Game Theory and TEW

[infinitywpi]

So, someone got me talking about my love of game theory and design on another thread... which got me thinking... and away we go!

 

Traditionally, there has always been on main type of game, the 'competitive' game, where there is more than one 'side', each one trying to secure victory over the others; usually acomplished either by a higher score, or by acomplishing a certain goal. There was also a minor style of gaming called 'completive' gaming, where the goal was simply to complete a certain task; the best example being the card game Solitare, or one of it's many variants.

 

With computers and arcades, the two styles merges somewhat; while single-player gaming was still the main focus, games would include scores that one could compare against other people's to see who was better at a certain game. Early games often didn't have a set goal; your goal was to last as long as possible, scoring as much as possible. Completing the last level of a game would put you back on the first. This style of gaming is called, quite simply, 'arcade' gaming.

 

A fourth, not as popular style (but no less famous) style is that personified by the tabletop role-playing game, such as Dungeons and Dragons. While it had much in common with both 'completive' (We need to slay the dragon / save the king / find the data disc / save the world) and 'competitive' (I've got more gold than you / I got enough experience to level up) gaming, it generates as much fun from social interactions as it does the actual game mechanics; the point of the game is not to get a high score or to complete a goal, but rather to have a fulfilling social experience; in other words, the goal is to have fun.

 

Recently, a fifth style of gaming, termed 'sandbox gaming' had become popular; The player (almost always a single player) is given the game; sometimes explained the rules; and then told to go do something. Sometimes, there is a structured narative to follow if the player feels like it, mixing the completive game style with the sandbox. Other times, there is simply a score or other measurement involved, mixing arcade play into the sandbox. On the rare occasions where either competitive or table-top style play have been mixed with sandbox play, the results have either fallen flat (The Sims Online) or been moderately, but not wildly, successful (EVE Online or A Tale In The Desert).

 

TEW is, at it's core, a sandbox style game. You are given the rules of the world, how matches work, how stats interact, and how cards are booked... and from there on, there's very little structure. Your selection of who to work for, what cards to put on, is very much in your hand, with little input from the game. Even the most obvious 'guiding force', owner goals, are all stick and no carrot; they don't force you to do certain things, they simply provide penalties if you don't. They don't end the game, just change how it plays.

 

Yet, at the same time, there is a mixture of other play styles at work. While multiplayer play is somewhat clunky, it is possible, with the 'winner' at any given time (perhaps intentional, given the subject matter) is whoever can say "Mine is bigger than yours." There is completive gameplay in the sense of setting your own goals; reaching a certain size, putting on a certain level of card, etc. And finally, there is an element of tabletop gaming, as our own dynasty forum can attest; people getting into the stories of the game and writing them just for the sake of having fun.

 

It is this mixing of all different styles of gaming that make TEW a hard game to explain (and, occasionally, play). This mixing is also argueably it's greatest strength. I feel the way to retain the strength of this mix is to add additional game modes which cater to the other styles of gameplay, without restricting the core sandbox gameplay.

 

The first way to do this would be to introduce 'scenario' play; games such as Civilization have been doing this for a while. Essentially, the sandbox is put into a specific state, and then the player is given a specific goal to achieve in a set amount of time. In TEW, this could take the form of picking some of the more common (and less common) goals players set for themselves and standardizing some sort of 'victory check' for them; an easy scenario could involve taking a national company and breaking them into a new country, with victory declared when you reach a certain popularity level in a certain number of regions; a hard scenario could involve selecting cult promotion and staying at that level after a scandal causes your entire main event roster to become angry at you and leave; success is declared if you can survive two years without shrinking in size. In all cases, the game could continue in sandbox mode once victory is declared (or lost), and a record stored of the state of the company when you succeeded, allowing you to try to do better at a later date. This could introduce a more formal form of completeive gameplay.

 

A second way would be to make multiplayer games easier to implement. Given the turn-based nature of TEW, perhaps the best way to do this would be to borrow a system used by the old game Stars!; in that game (a space 4X game) one player was set as the game's host, and at the start of each turn would email essential files to the players. The players would then take their actions for the turn and send those files (with their actions added) back to the host, who would load them into his game. The game would then determine the results of the actions, and generate a new set of files for the next turn. This would eliminate one of the major problems with multiplayer TEW games (if one player ceases communication, the game freezes until they begin sending files again; under this model, they simply wouldn't do anything and the other players could continue taking their turns). It also would allow for much larger games; instead of the 2-4 player limit now, it would be concievable for every promotion in the game to be player-owned. This would mainly increase the competitive aspect of the game but would also add a social aspect as players negotiate deals with each other.

 

Perhaps the most controversial suggestion is to implement a type of scoring system; there's numerous ways this could be done, from looking at monthly profit, to ratings, to attendance, to show quality. But this would also add a competitive nature to the game, as players could tell the forums "I managed to hit 1,000,000 points with AAA, in only three years! Beat that!" And the race to see who has the larger genita... erm, score would begin, much in the same way it has since Pac-Man and Space Invaders were 'all the rage' as the kids say. Said. Will say. Whatever.

 

There's no questioning that TEW is a success; they wouldn't keep making them if it wasn't. But the game's niche nature (pro-wrestling) combined with it's niche gameplay (near-pure sandbox) makes it a hard sell, and could possibly be preventing it from greater success. I believe that the above examination of game theory and examples of how different theories of gaming could be applied to TEW could result in making a great game more accessable to the masses.

[LFC_chris]

tl;dr

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only joking, all great ideas I feel - I'd love a scenario mode in the game. I think Promotion Wars attempted it at one stage, although in a very simplistic form and sort of stuck on as opposed to being part of the game.

 

A scoring system would also be a nice little addition as would a better multi-player.

[mike b]

Now what would be really cool is if you could combine the best of TEW,managing your own company,competing against other promotions so forth and so on and combine it with the best of fire pro wrestling.

Just think of being able to see your TEW wrestlers in the match you have booked go at it... lol.Now that would be a awesome game.

 

Oh and Infinitywpi you get an A+ on your term paper..... but your a day late!

 

And

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[ZMAN]

I was never in to the straight edge style game play. I feel way too restricted. I always thought an achievement system would go better with it, with unlockable rewards. Like, say for reaching cult status, your reward could be signing a worker to a written deal, or you gain loyalty from a random worker. Something like that... I'd rather just have the feeling of something to "go after" instead of "oh **** I gotta do this or else..."

 

Scoring would be awesome. To make it legit, there could be some kind of code that would void the score if data was edited. Another plus would be the ability to submit an official score to a GDS leader board.

[Self]

I could dig a reward system. In my recent CGC game, I recently got my first A* match, and I was thrilled... but then the game continued on as normal. Part of me wishes I could have received something tangible for that, not just a few changes in some numbers.

[Astil]

Now I do have opinions on the entire post, but with it being Christmas time, I have to keep moving, can't stop to read the whole thing.

 

I will say this, I kind of miss the old, basic, trophy screen.

[Condors]

I love the idea of scenario play. Have like 4 feds with equal popularity and talent(although it could be different types of talent for 4 different types of feds) and have race to national.

 

(PS I am an EVE-Online player)

[Hyde Hill]

PS what does this have to do with game theory??? Don't you mean style or type? Seeing that game theory is an academic excersize and way of looking at and predicting events.

 

And yes scenarios with rewards would be nice say get an A+ match at cult results in 1 written contract.

[FINisher]

I will say this, I kind of miss the old, basic, trophy screen.

 

Seconded. It made me feel that I was accomplishing something, that I was moving forward in the game. It felt great to look at that screen as a way to have second series of owner goals, sort of personal ones. I loved it.

[Phantom Stranger]

PS what does this have to do with game theory??? Don't you mean style or type? Seeing that game theory is an academic excersize and way of looking at and predicting events.

 

And yes scenarios with rewards would be nice say get an A+ match at cult results in 1 written contract.

 

You're thinking of academic game theory. Infinity is discussing the term as it has evolved among... well, fans of games.

[infinitywpi]

Perhaps I should have said 'gaming theory'... but then, it's like two people saying they study music, and one studies Brahms and the other studies Timberlake... they're both right, but they look at completely different things...

[edenborn]

Infinity, I appreciate where you're coming from here. I often feel split between treating TEW as a sandbox where the goal is simply to put on the kinds of shows, matchups and storylines that I'd like to see as a wrestling fan, and treating it as the more concrete, competitive, "get the high score" sort of game you're talking about. Part of the beauty of TEW is that it can appeal to different kinds of players, I suppose.

 

I've tried to approach this conflict in a slightly different way in a left-brained TEW vs. right-brained TEW thread, where it was interesting to see how gamers here tend to play.

 

For future versions of the game, I'm rooting for Adam to continue to find ways to reward the portions of our brains that want a sense of concrete, tangible achievement even as we enjoy TEW as a sandbox.

[Blackman]

I hate scenario mode. I have Civ 4 and I never play it.

 

Tbh, I like TEW mainly as it is now. Improvements for the next version should include optimisation of the engine and the mechanics. I should'nt really change the game itself.

 

As for structure in sandbox games. I recently came across a horrible game called 'cinema tycoon'. It's basically a sandbox-game, but before each level you get a note that describes the area around the cinema. that's fine by me, but then it basically figures out for you what you have to do. therefore the game is merely letting you reproduce certain orders. And I don't like that

[edenborn]

I recently came across a horrible game called 'cinema tycoon'. It's basically a sandbox-game, but before each level you get a note that describes the area around the cinema. that's fine by me, but then it basically figures out for you what you have to do. therefore the game is merely letting you reproduce certain orders. And I don't like that

I wouldn't like that either, and I think that's a fair cautionary tale of where not to take the game. There's probably a happy medium here, a way to add structure in TEW for those who want that without turning into the kind of game that tells you exactly what you need to do to achieve your goals.

[Wade]

Maybe it's just me, but I see the game as having set goals and rewards. Do certain things, and you gain loyalty from workers. For each level you raise your promotion, you can get more popular wrestlers, eventually even signing written contracts. Maybe that's just me, but I see those things as being "rewards" for achieving certain "goals".

[NordVolf]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Wade" data-cite="Wade" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="20843" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Maybe it's just me, but I see the game as having set goals and rewards. Do certain things, and you gain loyalty from workers. For each level you raise your promotion, you can get more popular wrestlers, eventually even signing written contracts. Maybe that's just me, but I see those things as being "rewards" for achieving certain "goals".</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That may very well be, but I think most people who like the way the game is now mean that, while there are 'set goals', there are a <em>wide</em> variety of ways to get there.</p><p> </p><p> Sure, you could look at it like this; book good shows, have good results, rise in overness. Rinse and repeat. Ho hum. But it's the wide variety of bookings you can do, as well as hiring various workers depending on your vision, that makes the game infinately variable, as well as instantly personalizable as a result. Let alone the variation, as well as the random elements like Destiny, that give limitless re-playability.</p><p> </p><p> Yeah. I'm a TEW fan for the way the game is now. I like it like that. <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p> Keep up the good work, Mr. Ryland!</p>

[NickC13573]

maybe bring back the trophy screen, and for every trophy, you get a small temporary boost from sponsors?

[D16NJD16]

Ton of XBL influence in this thread.