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Pistons vs Pacers Debacle


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Ron Artest should have been called for a flagrant foul. Ben Wallace should be suspended for 5 games for his retaliation against Ron Artest after the foul. Ron Artest should be suspended 10 games for going after the fan in the stands. Stephen Jackson should be suspended for 20 games for being a complete goon. EDIT: When I saw the recording originally I thought it was Stephen Jackson that punched the Piston fan on the court but it was actually Jermaine O'Neal. JO should receive a 10 game suspension and Stephen Jackson should receive a 10 game suspension as well. The fan that threw the cup at Artest should be charged with some sort of misdemeanor and banned for the remainder of the season for attending NBA games. The fans that came onto the court and appeared to confront Artest should be treated the same way. The NBA and its venues need to institute some zero tolerance policies regarding fan behavior. It was fan behavior that caused this situation to spiral out of control.
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A - That would be the weakest flagrant foul ever. Edit: 2nd weakest flagrant foul ever. The weakest was the one Artest gave to someone last week, that the NBA took off his record a day later. B - Stephen Jackson hit a man who had just thrown a beer in his teammates face. You'd watch your friend get beat up? Good friend. Edit to respond: The fan NEVER should have been on the court, it's even on the list of rules of the arena. Whatever happens to him, is his own fault. He even approached Artest with his hands up ready to fight. Good for JO. I'll be cheering even louder than usual at the Pacers game tonight against Orlando. I agree with Artest for 10 games, but Wallace should only get 2 or 3. It's your average outburst with a shove. He overreacted, but he never could have predicted what would have happened.
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Guest IrishHand
If I'm Artest (or any of several Pacers), I sue at least a half-dozen fans in that arena and drive them into bankruptcy just to make an example of them. He could lose every suit and still cripple them with legal fees. Frankly, I was disgusted by the conduct of the fans in Detroit. The lack of civility (and it's certainly not just in Detroit) displayed by many fans these days is a sad commentary on the state of our civilization. Thankfully, the whole thing was videotaped and it was pretty clear Artest was provoked at every step. That should prevent him from getting too lit up in court. I saw the fat guy with the patch facial hair who confronted Artest on the court (then got smacked down by O'Neal, I believe) do an interview on CNN. It didn't take that guy long to talk to a lawyer. He basically said he was totally uninvolved and was randomly attacked by a pair of Pacers. Hello, crackpot. You aggressively walked up to an enraged NBA player who had been assaulted by other fans. The exit was behind you. What a clown. Artest deserves to be suspended, and the 10 games sounds about right. Same for Jackson, O'Neal and some others. (I'm pretty sure most everyone involved in that game will get some sort of suspension, since it's basically automatic when you leave the bench in an NBA game.) However, the flagrant violations of both the law and limits of civilized behavior made by a host of Pistons fans deserve the severest reasonable punishment and censure. The mass of fans who were dumping drinks on Pacer players, coaches and stadium security? The fans who threw things at Artest and others? The fans who actively sought to engage in fisticuffs with NBA players (almost certainly because of the money at the end of it)? Sad. Just plain sad. [quote=singularity]The NBA and its venues need to institute some zero tolerance policies regarding fan behavior. It was fan behavior that caused this situation to spiral out of control.[/quote] Absolutely. Forget throwing unruly fans out of the game - if they even do that. (I've seen a LOT of fans do and say a lot of reprehensible things that got them a warning, if that, when I'd have tossed them without a second thought.) They should clearly state that if any fan engages in behavior outside of social norms (basically cheering and booing), they'll be thrown out and banned for 365 days. Engage in any behavior which might be illegal? In addition to the ban, you'll be immediately handed over to the police, as well as any evidence that security, fans and videotapes can provide about the incident. I think fans would be a lot less likely to throw things at players if that would be the last game they'd attend for a year and they could look forward to at least a night in jail for their stupidity.
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The answer is very simple to last night's situation Artest 5 game susp. Wallace 2 games for being a Jack*ss Jackson 5 Games Jermaine O'Neil Should not be suspended even 1 game. as soon as the fan went on the court, he asked for exactly what he got. the fan had absolutely no business on the court. and Detriot should not be allowed a home game the rest of the season. their fans were an embarrassement to all sports fans everywhere. they should be forced on the road for the rest of the season or neutral site games. had the Pistons had better Security in Place or if their fans weren't such screwups and goons, then none of this would have ever happened. First off, I am not a fan of Ron Artest, but he showed alot of calm in trying to get away from Ben Wallace at the begginng of all of the crap. Ben Wallace proved himself to be a punk. that was by no means a flagrant foul,
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I have to say that not allowing Detroit another home game is a bit melodramatic. I have to say that the Artest foul COULD be considered a flagrant foul and I would have taken no offense if it was called that way. But Wallace was wrong in pushing Artest, and making the situation more tense. After the teams were split up and things were calming down, the fan in the stands should have been evicted for the beer throwing. Artest and the other player for the Pacers was wrong for going into the stands, no matter how much they were provoked. That was a stupid move. Now when they were gang tackled and jumped, then it becomes a save yourself kind of thing. When the fans came onto the court, then they were fair game for ANY player to address their concerns about safety. Will O'Neal be fined? Probably. But the folks that came onto the court should be banned permanently for that behavior. O'Neal should have kept his cool and just tied up the fan. The angle I saw only showed one or two, but that is enough of a disadvantage that he was justified in protecting himself. But to punish the Pistons by taking away all their home games? No, they have to make money. They will need to address a lot of issues, the NBA and the Pistons. The Pacers aren't blameless in this either. Remember I am a Pacer fan, and no apologist. Too many things happened that shouldn't, and to lump all the fans of Detroit as goons and screwups, isn't fair to the guys that aren't like that. I am sure Mr. Gorski is a huge Pistons fan, and I would take offense that you would label him with the people that were crossing the line with attacking the Pacers. Not all the Pistons are thugs, nor are all the fans. But there are definite serious issues with security and fan interaction with the players. The NBA and both teams need to take a long look at what happened and make sure that this doesn't happen again in Indianapolis or Detroit, or anywhere there is a rivalry between teams. What if the Heat and Lakers go at it? Boston and Philly? Lakers and Kings? Where does it stop? It needs to stop now.
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when Italian fans threw objects at the referee in a Champions League game in Rome, Roma had to play its next champion's league home game in an empty stadium. And why hasn't Artest worn out his welcome with this last bit of nonsense? the NBA does not need him and he thinks he has a music career to fall back on. Show him the door. Now.
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[B]"He basically said he was totally uninvolved and was randomly attacked by a pair of Pacers. Hello, crackpot. You aggressively walked up to an enraged NBA player who had been assaulted by other fans. The exit was behind you. What a clown."[/B] Irish, as much as I HATE to say it, he was telling the truth. Seeing as how I'm a Pacers fan, I'm sure that will lure you to hear me out. Watch the video again, REALLY closely. The guy who approached Ron Artest had a white Pistons jersey, and a black hat on. The guy O'Neal used a move on that should be featured in Def Jam Fight for New York 2 was wearing a white Pistons jersey, and no hat. Yet, the 2 guys looked identical (brothers?). Easy to notice as the guy with the hat on was right behind him ...... he hit the wrong guy. I don't know if the absolutely uncanny resemblance between the two will be a solid argument for O'Neal. [B]Edit[/B] - Nevermind, watching it again myself, the 2nd guy without the hat came in and tried to tackle Ron Artest after he was punching the other guy.
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Guest IrishHand
I am a lawyer. Just 'cause I'm not practicing doesn't mean I stopped being one. And actually - it does matter. "Assmption of risk". :) If you ran into the middle of an NFL play and got killed by a LB who accidentally did a helmet-to-your-head tackle, he's certainly not going to be guilty of murder or manslaughter. I'm not saying that O'Neal could have killed that tubby clown and gotten away with it, but he's certainly able to defend his teammate on the basketball court from someone who's prohibited both by stadium regulation and law from going onto it (the aforementioned tubby fellow).
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Also, read: ===== [url]http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3179442[/url] [I]"However, Ben Maller and Chris Landry of Fox Sports Radio have learned from Pistons play-by-play man Fred McLeod that the NBA plans to suspend Artest for 30 games. Additionally, Fox Sports Radio reports O'Neal and Jackson will both get 20-game suspensions. Wallace, on the other hand, will miss just five games."[/I] ===== If true, Ron Artest's game back will be against the Pistons, and in Detroit. :eek:
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Guest IrishHand
Artest's is excessive, but in light of past transgressions, defensible. O'Neal and Jackson getting 20 is ridiculous. Vernon Maxwell set the standard several years back when he bum-rushed some racist fan and attacked him. O'Neal and Jackson simply defended their teammate, and O'Neal didn't even leave the court. If I'm a Pacer fan, I think those are a joke. Of course, it's pure conjecture (the length of those suspensions). Really, they can do what they want to Artest - bottom line is that he ran into the crowd to get a guy and has a nasty track record. Nobody else deserves more than a hand-slapping. O'Neal should get nothing in my mind, while Jackson maybe 2-5 games. Wallace should be in the same area: 2 games for shoving Artest. However, I understand the NBA dropping the hammer - I'd just prefer it were dropped on the Pistons organization rather than individual Pacers - or at least equally between the two.
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First off, Ron Artest, IMO, deserves as many games as possible - he started the whole thing. What he did to Wallace was totally bush league - had he gone for the ball and fouled him hard that would be one thing but he made no attempt to do anything other than drive his forearm into the back of Wallace's head. He could have seriously injured Wallace so I understand Wallace being pissed. Ben shouldn't have shoved him and he deserves 5 games for not only doing that but throwing his towel or whatever he later through at Artest. Back to Artest though - there is absolutely NO reason Artest should be in the crowd. Ditto for Stephen Jackson - both of them deserve what they are getting and more. A guy threw a beer at Artest - extremely bad taste by the fan but Artest could have gotten up and walked back to his bench where he belonged and let Palace security arrest the bozo who threw the beer. Instead Artest decides he's going to take the law into his own hands and starts this pier six brawl. Just because someone throws a beer at you does not give you the legal right to punch them out. Jackson had even less of a reason to be in the stands punching fans. I skimmed through pretty quickly but did anyone bring up the fact that Artest punched the WRONG GUY! So not only are they in the stands punching out fans - they're punching people who had nothing to do with provoking Artest in the first place. As for O'Neal - the clown on the court who tried to fight Artest there got what he deserved FROM ARTEST. O'Neal had no provocation into the fight - he just sprinted over and decked the guy. His suspension should probably be less but I think he is the one of the three most likely on the hook for any type of legal issue. If a fan comes onto the playing surface and is threatening a player he deserves to get whatever he gets in terms of a beatdown. But if you want the fans off the field then you need to keep the players out of the stands. Not everyone down there was throwing beer - now you've got players taking it upon themselves to go into a crowd where there are innocent people just there to watch a basketball game and they're in danger of being pummeled by a 6'7 man. The bottom line is that under no circumstances can it be ok for either a player to go into the stands or a fan to come onto the playing surface. If people are throwing items or using racial slurs then the arena security and police need to deal with them. I think had Artest stayed on the floor that security would have handled the problem. Once Artest went into the crowd all bets were off because you know there are going to be people who are stupid enough/drunk enough to fight with someone from the opposing team. The NBA needs to send a message to its players that you do not go into the crowd and mess with the fans and the NBA needs to tell its teams that they need to provide more security down by the court to make sure fans are not attempting to come onto the floor. The fans involved in the altercation should be charged with appropriate charges from the police - its their job to hand out justice, not Ron Artest's.
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Guest IrishHand
I think the flaw in your reasoning lies in this: [quote=Gary Gorski]Artest could have gotten up and walked back to his bench where he belonged and [i]let Palace security arrest the bozo who threw the beer[/i].[/quote] [quote=Gary Gorski]I think had Artest stayed on the floor that security would have handled the problem.[/quote] This simply doesn't happen to the extent it should. If players (and other fans) seriously thought that the matter would be handled in the appropriate manner by security and/or law enforcement, then I suspect the lack of civility on both sides (fans/players) wouldn't be the problem it is today. However, I'm sure that NBA players have seen even more instances than I have of fans engaging in inappropriate behavior and getting nothing more than a verbal warning from an usher or security. I've seen the replays of the IND/DET brawl dozens of times, and it's pretty clear that DET security did little or nothing to protect Pacer players (the only real target in that scenario). Even at the end when the Pacer players were leaving the court, they were being sheltered and protected by their own coaches and bodyguards. That's inexcusable. Surround them with Detroit's finest and I don't think you have every fan within a dozen feet throwing anything they can get their hands on at Pacer players, coaches and personnel. The stuff on the court is a league issue and, to my mind, relatively unrelated to the player/fan conflicts which arose. As I said before, neither Artest nor Wallace did anything notable in the lead-up to the "Artest into the crowd" scenario. When there's a scuffle on the court, every security guard and policeman in the stadium needs to be standing up ensuring that fans stay out of it. The fact that a brawl of that magnitude erupted speaks volumes about the inadequacy of their stadium security. Absolutely Artest deserves the hammer. But so do the Pistons. Ultimately, their organization is responsible for the behavior of their fans and - overall - their behavior was much worse in my opinion than the collective behavior of the Pacers. Had it been one fan who threw his beer and Artest charged him and Jackson charged him - that's fine. Hammer Artest, slap Jackson, whatever. But when you've got dozens upon dozens of fans throwing things, going onto the court to confront players, assaulting every member of the Pacer organization as they try to retreat to their locker room. I'm sorry. That's inexcusable and warrants extreme punitive measures.
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Gary, that foul to Wallace was weak. It wasn't even deserving of a flagrant foul. Also, Artest had no reason to be in the stands, but is Stephen Jackson to stand there and watch his buddy get jumped? You're a bad friend if you were to do so. I say friends, because Artest, Fred Jones, Jermaine O'Neal, and Stephen Jackson go to a club downtown together all the time. Although yes, Stephen could have played a peacemaker role, not an ass kicker one. Yet, look where that got Fred Jones. His head pounded from behind by a 300 pound man. Next, where do you guys from FOFC keep getting that he hit the wrong guy? I swear I've watched every TV show there is on it, and I haven't heard it anywhere but on the FOF forums. Lastly, your willingness to hand out a super suspension is overboard. Especially when Vernon Maxwell got 7 games for going in the seats, and punching a fan. The players association would own you for such a penalty.
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from espn.com "Ron Artest has been suspended for the season, while teammates Stephen Jackson received a 30-game suspension, and Jermaine O'Neal, a 25-game" "The Detroit Pistons will be without Ben Wallace for six games. Indiana's Anthony Johnson also received a five-game suspension." "Eldon Campbell, Chauncey Billups and Derrick Coleman, as the Pacers' Reggie Miller each received 1-game suspensions and $35,000 fines for leaving the bench following the initial altercation between Wallace and Artest."
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[QUOTE=jbmagic]"Ron Artest has been suspended for the season, while teammates Stephen Jackson received a 30-game suspension, and Jermaine O'Neal, a 25-game" "The Detroit Pistons will be without Ben Wallace for six games. Indiana's Anthony Johnson also received a five-game suspension." "Eldon Campbell, Chauncey Billups and Derrick Coleman, as the Pacers' Reggie Miller each received 1-game suspensions and $35,000 fines for leaving the bench following the initial altercation between Wallace and Artest."[/QUOTE] Honestly - those suspensions are a complete disgrace to the NBA. The NBA basically told every fan in the league that not only can you be belligerent and criminal and get away with it, but you'll help your team in the process! Piss off a guy bad enough that he looks at your sideways? He'll be suspended into oblivion. How the Pistons organization walks away from that scot free is totally beyond my limited powers of comprehension. The NBA simply ended the Pacers season. It's over. Enjoy the lottery. The Pacers can't contend without Artest. Take away O'Neal and Jackson and their best players are Tinsley, Croshere and Jeff Foster. Charlotte's got more talent than that.
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[QUOTE=IrishHand]Honestly - those suspensions are a complete disgrace to the NBA. The NBA basically told every fan in the league that not only can you be belligerent and criminal and get away with it, but you'll help your team in the process! Piss off a guy bad enough that he looks at your sideways? He'll be suspended into oblivion. How the Pistons organization walks away from that scot free is totally beyond my limited powers of comprehension. The NBA simply ended the Pacers season. It's over. Enjoy the lottery. The Pacers can't contend without Artest. Take away O'Neal and Jackson and their best players are Tinsley, Croshere and Jeff Foster. Charlotte's got more talent than that.[/QUOTE] That's exactly what I thought the second I heard. Stern just told NBA fans, act stupid ... you might rid yourself of a contender. What's next? They throw things at Shaq, to make sure they get to the finals now? I don't see how the NBAPA doesn't get this down to a more reasonable suspension, citing Vernon Maxwell (8 or 10 games, no different) and his suspension. The only difference between what Maxwell, and Artest did is that the fans started the physicality between Artest, and the fans. Also that when Maxwell did it, the fans didn't jump him. So, the fans different reaction is what warrants him getting 60 more games? I find that ridiculously overboard. What a great time for Bender to be healthy and get some playing time. Yet, that's not going to happen.
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[QUOTE=IrishHand]Honestly - those suspensions are a complete disgrace to the NBA. The NBA basically told every fan in the league that not only can you be belligerent and criminal and get away with it, but you'll help your team in the process! Piss off a guy bad enough that he looks at your sideways? He'll be suspended into oblivion. How the Pistons organization walks away from that scot free is totally beyond my limited powers of comprehension. The NBA simply ended the Pacers season. It's over. Enjoy the lottery. The Pacers can't contend without Artest. Take away O'Neal and Jackson and their best players are Tinsley, Croshere and Jeff Foster. Charlotte's got more talent than that.[/QUOTE] I couldn´t agree more. That's exactly what i said yesterday to one of my friends, and i'm shocked about the duration of the suspension. Maxwell got 10 games and Jermaine got 25? Something's wrong. But i still believe that the Pacers will qualify for the Playoffs, and just imagine Pacers beat the Pistons in Playoffs without Artest. It will make me happy, and I'm not a Pacers fan...but is just a dream...
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I disagree that this ruling tells fans they can do what they want, what it says is, that if players go into the stands they are going to lose their jobs. The player has no right to go into the stands and physically attack an individual. Does this give fans carte blanche to do what they want, no it doesn't but that is something that needs to be handled by the authorities, NOT THE PLAYERS! Now I do also think that Artest hit the wrong guy. Artest has NO IDEA who threw the beer at him, he was lieing down on the scorers table with players around him, there is no possible way that he saw who threw it. The guy he hit still had his beer in his hand and was laughing and pointing at Artest and was the first guy he reached. I do not think that he was the guy that threw the beer. There is no way that Stephen Jackson should have gone into the stands, I don't care if he is his friend or not. Just because they are friends in no way justifies Jackson going into the stands and attacking individiuals that are there. Fred Jones should not have been in the stands either. Personally I think that if a player goes in the stands whatever he gets in a beat down is justified, just as I don't have a problem with players defending themselves on the court/field. Fans don't belong on the court/field and players don't belong in the stands. I think that Artest may find himself with some legal trouble and Jackson should fully expect it, and probably O'Neal as well. I don't have a problem with the suspensions to Artest and Jackson, if O'Neal did not go in the stands then I think his should have been along the lines of Maxwell. Also I think there was a comment that O'Neal hit someone else afterward that was not seen on camera but was witnessed by a police officer, so that may also be part of his suspension. The suspensions to Jackson and O'Neal will be staggered I am sure so that the team isn't totally crippled. These players make way too much money to be pulling stunts like that. I also think it is disgraceful the fans throwing beers and things at the players leaving the court. Personally I am not a fan of either team, I like O'Neal's game and will be sorry to see him not in the games for the 25 that he is suspended for, but that is the way things go. Also with regards to the Maxwell situation, that is not a precedent setter for this as that was one individual that went in the stands if I remember correctly, he did not start a full onslaught of the fans with his team.
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[QUOTE=IrishHand]Honestly - those suspensions are a complete disgrace to the NBA. The NBA basically told every fan in the league that not only can you be belligerent and criminal and get away with it, but you'll help your team in the process! Piss off a guy bad enough that he looks at your sideways? He'll be suspended into oblivion. How the Pistons organization walks away from that scot free is totally beyond my limited powers of comprehension. The NBA simply ended the Pacers season. It's over. Enjoy the lottery. The Pacers can't contend without Artest. Take away O'Neal and Jackson and their best players are Tinsley, Croshere and Jeff Foster. Charlotte's got more talent than that.[/QUOTE] Irish what did the Pistons really do though that was so bad. Wallace shoved Artest and tried to fight him, he got 6 games, that is about right, a couple of guys left the bench and they got 1 game and a fine. What else did they do to warrant suspensions, really? You can't just suspend players on their team because their fans had a brawl with the Pacers. I just don't see where the Pistons should get more suspensions, in the times that I have seen the video, I don't recall any of their players attacking fans.
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