, comparing it to mods, and asking whether the original is flawed because it doesn't match them? There might be a twist in your logic somewhere.

[infinitywpi]

I would say no.. the Cornellverse isn't supposed to be a mirror for this world, it's a world where pro wrestling is very, very different, and still quite popular... think of it as if the 'wrestling boom' of the 90s had never ended. Think of what wrestling would be like right now if WWE was still pulling 8/9 ratings, WCW never died, ECW hit National, a handful of new Cult promotions opened up, etc, etc, etc. There'd be a lot more people getting trained, a lot more people with natural talent getting involved, and a lot more talented workers as a result. What'll be really interesting is when wrestling starts shrinking in the Cverse, and you wins up with a lot of talent concentrated in one place... too many egos for one company, like WCW had...

[lazorbeak]

I think the only issue is how many young talents out there debut with stats so good they're immediately ready to be signed anywhere, so you get a lot of 19 year olds being triple booked across the country.

[infinitywpi]

Maybe in addition to 'Reputation' we need an 'Experience' stat... companies above a certain size won't book you (except to a Developmental contract) if you have a low Experience, and low experience means you won't get booked by more than one company, because the others don't know how well you'll handle it...

[Kobe1724]

I'm using the cornellverse as a reference as I re-balance my own mod, so hopefully it isn't [I]too [/I]stacked. :)

[Blackman]

Right now in my 1997 game, promotion are doing WAAAY too good. SWF was Global after a few years (after being Cult for a while with F+ prestige), and PGHW surprisingly is Global too. This poses problems for BHOTWG, GCG & 5SSW, who have been on the verge of National but keep plummeting again since the two main promotions are too damn good. On average: like it's said here, the big emphasis on the last match is really allowing promotions to gain pop very quickly. Sometimes, due to some retarded booking, promotions book a tag team match between lower midcarders as their main event, which plummets their popularity, sometimes even allowing them to drop to cult. That's the only thing that gives me the edge on the AI promotions. :) As for an experience stat. As for WWE, i don't think they regard experience so high as they regard looks, for one...

[Kobe1724]

So what are everyone's thoughts then? I am re-balancing my mod the Kobeverse right now: [url]http://67.19.230.90/~arles/forum/showthread.php?t=36264&highlight=kobeverse[/url] [url]http://67.19.230.90/~arles/forum/showthread.php?t=35892&highlight=kobeverse[/url] Using Cornellverse as a reference in this way: Example: That is to say, in order to get the right number of basics at each grade level: Cornellverse: 643 eligible workers in the US 41 with A basics or higher 41/643=about 6 percent. GDSverse: 373 eligible workers in the US 373*.06=21. So 21 workers of the 373 US workers should have an A in basics or higher for a functional game world based on the data so far. A bit tedious but I assumed the Cornellverse was designed to run in he TEW engine and this system approximates about what kind of numbers I thought I should be looking for and allows me to strike a nice balance. So I take the 21 highest rated wrestlers in basics and keep/allow them to stay at A or better and drop anyone else to B and B+ Then see if I am over/under the B+ number by doing the same thing. Thing is if the Cornell-verse is hyper inflated I don't want to do this. I counted 41 workers in the US alone that had an A basics or higher, as opposed to about 6 in mine. I'm sure part of that was me underrating, but where is the nice balance? Conversely Cornellverse underrated psych compared to me. I dunno, anyone mind dowloading the Kobeverse (Control f type in Kobeverse on this link and you'll find it: [URL="http://www.bobinc.net/TEW08Downloads.html"]http://www.bobinc.net/TEW08Downloads.html[/URL] ) and letting me know where you think the balance is at in the game at the moment?

[Derek B]

I say that over-rating basics is better than over-rating psychology. Ring psychology is something that is increasingly rare these days, with few in the WWE being truly able to tell a great match any more. There are a number of veterans who obvously fit the bill for having great psych, but most of them don't, and indy workers generally can't put together a great match, merely an exciting match, but not one that tells a psychological story. Basics... well, many indy workers ARE good at the basics, as are many of the WWE roster. Having high basics is necessary in order to look at all professional but psychology is something you can be led through by others, or have scripted before a match, or even barely have to worry about if your matches are short enough. So, um, yeah... go wild with the basics to whatever level you wish, but remember that psychology isn't such a common skill and should be made to be important by ensuring it is scarce. :)

[scorpion]

[QUOTE=lazorbeak;537728]I think the only issue is how many young talents out there debut with stats so good they're immediately ready to be signed anywhere, so you get a lot of 19 year olds being triple booked across the country.[/QUOTE] Because promotions all over the country wouldn't be falling over themselves to book Reid Flair and Ricky Steamboat Jr. What? You assume that a "debuting" worker has never worked before, but thats not the case. Read the profiles, they have gone through training, some have even worked small independents. The young hot workers in real life will work for several companies just as they do in the cornellverse. It actually makes more sense for a young worker to work for as many companies as possible to build up overness. As to the op, comparing real world mods to cornellverse just doesn't work. The only real world mod that has worked as well as the cornellverse was dboone's because he understood how stats had to be balanced to work within the game.

[lazorbeak]

[QUOTE=scorpion;538419]Because promotions all over the country wouldn't be falling over themselves to book Reid Flair and Ricky Steamboat Jr. What? You assume that a "debuting" worker has never worked before, but thats not the case. Read the profiles, they have gone through training, some have even worked small independents. The young hot workers in real life will work for several companies just as they do in the cornellverse. It actually makes more sense for a young worker to work for as many companies as possible to build up overness. As to the op, comparing real world mods to cornellverse just doesn't work. The only real world mod that has worked as well as the cornellverse was dboone's because he understood how stats had to be balanced to work within the game.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, but no sale. Even if we're talking about legacies, you don't have every major indy simultaneously trying to sign a 19 year old kid. But these kids come out with stats that make them immediately better than 95% of the existing workers. I mean, did Ted and Mike DiBiase get so much work because they were so amazingly talented, or did they get work because their dads were famous, and they improved in the ring? Show me the 17 year old who is a full-time traveling wrestler with major independents and I'll show you Jay Chord. Even the Briscoes were only hired in the tri-state area.

[Blackman]

Psychology should indeed not be overdistributed, but that's not the case in the C-Verse imo. A-psychology workers are relatively rare.

[Remianen]

[QUOTE=derek_b;537294]In response to the original question... I would say yes. [/QUOTE] Qualify that, derek. On the women's side, that is by no means the case. The skill levels of women's workers in the default C-Verse is enough to maintain what already exists, filling in the few spots that open up when 5SSW (and maybe NOTBPW) grows a level. But given the rate at which women workers retire, it is not sufficient to truly have a thriving (and growing) niche in an ongoing game. That is, unless the existing workers luck out and have several debut with high potential/skill caps/destiny. There's a reason the same handful of workers wind up working in the maximum number of promotions possible.

[Derek B]

[quote=Remianen;538778]Qualify that, derek. On the women's side, that is by no means the case. The skill levels of women's workers in the default C-Verse is enough to maintain what already exists, filling in the few spots that open up when 5SSW (and maybe NOTBPW) grows a level. But given the rate at which women workers retire, it is not sufficient to truly have a thriving (and growing) niche in an ongoing game. That is, unless the existing workers luck out and have several debut with high potential/skill caps/destiny. There's a reason the same handful of workers wind up working in the maximum number of promotions possible.[/quote] The women's market is a niche, as you say, so it's hard to see how they factor into the overall game world when they are such a small part of it. I agree with you in that there needs to be more female wrestlers joining the world if they leave it so early, there simply isn't enough to maintain the women's side of things for a long period of time. Can't argue that. But on the overall arc of things, the mainstream side of the game where the majority of the talent is and that ALL the major companies are involved in (read: men's wrestling) there is too much talent. Case in point: when we were developing TEW08 Adam said the new AI was getting far too many A* matches. Rather than lower the skills of the workers, he raised the standard required for an A* match to happen from 95.1 to 99.1. If even the creator of the game says that there are too many top grades around for the game, then there must be an issue with the data. But rather than tone down the workers involved, which might be counter productive to some, he just changed the grade so that A* was rarer. If so many workers are capable of producing A-A* matches that the game had to be changed to incorporate it, then I say there is a flaw. And for those that play the Cornellverse 1997, I'm sure you will have noticed that there aren't such issues in the mod there. A* matches have always been rare, rarer now obviously that the threshold has been changed too. They aren't impossible, but they geniunely require top tier workers to achieve. Off the top of my head it takes matches like Chord vs Strong, McFly vs Keith, Dan Stone Jr vs Jeremy Stone, Kikkawa vs Kudo, Kitoaji vs Ichihara to have a potential A* match... and even then, it takes chemisty to assure it. Guys like Christian Faith, Dread, Elemental and Danger Kumasaka might be able to pull some out too. I feel the mod is better balanced as a result of not many workers being able to pull out A and A* matches... which means the Cverse97 doesn't suffer from having 10 cult promotions inside one year. I often feel the current database ends up with overcrowding at the top, though that is my preference, but the 97 database fits a more real world balance, with a couple of big promotions and many smaller promotions. Just my opinion of course. :)

[Kobe1724]

Where do you think the problem is coming in though. There aren't more than 1015 people in the entire game world with a B+ or better in most wrestling stats (brawling, puro mat etc.). As I said basics are overrated, but is that really what's driving the ratings up?

[Derek B]

[quote=Kobe1724;538796]Where do you think the problem is coming in though. There aren't more than 1015 people in the entire game world with a B+ or better in most wrestling stats (brawling, puro mat etc.). As I said basics are overrated, but is that really what's driving the ratings up?[/quote] There are 31 active workers in the default database with B+ in one of the filterable in-ring stats. There are also 110 workers of various roles who have B psychology or higher. I've not even looked at overness, but with the way Japan (in particular) works, they gain overness so fast there that WLW can create stars out of no-one in less than a year. North America is actually a region I have no problems with, they have enough to produce stars but a few key injuries can destroy a promotion's chances of growth. But Japan... workers get over so fast thanks to touring promotions that I think they need to be looked at for the balance of the game there. I'd consider adding a mechanic that takes into account the long term physical wear and tear that so many matches takes on a human body. Something similar to WMMA's gradual wear and tear, so that having a lot of matches, especially in a high intensity environment, will mean that workers have a shorter career AND will have an adverse effect on their matches in the long run too. I can imagine that it would mean workers develop at a decent rate, reach their talent peak at maybe 30 when they hit their prime, then slowly decline physically from there on. Even if it could be tied to road agent notes it would be great. "Work the crowd" would mean workers wouldn't risk themselves much, ideal for protecting young talent and veterans. No note would mean they'd go with product defaults for wear and tear. "All out match" would cause more wear and tear, ideal for big matches with stars in their prime. And worker stats would have more of an impact too. Tough/resilient workers would be more immune to wear and tear. Stiff workers would cause more wear and tear. I know a lot of this is already in the game, but the idea of wear and tear (on top of the fatigue mechanic) happening appeals to me. A worker wouldn't ever need a major injury to be the cause of retirement, simply being wore down over years would do it. Likewise, different rates of wear and tear for different worker styles and promotion types would significantly impact who works where. USPW's low intensity product is ideal for veterans and for youngsters cutting their teeth to learn their trade. SWF and CGC are ideal for long careers for the less intense workers. TCW and NOTBPW are good for skilled workers but have plenty of room for charismatic entertainers too. The major Japanese promotions would all be good for intense, stiff, work rate driven workers. Mexico would continue to be in the middle, allowing for many kinds of worker. I'm not sure how clear this is... but I know what I mean and I like the sound of it. :)

[Editor6]

[QUOTE=scorpion;538419]As to the op, comparing real world mods to cornellverse just doesn't work.[/QUOTE] This is the correct answer to the OP. Either that or "No." :) Seems like in every real-world mod since TEW... well, became TEW, the biggest complaint is that the stats are unrealistically inflated. So if anything, it may well be the opposite. [QUOTE=lazorbeak;538438]I'm sorry, but no sale. Even if we're talking about legacies, you don't have every major indy simultaneously trying to sign a 19 year old kid. But these kids come out with stats that make them immediately better than 95% of the existing workers. I mean, did Ted and Mike DiBiase get so much work because they were so amazingly talented, or did they get work because their dads were famous, and they improved in the ring? Show me the 17 year old who is a full-time traveling wrestler with major independents and I'll show you Jay Chord. Even the Briscoes were only hired in the tri-state area.[/QUOTE] I think you might be overstating what scorpion said. Are you talking about the young/debuting workers in real-world mods? Because to that, I would say (er, repeat) this: [QUOTE=scorpion;538419]The only real world mod that has worked as well as the cornellverse was dboone's because he understood how stats had to be balanced to work within the game.[/QUOTE] The Briscoes are a bad example IMO because that was a completely different era. Word travels much faster these days.

[MiddleGA]

[QUOTE=Editor6;539080]The Briscoes are a bad example IMO because that was a completely different era. Word travels much faster these days.[/QUOTE] I'm going to take a stab at this and guess he meant Mark & Jay, not Jack & Jerry.