Help me evaluate TEW

[Donners]

I've been weighing up whether to buy TEW 08, and with the slight discount available at the moment, now is as good a time as any. However, I have encountered a number of frustrations in the demo which make me reluctant to get it. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of those who have played the game more than I have to see if I'm misunderstanding things which I complain about.

 

So that you understand my perception of the game, I've written it in a review format. It actually sounds more negative than it is - I really like the concept of the game, but a lot of things frustrate me. As I said, please let me know if those frustrations are based on misconceptions from my limited amount of play. If they are not as bad as I thought, then it may be worth getting.

 

 

Total Extreme Wrestling is in many ways a remarkable game. Its origins come from a freeware game which, though fun, was quite simplistic and predictable. TEW, on the other hand, offers a vast array of options, variations and possibilities. Still, in some ways its complexity takes away a lot of the fun, to the point that it can be quite tedious and frustrating.

 

Each person in the game is unique, with preferred location, current status (active, semi-retired, retired, on hiatus, even dead!), ratings for each of the various wrestling styles, looks, mic and acting ability and a vast array possible personalities, from sexual preference to religiousness or drug abuse. These are displayed, where appropriate, through clear, obvious letter grades which are helpfully colour coded. Neat summaries provide an at-a-glance summary of workers and comprehensive stats are just a few clicks away. Some personality stats are hidden, though generalised lines can indicate a potential trouble-maker.

 

Though there has been some criticism of the game's navigation, once you learn where everything is, every screen is only a few clicks away. Bookmarks could perhaps improve things, but at least most items have relevant hotlinks.

 

TEW comes with its own imagined wrestling world. It is large enough to be diverse and able to develop naturally. Each company and worker is distinct and possess their own history, which has further evolved over the different editions of the game. It really creates a feeling of being part of an active world, with many interesting articles popping up in the news screen.

 

The game is very moddable. Not only can you add and modify all the wrestler, company and location data, to the point where quality real-world mods can be produced, even some in-game features can be created. If you want to make your own storylines or angles, you can. These are not flawless, but it's an impressive amount of freedom.

 

Unfortunately, it is not all positive. Indeed, the many positives of the game only make the shortcomings more frustrating, because it highlights how much unrealised potential there is for this to be a good game.

 

The business side of things is mixed. There are some good features, such as the talent trading between promotions and the negotiation screen. The contract negotiations are particularly impressive, with a series of back-and-forth offers in various categories. It is frustrating that there are options such as paying travel or relocation costs without any indication of what the actual cost may be in either the manual or game. Worse yet, these are not shown outside the negotiation screen, so you have no idea who has these deals, let alone their impact. Owners can be particularly annoying. Their goals are normally reasonable, but some - such as preventing you signing - or re-signing - wrestlers below a certain athletic ability - can really interfere with your plans. Popular older wrestlers who only wrestle part-time are common in every major real-world promotion, but TEW often prevents you from doing this. One particularly terrible example of owner interference came with a real world mod. Brock Lesnar made his return to the wrestling world, and I, as TNA, raced to sign him. However, I was not allowed to offer more than $25K per month - $10K below his demands. Every other combination failed, and negotiations ended. It is nonsensical that a major promotion in this position would not make the money available for one of the top stars in the wrestling world. The problem is not with the mod, but the game engine itself. You can effectively turn off owners, but that seems unfair when many of their goals are realistic and an interesting challenge.

 

This is made even more ridiculous by the talent exchange feature. You can agree with other promotions with whom you have the appropriate agreement to a talent trade for a certain number of shows. This is a nice idea, and some parts work quite well - the other promotion will only accept a decent deal, and only for a worker who suits their style. However, you must pay the borrowed worker their monthly wage for each show he appears in. By trading Kurt Angle, I got Jushin Liger for $25,000 per show - much more than they would let me pay PER MONTH for Lesnar. The high cost makes this feature rarely useful.

 

At the heart of a wrestling sim are the shows, and it is here that there are many weak points. The booking screen has improved greatly, so that almost all the relevant information is easily accessable through a minimum of clicks. However, the sheer number of segments you have to book can make this a very tedious and repetitive process. Trying to fill a 2-hour show every week is quite hard at times. Most companies need more wrestling per show than you'll ever see in real life, and even then you'll need plenty of filler segments, each of which need to be booked individually. You are punished for having the same matches more than a few times, and rightly so, but with a smallish roster, taking into account different card positions and face/heel divide, you can very quickly run out of options. Repeating the same angle doesn't attract the same penalty - so if a wedding works once, the same characters can get re-married each week if you want!

 

There is the ability to set the type of product your company provides, and there are at least helpful notes to let you know the impact of your tweaking. There is anexpectation of 80% of the show being matches on some of the modern settings, which is remarkable when real-life 2-hour shows often don't get above 30 minutes. However, you'll find yourself booking at 70-80% of matches, just because it's a bit less work than angles.

 

The process is also beset with frustrations. All too often, workers will be upset at losing to another. Sometimes this makes some sense, but often it doesn't - such as where there is minimal difference in the workers' popularity and role. Where a worker has creative control, this can be a nightmare, as they cannot be made to lose. Yes, there are real-world Hogans, Jarretts and HBKs, but the problem is that the game's own system doesn't work. There are options to make a win tainted, with cheating and interference, but this never seems to make the slightest difference to a reaction to a loss. Here's a stark example - a midcard worker of D- popularity and E+ respect says in response to a loss against a worker of E+ popularity and E+ respect that he wants the match booked to "have him look better". After numerous attempts, the match winds up with the former dominating, protected, hit by interference from three workers and suffering a tainted loss...and he still has the same complaint.

 

Storylines can also be quite obtuse, with angles and matches seemingly meeting the requirements of the next step failing to be recognised. With the punishment for multiple matches between workers, this can be a disaster. All it would take is a little note as you booked as to whether the segment would advance the storyline to eliminate this problem, but this is sadly absent. While it is not the fault of the game itself, many mods are riddled with errors when it comes to storylines, often crippling them if you aren't careful to check them before starting. I found that I always use unchained storylines, which advance every time the participants are together.

 

The worst problem is the outcomes you are presented with. You get nothing more than a single letter grade. While the game features "road agent notes", they are of mixed use. It is good to know that a worker was off for a particular match, or that somebody got tired by the end of the match. However, when something fails badly, there is often no indication why. You can often be told a worker came off looking bad from an angle, but is it because of their skills, their alignment, the angle itself?

 

Here's one example - two workers, with B- and A in flying skill and solid attributes generally, a good ref, a title on the line, each with decent momentum and told to go all out in a 10-minute match, their first together. The segment rates an E. The only note is that they have good chemistry. Two good workers, with good chemistry, apparently nobody having an off day - and it's a dismal failure. Why? Refusing to open up the inner workings of the game is one thing, but some feedback on what happened should be available.

 

It is nonsensical that there is no separate rating for crowd reaction to match quality, as EWR had. Playing a minor company, or going to a new area where you are unknown, makes it almost impossible to see what is going well, as almost every rating is in the bottom few ranks due to the low crowd reaction. Incidentally, why would people go to a wrestling show and not react to anything just because the wrestlers are not well known? A good match between two unknowns can still get the crowd involved, especially for a minor fed. With such little feedback available, it often feels like dumb luck when you get something to work, and it's hard to know how to replicate it. There are also some quite nonsensical complaints from the game that you are using a worker "far too much" - from as little as one or two segments.

 

While it is reasonable to expect an indi game to have solid copy protection, most users would be uncomfortable with a game installing a separate process which runs all the time and remains even after the game is uninstalled. The cost of $US35 is also quite high - at least at the price of a professional expansion, and not far from many full commercial releases.

 

TEW at least has the distinction of being the only major game of its type, and certainly has some good ideas. Unfortunately, they are buried under a mass of quirks and simple poor decisions.

[Adam Ryland]

I wouldn't bother buying it, based upon your comments - you seem to be the sort of player who likes every process to be transparent and every action\reaction explained so that you have total control, but that's not what TEW is about. What you call design flaws are intentional obfuscation designed to muddy the water and give a more realistic depiction of the confusion and gut-feelings that you would need in reality. It doesn't sound like you'd get much out of TEW, as it's clearly written from a totally different way of thinking to the one you want.

 

While it is reasonable to expect an indi game to have solid copy protection, most users would be uncomfortable with a game installing a separate process which runs all the time and remains even after the game is uninstalled.

 

I'd take issue with that paragraph BTW, as it seems you have taken your opinion and are passing it off as fact. There are several thousand people who have my games, and to my knowledge we've had one person who was not happy with the way the licensing software works. I don't see how that translates to "most users" unless you know of somewhere where several thousand people have voiced a negative opinion?

[mjdgoldeneye]

If you have the latest patch, you can see what a worker's travel expenses would be in the negotiation screen. It also shows the relocation cost.

 

Also, owner goals are intended to be roadblocks and objectives. If you find them detrimental to your enjoyment of the game, there's no reason to feel bad about playing freestyle as owner.

 

The talent trading feature is really an afterthought to me, but realistically, it's best used in smaller companies or (more importantly) with workers on pay-per-appearance contracts.

 

As far as the booking goes, one must find a company they enjoy booking. If you don't like short-match centric sports-entertainment companies with long shows, avoid them. I have trouble fitting everything I want in 2 hours with some companies I run! Also, keep in mind you can easily edit a company's product. Also, the repeat-match issue has been stretched to 4 matches in (I think) 6 months. That's reasonable. Keep in mind, too, that as long as the matches keep getting better, you won't have a problem. If you're worried about angles being successful over and over, simply don't book the same angles over and over! If you worry about the integrity of playing freestyle mode, surely you wouldn't manipulate the game mechanics!

 

The game has a reputation for being brutally hard and unwelcoming to new players, but after a month of tinkering, you'll enjoy it and get your money's worth for sure.

[D16NJD16]

 

 

It is nonsensical that there is no separate rating for crowd reaction to match quality, as EWR had. Playing a minor company, or going to a new area where you are unknown, makes it almost impossible to see what is going well, as almost every rating is in the bottom few ranks due to the low crowd reaction. Incidentally, why would people go to a wrestling show and not react to anything just because the wrestlers are not well known? A good match between two unknowns can still get the crowd involved, especially for a minor fed. With such little feedback available, it often feels like dumb luck when you get something to work, and it's hard to know how to replicate it. There are also some quite nonsensical complaints from the game that you are using a worker "far too much" - from as little as one or two segments.

 

 

Thats basically the only part of the review id agree with. But i'd say there have been alot of improvements since the original demo if that is in fact what the reviewer claims to be playing. And don't suggest a potential customer not buy the game adam, that's bad business.

[Comradebot]

I just want to know about that "E" match between high fliers he had:

 

1. What company were you using

 

2. What was the overness of the workers.

 

 

 

If he was using TNA, which in most mods should be based more on Popularity than Performance and the two workers in question were completely unknown, that'd explain the dismal E rating. Gotta say, I've got much better ratings out of worse workers in Popularity based companies.

[Adam Ryland]

And don't suggest a potential customer not buy the game adam, that's bad business.

 

I disagree. Putting aside the fact that it would be unethical to recommend him a game I don't think he'd enjoy (based upon his stated preferences), it's bad business to have unhappy customers. I'd rather he'd gain respect that I've given him an honest answer and perhaps try out some of the other GDS products that might be better suited to him than have him spend the next few months writing negative posts about not liking TEW and perhaps put off several other potential customers. Business is seeing the bigger picture.

[Bigpapa42]

Thats basically the only part of the review id agree with. But i'd say there have been alot of improvements since the original demo if that is in fact what the reviewer claims to be playing. And don't suggest a potential customer not buy the game adam, that's bad business.

 

Bad business? Maybe. But at least it's honest. How many companies out there - and not just game developers - would tell a potential customer whatever it takes to get their money, regardless of whether the product is really what they want and need?

 

It does seem like what the original poster is looking for is probably not going to be found in TEW. If it was one or two small issues with the game, it might be different. But that's a lot of concerns. If you are about spending your money very carefully, it is a risk.

[pepper2008]

And there are some business, the customer is never right! Just deal with it and enjoy the product (WWE and John Cena champ again:mad:)

[Donners]

I do appreciate an honest answer. I'm not looking to bag the game - I really want it to be good, because I see a lot of really great ideas in there, and I love the concept. I like wrestling and I love management games, and I think the idea that somebody has combined the two is brilliant.

 

Unfortunately, there's just enough frustration there in the demo for me to have second thoughts about buying it. I'm looking for people who are experienced with the game, who have played it a lot more than I have, to tell me if my reactions are misconceived due to my limited play. I'm certainly not looking to impose my opinions on others, since they're based on a limited form of the game without being part of the game's community.

 

Already some people have pointed out that patches have addressed at least one of my concerns, so I'll see if I can find a change list.

 

I don't want the game to be totally exposed, but I guess I have a different approach to the game's concept of how much things should be obscured.

[Rathen4]

I must point out one thing - by playing with Real World data you open yourself up to various issues - over/underinflated stats being one. The thing that stood out was the creative control clause - that is a HUGELY powerful thing in the game that only a very few people in the CV have (I can only think of Cornell actually, but then I don't play with SWF/TCW often). Real world mods might throw that particular gem around a lot more in the contracts making booking the big companies awful.

 

Give a CV game a try - you'll be like I was when I started - like a rabbit in headlights - but it lets you see the game as it was programmed - not as it was altered by a fan.

[Comradebot]

I must point out one thing - by playing with Real World data you open yourself up to various issues - over/underinflated stats being one. The thing that stood out was the creative control clause - that is a HUGELY powerful thing in the game that only a very few people in the CV have (I can only think of Cornell actually, but then I don't play with SWF/TCW often). Real world mods might throw that particular gem around a lot more in the contracts making booking the big companies awful.

 

Give a CV game a try - you'll be like I was when I started - like a rabbit in headlights - but it lets you see the game as it was programmed - not as it was altered by a fan.

 

Big Cat Brandon and Eric Eisen both have Creative Control, as does I think every owner.

 

Meaning Byron in EWA has creative control. Thankfully, Louis Figo Manico was awesome enough to get himself and other pushed ahead of Byron, who now gladly jobs to most of my other Main Eventers.

[Guest The Aussie]

Well, I would personally suggest trying out the Cornellverse also. This is the original data that came with the game and is made around the games engine.

The problem with a real world mod is that

 

1) People will often overrate or underrate certain wrestlers if they don't like them. E.G- In the 2007 T-Zone, Angel Williams has an F+ in Looks and Star Quality.

 

2) You already have a pre-conceived notion as to how certain wrestlers should be used.

 

If you try the C-Verse than try out CZCW or MAW.

 

One small thing though, the copyright protection is much better than what most professional companies use. Be grateful that securom isn't used.

[Phantom Stranger]

The business side of things is mixed. There are some good features, such as the talent trading between promotions and the negotiation screen. The contract negotiations are particularly impressive, with a series of back-and-forth offers in various categories. It is frustrating that there are options such as paying travel or relocation costs without any indication of what the actual cost may be in either the manual or game. Worse yet, these are not shown outside the negotiation screen, so you have no idea who has these deals, let alone their impact.

 

Latest patch shows you said costs on neg. Further, on your roster screen, select the worker you're interested in and clikc 'contract' to see what the travel costs are like.

 

Owners can be particularly annoying. Their goals are normally reasonable, but some - such as preventing you signing - or re-signing - wrestlers below a certain athletic ability - can really interfere with your plans.

 

So go against the owner goal and sign them. The owner will be POed, just like an owner would be in real life. If their personality's extremely pissy and controlfreakish, they'll block you. If not, you can skate by so long as you succeed on the other goals and don't do it too often.

 

Popular older wrestlers who only wrestle part-time are common in every major real-world promotion, but TEW often prevents you from doing this.

 

On the other hand, the C-Verse 97 mod features a number of 50+ year-olds working at least as occasional wrestlers. Love of the business as determined in part by the hidden Destiny stat determines how long someone will last before they retire. It's possible, it's just fairly rare.

 

One particularly terrible example of owner interference came with a real world mod. Brock Lesnar made his return to the wrestling world, and I, as TNA, raced to sign him. However, I was not allowed to offer more than $25K per month - $10K below his demands. Every other combination failed, and negotiations ended. It is nonsensical that a major promotion in this position would not make the money available for one of the top stars in the wrestling world.

 

That's a mod. If there's an issue with the owners in the mod or Brock's demands in the mod, the logical conclusion is likely to be that the modmaker has set the stats in a way which doesn't please you. (Which is to say, according to their own opinion of the situation). Owners have limits they won't go above which vary according to the size of their company. (Regional, Cult, National, etc). If TNA isn't still Cult I'm kind of puzzled by the mod, frankly.

 

The problem is not with the mod, but the game engine itself.

 

Really? Can you give us an example from the Cornellverse, the mod the game's designed to run smoothly with? Playing as a regional or cult promotion I tend to get turned down by the wrestler as too small outright when I go for bigger names. I've yet to have an issue getting a deal that works as a National or larger company in the C-Verse.

 

This is made even more ridiculous by the talent exchange feature. You can agree with other promotions with whom you have the appropriate agreement to a talent trade for a certain number of shows. This is a nice idea, and some parts work quite well - the other promotion will only accept a decent deal, and only for a worker who suits their style. However, you must pay the borrowed worker their monthly wage for each show he appears in. By trading Kurt Angle, I got Jushin Liger for $25,000 per show - much more than they would let me pay PER MONTH for Lesnar. The high cost makes this feature rarely useful.

 

Again, swings and roundabouts. I've had very few situations where the talent trade I offered was that expensive. The one time it's happened thus far, the trade in question was Yoshimi Musashibo, and Yoshimi regularly picks up Wrestler of the Year awards in C-Verse games. He is, quite literally, one of the two or three best worldwide.The increased amount they're willing to pay for a couple of Lyger appearances is probably due to the fact that these will be heavily-hyped 'special appearances', rather than committing to $35K per month for probably multiple years. How much did WCW pay for freaking Leno?

 

At the heart of a wrestling sim are the shows, and it is here that there are many weak points. The booking screen has improved greatly, so that almost all the relevant information is easily accessable through a minimum of clicks. However, the sheer number of segments you have to book can make this a very tedious and repetitive process. Trying to fill a 2-hour show every week is quite hard at times. Most companies need more wrestling per show than you'll ever see in real life, and even then you'll need plenty of filler segments, each of which need to be booked individually. You are punished for having the same matches more than a few times, and rightly so, but with a smallish roster, taking into account different card positions and face/heel divide, you can very quickly run out of options. Repeating the same angle doesn't attract the same penalty - so if a wedding works once, the same characters can get re-married each week if you want!

 

If you've got a smallish roster, why the hell are you trying to fill a two hour show? If you want fewer matches and more angles, lower the match ratio in the product. If you feel it's an inaccurate reflection of TNA (assuming this is still the RW mod you're playing) then, if the owner blocks it, alter it in the editor - mods aren't guaranteed to fit with your perception of the companies or wrestlers they describe. The editor's there to allow you to tweak that stuff.

 

As for repeating the same angles each week - take a look in the diary section at my diary 'Philly Power Pro Wrestling: Dangerous Dreams'. The running battle in recent Cahill's Corner skits between Man Mountain Cahill, Herb Stately, and Sammy Bach has been booked using the same angle over and over as far as the game is concerned because it operates on the same stats for the same participants each time. But Sammy gets a little more action every time, and two or three shows from now I'll be looking to write a new angle for the blowoff, just as I wrote a different angle during Cahill's issues with Wanda Fish for Tommy Cornell's debut segment - because it had to be rated on different things. Block you from running the 'Wedding' angle every week and I'm blocked from doing that. To TEW itself an angle is just a skit that rates these stats from these people.

 

There is the ability to set the type of product your company provides, and there are at least helpful notes to let you know the impact of your tweaking. There is anexpectation of 80% of the show being matches on some of the modern settings, which is remarkable when real-life 2-hour shows often don't get above 30 minutes. However, you'll find yourself booking at 70-80% of matches, just because it's a bit less work than angles.

 

Again, see above comments on product setting tweaking. You could say the same about angles - I have something like 150 in my usual saves, most of them imported from TEW07, some the game's defaults, and some that I've written as I've needed them. But because I book companies with fairly straightforward storylines, I generally just need a handful, and once they're written most of the issue is gone - select angle, select participants. Hell, you don't need to bother with road agent notes; I don't tend to see it as as much a problem as a match.

 

The process is also beset with frustrations. All too often, workers will be upset at losing to another. Sometimes this makes some sense, but often it doesn't - such as where there is minimal difference in the workers' popularity and role. Where a worker has creative control, this can be a nightmare, as they cannot be made to lose. Yes, there are real-world Hogans, Jarretts and HBKs, but the problem is that the game's own system doesn't work. There are options to make a win tainted, with cheating and interference, but this never seems to make the slightest difference to a reaction to a loss. Here's a stark example - a midcard worker of D- popularity and E+ respect says in response to a loss against a worker of E+ popularity and E+ respect that he wants the match booked to "have him look better". After numerous attempts, the match winds up with the former dominating, protected, hit by interference from three workers and suffering a tainted loss...and he still has the same complaint.

 

Yeah, some workers are *******s who wanna win the whole time, or won't lose to the undercard. Wrestling history is rife with real life examples of this, and the game models it; by and large I've found that low-level note described above can be ignored, it won't effect the match rating. If you don't want *******s to complain, either don't hire *******s or - y'know - don't think that guy is one? You've got the editor, and the modmaker's opinion might be different to yours.

 

Storylines can also be quite obtuse, with angles and matches seemingly meeting the requirements of the next step failing to be recognised. With the punishment for multiple matches between workers, this can be a disaster. All it would take is a little note as you booked as to whether the segment would advance the storyline to eliminate this problem, but this is sadly absent. While it is not the fault of the game itself, many mods are riddled with errors when it comes to storylines, often crippling them if you aren't careful to check them before starting. I found that I always use unchained storylines, which advance every time the participants are together.

 

Most seasoned players use few to no pre-written storylines. And yes, those in mods can quite often be broken. It's easy to tell, however, whether a segment will advance a storyline and from the 'Add Angle' and 'Add Match' sections you can access the storyline recap. Select the relevant storyline. Select the step within it. You'll see a "Must be a X" note, where X might be 'Hype angle starring Wrestler Y as a Catalyst and Wrestler Z as a subject' or '1 vs 1 match with Wrestler Y on Side 1 and Wrestler z on Side 2, with Side 1 winning'. If it's a match, are the relevant wrestlers on the relevant sides? Is the result the right one? Then you're fine. If it's an angle, is it the right type of angle? Are the right people selected? Are they in the roles (Subject, Catalyst, Victim, etc) the storyline demands? Then you're sorted.

 

You can often be told a worker came off looking bad from an angle, but is it because of their skills, their alignment, the angle itself?

 

When you select an angle it'll tell you what each participant is rated on. If they don't suck in that skill or in local popularity, you're fine. And it even tells you what their weak spot might be ahead of time.

 

Here's one example - two workers, with B- and A in flying skill and solid attributes generally, a good ref, a title on the line, each with decent momentum and told to go all out in a 10-minute match, their first together. The segment rates an E. The only note is that they have good chemistry. Two good workers, with good chemistry, apparently nobody having an off day - and it's a dismal failure. Why? Refusing to open up the inner workings of the game is one thing, but some feedback on what happened should be available.

 

Was the match rated solely on High Flying? Is your product weighted more toward Popularity than Performance? If so, are they over where the match was held? Did you script it? If yes, does your road agent's psychology suck? If no, do both of them have good psychology? Could it be a mix of small amounts of each of these?

 

We don't know. And the game can give a lot of hints, depending on the match, or it might give few if no single thing stands far enough out.

 

It is nonsensical that there is no separate rating for crowd reaction to match quality, as EWR had. Playing a minor company, or going to a new area where you are unknown, makes it almost impossible to see what is going well, as almost every rating is in the bottom few ranks due to the low crowd reaction.

 

Yeah. The full rating is for, essentially, how well it goes down with the crowd you have there, so a backyard match will never get an A*. But for a Regional promotion, for example, Es are poor, Ds are OKish, Cs are good and Bs are oh so sweet. You're small fry, so you have to adjust your expectations.

 

Incidentally, why would people go to a wrestling show and not react to anything just because the wrestlers are not well known? A good match between two unknowns can still get the crowd involved, especially for a minor fed.

 

Yup. Might well get a high E or a D, if your product encourages fans who prefer Popularity to Performance. If your product's settings rate Performance above Popularity, and they're performing in a style the product wants to encourage fans of, the fans will dig it. But they'd still dig an awesome match by better-known performers more as they'd understand some of the workers' history, would be waiting for their signature spots, etc.

 

There are also some quite nonsensical complaints from the game that you are using a worker "far too much" - from as little as one or two segments.

 

Think of Product as your advertising. It determines the kind of fans you attract. Now think of wrestlers' pushes as you set them as being the degree to which they feature in the advertising and other things. If all you see of Eric Young going into your first notable contact with TNA is a couple of clips of Abyss destroying him (if Eric's pushed as a Lower Midcarder or less) you're just not as interested. That's time, your fans think, you could have used showing us Sting. Again, the degree to which this happens is determined by Product.

 

Any or all of that may or may not help.

[Derek B]

I've been weighing up whether to buy TEW 08, and with the slight discount available at the moment, now is as good a time as any. However, I have encountered a number of frustrations in the demo which make me reluctant to get it. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of those who have played the game more than I have to see if I'm misunderstanding things which I complain about.

 

So that you understand my perception of the game, I've written it in a review format. It actually sounds more negative than it is - I really like the concept of the game, but a lot of things frustrate me. As I said, please let me know if those frustrations are based on misconceptions from my limited amount of play. If they are not as bad as I thought, then it may be worth getting.

 

As has been pointed out, TEW can be a bit overwhelming at first and not everything is clear. But then, the world of pro wrestling isn't anywhere near as clear cut as TEW itself, so I think we're in the positive here. Gonna address things throughout the rest of your post to see if I can help.

 

Some personality stats are hidden, though generalised lines can indicate a potential trouble-maker.

 

Just mentioning this because it's one of my favourite additions to TEW. The whole personality system comes off like Aristotle's virtues, with a healthy personality being somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. And with personalitoes developing over a long period of time, far longer than the demo could possibly show, the man management brought in here is awesome. Pushing youngsters in the demo will be unlikely to show any real negative effects unless they have a bad personality to start with... but in the long run you will give them an ego and can turn them into the next big whiny main event star that everyone backstage hates. So the level of thought you need to put into booking anyone is impressive. Also, as you mention it later, depending in personality types, workers will complain about losing. And while the varying road agent notes having little (no?) effect is frustrating, unless you get a horrible personality with creative control, you can generally make it up to the worker at a later date with a victory over someone.

 

TEW comes with its own imagined wrestling world. It is large enough to be diverse and able to develop naturally. Each company and worker is distinct and possess their own history, which has further evolved over the different editions of the game. It really creates a feeling of being part of an active world, with many interesting articles popping up in the news screen.

 

The Cornellverse is IMO the most fun dataset to play for TEW still. There are a lot of datasets out there, including various unofficial Cornellverse ones (including mine based in 1997, cheap plug!) and real world, but for the best play experience, specially for a first time, I recommend the Cornellverse. It's just a question of finding a promotion that suits your play style, which you don't yet seem to have done. Indicating your general preferences for real world wrestling should help us all to help you find the correct promotion for you... or to at least suggest a product setting for you to create your own with if there isn't a good one in the data already.

 

 

The business side of things is mixed. There are some good features, such as the talent trading between promotions and the negotiation screen. The contract negotiations are particularly impressive, with a series of back-and-forth offers in various categories. It is frustrating that there are options such as paying travel or relocation costs without any indication of what the actual cost may be in either the manual or game. Worse yet, these are not shown outside the negotiation screen, so you have no idea who has these deals, let alone their impact. Owners can be particularly annoying. Their goals are normally reasonable, but some - such as preventing you signing - or re-signing - wrestlers below a certain athletic ability - can really interfere with your plans. Popular older wrestlers who only wrestle part-time are common in every major real-world promotion, but TEW often prevents you from doing this. One particularly terrible example of owner interference came with a real world mod. Brock Lesnar made his return to the wrestling world, and I, as TNA, raced to sign him. However, I was not allowed to offer more than $25K per month - $10K below his demands. Every other combination failed, and negotiations ended. It is nonsensical that a major promotion in this position would not make the money available for one of the top stars in the wrestling world. The problem is not with the mod, but the game engine itself. You can effectively turn off owners, but that seems unfair when many of their goals are realistic and an interesting challenge.

 

I suggest playing Freestyle but setting your own personal goals and trying to stick to them. Your paragraph here seems to indicate that you want the owner goals, but don't want the tough ones or for the owner to keep a hold of the purse strings. Freestyle is also a better way to learn the game, as it gives you less to worry about early on. I'm playing a USPW game just now and my owner goals make it hard to sign a lot of good workers, as I'm never going to succeed with the money goal I was given so NEED to stick to the rest of the goals. It's a challenge, but it's ended up with me making some... interesting booking decisions and signings, specially thanks to the minimum C- charisma goal I've got. Means I can't sign the god that is Steve Flash even though he'd be sucj a great fit for me!

 

 

This is made even more ridiculous by the talent exchange feature. You can agree with other promotions with whom you have the appropriate agreement to a talent trade for a certain number of shows. This is a nice idea, and some parts work quite well - the other promotion will only accept a decent deal, and only for a worker who suits their style. However, you must pay the borrowed worker their monthly wage for each show he appears in. By trading Kurt Angle, I got Jushin Liger for $25,000 per show - much more than they would let me pay PER MONTH for Lesnar. The high cost makes this feature rarely useful.

 

I would also like to see this feature play out differently, but the AI would need to become significantly more sophisticated to be able to handle things the way they are done in "the real world". There are limits to what Adam can code, and while I know those limits are constantly being pushed further, I don't know if that level of AI is within his grasp... yet.

 

 

At the heart of a wrestling sim are the shows, and it is here that there are many weak points. The booking screen has improved greatly, so that almost all the relevant information is easily accessable through a minimum of clicks. However, the sheer number of segments you have to book can make this a very tedious and repetitive process. Trying to fill a 2-hour show every week is quite hard at times. Most companies need more wrestling per show than you'll ever see in real life, and even then you'll need plenty of filler segments, each of which need to be booked individually. You are punished for having the same matches more than a few times, and rightly so, but with a smallish roster, taking into account different card positions and face/heel divide, you can very quickly run out of options. Repeating the same angle doesn't attract the same penalty - so if a wedding works once, the same characters can get re-married each week if you want!

 

As has been said already, some of this has been tweaked and entirely avoided by clever booking and general improvements in your roster. Running a weekly show will mean you will inevitably repeat things over time, but as long as you don't do it too much (you basically have license to run the same match 6 times a year without penalty) then you are fine. As for booking a lot of segments... just watch a real wrestling show and count the number of segments they have. There is a lot going on, less than most people appreciate. TEW often reveals to play at home bookers just how much work is done by the major promotions, which is why a lot of people find it easier to start with small promotions. Personally... I like the challenge of weekly TV. My favourite ever games were with SWF (equivalent to WWE) that lasted almost 3 years and currently with USPW, going strong almost 1 year in. Shows take a while to book, but I like mixing angles and matches almost equally to tell stories outside the ring and inside too. It's all about finding your preferred style and working from there.

 

There is the ability to set the type of product your company provides, and there are at least helpful notes to let you know the impact of your tweaking. There is anexpectation of 80% of the show being matches on some of the modern settings, which is remarkable when real-life 2-hour shows often don't get above 30 minutes. However, you'll find yourself booking at 70-80% of matches, just because it's a bit less work than angles.

 

Also... real life 2 hour shows tend to run matches during the commericials... that often ends up being a lot more of the actual wrestling than we realise, but as bookers we book for the live crowd, not for the TV audience. So we book the full 120 minuntes of the show, rather than the 80ish minutes of TV we usually see. Afterall... the live crowd don't just sit around doing nothing when we aren't watching.

 

 

Storylines can also be quite obtuse, with angles and matches seemingly meeting the requirements of the next step failing to be recognised. With the punishment for multiple matches between workers, this can be a disaster. All it would take is a little note as you booked as to whether the segment would advance the storyline to eliminate this problem, but this is sadly absent. While it is not the fault of the game itself, many mods are riddled with errors when it comes to storylines, often crippling them if you aren't careful to check them before starting. I found that I always use unchained storylines, which advance every time the participants are together.

 

The game recognises all segments... the problem most people have is that they fail to meet the requirements of a storyline, which is user error rather than a problem with the game. Similarly, mods often have errors in them, but once again this is a user error rather than a game error. The Cornellverse has no such errors, so as a starting point it's still the best.

 

The worst problem is the outcomes you are presented with. You get nothing more than a single letter grade. While the game features "road agent notes", they are of mixed use. It is good to know that a worker was off for a particular match, or that somebody got tired by the end of the match. However, when something fails badly, there is often no indication why. You can often be told a worker came off looking bad from an angle, but is it because of their skills, their alignment, the angle itself?

 

Here's one example - two workers, with B- and A in flying skill and solid attributes generally, a good ref, a title on the line, each with decent momentum and told to go all out in a 10-minute match, their first together. The segment rates an E. The only note is that they have good chemistry. Two good workers, with good chemistry, apparently nobody having an off day - and it's a dismal failure. Why? Refusing to open up the inner workings of the game is one thing, but some feedback on what happened should be available.

 

It is nonsensical that there is no separate rating for crowd reaction to match quality, as EWR had. Playing a minor company, or going to a new area where you are unknown, makes it almost impossible to see what is going well, as almost every rating is in the bottom few ranks due to the low crowd reaction. Incidentally, why would people go to a wrestling show and not react to anything just because the wrestlers are not well known? A good match between two unknowns can still get the crowd involved, especially for a minor fed. With such little feedback available, it often feels like dumb luck when you get something to work, and it's hard to know how to replicate it. There are also some quite nonsensical complaints from the game that you are using a worker "far too much" - from as little as one or two segments.

 

Several things here. First of all, you sound like you are using a product setting that is rated a LOT more on popularity that performance. This generally means you need workers who are popular in order to have high rated matches, with skill being a lesser factor. I'd recommend trying a company who's product is rated more on performance than popularity as you may have significantly more success that way.

 

Messages... "came off looking bad" means that a worker looked bad compared to whoever else they were in the angle/match with. Keeny Dykstra might look great in a match with Funaki as Dykstra would be the bigger star... but he'd look terrible when put next to Triple H as it is clear who the bigger star is there. This is why it is best to keep people of a relatively similar card position together, as the crowd believe them to be equals and nobody seems out of place. Similarly the "used too much" note isn't to do with the number of segments a worker is in, but rather the amount of time a workers is used for in total on the show. Your top stars are expected to be the focus of the show and so you can get away with using them a LOT... but if you try to use Kung Fu Naki for 45 minutes of a show, the crowd are not going to care, no matter what he is doing. It's just too much Funaki (if indeed there is such a thing!), hence the message.

 

And the single grade for each segment... the game takes into account overness and skills, then weighs them up against your products settings, the crowd and the previous segments to determine the grade you see.

 

 

While it is reasonable to expect an indi game to have solid copy protection, most users would be uncomfortable with a game installing a separate process which runs all the time and remains even after the game is uninstalled. The cost of $US35 is also quite high - at least at the price of a professional expansion, and not far from many full commercial releases.

 

TEW at least has the distinction of being the only major game of its type, and certainly has some good ideas. Unfortunately, they are buried under a mass of quirks and simple poor decisions.

 

E-license is a strong copy protection protocol that doesn't even run as a background process, it is just there allowing you to play the game. The best analogy for describing it is like it's the CD, without which you can't listen to your music. Obviously it's not perfect, but it works. As for the price... I tend to weigh price vs use. If I get a lot of use out of something, I'm willing to pay more for it. And TEW has a long lifespan, thanks to the incredible mod making community, your own imagination and the vast array of things you can do in the game. While the basic principles remain the same (book shows -> gain popularity -> make money -> hire better people -> book better shows) no matter where you go, there are so many routes to take that it takes a long time to get tired of it, at least IMO.

 

TEW is a very deep game that you can't master simply by playing the demo. The more you play the game, the more you learn and the more you learn the better you can become. I've been playing this game longer than almost anyone thanks to being part of the testing team and I can honestly say that I still find new things to do all the time. And thanks to my brain being able to make up stories all the time, I never run out of new ways to play TEW.

 

Hopefulyl that's addressed many of the issues and questions you have, but if not, then ask more questions and I'll see if I can provide more answers.

[Nedew]

Hurrah for thoroughly exhaustive replies from our community cornerstones

[hakk99]

Rather than respond to each of the complaints individually, I'll just say that while there are often frustrating or unrealistic moments while playing I'm very happy I spent my 35 dollars on TEW. I've easily gotten my money's worth even if the game isn't perfect. In other words I understand your concerns, share some of them, and still enjoy the game immensely.

 

I'll admit the one change I hope to see in the future is workers taking the context of the match into consideration when lodging complaints or blocking booking. Others have said they've been able to appease workers but I've never had a change in road agent notes change a worker's reaction. I love the challenge of working around creative control or big egos, but when a worker won't even consider losing by DQ, count out, roll up, or interference (or in a tag match where his partner takes the pin) there's not a lot you can do, or at least not a lot that is fun.

[Bigpapa42]

I do appreciate an honest answer. I'm not looking to bag the game - I really want it to be good, because I see a lot of really great ideas in there, and I love the concept. I like wrestling and I love management games, and I think the idea that somebody has combined the two is brilliant.

 

Unfortunately, there's just enough frustration there in the demo for me to have second thoughts about buying it. I'm looking for people who are experienced with the game, who have played it a lot more than I have, to tell me if my reactions are misconceived due to my limited play. I'm certainly not looking to impose my opinions on others, since they're based on a limited form of the game without being part of the game's community.

 

Already some people have pointed out that patches have addressed at least one of my concerns, so I'll see if I can find a change list.

 

I don't want the game to be totally exposed, but I guess I have a different approach to the game's concept of how much things should be obscured.

 

There's no way to be sure. I can tell you that I love the game. I love sports management sim games, but I've never played much for wrestling based ones before. Not saying the game is perfect, but I have few complaints. But me loving it doesn't mean much in terms of whether you would find the same level of replay.

 

A few of the issues you've mentioned could be down to the mod you are using. Its awesome that there is great mod community to give us real world mods, but it does come down to the fact that the game is designed to be optimized for the default CornellVerse database. A lot of mods have small issues.

[Derek B]

...that the game is designed to be optimized for the default CornellVerse database...

 

It always amuses me when people say that. The game design and creation ALWAYS comes first, the data is second. Afterall, you can't create the data for the game without first having the game to play it on. The reason the data is so good is because it's the game creator who makes it, and as Adam knows all about his game, he knows how to make data to suit it.

 

Which is in itself why mod makers need to be good players of TEW to make a good mod. If you don't understand the game then it is very tough to make a strong mod for the game, which is where a lot of mod makers fail.

[Stennick]

I think the thing that bothers me most about this and I don't know why exactly is the fact that he wrote it as a review.

 

I mean why would someone brand new to the game, who obviously isn't in the business of computer game reviews write a review on a game and then use that as questions about the game?

 

Why wouldn't you just say I've played a month of this game and I'm not sure about it. Here are the things that concern me. Instead its written up like a review. He says he's not trying to push his opinions on others but honestly isn't that what a review is about? "Should I see this movie?", "Should I shop here", "Should I buy this car?". A reviewer is meant to shed some light on the subjects and offer an informative opinion.

 

I'm sure I'm the only one that feels this way but to me writing his griefs with the game in the form of a review is a bit of grand standing. Its almost like in a thread title typing "You know what I hate...." instead of just saying what you hate. The sense is that your calling attention to yourself wanting as many eyes to look upon you as possible.

 

I mean to openly admit you know nothing about the game and attempt any sort of half ass review to me just seems like a waste of time. You can't tell me its easier to write a review for a game than to just say

 

"I played the demo and I'm on the fence about the game. Here are the things I don't understand, and here are the things I don't like. Then of course ask if your reading these things the right way.

[Bigpapa42]

It always amuses me when people say that. The game design and creation ALWAYS comes first, the data is second. Afterall, you can't create the data for the game without first having the game to play it on. The reason the data is so good is because it's the game creator who makes it, and as Adam knows all about his game, he knows how to make data to suit it.

 

Which is in itself why mod makers need to be good players of TEW to make a good mod. If you don't understand the game then it is very tough to make a strong mod for the game, which is where a lot of mod makers fail.

 

Yeah, its the other way around. Comes out to the same thing - the mods are not always perfectly optimized to suit the game as much as the CornellVerse is.

[Derek B]

Yeah, its the other way around. Comes out to the same thing - the mods are not always perfectly optimized to suit the game as much as the CornellVerse is.

 

True, true. But I'm a stickler for cause and effect being recognised the right way round.

 

I have to admit too, that I struggle to get into Real World mods but I'm never sure why. I know they are something different to the Cornellverse, but I'm never sure if I don't click with them because I have my own preconceptions of how good workers should be, how I should treat them or just compare the entire game and stats to the Cornellverse.

 

It's like... I KNOW all about The Undertaker and how I think his stats should look, so when they aren't like that in a mod I get put off. Meanwhile, Skull DeBones just IS how good Adam tells us he is, no room for misconception, so I'm happy.

 

Of course, one thing about mods is that they can take advantage of the game in different ways. The Cverse97 makes a lot more use of regional battles and war than the default Cverse, while also being tough to succeed in due to a lot of the "talented" guys not even debuting yet. It's a developing gameworld, while the Cverse itself is a full world packed with talent and stars. Sadly, I can't compare to any other mods just now because I've not played them much... but I'm sure you get what I mean.

[Self]

I sort of agree with the original poster on a few of his points, specifically the frustration about the feedback you receive from matches. Although it should be said I'm personally more interested in "The crowd didn't really care about Ricky DeColt's comeback" type responses as opposed to "Ricky DeColt looked weak because his overness is only D+" type things. Don't explain the maths, but describe how the crowd were reacting. Painting a more vivid picture, so to speak.

 

However, it's the stylistic choice of Adam, so I'm not going to complain too vehemently.

 

Despite my 'problems' with TEW, it's still the best wrestling booking sim around, and 87% my perfect game. I'm happy to have spent my hard-earned cash on it.

[D16NJD16]

Bad business? Maybe. But at least it's honest. How many companies out there - and not just game developers - would tell a potential customer whatever it takes to get their money, regardless of whether the product is really what they want and need?

 

It does seem like what the original poster is looking for is probably not going to be found in TEW. If it was one or two small issues with the game, it might be different. But that's a lot of concerns. If you are about spending your money very carefully, it is a risk.

 

Honesty is bad for business

[The Masked Orange]

I wouldn't bother buying it, based upon your comments - you seem to be the sort of player who likes every process to be transparent and every action\reaction explained so that you have total control, but that's not what TEW is about. What you call design flaws are intentional obfuscation designed to muddy the water and give a more realistic depiction of the confusion and gut-feelings that you would need in reality. It doesn't sound like you'd get much out of TEW, as it's clearly written from a totally different way of thinking to the one you want.

 

 

 

I'd take issue with that paragraph BTW, as it seems you have taken your opinion and are passing it off as fact. There are several thousand people who have my games, and to my knowledge we've had one person who was not happy with the way the licensing software works. I don't see how that translates to "most users" unless you know of somewhere where several thousand people have voiced a negative opinion?

 

See Adam, sometimes this is what I don't understand about you.

 

You own/run/integral part of (not sure) a business, but you tell people not to buy it.

 

People (honest to god like me, but I am annoying and I do need to be shouted down) post annoying things on your forums, and you respond in a way that isn't exactly pro-cutomer.

 

And I sorta understand why (in my not knowing you, vague idea sort of way), but in all fairness, Why?

[Comradebot]

See Adam, sometimes this is what I don't understand about you.

 

You own/run/integral part of (not sure) a business, but you tell people not to buy it.

 

People (honest to god like me, but I am annoying and I do need to be shouted down) post annoying things on your forums, and you respond in a way that isn't exactly pro-cutomer.

 

And I sorta understand why (in my not knowing you, vague idea sort of way), but in all fairness, Why?

 

My guess?

 

Adam Ryland has a sense of honour. If someone doesn't like something, then you probably shouldn't be trying to trick them into spending money on it. So Ryland doesn't get a few bucks from one guy. He's remaining ethical and maybe other people will appreciate his honesty.