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Sting to WWE?


UkWrestleFan

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Although I didn't expect WWE to treat WCW and ECW wrestlers as equals, I expected them to treat them as NEAR-equals. Maybe a just a step below, but not so much that they couldn't be a threat.

 

It was also bad business. Period. I knew quite a few crossover fans that tried to watch both WWF and WCW programming regularly that quit watching WWF out of disgust. I was (WAS) a WWF fan first, WCW fan second, and even I found it disrespectful AND stupid in what he did. I think most of WWE now looks back with more calmness, and probably would say, "Damn, that was stupid and pointless of us to do that".

 

Another matter is, regardless of they were WCW or not, some of them were still good wrestlers. Burying Booker T was an utterly unnecessary and stupid booking move.

 

Agreed. I always thought house shows were kinda there to sell buy rates for Pay-Per-Views, and in order to do that I usually thought house shows helped set up matches first and foremost but also set up wrestlers as viable opponents. Maybe I'm a bit old school in that sense.

 

I have no problem with humour, but fair dinkum, as if people DIDN'T KNOW who Booker was. Or more importantly, as if FANS and WRESTLERS IN THE WWF didn't know who Booker was. If this was someone like 3 Count or someone of that level, yeah, fair enough, but you've basically just buried the last Champion of the #2 promotion.

 

Yes I understand the need to scratch egos, but that was at the expense of business logic.

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Just did a little reading up and yes like I said when the NWA bought out the UWF they did the exact same thing.

 

Now my point is that this has been done in wrestling before and it will happen again. Vince has a nasty habit of not wanting to push anything that either he or his team did not come up with (also he likes to give them new gimmicks to copyright them as well). Terry Taylor would have been just fine coming into the WWF as well Terry Taylor. Instead Vince killed his career by giving him that Red Rooster gimmick.

 

The Invasion thing failed because Vince could not bring himself to push wrestlers from his former competition. Even though they were all under contract for his company and he could have made money off of it.

 

That being said one can not fault Vince for this because, like the NWA before him, he must have thought, Why make the wrestlers from WCW look like they can hang with my guys. For years I have told the fans that the best wrestlers in the world wrestle here and now I am going to make these guys look good.

I know that it is counter productive thinking but it would appear that was along the lines of how he was thinking at the time. Also, who knows what kind of stuff was going on in the locker room. Maybe he felt he could not treat them as equals as his wrestlers would lose respect for him by doing so.

 

I agree with everything you have said, but for the first bolded part. You see, in my estimation it was WCW who sat on the other side of the fence slinging mud, giving away results, and the infamous "Ha! Like that will put you know whats on seats" type comments. It was WCW who did the cheap, petty nonsense. And what did it do? It backfired.

 

In my estimation, WWF started retaliating with the Nacho Man, Huckster and Billionaire Ted things, but they then realised quickly enough that people didn't care for that stuff. They wanted to be entertained, they wanted to be excited, they wanted to dare beyond what wrestling had allowed them to dream. And WWF executed that perfectly, they siezed on a differentiation strategy of ultra creativity, of pushing the bounds, of breaking the rules, and you know what... it worked. They soon realised they didn't need to use Bischoff's petty tactics, they had a formula that worked themselves. In that sense, I don't think they directly buried WCW due to constantly sniping at them, I think they did it by constantly out performing them.

 

The second bolded part is what I hoped did happen, that for chemistry, for balance, for control backstage, WCW stuffed itself up by being morons and got treated accordingly, against the wishes of McMahon.

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Also the NWA was wrong to bury the UWF. Period. What they did doesn't justify what WWE did.

 

If I punched someone in the face because I felt like it, it doesn't mean it was a good thing to do. And you certainly can't use THAT to justify YOU punching someone in face because you felt like it, either.

 

Second, maybe they should have buried Steve Austin. He was in WCW. Chris Jericho? He was in WCW! Bury him as well! The Radicalz? Bury the hell out of them too! Vince seems to had been selective about who buried. If you were in WWE before WWE bought WCW, you were safe from being buried. It was his way saying, "screw you".

 

It's a stupid logic. I would understand if Vince didn't PUSH WCW wrestlers or didn't even HIRE them in the first place. It's his goddamn right to do so, if he bought out the company.

 

But he did HIRE them. And he DID NOT need to BURY THEM. Of all things people defend Vince on, they need to defend on the Invasion.

 

If he didn't like what he saw, he didn't need to hire any of them. Why pay them money just to bury them? The only reason was too soothe his ego. "I won, sucka!!!" He did against his own fan's wishes, against WCW's fans wishes, against ECW fan's wishes, and against business sense.

 

As for the locker room crap, was Booker T a locker room cancer? Can anyone say Rob Van Dam was a pain in the butt? If anything, anyone that was truly hard to deal with were gone pretty fast. Brian Adams. Scott Hall. Bryan Clark. Kevin Nash. Buff Bagwell. Gone.

 

Now, I want to point one more thing. You can EXPLAIN why Vince did it. That's not an issue. But an EXPLANATION for why he did it is NOT a JUSTIFICATION for what he did. I perfectly understood why he did it. I still don't think it justifies what he did. And I don't think anyone has ever given good justification for what he did either. It was like the justifications for why the Boogeyman could have been big. You just couldn't justify it.

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As for the locker room crap, was Booker T a locker room cancer? Can anyone say Rob Van Dam was a pain in the butt? If anything, anyone that was truly hard to deal with were gone pretty fast. Brian Adams. Scott Hall. Bryan Clark. Kevin Nash. Buff Bagwell. Gone.

 

ampulator, if this was directed at what I said I think you either read what I wrote wrong. Or I just did not write clearly what I meant (which could be the case as I am often known to do that).

 

What I meant about the locker room was, maybe Vince did not feel right pushing all of these guys from another company because he felt that it would tick off the people who were already in his locker room. You know the guys who worked for him during the Monday Night Wars.

 

He might have thought if I push Booker (using him as an example), maybe that will upset the Undertaker (using him as an example) because Booker had been in WCW for such a long time and now he is coming over here and getting a big push.

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I understand that. But maybe he didn't have to push Booker T. At least, not immediately. That's not my issue. My issue was they BURIED him. Also, Chris Jericho got a huge when he came in the WWE. Should Vince have not pushed him out of fear for angering his locker room? Perhaps. But that didn't stop him from giving him a good push. Or maybe he shouldn't have pushed the Radicalz when they came in. But he did.

 

It had nothing to do with pushing or not pushing WCW wrestlers that didn't make the jump before WCW fell, and more with WCW wrestlers being buried when WWF bought WCW out. It's certainly wasn't about how WWF's locker room felt either, because a lot of WWF wrestlers were friends with some of the WCW and ECW wrestlers. If it was about "feelings", then I doubt WWF wrestlers liked seeing their friends buried.

 

If it was about "losing their spot" on the roster, well, once WWF bought WCW out, it wasn't just WCW wrestlers that could lose their jobs or spots, it was also WWF wrestlers that could lose their spots and jobs as well. He won. He could (and did eventually and over time) let some of the WWF wrestlers go, and/or depushed them because he believed he didn't need them anymore.

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I think its a bit unfair to say that Booker T was buried..

 

he only rose to the top of WCW after all the 'mega stars of the 90s' were booted out.. Booker became the top face in WCW, because Goldberg, Sting, Hogan, Savage, Flair, etc were all either gone, or had been made to look useless (in the case of Flair and Goldberg)

 

he came in during the Invasion and hung with Austin, Angle and Rock for months.. I doubt if he had come in under different circumstances that he wouldve been vaulted into an angle with those guys.. he wouldve been at the IC Title level..

 

and even after Survivor Series he continued to feud with Austin.. sure it was just to keep Austin away from the title and bridge the gap before the nWo came in..

 

yes he took a backseat when the nWo came in - but that wouldve happened in WCW as well.. they were much bigger stars..

 

he was then built up to feud with Evolution and Triple H - facing him at Wrestlemania for the World Title.. he then teamed with HBK and Nash..

 

sure he wasnt the headline name on all the shows.. but if you expected him to be, you were gonna be disappointed anyway..

 

the only point between his 2001 debut and the Wrestlemania match with Triple H that he was buried, was actually at Wrestlemania when Triple H made him look like a piece of ****.. but then he was doing that to everyone in 2003 anyway..

 

Booker T was hardly BURIED as we all seem to be shouting..

 

 

 

oh, and a side note for whoever mentioned these names Mick Foley, Triple H, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, the Giant, Eddie Guerrero joining the Alliance..

 

Foley has retired.. Triple H and Benoit were both out with long term injuries.. and Eddie was in rehab for much of 2001.. Jericho and Big Show joined WCW as well as Austin and Angle wouldve stacked the deck too much in favour of the Alliance.. for me anyway..

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Trist has nailed it for me. There's pride and there's business and I think Vince McMahon's ego cost him a lot of money. Not my problem, he made the choice but he was extremely dumb about it.

 

Jericho and Big Show joined WCW as well as Austin and Angle wouldve stacked the deck too much in favour of the Alliance.. for me anyway..

 

Here's the point... Austin and Angle joining made no sense creatively. They used the storyline as a means to establish their own talent as top heels or faces and denied the Alliance talent the opportunity to get over.

 

I honestly believe the model that panix, keefy and I dreamt up would have been best for McMahon's wallet.

 

At the big, blow-off elimination match at Survivor Series, it should come down to the two main guys (Rock and Austin in real life but I still can't figure out which "genius" decided to align Austin with the company he spent six months of his life ripping apart in shoot promos :rolleyes: - they fired him and nearly killed his career. Nonsense booking). Anyhow, regardless of who shoukda have been in the ring for the alliance, Jericho runs out grabs the title belt when the ref is down and nails Rock. The Alliance pick up the victory.

 

Okay, so... the WWF lost. So what?! They have a full-proof excuse... it wasn't decided fairly.

 

This scenario would enable you to set up three brands... exactly like they currently have but, instead, make the three brands WWE, WCW and ECW.

 

Then, McMahon persuades all of the talent he can to rejoin their old promotions and, essebtially, have them run as separate entities. Keep Bischoff in charge of WCW and Heyman in charge of ECW (just keep close tabs on their performance and give them the yay or nay on certain aspects).

 

If that happened, the war wouldn't have died. They could have kept the competition alive and boosted buy rates./ All three "promotions" would be vying for top spot; only difference would be that all profits went to Vince. Plus, if anyone actually respected kayfabe enough, it would be possible to keep the business arrangements secret and just let the fans guess as to what was going on.

 

That would have been the best situation for everyone. Egoes stood in the way because Vince didn't want WWF to lose.

 

But that's pointless, if you're a WWF fan you wouldn't stop watching their programming because they got screwed out of a big inter-promotional match. If all your favourite wrestlers are still there, you'll watch just as intently... you just might check out WCW and ECW too to see the consequences.

 

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Here's the point... Austin and Angle joining made no sense creatively. They used the storyline as a means to establish their own talent as top heels or faces and denied the Alliance talent the opportunity to get over.

 

oh definately, it made absolutely no sense at all..

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ampulator, if this was directed at what I said I think you either read what I wrote wrong. Or I just did not write clearly what I meant (which could be the case as I am often known to do that).

 

What I meant about the locker room was, maybe Vince did not feel right pushing all of these guys from another company because he felt that it would tick off the people who were already in his locker room. You know the guys who worked for him during the Monday Night Wars.

 

He might have thought if I push Booker (using him as an example), maybe that will upset the Undertaker (using him as an example) because Booker had been in WCW for such a long time and now he is coming over here and getting a big push.

 

 

I want to get into this post. This is probably not an issue at all. Guys jumped ship from company to company and were always treated as stars. Vince is the only one who has the fetish with dismantling other promotion's stars. He didn't need to make them superstars right away, but Chris Benoit was pushed immediately upon joining WWF. Chris Jericho same way. Big Show same way. He buried WCW/Alliance to gloat. He was slapping WCW fans in the face by having Stephanie and Shane "owning WCW" and then bringing in Austin to lead WCW because nobody else in that worthless promotion was worth a damn and they couldn't possibly main event for him.

 

Oh looky here, WWF is being invaded by WCW! Oh no! Who's in charge of them? The son and daughter of the WWF owner and two of the WWF's biggest stars of course! Who else would it be? Some WCW scrub?

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I quite liked the invasion angle, who doesn't like one of the most important people in the wrestling world screwing up the golden opportunity he had right in front of him.

 

As a WCW fan I hated it because it totally ended the WCW legacy.

 

It worked in that way though and I think people fail to see that. The invasion angle did exactly what Vince wanted it to do. Bury WCW, gloat, stomp on their graves, thump his chest, etc. The Invasion angle was Vince McMahon's version of a dog climbing on to the back of another dog and humping it until it submits. He wanted everyone to know that WCW was his...

 

Anyway, I never want Sting in WWE. Let the Franchise, the real Franchise, stay true to the legacy of WCW.

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Please tell me that wasn't a shot at Douglas. That would make me a sad panda :(.

 

Quote The Raven

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Not really. It was a shot at Shane Douglas being called The Franchise when he was in WCW. It didn't make any sense. Sting was the WCW Franchise. He's the only one who was there for it all.

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Not really. It was a shot at Shane Douglas being called The Franchise when he was in WCW. It didn't make any sense. Sting was the WCW Franchise. He's the only one who was there for it all.

 

Aah, fair shout.

 

Douglas was only ever really important to ECW but, man, when he was there, he was as entertaining as anyone I've ever watched.

 

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As a WCW fan I hated it because it totally ended the WCW legacy.

 

It worked in that way though and I think people fail to see that. The invasion angle did exactly what Vince wanted it to do. Bury WCW, gloat, stomp on their graves, thump his chest, etc. The Invasion angle was Vince McMahon's version of a dog climbing on to the back of another dog and humping it until it submits. He wanted everyone to know that WCW was his...

 

Anyway, I never want Sting in WWE. Let the Franchise, the real Franchise, stay true to the legacy of WCW.

You know, I wouldn't mind see Sting in the WWE, but if Sting were to be in WWE, the biggest issue is the road schedule. He would probably demand a road schedule similar to Undertaker's at worst, or like Shawn's at best.

 

To put this into perspective for those who might not know, basically wrestlers attend their main show AND house shows. I have no idea how many house shows they do a week, but from what I heard, it's around 4-5 days a week that they work. For a guy like Shawn Michaels, he works the main show, and gets break after a HUGE PPV match. Undertaker does angles on his main show (sometimes) and does the PPV.

 

Note that, I'm not saying a reduced schedule means they are lazy. On the contrary, both of them are in their 40's, and I would rather have them wrestle that one big match every once in a while, then to have to wear down and not do as well.

 

I also want to point out that I doubt any other Star, including Triple H, has a reduced schedule like those. Triple H works house shows. It's not something Vince gives easily.

 

If Sting were to come back, Vince might give him a HBK-style schedule. Is that what Sting wants? I think he might want an Undertaker-style schedule, which I doubt Vince would give. To put this another way, I believe Vince would give Kurt Angle a HBK-style schedule, but he will probably not give an Undertaker-style schedule.

 

Another issue is Creative Control. I doubt Sting is going to do anything without it (and I doubt Vince would be willing to give it).

 

On top of that, Sting doesn't have any motivation to do so. If he wanted to do it, I bet he could try to get in, and it wouldn't be hard.

 

Look at the Chris Masters. He was fired, but he immediately tried to get back in. And, as it turned out, if you try, unless WWE is adamantly against hiring you again, it's not hard as it looks.

 

As for Sting not being used well, the situation is not the same as it was before. Vince McMahon is more greedy now than he is vindictive. I doubt Vince McMahon can pass up an offer from Sting, if Sting REALLY wanted to work for the WWE.

 

Do I want Sting to have a match in the WWE? I don't know. I mean, I don't have any real dream matches I want to see Sting work against.

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I really love that storyline nevermore, sold it perfectly. Everything is set up... everything is right.

 

The thing is, on that last Nitro/Raw simulcast, Vince McMahon on RAW told the wrestling fans words to the effect of he go down to Panama City or wherever the last Nitro was and fire them all, they could do that, or... and he said words to the effect that the WWE had the knowledge of how to make a promotion work.

 

This was his great opportunity in my view. To rebuild it. To reshape it. To leave both WCW and ECW with their own characters, but under his direct supervision. He could have made both relevant again. What a challenge, and then, what a legacy, financially and morally. Unfortunately he did neither. The thing is, I think if he had have restored both WCW and ECW, along with the WWF at the time, I struggle to see how for instance someone like TNA could get to the level they currently sit at. The reason I say that is there are different market positions in any given market, and for most of the 90s ECW/WCW/WWF consumed most of the market because they had differentiation in their products. What ended up happening is that the WWE constricted itself market wise by producing similar theme brands with little leverage, until the introduction of ECW which I think has been more or less a breeding ground rather than anything or any worth anyway, it allowed ROH to rise because people love mad wrestling and mad spots (like they did with WCW's midcards and WCW luchas), and TNA because people love a manaiacal crazed look at wrestling... of course they try to imitate ECW to a degree with some of their hardcore action, but this little edge of theres would have been crushed by the continued resurgence of the ECW brand under Heyman under McMahon.

 

I don't know what went wrong, I really don't. Could the WWE not get media rights to broadcast all three groups? I mean even from a branding perspective, its easy to lose sight of who is RAW, who is SmackDown!, who belongs to who so when they have their annual brand wars because its so marginalised no one really seems to see the true threat. They see it as WWE v WWE, nothing more, nothing less. The conflict seems less real. WCW and ECW and WWE, what could be more heated than that? And you could control it... ALL!? What an opportunity, what a golden goose error. On the topic of Sting, while the Booker T comment was probably more petulence and schoolboy comedy at best, and probably wasn't thought to have consequences, it obviously did with Sting. And he was one bloke who could have made it all work. So again, I ask the question, was it worth it? I don't think it was. Business is business, the WWE is responsible to stakeholders and isn't a publically listed company? You could argue I guess that there's a bit of negligence to the shareholders in not maximising profitability by making more of the WCW and ECW brands.

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Even if he did do that we probably would have seen the rise of a TNA/ROH.

 

Because their would still have to be a place where other wrestlers would work (those that McMahon did not want to work with) on a major platform.

 

I mean could you really see Jeff Jarrett back working in the USWA? Eventually someone would have come along and opened up a rival promotion.

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I agree, of course there's other 'outposts'. But significant ones? You can only grab market share that is relevant and available, and if you've covered off three or four key points of differentiation and have a natural monopoly by way of being first to cement your position, it makes it extremely tough for anyone else to be relevant in the market.
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I may be wrong, but Im sure there were heavy rumours that Vince was trying to get an extra show on TNN for WCW.. In fact Im almost certain that was the (or one of the) original plans.. and when that didn't succeed and the fact Vince had zero confidence in any of the WCW guys to main event (on their own) - we got the watered down, WWF-heavy Invasion angle..
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Even if he did do that we probably would have seen the rise of a TNA/ROH.

 

Because their would still have to be a place where other wrestlers would work (those that McMahon did not want to work with) on a major platform.

 

I mean could you really see Jeff Jarrett back working in the USWA? Eventually someone would have come along and opened up a rival promotion.

 

First off, I wouldn't consider TNA a rival promotion. Another promotion? Of course. A rival? No. A rival promotion would mean that Vince McMahon would have mercilessly raided it to oblivion. He hasn't done that, because TNA doesn't quite want to be a rival promotion. An alternative, yes. Rival? No. That would kill TNA, because it would mean Vince would raid them mercilessly.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider ECW necessarily a rival promotion during the Monday Wars, between them and WWF. It's not because I thought ECW was below WWF, but it's because Vince didn't much talent raiding compared to WCW, on ECW.

 

There was also the thing when WCW main evented Raw and was badly received despite being the absolute cream of the crop; Booker T and Buff Bagwell.

 

First, Buff Bagwell is NOT the cream of the crop of WCW. Second, as someone else said earlier, Booker T wasn't exactly the most well-known WCW worker outside of WCW. They needed Sting, Ric Flair, and Scott Hall, but WWE didn't want to buy their contracts at the time. For me, it would be from Ric Flair, Sting, Scott Hall, DDP, THEN Booker T. (Hogan, Nash, and Steiner, aren't exactly in performance shape at this time. Not worth getting them).

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(Hogan, Nash, and Steiner, aren't exactly in performance shape at this time. Not worth getting them).

 

Whereas a year later, when Hogan won the title, and 2 years later, when Nash and Steiner were competing for it, shows that they vastly improved with time? :D

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