Pistons vs Pacers Debacle

[saintbernard]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]Wow. So if fans in that section were saying things and a fan in that general area threw something at Artest that gives him carte blanche to beat up whoever he sees fit - you don't see any problem with him attacking someone who did nothing at all? I hope you never go to a game when the Heat are in town and your section is badmouthing Shaq - according to you that gives him the right to come up and crush your skull because people sitting by you called him names or threw something at him. According to your logic every player now would have the right to go into the stands when he sees fit and assault fans who are saying bad stuff about him. By the way, who exactly was O'Neal defending himself from when he sprinted across the court to lay out the guy who was already restrained? I also didn't realize anyone had thrown something at Stephen Jackson and that he felt the need to "defend" himself. I also find it highly odd that Artest feels a cup of liquid is such a great threat to him and that he needs to defend himself against that yet a 6'9 240 pound man shoves him in his face and that's not a threat he needs to defend himself against.[/QUOTE] Where are you getting this from? i never said that players should be going into the crowd on a nightly basis. I said the Pistons NEEDED to step in and do something long before the brawl ever happened. So you are saying if you or your family was being attacked you would not defend yourself ? i personally think that is bullsh*t. if you felt endangered you would defend yourself. and why just because these are pro basketball players should they not have that right as well? Their announcer has gone on record and said the fans were out of control and needed to be thrown out in the 3rd. had that happened then the fan would have never had the chance to throw anything at Artest. or had Ben wallace not been a big baby about the foul. in the end this WAS and ALWAYS will be only the fault of the Detroit Pistons and Arena Security. had they done their jobs, then the Pacers would not have to have defended themselves. they gave the Pistons and security 99% of the game to solve this. and they never did. Just because a fan pays for a ticket to the game in no way gives them the right to act like that. and if they did that to someone outside of a basketball arena, then they would probably get beat down also. If someone were to throw a beer cup at my family or myself, I would beat their *ss. So just because it's a pro athelete that makes millions and millions of dollars, they are not allowed to defend themself when no one else will? bullsh*t. and Gary if you wouldn't defend yourself in a situation like that, then i pity your family PS I love how you are only commenting on certain pieces of what I say. obviously you are a Pistons fan.

[Gary Gorski]

I am a fan of the Pistons - you are obviously a fan of the Pacers. So what? If it were the Pistons in the stands swinging away at fans I'd be for the same punishment the Pacers players received. You're obviously mad because the Pacers lost their three best players and their chances of doing anything this season are diminished - perhaps they should have thought about that before going into the crowd. Personally I don't care that these guys play for the Pacers or any other team - what those athletes did was wrong and the league they play for is right in punishing them. The fans who participated in throwing things and going onto the court were wrong too. Two wrongs do not make a right though. What I find odd is that Artest felt the need to "defend" himself against an unknown person that threw a plastic cup at him yet didn't feel the need to defend himself against a 240 pound man who walked right up to him and pushed him in the face. You mean to tell me that some guy in the crowd throwing a cup of beer is more of a physical threat to him than Ben Wallace shoving him and getting ready to throw down with him? I agree buying a ticket doesn't give you the right to throw things or use foul and profane languague to other fans, players, coaches or refs but you know what? It happens. It happens every night in every NBA arena (not the throwing things necessarily but the verbal harrassment) It even happens at Conseco and sometimes the players are just as guilty of participating in it by talking trash right back to the fans. Pacers players have a well documented history of talking to people they should not be talking to like Reggie Miller v Spike Lee (and his famous choke motion to the crowd) and Ron Artest trying to pick a fight with Pat Riley. That stuff goes both ways and the players cannot talk trash back to people in the crowd and then expect for the people in the crowd to shut up when they decide they're tired of hearing it. However, buying a ticket means that you should not have to worry about having one of those guys on the court come into the stands and attack you just the same as players should not have to be concerned with fans attempting to come onto the playing court. Artest and Jackson crossed that line on Friday night. I'm shocked that anyone can defend the actions of Ron Artest considering the fact that he attacked THE WRONG GUY. Had he actually attacked the guy who threw the cup you might have a leg to stand on but he attacked someone who was totally innocent. The guy who was attacked even said that once Artest knocked him over Artest was asking him if he did it. ASKING HIM. Nothing like shoot first, ask questions later. Artest had no idea who did it and obviously proved that by attacking the wrong guy - the man needs some professional help. Just because he got hit by something does not give him the right to beat SOMEONE up - maybe you can argue he has the right to beat up the guy who threw it but how do you justify him attacking a guy who just happened to be standing there? Why you are talking about defending families I don't know. The only families that were in danger were those in the way of Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson.

[D. Boons Ghost]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]... I'm shocked that anyone can defend the actions of Ron Artest considering the fact that he attacked THE WRONG GUY. Had he actually attacked the guy who threw the cup you might have a leg to stand on but he attacked someone who was totally innocent. The guy who was attacked even said that once Artest knocked him over Artest was asking him if he did it. ASKING HIM. Nothing like shoot first, ask questions later. Artest had no idea who did it and obviously proved that by attacking the wrong guy - the man needs some professional help. Just because he got hit by something does not give him the right to beat SOMEONE up - maybe you can argue he has the right to beat up the guy who threw it but how do you justify him attacking a guy who just happened to be standing there? Why you are talking about defending families I don't know. The only families that were in danger were those in the way of Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson.[/QUOTE] I am in absolute agreement with you on this. It's amazing to say this, considering how jaded we become, but I am floored that anyone (and I mean anyone) could defend this situation. Justification for being a thug? I just do not understand this. You know... if someone insulted or threw something at my daughters or my wife (which did not happen in this Artest situation, I might add), I would do everything I possibly could to defend their honor. The thing about it is -- if I were to attack someone, regardless of whether the person did it or not, I would go to jail. Straight up; no passing go, do not collect $200. I guess Ty Cobb was just a misunderstood man. What they heck was I thinking? He wasn't the dangerously anti-social nutjob that everyone insists he was; he was just constantly defending his honor! Are some of us living in two different worlds? I honestly can not get the argument that because of the rowdy nature of the fans, it is acceptable to defend your wet jersey by storming into a crowd and wailing the tar out of someone. Hostile environments have been the way of sporting events since the dawn of time, for crying out loud! Yet you don't often hear about player sponsored riots, do you? They say that the surest sign of intelligence and development is how well you control your emotions. Everyone that participated in the violence (and that goes for any situation - not just this riot) is either a bully, or a clinical moron; either way, they are tremendously immature. This isn't directed at anyone, but... I'm not sure what is more disgusting: Artest's actions, or those that are defending his right to have done so. How many children were at that game, do you think? Someone's wet jersey and ringing ear is more important than the damage some 8 year old kid may have suffered by watching these barbarians? And that goes for any fan that was involved. They are a disgrace.

[saintbernard]

the fact that no one seems to being discussing here is very simple. according to the Pacers announcer this wasn't a one shot thing with the fans. the announcer and the team itself requested to have a group of fans removed for going up and over what is right to do at a sporting event. and their request was completely ignored by the Pistons and the arena officials. why was that? if this had been taken care of then the brawl may not have ever happened. and to Gary, actually I am a bulls and Mavs fan. I personally can't stand the Pacers or for that matter Ron Artest. but that doesn't mean he doesn.t have the right to defend himself when no one else does. and lastly to Gary, have you ever played team sports? if so you would completely understand my familiy analogy. being part of a team, they become part of your extended family

[Guest IrishHand]

I don't quite get why Gary and others keep steering this back to Artest when most everyone agrees he got more or less what he deserved. The outrage is against the complete lack of accountability by the Pistons organization. Had they had an appropriate level of security - the level I saw every time I went to a Laker game, for instance - that situation would never, could never have happened. At very worst, it would have been a Vernon Maxwell scenario, where an idiot player (Artest) jumps into the stands to attack an offending fan. Those on the court would have remained on the court, those in the stands would have remained in the stands, and both Artest and the attacked fan would have been promptly neutralized by security. Artest would have gotten a massive suspension just as he did, the fan would have been slapped on the wrist (just like Maxwell's racial-slur-slinger a few years back), and life would have gone on as usual for the NBA and it's fans. The only reason that the situation went from a Mad Max scenario to an arena-wide conflict involving dozens or hundreds of fans as well as many members of the Pacers organization was due to the flagrantly inadequate security. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Artest was correctly suspended. 73 games was probably excessive, but 40 would have been fine. No matter - it's not worth disputing. Stern wanted to make a point and did. I suspect it'll get decreased on appeal, but that's irrelevant. Artest was correctly, fairly, and justly suspended. Nothing happened to the Pistons organization. Nothing. They failed to provide the visiting team with any measure of protection against unruly fans and they failed to provide their fans with much protection against several aggressive players. The home team has an obligation to host a safe, secure atmosphere for both the visiting team and any fan that pays to attend the game. The Pistons organization failed miserably in that charge. Artest was guilty and was punished. The Pistons organization was equally guilty and was rewarded with the Central Division title. That's fair. :mad:

[saintbernard]

finally someone else that can see the whole picture

[Pacersfan46]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]So you're saying that Ron Artest is justified in charging into the crowd having no idea who threw the cup and attacking a guy who was doing nothing but standing there?[/QUOTE] The guy who was "attacked" today in an interview said Ron never hit him, just pushed him down and asked several times "did you throw it?". He said he just kept repeating "I didn't do it" ... and Artest never really hit him. So you can quit harping on this. As he knew he wasn't sure who threw it, and he never hit the man. The only people Artest actually hit was the man who attacked him from behind (the actual thrower), and the guy who came up in a menacing way on the court. Much different than the way you like to make it sound. [QUOTE=Gary Gorski]What I find odd is that Artest felt the need to "defend" himself against an unknown person that threw a plastic cup at him yet didn't feel the need to defend himself against a 240 pound man who walked right up to him and pushed him in the face. You mean to tell me that some guy in the crowd throwing a cup of beer is more of a physical threat to him than Ben Wallace shoving him and getting ready to throw down with him?[/QUOTE] If you watch, when Wallace throws the towel (or whatever) Ron Artest gets up to go after him, but there were too many people in the way, and holding him back.

[Druez]

Detroit fans have no class. "nudge gary"

[Druez]

I still don't understand why artest got suspended. He was attacked by the crowd. The rest is self defense. The fans had a mob mentality -- look it up its a real --. People get caught up in the moment and Artest who was already attacked by Wallace was trying to calm down, then got hit by a bottle. I would be pissed off also. I would of reacted the same way. This is another problem. Get the damn people off the court. There is no need for people to be so close to the court. I cringe everytime i see a player dive into the crown for a loose ball. If they hit a chair their career could be over.

[saintbernard]

After Having pl;ayed Sports my entire life (Div 1 College baseball and Football and Indy Baseball and AF2 and IFL football) I totally agree with you Druez. As a player on the road if the home team and arena security, don't protect you and your family (teammates) you have no choice but to defend yourself. I have been in 4 major sports brawls 2 in football and 2 in baseball, but they never involverd the fans because the stadium security did it's job. The Pistons as an organization showed a complete lack of class. I would be ashamed to be from Detroit or to be a member of the Detroit Pistons Organization right now. or for the matter to even be a fan of the team.

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=Pacersfan46]The guy who was "attacked" today in an interview said Ron never hit him, just pushed him down and asked several times "did you throw it?". [/QUOTE] Well good to know that he only pushed him down - its not really that bad if a player pushes a fan down and stands over him prepared to beat the snot out of him is it? [QUOTE=Pacersfan46]If you watch, when Wallace throws the towel (or whatever) Ron Artest gets up to go after him, but there were too many people in the way, and holding him back.[/QUOTE] Sure, five minutes later. Why didn't Artest feel the need to defend himself when Wallace shoved him in the face? That was the most blatant and dangerous attack on Artest all night but Artest was more than capable of backing away from that fight yet more than willing to attack a fan who has nowhere the build of Ben Wallace. As for why talk about Artest, Irish - I can't believe some people are condoning what he did - that's why. I know you've mentioned a couple of times about how security is so much greater at the Lakers games...don't forget the Lakers make more money than any other team in the league and the more money they make the more they can afford to spend on things like playoff level security year round. I can't imagine there is that level of security at any other arena in the league other than maybe NY. Also factor in that the Lakers games are hang-outs for Hollywood celebs so of course there is going to be extra security for those people - its just how the world works. There was no precedent for this kind of event and no way a team or arena could have possibly been prepared for it. I have not seen any confirmation that there were requests from the Pacers bench to have fans removed so until I do I can't even comment if that was true - if it was then those fans should have been investigated by security if they were not and watched closely by security for the duration of the game. Whether that happened or not it still does not give Artest and Stephen Jackson the right to go into the crowd and start wailing on people. The guy who came onto the court and made like he was going to punch Artest had every reason to be punched out by Artest (not by O'Neal though) but the fact that Artest attacked an innocent person is deplorable (and yes, pushing someone down and standing over them getting ready to beat the daylights out of them is an attack whether or not you punch him) - I don't care how mad he was at the fans or the fan who threw the cup it does not make it ok to attack anyone he sees fit. If the league wants to fine the Pistons organization that's fine - if it is proven that security was alerted about that group of fans prior to the incident then the Pistons do deserve a fine but its dumb to try and say they should play in an empty stadium or lose home games - the other 18-19 thousand people who had left the game already or chose to behave themselves should not be punished for the group of people that acted up - the Pacers aren't forced to forfeit the next 73 games because of Ron Artest, you punish the guilty people and let the innocent ones go back to doing what they were doing. In the end, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal are to blame if the Pacers suck now (which they don't cause they won last night while Detroit lost to Charlotte) - not the Pistons, not David Stern and not anyone else. Seems to me that 9 other Pacers and 12 Pistons were able to restrain themselves from punching out any fans so if the Pacers season is over then the blame for THAT lies only on Artest, Jackson and O'Neal - they were the ones that lost their cool unlike some of their teammates that despite the environment actually tried to help STOP the fight rather than contributing to it (and some got beat up for that like Fred Jones).

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=Druez]Detroit fans have no class. "nudge gary"[/QUOTE] If ever there was an appropriate time for pot.kettle.black :) Hey, at least they threw plastic cups and not batteries. Nudge, nudge ;)

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=saintbernard]After Having pl;ayed Sports my entire life (Div 1 College baseball and Football and Indy Baseball and AF2 and IFL football) I totally agree with you Druez. As a player on the road if the home team and arena security, don't protect you and your family (teammates) you have no choice but to defend yourself. I have been in 4 major sports brawls 2 in football and 2 in baseball, but they never involverd the fans because the stadium security did it's job. The Pistons as an organization showed a complete lack of class. I would be ashamed to be from Detroit or to be a member of the Detroit Pistons Organization right now. or for the matter to even be a fan of the team.[/QUOTE] So in all those brawls you were in not once EVER did a fan throw ANYTHING at one player brawling? I'm guessing that some fan thew some thing at some point in time - its just that in those brawls the people involved had enough sense not to go into the crowd or had a barrier preventing them from doing so. The only thing the Detroit Pistons did wrong was that Ben Wallace pushed Artest - a vast majority of their fans did nothing wrong at all. There's absolutely no reason for someone to be ashamed to be from Detroit or to be a fan of the Pistons. Some Pistons fans acted like jackasses, some Pacers players acted like jackasses. The behavior of those people is to be ashamed of. And until I see a report that security was notified of rowdy people in the section where the cup came from I'm not going to say security didn't do their job. Once Artest charged the crowd there was nothing security could do. Let me ask you this - do you think the other Pacers players are wimps since they didn't attack any fans in defense of their "family members"?

[saintbernard]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski] I know you've mentioned a couple of times about how security is so much greater at the Lakers games...don't forget the Lakers make more money than any other team in the league and the more money they make the more they can afford to spend on things like playoff level security year round. I can't imagine there is that level of security at any other arena in the league other than maybe NY. Also factor in that the Lakers games are hang-outs for Hollywood celebs so of course there is going to be extra security for those people - its just how the world works. There was no precedent for this kind of event and no way a team or arena could have possibly been prepared for it. I have not seen any confirmation that there were requests from the Pacers bench to have fans removed so until I do I can't even comment if that was true - if it was then those fans should have been investigated by security if they were not and watched closely by security for the duration of the game. Whether that happened or not it still does not give Artest and Stephen Jackson the right to go into the crowd and start wailing on people. The guy who came onto the court and made like he was going to punch Artest had every reason to be punched out by Artest (not by O'Neal though) but the fact that Artest attacked an innocent person is deplorable (and yes, pushing someone down and standing over them getting ready to beat the daylights out of them is an attack whether or not you punch him) - I don't care how mad he was at the fans or the fan who threw the cup it does not make it ok to attack anyone he sees fit. If the league wants to fine the Pistons organization that's fine - if it is proven that security was alerted about that group of fans prior to the incident then the Pistons do deserve a fine but its dumb to try and say they should play in an empty stadium or lose home games [/QUOTE] Gary your excuses for your Hometown Detroit Goons is such a cop-out. the bias in your arguements is sickening. First off. to say that only Teams that make tons and tons of money should pay for extra security is a complete joke and ignorant. The Team i work for has better security that the Pistons had on that Friday n ight. and we play in a 9,000 seat arena in small indoor football league the UIF. 2nd, to say there is no precendent is again stupid. it has happened more than once in soccer games. and almost that years ago between Florida St and Miami. 3rd off, to say if the reports about the Pistons ignoring the requests to have fans thrown out is true, then they as an organization should be fined, but you can't agree about them losing home games or playing in an empty arena. but yet it's ok for Artest to be suspended for the season and Jackson 30 games and O'neal 25 games is just and fair. well that to me just ruined all of your credibility. because there would have been absolutely no need for the players to do this, had security done it's job. so the fault lands squarely on the Detroit Punks and Goons Organization. and they should end up with a worse penalty that the Pacers players. so yes they should be forced to lose home games and or play in an empty arena.

[saintbernard]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]So in all those brawls you were in not once EVER did a fan throw ANYTHING at one player brawling? I'm guessing that some fan thew some thing at some point in time - its just that in those brawls the people involved had enough sense not to go into the crowd or had a barrier preventing them from doing so. The only thing the Detroit Pistons did wrong was that Ben Wallace pushed Artest - a vast majority of their fans did nothing wrong at all. There's absolutely no reason for someone to be ashamed to be from Detroit or to be a fan of the Pistons. Some Pistons fans acted like jackasses, some Pacers players acted like jackasses. The behavior of those people is to be ashamed of. And until I see a report that security was notified of rowdy people in the section where the cup came from I'm not going to say security didn't do their job. Once Artest charged the crowd there was nothing security could do. Let me ask you this - do you think the other Pacers players are wimps since they didn't attack any fans in defense of their "family members"?[/QUOTE] To answer you Gary, yes i have had things thrown at me including batteries, rocks, you name it. but the difeernce is security always handled the situation. which did not happen in this situation No the Pistons did much more wrong than that. they did not handle the situation early in the Game which caused it to be out of control by the end and Yes Secuirty blew it, The Pacers play by Play announcer has said on ESPN radio that the announcers and the Pacers team itself asked to have a group of fans watched and or removed by security. I have heard this the last 3 mornings on ESPN radio out of Chicago. and no I do not consider the other players wimps, because it is a judgement that each player must make. I for one would have been defending my teamates. that is how my Junior year of football ended in college, I was suspended for the last 2 games due to a fight at the University of Miami for Protecting Charlie ward from getting the crap knocked out of him

[Pacersfan46]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]Well good to know that he only pushed him down - its not really that bad if a player pushes a fan down and stands over him prepared to beat the snot out of him is it?[/QUOTE] It's not nearly what you described. That's all I'm saying. Suspension wise, I think the only thing I don't agree with so far though is the Pistons get off free, and Artest's suspension should be more around 50 or 60 games (plus Anthony Johnson, I'll mention in a minute). Give him 10 practice games before the playoffs. I understand Stern wanting to error on the side of being too much of a discplinarian, rather than risk letting them off too easy. I just think hitting Artest in the pocket for 4 million dollars would be enough. Any NBA player will respect a fine of that magnitude. Oh yeah, and one thing don't understand here is Anthony Johnson getting a 5 game suspension, and Ben Wallace getting 6. What the hell did Anthony Johnson do?

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=saintbernard]Gary your excuses for your Hometown Detroit Goons is such a cop-out. the bias in your arguements is sickening. [/QUOTE] Dude, why so hostile? Show me where I'm making excuses for my "Hometown Detroit Goons". I've said on numerous occassions that the people involved in throwing things were way out of line and should be ashamed of themselves and should be prosecuted by the law and should be banned from attending any more games. But there were alot of people in the stadium that didn't participate at all in the fight - that doesn't make those people "goons". You apparently were in no less than 4 "major brawls" playing sports - does that make you a "goon" or worse since you have been involved in 4 more major sports brawls than most of the people who attended that game? [QUOTE=saintbernard]First off. to say that only Teams that make tons and tons of money should pay for extra security is a complete joke and ignorant. The Team i work for has better security that the Pistons had on that Friday n ight. and we play in a 9,000 seat arena in small indoor football league the UIF.[/QUOTE] I didn't realize you ran a sports arena. I said that its alot easier for a team like the Lakers to be able to cough up the money for extra security than any other team. Extra security costs extra money - you think that the people who run the arenas are just going to eat that cost out of the good of their hearts? Adding more security means the beer, food and parking prices will all be increasing. And no offense but controlling 9,000 people in an arena that has a barrier between crowd and field is different than controlling 20,000 people in an arena where at any time a fan can leap out of his seat on the court and attack a player if he or she wanted to or a player can attack a fan without having anything impeding his path to the fan. [QUOTE=saintbernard]2nd, to say there is no precendent is again stupid. it has happened more than once in soccer games. and almost that years ago between Florida St and Miami. [/QUOTE] Again, you're talking different sports. Soccer and football have barriers between the fans and the playing field. Basketball does not. And there is no precedent to this event - nothing like this has happened in the history of the NBA. [QUOTE=saintbernard]3rd off, to say if the reports about the Pistons ignoring the requests to have fans thrown out is true, then they as an organization should be fined, but you can't agree about them losing home games or playing in an empty arena. but yet it's ok for Artest to be suspended for the season and Jackson 30 games and O'neal 25 games is just and fair. well that to me just ruined all of your credibility. because there would have been absolutely no need for the players to do this, had security done it's job. so the fault lands squarely on the Detroit Punks and Goons Organization. and they should end up with a worse penalty that the Pacers players. so yes they should be forced to lose home games and or play in an empty arena.[/QUOTE] Yes, I said that if the Pistons security ignored requests to check out THOSE fans then the Pistons should be fined. But what does that have to do with the Pistons players or fans who didn't participate in the brawl? Why should those people be punished? This is Artest's TENTH suspension since 1999 - I think he should be coming up on lifetime ban and not any more suspensions. I'm going to vote for an 11 strikes and you're out policy. I don't know why you condone what the Pacers players did and I don't know why you have such a distaste for the people of Detroit. Who was the ones throwing punches? It wasn't anyone in a Pistons jersey. The fans who threw things were wrong AND SO WERE Artest, O'Neal and Jackson. Obviously you don't think its fair that the Pacers are punished because some of their PLAYERS did something wrong while the Pistons are not punished because some of their FANS did something wrong. I just hope that you are consistent and that on Christmas Day when the Pistons travel to Indy and Indiana fans are being rowdy and using profanity at the Pistons players that if any Pistons feels threatened and go into the stands and punch out Pacers fans that you will applaud them for doing so as well.

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=Pacersfan46]. I just think hitting Artest in the pocket for 4 million dollars would be enough. Any NBA player will respect a fine of that magnitude.[/QUOTE] Artest doesn't respect the punishment he got now or the last nine times he was suspended. If he did he wouldn't have been on the Today show pimping his record label and CD - he would have been apologizing up and down and admitting that he needs some help. [QUOTE=Pacersfan46]Oh yeah, and one thing don't understand here is Anthony Johnson getting a 5 game suspension, and Ben Wallace getting 6. What the hell did Anthony Johnson do?[/QUOTE] Wallace's suspension was too severe for what he did but in light of the events that happened afterwards I understand it. I have no idea why Anthony Johnson was suspended for 5 games though unless he did something off camera.

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=saintbernard]To answer you Gary, yes i have had things thrown at me including batteries, rocks, you name it. but the difeernce is security always handled the situation. which did not happen in this situation No the Pistons did much more wrong than that. they did not handle the situation early in the Game which caused it to be out of control by the end [/QUOTE] So in those games that you had batteries and rocks thrown at you how exactly did security do a good job if something was thrown at you? The difference is in those situations security had a chance to react when someone threw something because you would have had to sprint to the side of the field, climb the wall and then go into the crowd to beat up someone. Artest had to get off a table and he was into the crowd already. How is security supposed to react to that? Oh, and one other thing played a factor....you managed to keep your temper under control obviously. You were being hit by things far more dangerous than a plastic cup and didn't feel the need to rush the fans. You not charging into the crowd went a long way in preventing a riot :)

[saintbernard]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]So in those games that you had batteries and rocks thrown at you how exactly did security do a good job if something was thrown at you? The difference is in those situations security had a chance to react when someone threw something because you would have had to sprint to the side of the field, climb the wall and then go into the crowd to beat up someone. Artest had to get off a table and he was into the crowd already. How is security supposed to react to that? Oh, and one other thing played a factor....you managed to keep your temper under control obviously. You were being hit by things far more dangerous than a plastic cup and didn't feel the need to rush the fans. You not charging into the crowd went a long way in preventing a riot :)[/QUOTE] actually the diference was security handled it on the first sign of the behavior unlike in Detroit. If you don't know all the facts you can't win this arguement. Please try and listen to ESPN radio and hear the Pacers side of things as well. you are argueing the side of biased Pistons fan only. and actually it's getting to be a bore. Since you only pick pits and pieces you want to argue from other people's opinions. you won't ever touch on more than your side of what happened. have you ever played team sports Gary at a high level?

[ShootTheMoon]

Let me first say that I think IrishHand is right on target here. While we can argue about the specific length of the suspensions, reasonable people should agree that the principals deserved lengthy suspensions, which they received. But the fact that the Pistons franchise, which did a deplorable job of providing security, basically gets to walk away scot-free, and with their primary rivals hamstrung as a result, is ridiculous. David Stern has invited the fans to increase their assault on visiting players. After all, it could help your team win a championship. If I owned the Indiana Pacers, I would seriously consider making the next home game against Detroit "Free Beer Night". And giving security the night off. And inviting any recently paroled, violent felons to sit in the front row. And then I'd do it all again when the Heat and the Cavs rolled into town. Now, of course I am joking, and no owner will do anything like that. But I am quite sure that a lot of people have had this same thought, and at least some of those people are going to be sitting in NBA crowds, and at least some of those are going to step across the line, perhaps in a manner much worse. The Pistons should have been levied an 8-figure fine, beer should be banned from the Palace for, at a minimum, the remainder of the season, and the Detroit crowd should be placed on probation - the next incident of fans assaulting players should result in some form of serious sanction - forcing the team to forfeit a game, forcing them to play one game in an empty arena, etc. None of this will happen, and that is a shame, because it is only a matter of time before some fan with a sense of entitlement causes an even bigger tragedy. As far as the PAcers season goes, don't write them off. If they can limp through the next 20 games or so, and come out with a .500 record on the other side (they are 1-1 since the incident), they should do quite well down the stretch, even without Artest. 35-40 wins will get you in the playoffs, and I would peg the Pacers to win 45+ unless they completely fall apart. Once in the playoffs, there are only 2 tough teams in the east - Detroit, who will need to be 100% healthy to make a deep run, as they have 5 wonderful players and a horrid bench; and Miami, who have 2 truly great players, but a very shaky supporting cast. I figure the Pacers will make at least the 2nd round of the playoffs, and maybe a bit further if they get lucky.

[Gary Gorski]

[QUOTE=ShootTheMoon] But the fact that the Pistons franchise, which did a deplorable job of providing security, basically gets to walk away scot-free, and with their primary rivals hamstrung as a result, is ridiculous.[/QUOTE] This line of thinking baffles me. You make it seem like this was some grand conspiracy by the Pistons to destroy the Pacers. If you recall the Pistons BEAT the Pacers in the playoffs last season. The reason the Pacers are hamstrung now is because Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson went into the crowd to attack fans and because Jermaine O'Neal ran across the floor and punched someone who was no longer a threat to anyone. Why do people not want to levy any responisbility and guilt on the 3 out of 12 Pacers players that attacked people? Those three players were brawling with people - if it was self defense then why did the other 9 Pacers players not feel the need to start attacks on people and just who exactly attacked Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal? It is their own fault they are suspended. The fans involved are guilty too and the ones identifiable are going to be suspended from coming back to the Palace so they're being suspended too - its just that they are being suspended from their hobby and not their job. Here's a good idea - DON'T GET IN FIGHTS AT WORK. If you go to your shop or office on Monday and someone spills a cup of coffee on you and you start attacking people what do you think is going to happen to you? I'm gonna guess you're going to be suspended without pay or possibly fired. You do realize the three Pacers players are suspended because they attacked people in the crowd and on the floor and not because a Pistons fan threw a cup at Ron Artest right and you do realize that if the Pacers players just walk off the court and not go into the stands that not one of them would be suspended today? [QUOTE=ShootTheMoon]David Stern has invited the fans to increase their assault on visiting players. After all, it could help your team win a championship.[/QUOTE] That's the classic strawman argument in this debate. Oh no, now fans of the other 29 teams will be starting riots at games to try and get players on other teams suspended. Well, what happens if the guy who started it was a Pacers fan disguised as a Pistons fan in an attempt to get the Pistons in trouble? Hmmmm? If the league is going to punish the teams for having a person in a crowd throw something then why wouldn't people dress up like fans of their rivals to try and get them in trouble? [QUOTE=ShootTheMoon]beer should be banned from the Palace for, at a minimum, the remainder of the season, and the Detroit crowd should be placed on probation - the next incident of fans assaulting players should result in some form of serious sanction[/QUOTE] So that riot outside of Fenway in the playoffs....should beer have been banned from the entire city of Boston since drunk people in the city were rioting? Why should the 98% of fans at the game that weren't acting like idiots have to be punished by not being able to have a beer or having to have games played without crowds or anything else like that?

[Celts-Sonics Fan]

On ESPN Radio this morning... I listened to a round table discussion between Mike Golic (ex NFL) Mark Schloreth (ex NFL) and Tim Legler (ex NBA) discuss the "Artest" Incident with Mike Green as the facilitator (dj). They all agreed to a man, that a player never ever has the right to go into the stands, no matter what the provocation. They related a story told by KC Jones (ex NBA player and coach) about him and Bill Russell. He detailed how they had to walk through the fans to get to the court in the 60's and how the racial slurs rained down on them nonstop! Yet they knew that they could and should do nothing about it. The thought never entered their minds. They just ingnored the comments and played the game. Anyway the discussion turned to how the NBA needs to make sure that Artest gets the help he needs so he can become socially healthy. All three ex-atheletes agreed that this is the responsibility of each league (NFL,NBA, NHL and MLB) in this kind of situation. IMO this kind of event if left unchecked could severely impact pro sports. To the point of driving the fans away from the stadiums and from purchasing the team memorobilia. The point I am trying to make is that Commissioner Stern realized that this needed to be dealt with harshly! I think that many pro atheletes have forgotten how important we fans are to their profession. Without us they will be playing in their backyards or street courts in their spare time away from the job that pays them between $30,000 to $100,000 annually. I also do not understand the comparisons made with The Cedric Maxwell incident. Yes he went into the crowd and hit a fan. But that was it. No riot occurred. He did not stay and look to hit innocent fans. He was angered by a comment made about his stillborn child. Was he right to respond the way he did? Nope! He got 10 games. Had he continued the fight and started a riot, I guarantee you he would have gotten a 20-30 game suspension. Now why did Artest get 73 games (entire season). Because of his record! he is a loose canon. Stern recognized this and took appropriate actions. Players like Artest (Rodman etc) cause more harm to the game they play then bring good. IMO the NBA would be better off if Artest retired. Some of you have stated that if somebody swears at you or uses racial slurs, that you are entitled to a physical response. Where did you ever get this idea? It is simply not true. Hey i agree I would like there to be laws against racial slurs and swearing in general. However we have somehting called "The Bill of Rights" which guarantees free speech. It does not guarantee the freedom to physically abuse another individual. Should the fans/Pistons organization be held (more) responsible, then they have been? Perhaps, but that is not up to the players to determine. The league needs to work with the authorities on this. What disgusts me the most and what is the underlying cause of all of these incidents is pure and unadulterated SELFISHNESS! Ron Artest, like many pro-atheletes and many human beings think only of themselves. If the 1980's was a "me" decade,. then I would classify these times as a "me-only and screw-you" decade! The Lord's two most significant commandments are: (1) Love the Lord with all of your Heart, Mind, Soul and Strength and (2)To love your neighbor as yourself. Now it is not up to any human to say how we are doing on the first (though, I would guess not as good as He would want) but I can sure tell you from my experience that we are failing miserably on the second one. If we all truly loved our neighbors as ourselves this place we call Earth would be allot more friendly than it currently is :rolleyes: Once upon a time pro-athelets considered it a blessing to be able to play a game (that kids play) they love and to get paid for it as well. Today they not only think it is their right but that we fans owe them for this right. Could the chasm between pro-atheletes and fans get any wider? If it does could this spell the beginning of the end for pro sports as we know it? Something to ponder hmmm...

[saintbernard]

[QUOTE=Gary Gorski]This line of thinking baffles me. You make it seem like this was some grand conspiracy by the Pistons to destroy the Pacers. [/QUOTE] If that's true. then why didn't security do anything when Pacer Personael requested something be done about unruly fans?

[saintbernard]

[QUOTE=Celts-Sonics Fan] Should the fans/Pistons organization be held (more) responsible, then they have been? Perhaps, but that is not up to the players to determine. The league needs to work with the authorities on this. [/QUOTE] Once the Home team, the Detroit Goons in this case, Refuse to Protect the other team from abuse, then yes it does become up to the players to protect themselves. why do you or anyone expect the Pacer players to sit through an entire game and have fans throw things towards the bench and yell nasty things at them? those are not the rights you have when you buy a ticket to a sporting event. In your life, if you were being verbally abused and physically abused, and you called the Police and nothing was done and the abuse continued would you stand up for yourself eventually? most of us in the world would, especially those of us that are naturally competitive which 99% of pro athletes are. By not responding to the situation early on, the Detroit Goons escalated the situation to where the fans that were doing this knew they could get away with pretty much anything that happened. and one last rant, I love how as a society we hold Pro athletes, musicians and other entertainers to such high standards that OOHHH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!! he went into the stands and pushed some guy down..... There were Probably 200 murders committed that same night across the country. that's just a bit damnn more important that some fight at a basketball game. it's a damnn sporting event not WW3. Artest should have been suspended 20 games, Jackson 20 games, O'neal 10 games, Ben Wallace 10 Games and the Pistons forced to play 20 home games at a neutral site or in an empty arena and then be done with this crap. it shouldn't still be in the news almost a week later. there's soo much more important things for people to worry about. what about our soldiers over in Iraq and Afghanistan. or people withut jobs.