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Pistons vs Pacers Debacle


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[QUOTE=Erich Ingram]Irish what did the Pistons really do though that was so bad. Wallace shoved Artest and tried to fight him, he got 6 games, that is about right, a couple of guys left the bench and they got 1 game and a fine. What else did they do to warrant suspensions, really? You can't just suspend players on their team because their fans had a brawl with the Pacers. I just don't see where the Pistons should get more suspensions, in the times that I have seen the video, I don't recall any of their players attacking fans.[/QUOTE] What the Pistons did that was soo bad, was to not control the situation! if David Stern can basically give the death penalty to the Pacers season for this, then he should do it to the Pistons as well for not controlling the situation. I repeat my opinion from earlier. strip the pistons of Home games for at least a month or the entire season
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[QUOTE=Pacersfan46]Gary, that foul to Wallace was weak. It wasn't even deserving of a flagrant foul. Also, Artest had no reason to be in the stands, but is Stephen Jackson to stand there and watch his buddy get jumped? You're a bad friend if you were to do so. I say friends, because Artest, Fred Jones, Jermaine O'Neal, and Stephen Jackson go to a club downtown together all the time. Although yes, Stephen could have played a peacemaker role, not an ass kicker one. Yet, look where that got Fred Jones. His head pounded from behind by a 300 pound man. Next, where do you guys from FOFC keep getting that he hit the wrong guy? I swear I've watched every TV show there is on it, and I haven't heard it anywhere but on the FOF forums. Lastly, your willingness to hand out a super suspension is overboard. Especially when Vernon Maxwell got 7 games for going in the seats, and punching a fan. The players association would own you for such a penalty.[/QUOTE] The foul was weak? OK, you let a 6'7 200 some pound athlete give you a forearm to the back of the head when you least expect it and see how you feel about it. Artest is a punk and has a long history of being that way and what he did to Wallace was extremely punk-like. Artest had no intention of blocking the shot nor did he make an attempt to. His only intent was to cheap shot Wallace and possibly injure him. I find it extremely odd that Artest was in no mood to fight Big Ben after Ben pushed him yet when a fan throws a beer at him THEN he's ready for all hell to break loose. THAT was weak. Frankly, I appluad the suspensions. The league didn't cripple the Pacers - the Pacers did it themselves. I'll say it again. There is NO REASON for players to be in the crowd PERIOD. I don't care what the people in the crowd do or say the local authorities need to handle them and if they don't then the league needs to crack down on the home organization - it is not the job of players to dish out justice. David Stern did the right thing - he sent a crystal clear message telling the players that under no circumstances do you go into the crowd and start assaulting people. I find it ridiculous that people can think Artest even had any idea who he was going after - he wasn't looking to see who would throw a beer at him so how did he determine who to punch? The first guy he saw that didn't have a beer in his hand? The safety of the fans needs to be considered too and for at least a reasonably safe environment you have to keep the players on the playing field and the fans in the crowd and neither one can cross that boundary. Alot of people said if a fan comes onto the court he deserves to get beat up - well then the same goes for a player if he goes into the stands. What happens if Artest tramples some little kid on his way to punch out someone? Sadly this isnt the first pro sporting event where the fans got rowdy and threw stuff at players and even more sadly it will not be the last. However I believe that things would have never escalated to the level they did if Artest and Jackson would have remained on the floor where they belong. By going into the stands they endangered innocent people who were not looking for a fight and more than likely have no desire to fight a pro athlete and get their face rearranged and that is something that absolutely cannot happen and I for one am glad the NBA sent the message it did.
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It looks like the players association will step in and try to get the punishments lightened. They get 3 emergencies reviews a season, and they are filing Monday if they haven't already for the Pacers 3 players. I would say that the punishments are fine. Remember I live here in Indiana, and I feel like what happened should get the punishments the NBA dealt (no wait it was Stern, no one else.. maybe there should be a committee instead of one person. Hard to say there.) to the four players. Wallace's suspension was correct, and I look for the Player's Assoc to plead some leniency on the players suspension. What I do not believe is fair that the three punishments have to run concurrently. BUT! I do believe that the Indiana team should be able to (and will if I read the rules right) hire some players for 25 games to fill out the missing Artest and others while on suspension. The Detroit owner and their fans will probably face some kind of fines and punishment for the problem of insufficient staffing of security. Those things need addressed as well. The NBA ruling on the game was severe, and I look for the Player's Association to get the sentences reduced. But, I would say that the NBA HAD to make a statement now and not later. I also feel like it is closing the barn door after the livestock has escaped kind of response, and the pro league has been allowing this type of behavior for years, Spreewell should never have played in the league again after what he did. I also think if the PA can get his (Spreewell) judgement reduced, then you will see something for Artest and the other Pacers sometime in the next 10 days. This story isn't over yet. This one's got a lot of legs left in it. :) This was just the beginning folks. If the NBA doesn't reduce the punishment, look for the collective bargaining agreement to be a HUGE issue in the offseason... this is just what the PA wants to reduce Stern's heavy hand in the player's pocketbook. This isn't over by a long shot. I believe Artest will always be marked as an immature lout that should be taking a year off, it might make him grow up.. I doubt it, but I know this much, he won't be a Pacer for a long period of time. I don't see the Simons and Bird allowing this kind of embarrassment to continue and besides, SOMEONE would take Ron just because he can play some D, and his emotional baggage a NY or LA could deal with, if Indiana gets the right offer, Artest would be gone before you know it.
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[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]The foul was weak? OK, you let a 6'7 200 some pound athlete give you a forearm to the back of the head when you least expect it and see how you feel about it. Artest is a punk and has a long history of being that way and what he did to Wallace was extremely punk-like. Artest had no intention of blocking the shot nor did he make an attempt to. His only intent was to cheap shot Wallace and possibly injure him.[/QUOTE] Well, let me be 6'9, and 250 pounds with the nickname "The Body", and see if it really effects me. Ben Wallace's brother just died, he is on national TV getting his ass handed to him, and he acted like a baby. Probably because he's been having a hard time, I'm sure. I've been there. Just as a note, I'm 6'3 and 175 pounds, I'm skinny as hell. Yet, I've been clobbered by 7 footers going to the hole during my time in high school basketball. Namely Jon Stewart whom you only don't know because of his untimely death. He was meant to go to U of Kentucky, and be a star, but he had a heart attack on the court during a game in high school. :( Blah .. bad memories. Anyway, point being I've had my ass knocked by people who are much bigger than I am (by about 9 inches, and 100 lbs), and Ben Wallace is bigger than Ron Artest. Hell, I'm not even getting paid, and I didn't respond like that. The only people I've heard say the foul was too hard are people who seemed to have hated Artest for a while. Your comments clearly place you in that category. I also like how you interjected your psychic ability to know what Artest was thinking in there. How you KNOW he was only trying to hurt Ben Wallace. That alone places you on the side of bias on this. He plays hard from tipoff, to the final buzzer, and always has. Like everyone says you SHOULD. Then he gets ragged on for it. People need to make up their minds. Ask the Knicks who gave up 8 points in less than 10 seconds to Reggie Miller what can happen if you don't. Besides what I've said, it's not even worth discussing the rest anymore. I'm not going to repeat myself. I'm not going to change what you think, and vice versa.
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I never said Artest doesn't play hard - hell I have him on my fantasy basketball team just for that reason because when he is playing the game he's one of the best players in the league - however, its the other times that gives him his well deserved rap of being basically an idiot. What kind of player asks for a month off five games into a season and to promote a rap album no less. Like you mentioned, Ben Wallace's brother died recently and he missed what, 2 games and Artest wants to take a month off to promote a rap album.... Artest needs some professional help. If it was basically anyone but Artest that was involved the situation would have been much different. I suppose his numerous flagrant fouls, ejections and suspensions in the past were all just some big conspiracy against him though, right? You also seem to be overlooking the fact that he went up and attacked someone who had nothing to do with the altercation. The guy who threw the beer at him shoved his hands in his pocket and tried to look like he didn't do anything once he saw Artest get up and head his way - then that idiot of a fan tried to sucker punch Artest when he tackled the other fan who, I repeat, had nothing to do with throwing the beer at him. What kind of person gets up and just starts swinging at whomever he can find? Wallace's body may be better equipped to handle a forearm to the back of the head than yours or mine but that doesn't make it ok. And like I said, had Artest even pretended he was going for the ball it would be different but up 15 with under a minute to go and no intent of blocking the shot = intentional bush league cheap shot. And even then, had Artest not had the well documented track record of flagrant fouls that he does maybe one could argue it was just a guy playing hard. Ben Wallace isn't the type of guy to do what he did so when it comes down to it I think alot more people are going to give Wallace the benefit of the doubt over Artest. Artest plays hard, that's for sure, the problem is he loses control of his emotions and playing hard turns into playing dirty. Given his history and the fact that he's in the crowd attacking whomever he can get his hands on I say the season long suspension is very fair and he'll be very lucky not to end up in court over this - maybe not for criminal charges but I definitely see some lawsuits coming. He better hope that rap album sells well since he's not getting paid this season and may have opened the door for some heavy legal action. Maybe though it will get him to clean up his act - if he ever focused on being just a basketball player he'd be an all-star every season - otherwise he's destined to replace Dennis Rodman in league infamy if he hasn't already done so.
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[QUOTE=Erich Ingram]Irish what did the Pistons really do though that was so bad. Wallace shoved Artest and tried to fight him, he got 6 games, that is about right, a couple of guys left the bench and they got 1 game and a fine. What else did they do to warrant suspensions, really? You can't just suspend players on their team because their fans had a brawl with the Pacers. I just don't see where the Pistons should get more suspensions, in the times that I have seen the video, I don't recall any of their players attacking fans.[/QUOTE] I said the Pistons organization, not their players. I think Wallace should have gotten 2 games and that's it. However, I think their lack of control over the crowd and, to a lesser extent, the players is unpardonable. Were it me, I'd have fined them about $10 million dollars and forced them to play home games in front of an empty stadium for a month. Of course, the NBA commissioner is a slave to the owners, which is why that didn't happen. They have no problem screwing over a few overpaid, millionarie babies - but justly punishing a billionaire owner? No thanks. Why wasn't there more security? Because that costs money. You cut corners and something like that happens, you deserve to pay the price. Next time you watch a televised Laker home game, see how many security guards you see every time they show the crowd. They're all over. That's the only arena I've been in where I felt confident that inappropriate fan behavior would be dealt with promptly and effectively - and I've been in a LOT of NBA arenas. Let me ask you this - what happens if no Pacer goes into the crowd? Wallace goes berserk, shoves Artest. Artest acts the fool and lies down on the scorer's table. Some clown throws his beer on Artest and Artest jumps up and starts yelling at the idiot in the crowd. Coaches, players continue to scuffle in front of the scorer's table. The boos and jeers rise. The final 46 seconds are played out, and Artest is predictably showered with beer, popcorn, and everything else that was thrown his way a few days ago. The net result? Wallace gets a 2-game suspension and Artest is vilified for yelling at a fan. Just like every other time, deplorable fan behavior is condoned and ignored by all relevant parties. [quote]I disagree that this ruling tells fans they can do what they want, what it says is, that if players go into the stands they are going to lose their jobs. The player has no right to go into the stands and physically attack an individual. Does this give fans carte blanche to do what they want, no it doesn't but that is something that needs to be handled by the authorities, NOT THE PLAYERS![/quote] You can disagree all you like - that's the reality. There were two clearly guilty parties - the fans and the Pacers. The latter got the equivalent of a death sentance, the former weren't even charged with their transgressions. Nobody ever said the players should handle the fans. The authorities should have, absolutely. But they didn't then, and they aren't now. Not only weren't the fans (through their proxy, the Detroit Pistons organization) punished, but they'll be rewarded most likely via the legal system. That's just embarassing.
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[QUOTE=IrishHand]You can disagree all you like - that's the reality. There were two clearly guilty parties - the fans and the Pacers. The latter got the equivalent of a death sentance, the former weren't even charged with their transgressions. [/QUOTE] Irish, in fairness none of the players have been charged with anything yet either. While I feel the Oakland County Sheriff's Dept should charge each fan that was involved in some way I think you also need to charge Artest, O'Neal and Jackson as well. The Pistons should "suspend" the fans guilty of participating in this - ban them from the arena for a year but how likely do you think it is that the police will charge any of the Pacers players with anything? And I don't expect anyone guilty of participating in the brawl to win any type of lawsuit however I do think that innocent bystanders that were beaten up will and deservingly so. Artest attacked the wrong guy - he's been punished professionally for it - now he needs to be punished criminally and civilly for it as well.
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That's my point - the players have already been punished, and to a far higher degree than they would/will be criminally. A few minor misdemeanor convictions will amount to a few thousand dollars and come community service. Those gargantuan suspensions are multi-million-dollar fines with a career-long impact on endorsement opportunities. But I say again: I have no problem with the hammer being dropped on those Pacers. I can understand the arguments in favor of that. It's the Pistons organiztion walking away scot free that I object to in the highest possible terms. They are just as responsible as Artest and the other Pacers for what transpired in their home arena.
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how many times have this happened where fans overstep their boundaries and pissed off an athlete to the point of aggression? how many times were the fault placed on the athlete? i dislike artest for his stupidity and arrogance at times, but when will these professional leagues take actions against drunken and stupid fans. that arena turned into a riot zone so it wasnt a few fans, you talk about making it safe for kids to watch the game, but you punish the players on the court, not the drunken idiots who sit in the stand
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Who said the idiots in the stands aren't being punished? As a matter of fact the sherrif's office has identified the person who threw the beer at Artest and Im sure he will be facing misdemeanor assault charges as will anyone else they can identify. They've also stated the person who threw the chair could face felonious assault charges if he is identified. You have to remember one thing - the Pacers who were punching out people had their names on the back of their shirts so they're just a tad bit easier to identify. Also don't forget that none of them have been charged criminally as of yet - hopefully that will happen in the next few days along with anyone else who was throwing things or fighting that can be identified from the videotapes.
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So basically you think the NBA should hammer the players, the police should hammer the players, AND the fans should hammer the players. On the flip side, a few fans should get charged with misdemeanors, which they'll universally plea-bargain to a couple hundred dollars and/or a few hours of community service? Hey - if you think that's fair, that's fine. Me, I don't think the blame falls down 99% player, 1% fan in that altercation.
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I think the NBA should do exactly what they did to its players and that all players and fans involved should be charged with misdemeanor assault (which is what the sherriff said they could be charged with) and the guy who threw a chair should be charged with felonious assault. I also think those fans should not be able to attend anymore events at The Palace which is also taking place. The blame in the altercation lies mostly on Ron Artest - first for laying on the scorer's table like an idiot and then for running into the crowd and assaulting the first guy he could when he had no idea who threw the cup. The fan who was attacked has reported that as Artest pinned him to the ground he was asking him if he threw the cup - very nice Ron, way to attack first and ask questions later. If Artest sits up, tells security to get the jackass out of there that threw a cup at him and lets them escort that guy out nobody gets in a fight, nobody gets suspended. Artest goes nuts and Stephen Jackson runs into the crowd looking to fight people and then you have the brawl that took place. Yes, the fan who threw the cup was out of line and should have been arrested (and he will be) but Artest took the law into his own hands and he deserves to pay the price for it. The only difference is Artest was working for his organization when he flew off the handle so he deserves punishment from both the league and the police. It's bad enough he assaulted a fan - its worse he assaulted a guy who didn't do anything but stand there while the idiot who threw the cup stood nearby with his hands in his pockets pretending he didn't do it so that Artest wouldn't rearrange his face.
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I don't think that the players should take the crap that was going on before and during the incident. If this continues there is going to be a lot worse going on toward the athletes. On the other hand all the fans involved shold be charged immediately for assault (or something like it)).
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[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]I think the NBA should do exactly what they did to its players and that all players and fans involved should be charged with misdemeanor assault (which is what the sherriff said they could be charged with) and the guy who threw a chair should be charged with felonious assault. I also think those fans should not be able to attend anymore events at The Palace which is also taking place. The blame in the altercation lies mostly on Ron Artest - first for laying on the scorer's table like an idiot and then for running into the crowd and assaulting the first guy he could when he had no idea who threw the cup. The fan who was attacked has reported that as Artest pinned him to the ground he was asking him if he threw the cup - very nice Ron, way to attack first and ask questions later. If Artest sits up, tells security to get the jackass out of there that threw a cup at him and lets them escort that guy out nobody gets in a fight, nobody gets suspended. Artest goes nuts and Stephen Jackson runs into the crowd looking to fight people and then you have the brawl that took place. Yes, the fan who threw the cup was out of line and should have been arrested (and he will be) but Artest took the law into his own hands and he deserves to pay the price for it. The only difference is Artest was working for his organization when he flew off the handle so he deserves punishment from both the league and the police. It's bad enough he assaulted a fan - its worse he assaulted a guy who didn't do anything but stand there while the idiot who threw the cup stood nearby with his hands in his pockets pretending he didn't do it so that Artest wouldn't rearrange his face.[/QUOTE] How does Artest suspended for the season and Jackson 30 and O'neal 25 equal the fans being charged with misdeameanors, which will probably be plea bargained out in the end. The fans are THE cause of the riot. Had security did it's job then Artest and the others would have never gone into the crowd. I don't care how much money they make and all the other crap people use as excuses, they have every right to protect themselves if the Arena Security won't. I can't belive people go on and on about how this goons being charged with misdeameanors is an equal punishment. Detroit should not be allowed to play at home for at least as long as Jackson and O'neal are suspended. and for Artest to be done for the year, just proves David stern is a racist punk (and before you say anything I am white ) but look at Stern's history. He's always punished blacks worse than whites. 2 prime examples are Artest and Dennis Rodman. in the latter's case, no matter what the circumstances where, Dennis was always the one suspended and fined.
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Maybe David Stern just hates head cases, like Artest and Rodman. To say Stern is a racist is ridiculous. Maybe he doesn't punish white athletes because they rarely act out of line. Back on the topic, I find it pretty convienient that Artest JUST asked for time off for his album. O'Neal definitely doesn't deserve 25 games, and the fans who provoked this should get arrested and banned. John Green ends up being IDed as the guy who not only hit him with the cup, but then decieved him into thinking it was the fan down the row, then getting in a couple cheap punches. Fans will be idiots, but whoever crosses the invisible line between the court and the stands is to blame.
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Something new I heard on the radio today. Slick Leonard (who has been in the NBA/ABA longer than most of us have been alive) had said there had been requests for those particular fans who started everything to be removed for a long time. He said there was a whole lot going on that security never gave a damn about, that shouldn't have. He said he thinks they showed up drunk, and were acting out right behind him while he was doing his radio play by play the whole game. He said they should have been removed in the 3rd quarter. When the Pacers requested that something be done about it.
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[QUOTE=saintbernard]How does Artest suspended for the season and Jackson 30 and O'neal 25 equal the fans being charged with misdeameanors, which will probably be plea bargained out in the end. The fans are THE cause of the riot. Had security did it's job then Artest and the others would have never gone into the crowd. I don't care how much money they make and all the other crap people use as excuses, they have every right to protect themselves if the Arena Security won't. I can't belive people go on and on about how this goons being charged with misdeameanors is an equal punishment. Detroit should not be allowed to play at home for at least as long as Jackson and O'neal are suspended. and for Artest to be done for the year, just proves David stern is a racist punk (and before you say anything I am white ) but look at Stern's history. He's always punished blacks worse than whites. 2 prime examples are Artest and Dennis Rodman. in the latter's case, no matter what the circumstances where, Dennis was always the one suspended and fined.[/QUOTE] Yes, David Stern obviously must be a racist - I mean look at his tenure as commissioner. The league was constantly pimping the Chuck Nevitts and Jeff Hornaceks of the NBA but trying to push those guys like Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Isaiah Thomas, Charles Barkley...etc to the corner, right? Seems to me that Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal are black too yet they didn't get suspended for the year. Maybe the fact that Artest and Rodman are the two guys most likely to be suspended ever is because they're the two biggest head cases ever to play in the NBA. Jackson actually got off easy - he didn't go into the crowd to try and pull people away from Artest or get Artest out of there - he went into the crowd looking to fight someone. By the way, you say had security done its job....kind of tough for security to do their job when the instant Artest gets hit by a cup he sprints into the stands and attacks a fan. Maybe had Artest let security do their job rather than bum rushing an innocent fan things would have been different, huh? Also, what do you think about the fact that Ben Wallace shoved Artest right in his neck/face area and Artest wanted no piece of Wallace yet getting hit by a cup draws his ire so high that he charges into the stands and attacks the smallest guy he sees? As for the punishments being equal - the Pistons are suspending those fans from ever coming back to the arena so there's punishment on both sides its just that Artest is going to lose 5 million because he's an idiot and the fans will lose whatever a season ticket package cost them because they were idiots. Maybe the next player who gets mad at the fans will decide its better to make security handle the idiot fan rather than risk a few million dollars to punch a fan out. As inexcusable as the fans behavior was it was equally inexcusable from the players involved and I don't feel bad for anyone involved in the altercation as they are all getting what they deserve.
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[QUOTE=Pacersfan46]Something new I heard on the radio today. Slick Leonard (who has been in the NBA/ABA longer than most of us have been alive) had said there had been requests for those particular fans who started everything to be removed for a long time. He said there was a whole lot going on that security never gave a damn about, that shouldn't have. He said he thinks they showed up drunk, and were acting out right behind him while he was doing his radio play by play the whole game. He said they should have been removed in the 3rd quarter. When the Pacers requested that something be done about it.[/QUOTE] Yeah I heard this on ESPN radio this morning. This just proves that the Pistons and their lack of security are the main cause for this incident. but yet the Pacers end up being the one's most punished. The Pistons need to be punished as badly as the Pacers were. because it seems, this situation was brewing for a good chunk of the 2nd half if not longer. and the Pistons and Arena security choose to do do absolutly nothing about it. If this turns out to be the truth. then the Pacer players in my opinion were justified to take things into their own hands because they waited and waited for the Pistons to do something and nothing was ever done to remedy this. David Stern has made a complete joke out of this situation. I for one have lost all respect for him and for the Nba. and they will never get another penny of my hard earned money.
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[QUOTE=saintbernard]then the Pacer players in my opinion were justified to take things into their own hands [/QUOTE] So you're saying that Ron Artest is justified in charging into the crowd having no idea who threw the cup and attacking a guy who was doing nothing but standing there?
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Yes i am saying that if it turns out that they had been complaining about the same set of fans for most of if not the entire game. Security should have taken care of the situation before it ever escalated into that brawl. but they wouldn't do if anything, if this report ends up being true. if security doesn't defend you, would you not defend yourself? Imagine someone is on your property and throwing things at you and yelling at you. you call the cops and they do nothing. would you defend yourself? well 90% of the world would. so again, if the reports are determined to be true that the fans in that section had been out of control for the majoirty of the game. and should have been tossed much earlier and security does nothing about it. then I applaud Artest, Jackson, and O'neal for defending themselves
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Wow. So if fans in that section were saying things and a fan in that general area threw something at Artest that gives him carte blanche to beat up whoever he sees fit - you don't see any problem with him attacking someone who did nothing at all? I hope you never go to a game when the Heat are in town and your section is badmouthing Shaq - according to you that gives him the right to come up and crush your skull because people sitting by you called him names or threw something at him. According to your logic every player now would have the right to go into the stands when he sees fit and assault fans who are saying bad stuff about him. By the way, who exactly was O'Neal defending himself from when he sprinted across the court to lay out the guy who was already restrained? I also didn't realize anyone had thrown something at Stephen Jackson and that he felt the need to "defend" himself. I also find it highly odd that Artest feels a cup of liquid is such a great threat to him and that he needs to defend himself against that yet a 6'9 240 pound man shoves him in his face and that's not a threat he needs to defend himself against.
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