So what actually makes a "Next big thing"

[Hyde Hill]

I think there is some confusion as towards what next big thing game wise is and what it is in the real world. On neither side there are clear cut examples. But game wise D-Lyrium was nearest the truth Hot prospects = Quality wrestler eg skill caps eg potential, Next Big Thing = High Destiny. This doesn't mean that guys that are not Next Big Things can't obtain and have an overness cap of 100 but NBT will get there much easier, will lose less overness or gain more via a loss and tend to rocket up the card which is why you should handle them with care or they will develop an ego. Also why guys like Warrior can be a next big thing because destiny is mainly defined by star quality and charisma not wrestling skill in game. Potential eg hot prospects are skill which the warrior wouldn't have a lot of.

[lazorbeak]

I think there is some confusion as towards what next big thing game wise is and what it is in the real world. On neither side there are clear cut examples. But game wise D-Lyrium was nearest the truth Hot prospects = Quality wrestler eg skill caps eg potential, Next Big Thing = High Destiny. This doesn't mean that guys that are not Next Big Things can't obtain and have an overness cap of 100 but NBT will get there much easier, will lose less overness or gain more via a loss and tend to rocket up the card which is why you should handle them with care or they will develop an ego. Also why guys like Warrior can be a next big thing because destiny is mainly defined by star quality and charisma not wrestling skill in game. Potential eg hot prospects are skill which the warrior wouldn't have a lot of.

 

Agreed on Warrior. This is why you'll have situations in C-Verse games where somebody like Robbie Retro will be listed as a "next big thing" even though he will be far behind somebody like Marc DuBois on the "hot prospects" list. The fact that Warrior was never a great wrestler is neither here nor there when it comes to NBT status.

[Phantom Stranger]

Guys, before we bicker too much here...

 

1. Not all Next Big Things are handled right
   
2. Not all workers companies push, even push hard, are Next Big Things or even Hot Prospects
   
3. It's possible for a Next Big Thing to not make it but also to not fizzle
   
4. THEREFORE many of the examples people are splitting hairs on are actually difficult to settle on
   
5. Which means there's no need for raised tempers, or even to reach an ideal point
   

 

So, was Shawn Michaels ever a Hot Prospect? Well, he was pushed strong as a rookie, based off unusually strong performances. Hot Prospect or guy who starts out with unusually good stats - or both?

 

He did damn well with Jannetty and got solid pushes in many places. Hot Prospect, talented worker, or both?

 

He eventually reached the top, and for all that there's a comment upthread that he never drew a dime, I personally have shelled out for events based solely on his appearance. Hot Prospect, Next Big Thing, or guy who just made it nonetheless?

 

How about the Ultimate Warrior? Was he a Next Big Thing mishandled or just someone Vince thought might be one?

[T-Jay]

I think HBK's backstage attitude stopped him from becoming the NBT.

 

As much as people comment about him and Triple H being able to run the show or having the "stroke" to do whatever they want.... Vince did get sick of his constant power trips and tantrums and bull**** backstage which I think was the reason he was kept on a leash career wise. Yes, I know he got the gold and whatnot but he never realised his full potential.

 

I'm also wondering whether the Undertaker could have been classed as an NBT... as he came in and scared and demolished opponents and shocked the **** outta crowds into liking him.... probably kids were too afraid to boo him. hahahaha.

 

He became a big star very quickly and his popularity never really dropped at all even with the bikie gimmic.

[Phantom Stranger]

I think HBK's backstage attitude stopped him from becoming the NBT.

 

1) NBT is something you are that you may or may not follow up on the promise of, in TEW terms.

 

2) We're talking about the same guy, right? Multiple Wrestlemania main events, title reigns, high-rated matches, seemingly bulletproof overness these days? In what way did he not live up to any promise level he may have had?

 

As D-Lyrium has pointed out, in the C-Verse (to look at a balanced database) there are only three workers in the US with A or higher popularity. You can assume that many NBTs fulfil their promise when they hit B+.

[T-Jay]

To me... the NBT (if they reach their potential) should be taking over from where the last one stopped. HBK should have been bigger than Hogan in that respect. Whereas it was Stone Cold that became the biggest wrestling icon during his run.

 

The NBT should be a worker that either agents or owner/booker see a lot of potential to be able to someday carry the promotion to a new height of fame/popularity/wealth.

 

Lesnar was brought in to be a monster heel, but he wasn't gonna be a NBT. He never could have carried the WWE to a new era. Austin's anti-establishment character pushed the boundaries that even Hogan wouldn't have dared (although he did try in WCW...). He brought the WWE into somewhere it had never been. That's why he's considered the biggest superstar the company's ever had.

 

Does having the potential to be the NBT only apply to one promotion?? If someone has the potential to become huge but for whatever reason that doesn't happen so leaves to work at another company even if it's smaller, they could still become that companies NBT if the direction works in conjunction with the workers potential.

[ampulator]

1) NBT is something you are that you may or may not follow up on the promise of, in TEW terms.

 

2) We're talking about the same guy, right? Multiple Wrestlemania main events, title reigns, high-rated matches, seemingly bulletproof overness these days? In what way did he not live up to any promise level he may have had?

 

As D-Lyrium has pointed out, in the C-Verse (to look at a balanced database) there are only three workers in the US with A or higher popularity. You can assume that many NBTs fulfil their promise when they hit B+.

Shawn Michaels, at least his pre-Invasion career goes, probably didn't become as big as people expected. I don't think it was even his attitude that did it, either. Shawn Michaels became a champ during a transitional time for the WWE, which is between the Heydays of the 80's and the Attitude Era. It's not really his fault.

 

As for now, Shawn Michaels seemingly bullet-proof overness has something to do with him being a lot better than a lot of the younger wrestlers, and fans not accept the people that go against Shawn Michaels in a program. I thought that Shawn Michaels versus John Cena only served to highlight Cena's weaknesses (something even Shawn Michaels can't protect John Cena on), and really cost Cena some face heat and momentum.

 

As for being N.B.T., I think Kurt Angle WOULD have been considered a N.B.T. or even a Hot Prospect, but he was already 30 when he joined the WWE.

 

In other words, it's not always necessary to push someone based on being N.B.T. or a Hot Prospect. For example, in SWF, Tom Gilmore doesn't show in either list. Does that mean you shouldn't use him? Heck no. Gilmore can easily become a "Franchise Player", and he should be.

[T-Jay]

It always annoyed me when fans would say Cena can't wrestle because he just does the same moves over and over...... umm. hello.... HBK, Triple H, Ric Flair (especially flair) & Hogan were all guilty of exactly that week in and week out year after year.

 

Now I understand that having a few set moves to alert the crowd that your gonna end your opponent works, but when those same moves never change after more than 10yrs that's a serious problem.

 

Hell, many wrestlers including Mick Foley, Bret Hart, Goldberg & others were very critical of the fact that Ric Flair only had a handful of moves and just repeated them over and over til the match ended..... and half of them usually consisted of eye-pokes etc. And yet he has the balls to say he has more in-ring talent than 90% of the roster. Wow... Flair and Hogan are just horrid to have to sit through. If it wasn't for such incredible midcard talent throught their runs to prop up the card, most of those companies would have gone bust especially WWE who were putting their whole existence on the back of Hogan as chief flag waver.

 

*** Rant over.... carry on.

[ampulator]

I never said John Cena is boring because of his move list. It's more that he isn't a good wrestler. Period. He's boring in character and in the ring.

 

Hogan could (though no longer) used to do with less and that was fine. John Cena's matches are just... boring. Even against the better guys, his matches were "feh". He has boring character, boring gimmick, he doesn't sell well, he's not particularly consistent, he doesn't have good in-ring psychology, he's not particularly good at brawling, and he has not a lot of technical skill.

 

But it's not his fault. I really, absolutely, believe that. It's WWE's fault. They are suffocating him character-wise and in-ring-wise. Everytime he wrestled anyone that was a little better than him, a lot of fans cheer for the other guy. WWE needs to help him, but they use him as a merchandise salesman instead.

[lazorbeak]

To me... the NBT (if they reach their potential) should be taking over from where the last one stopped. HBK should have been bigger than Hogan in that respect. Whereas it was Stone Cold that became the biggest wrestling icon during his run.

 

The NBT should be a worker that either agents or owner/booker see a lot of potential to be able to someday carry the promotion to a new height of fame/popularity/wealth.

 

Since we're talking about an in-game term we should probably use the in-game definition. Your definition is so limited that pretty much no one except The Rock would qualify (since Austin was in his 30's already).

 

That said, I don't think HBK was ever a "Next Big Thing." Talented? Sure. But he wasn't a guy you immediately singled out as a multi-time champion the first time you saw him. As mentioned earlier, while "prospects" are more defined by their wrestling abilities, NBTs are more defined by their potential to be seen at the very top of a company. Even at his peak, Michaels looked more like an IC level guy more than somebody that should be challenging for the world title.

 

Lesnar was brought in to be a monster heel, but he wasn't gonna be a NBT. He never could have carried the WWE to a new era. Austin's anti-establishment character pushed the boundaries that even Hogan wouldn't have dared (although he did try in WCW...). He brought the WWE into somewhere it had never been. That's why he's considered the biggest superstar the company's ever had.

 

NBT /= biggest superstar the company has ever had. It's just not what we're talking about here. And as stated, Lesnar was more than a main eventer: he was the face of the company and main evented a wrestlemania his first full year in the WWE. A-Train was a monster heel; Lesnar was a NBT.

 

I would say Undertaker probably was a "Next Big Thing," although obviously he never changed the business or was ever the biggest star in the history of wrestling. When he came into WCW as Mean Mark Callous, even with a gimmick that dumb, he always looked like a superstar in waiting. It's a shame he spent so long feuding with "monster heels" instead of getting a real run at the top in the 90's.

 

Another former next big thing? Lex Luger. He was a professional football player and workout freak that didn't become a pro-wrestler in his late 20's, but had the look that was huge at the time and was headlining Starrcade four years later. He's another case of a guy that didn't develop as much as he could have and ended up being pretty dreadful a decade later, but again, the fact that a guy didn't end up setting the business on fire or becoming a fantastic talent doesn't mean he wasn't a NBT; it just means he wasn't a very successful one.

[Fullhouse]

Yeah, but Flair and Hogan didnt need to and didnt get over because of ring work, they got over because of their mic work and who there were. Hulkamania wasnt about wrestling it was about the character, Ric Flair's overness came more so from being the "dirtiest player in the game, and his styling and profiling lifetsyle."

 

It always annoyed me when fans would say Cena can't wrestle because he just does the same moves over and over...... umm. hello.... HBK, Triple H, Ric Flair (especially flair) & Hogan were all guilty of exactly that week in and week out year after year.

 

Now I understand that having a few set moves to alert the crowd that your gonna end your opponent works, but when those same moves never change after more than 10yrs that's a serious problem.

 

Hell, many wrestlers including Mick Foley, Bret Hart, Goldberg & others were very critical of the fact that Ric Flair only had a handful of moves and just repeated them over and over til the match ended..... and half of them usually consisted of eye-pokes etc. And yet he has the balls to say he has more in-ring talent than 90% of the roster. Wow... Flair and Hogan are just horrid to have to sit through. If it wasn't for such incredible midcard talent throught their runs to prop up the card, most of those companies would have gone bust especially WWE who were putting their whole existence on the back of Hogan as chief flag waver.

 

*** Rant over.... carry on.

[ampulator]

Actually, Ric Flair could AND did deliver the goods when he was wrestling. He may not have been a technician or a brawler, but he was definitely competent enough in both and in wrestling 101, that, along with his Entertainment ability, made he a good champion.

 

If Ric Flair could Entertain, but couldn't wrestle at all, he wouldn't have lasted very long early on.

 

I'm not saying Hogan couldn't do this when he was in the WWF during the 80's. But he didn't really need to. Ric Flair HAD to.

[Self]

The thing about "Next Big Things" and "Hot Prospects" is that it's practically impossible for an armchair fan to know who has real talent and potential in the ring. I believe Bret Hart said it in his book, to really know if someone is a good worker you have to get in the ring and work with them.

 

I've only skimmed much of this thread, but it seems like a case of over-analyzing things. It's all mathematics. Hot Prospects are workers with High Potential to increase their skills and become great wrestlers. Next Big Things are workers with Awesome Destiny. Potential is fixed, and with the benefit of hindsight we can say "Yes, Shawn Michaels became a great worker, therefore he had great potential when he first started." It's harder to say that with modern day rookies, because, well, we can't see into the future, or judge someone's potential like professional scouts and workers.

 

Destiny, however, is random, so we can't really replicate it.

 

I'm flicking through my diary game and the only "Next Big Thing" I have is Jacob Jett, who I doubt I'm ever going to debut on TV, let alone push to the moon. He's charismatic and flashy, which works well in my product, and talented overall, but he's never going to be the Top Star in my promotion because I'm never going to push him.

 

I'm not show how that story is relevant, I just felt like sharing.

[The Masked Orange]

I just want to mention something that relates into the whole Austin argument.

 

 

Duane Stone, who is currently 34 in my game, has been an opener for me for around 10 months now, I just decided I need a new midcard face, and since Duan definitely has the skills, I decided to boost him up with some wins over some lower midcarders.

 

He beat a C+ Ricky Dale Johnson, and then beat a C- Nigel Svensonn, he went from "D" to "C+" in these two matches.

 

To me, it's sort of an Austin-esque example of an older wrestler having a popularity boom in a non-sports entertainment company.

[Kobe1724]

On that note, what makes for a next big thing in game?

 

My standard way of trying to develop a young worker that becomes a next big thing almost every time in game used to be to make him/her 22-27, with B+ to A* charisma, B+ to A* athleticism, B+ to A* stamina, B+ to A* star quality, B+ to A* resilience and either B+ to A*sex appeal of B+ to A* menace. The rest of the stats would be in the broad D- to B+ range that other truly exceptional people in their age group typically have.

 

However, I found that absent also setting these workers to have high potential to start (rather than random) they only became next big things about a third of the time. The wrestlers that frequently become next big things in my game tend to frequently have low SQ and charisma but higher in ring stats.

 

Is this worker a next big thing?

 

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7757/jwilde.jpg

 

^^ An example of a worker "designed" to be a future company superstar (probably has almost all of the stats to be one already, absent psychology)

 

In my game, she is notoriously a hot prospect but more often than not isn't a next big thing even though at age 23 all the tools seem to be there. Her potential caps or something are low enough that she rarely becomes a true super duper star.

 

Orange, Derekk_B and the rest might remember AJ Starlight from the 97' draft, a created wrestlers who famously always underperformed in sims. He was the high stamina/athleticism/SQ/looks/charisma archetype I'm talking about, but couldn't seem to turn the corner.

[lazorbeak]

We've already talked about it some but the in-game "next big thing" has less to do with wrestling skills and more to do with a high "destiny" statistic. For example, on my latest SWF game, both Randy and Zimmy Bumfhole are designated "Next Big Things," and the only other NBT is Kid Toma, a guy who starts the game with C- star quality and D- psychology. But the game thinks he could one day carry the company.

 

Conversely, on my prospects page, Toma doesn't even make the top 5: Marc DuBois is #1, then the Bumfholes, then solid but unspectacular guys like James Prudence and Steven Parker (who I like to bring in to fill-out the roster).

 

The thing is those prospects are already good: the game thinks they could very easily plug into a spot higher up the card (I think Valiant was also both a NBT and a prospect in this save but he's in the uppermidcard now) and they would instantly be ready. Kid Toma, on the other hand, might never amount to anything. But the game says he has the potential to be an icon of the sport. Obviously he needs a lot more grooming than say Jay Chord or the Gauge Brothers, but his peak might be even higher.

[Kobe1724]

We've already talked about it some but the in-game "next big thing" has less to do with wrestling skills and more to do with a high "destiny" statistic. For example, on my latest SWF game, both Randy and Zimmy Bumfhole are designated "Next Big Things," and the only other NBT is Kid Toma, a guy who starts the game with C- star quality and D- psychology. But the game thinks he could one day carry the company.

 

Conversely, on my prospects page, Toma doesn't even make the top 5: Marc DuBois is #1, then the Bumfholes, then solid but unspectacular guys like James Prudence and Steven Parker (who I like to bring in to fill-out the roster).

 

The thing is those prospects are already good: the game thinks they could very easily plug into a spot higher up the card (I think Valiant was also both a NBT and a prospect in this save but he's in the uppermidcard now) and they would instantly be ready. Kid Toma, on the other hand, might never amount to anything. But the game says he has the potential to be an icon of the sport. Obviously he needs a lot more grooming than say Jay Chord or the Gauge Brothers, but his peak might be even higher.

 

Sure, but some workers are nbts more than others. What stats are influencing their destiny?

[Bigpapa42]

You're thinking of King of the Ring '96, but yeah. Austin was the best example of "right place, right time" in the history of the world. He wasn't a Next Big Thing, he probably wasn't even a Hot Prospect. Everything fell absolutely perfectly for him.

 

Austin may have been too old to NBT while in the WWF, but he likely would've been one when he was with WCW. A Hot Prospect, at least.

 

I wouldn't say it would have been impossible for him to be a star anywhere else at any other time. Its unlikely he would have hit the heights he did otherwise, but many of the elements were there to be exploited.

 

I would say Mick Foley was as lucky or luckier. I think he's a less likely superstar than Austin was.

 

Bzzzt! Sorry, while the last sentence is correct, I don't think anyone with any sense could watch Austin's work in ECW and see him as anything but a Hot Prospect. Seriously. That was the whole point of him going there after "the fax that changed the fortunes of WWE".

 

Or his time in WCW. There is a good reason the guy held 5 titles there in somewhere around 4-5 years, and was part a really hot tag team.

 

The thing about "Next Big Things" and "Hot Prospects" is that it's practically impossible for an armchair fan to know who has real talent and potential in the ring. I believe Bret Hart said it in his book, to really know if someone is a good worker you have to get in the ring and work with them.

 

I've only skimmed much of this thread, but it seems like a case of over-analyzing things. It's all mathematics. Hot Prospects are workers with High Potential to increase their skills and become great wrestlers. Next Big Things are workers with Awesome Destiny. Potential is fixed, and with the benefit of hindsight we can say "Yes, Shawn Michaels became a great worker, therefore he had great potential when he first started." It's harder to say that with modern day rookies, because, well, we can't see into the future, or judge someone's potential like professional scouts and workers.

 

Destiny, however, is random, so we can't really replicate it.

 

Agreed. Taking what works in game terms and applying it to the real world is difficult. You just cannot know. I've been watching FCW a lot lately and I've realized that trying to analyze the "potential" of these young workers is pretty much impossible. Even guys in the E right now have too many variables... Sure Jack Swagger looks like a potential world champion at the moment, but so did Shelton Benjamin at one point. You just can't know. That doesn't make it any less fun to speculate, but you can never be certain.

[ampulator]

The thing about "Next Big Things" and "Hot Prospects" is that it's practically impossible for an armchair fan to know who has real talent and potential in the ring. I believe Bret Hart said it in his book, to really know if someone is a good worker you have to get in the ring and work with them.

 

I can concede that mostly, but not completely. Although we can't see who's good, we can definitely see who's bad. Therefore, it's not entirely impossible for us to see who's not bad.

 

And, oh yeah, why not push Jacob Jett?

[Self]

And, oh yeah, why not push Jacob Jett?

 

1) Limited time. 90 minute TV Show. 50% Match Ratio. Plenty of people I'm already pushing.

2) No Gimmick. It's a diary game, so I don't just throw guys out there and have one of them win. Workers need character, gimmick, a reason to be liked/disliked. Nothing has clicked for Jett to me. Too generic.

3) I hate his face. I'll explain. Back when I roleplayed as Edd Stone in Ye Olde TCW efed, my main rival used the Jacob Jett picture. I hated him. Perhaps he was being an effective Heel, but to me he seemed like a 15 year old engaging in wish fulfillment. His character was a young, talented, arrogant Heel who didn't need to cheat and always got the girl. It was a pretty good counter-point to my rendition of Edd, but the character bothered me, and I've disliked Jacob Jett ever since.

 

Still, he's a talented chap, so I've hired him and he does jobs on the undercard. I guess you can never say never, there's a chance a couple of years I'll give him a push, but he'll never be the "Big Thing" in my promotion, despite the game calling him my Next one.

[Antithesis]

Interesting discussion.

 

If I were to break down the difference between Hot prospecta nd NBT differently, would it be fair to say a Hot Prospect has the potential to be very popular amongst wrestling fans.

 

A 'Next Big Thing' has the potential to be very popular amongst the mainstream audience.

 

Kind of like the difference between Flair and Hogan in the 80's. Flair carried the NWA, Hogan catapulted the WWF to unheralded levels.

 

of course thats an over simplified comparison, WWF was in New York, media capital of the country. Hogan was a babyface wrapped up in an american flag beating foreign heels and evil doers all while saying his prayers and taking his special 'vitamins'. Flair was a fast talking heel who bragged about being rich and banging hot chicks (and thus probably not suitable programming for little Bobby and Timmy, much less selling toys and such).