The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[iruleall15]

AJ Styles can easily be the new Daniel Bryan, the guy both hardcore and casual fans like.

 

AJ has no business winning the title... Had this been anyone other than Reigns you wouldnt care. Stop with the obsession of Reigns. Its beyond weird now.

[Warhawk8492]

AJ has no business winning the title... Had this been anyone other than Reigns you wouldnt care. Stop with the obsession of Reigns. Its beyond weird now.

 

I would want AJ Styles to win the title regardless of who he was facing for it. He deserves it.

[RKOwnage]

That was a legit good Raw from start to finish.

 

No Sasha in sight but Becky at least got a Raw Fallout video roasting Emma:

 

 

"I'm not the one who steals things."

[kingjames]

AJ Styles can easily be the new Daniel Bryan, the guy both hardcore and casual fans like.

 

I think that's the thing - he already *is* that guy, to an extent. I mean, D-Bry was a once-in-a-lifetime, perfect time and place phenomenon. I would argue WWE's attempt to replicate that phenomenon with Roman Reigns is one of the major issues that soured people on Reigns. Is AJ really going to get that much more popular with the belt than he is right now? I do think Roman with the belt and an attitude has an opportunity to develop into a top-drawing heel, transforming the X-Pac heat he's been getting into real, nuclear heat that is increasingly difficult for performers to draw in a post-kayfabe world.

 

At this moment in time, I think it is Reigns who has the potential for exponential growth. A solid heel run as the arrogant heel champ that no one can seem to get the belt off might define Reigns in a way that it propels him for another decade. AJ winning is…well, AJ winning. Which is nice, but then what? What story do you tell then? And is it worth tanking what could be a defining heel run for a worker you'll have for another decade or two, who, if you handle him correctly at this pivotal moment, has the potential to draw serious heat and serious money for years to come? If I am the 'E right now, I want to see if I can create a heel main eventer that will be around for WrestleMania 42, as opposed to whatever short term bump an AJ run might give me right now.

[Teh_Showtime]

The only person who should even sniff the title aside from Reigns is the returning Rollins. Not having Seth as a face challenge Roman would be one of their bigger mistakes in quite a while.

 

The entire reason the Reigns situation got so bad in the first place is because they got gunshy about him multiple times which hurt his credibility with the casual fans on top of the hate he was already generating. If you're going to commit to someone, actually go full force and do it properly.

[AfRoMaN36]

I just caught RAW on Hulu. I must say the show was MUCH better than anything I've seen in months. I mean there is a marked difference from literally two weeks ago. I have no idea what must have changed. Is Hunter getting more say in the back? Is Shane? Or did Vince finally come to his senses? Whatever it is, it made me tweet @WWE asking them to keep moving in this direction. Recently whenever I have decided to torture myself while watching an episode of RAW, it's always been while doing something else. Today my full attention was on the show. Bravo.

 

Some random thoughts:

 

1. Roman is miles better as an arrogant d-bag. It just feels sincere for him. I can see a slow burn heel turn happening here. But I can also see this new persona getting over in time.

 

2. The focus on Owens, Styles and Zayn is a breath of fresh air. The show was centered around the future for a change and made these guys seem like the centerpieces of the company.

 

3. Sheamus' "Are you not entertained?!" while beating down Roman? I marked.

 

4. No authority and they were certainly not missed. Shane keeps it short, to the point and bothers to put over midcard talent between segments instead of droning for twenty minutes about how he's that damn good. His run down of the card actually made me want to watch the show, rather than simply knowing what the main event will be and oh, by the way here's some other stuff.

 

5. Cesaro is finally being pushed and it even looks like he's being given a character. If the company is serious about this new direction, then there is no doubt he beats Miz at Payback.

 

6. Bullet Clubs debut was perfect. Almost nWo-esque. Very excited to see where they will factor in to this tag team tournament.

[K-Nection]

Very good RAW as I just caught it last night! I'm a little sad Zack Ryder's push was halted but that was the only complaint I took away from this. The guys has the ability to draw and can get the crowd behind him. I don't see why they don't do more with the guy.

[Jaysin]

Very good RAW as I just caught it last night! I'm a little sad Zack Ryder's push was halted but that was the only complaint I took away from this. The guys has the ability to draw and can get the crowd behind him. I don't see why they don't do more with the guy.

 

Cause he looks like a goof

 

I'm a huge Ryder fan. I have been since I saw him and Hawkins debut as the Major Brothers. I've always liked Hawkins more, but they've always been underrated.

[kingjames]

Very good RAW as I just caught it last night! I'm a little sad Zack Ryder's push was halted but that was the only complaint I took away from this. The guys has the ability to draw and can get the crowd behind him. I don't see why they don't do more with the guy.

 

Maybe they aren't halting his push entirely, but just the push within the singles division? Perhaps this experience where he got screwed by the darn Numbers Game will lead to him deciding he needs someone, a bro, if you weeeeell, to watch his back. A bro who doesn't get hyped, but stays hyped? Given what appears to be a possible investment in the tag team scene with this tournament, the Hype Bros could be a decent addition to the division.

 

Either that, or Ryder got a giant thank you present at Mania for staying around, putting dudes over, and helping develop talent in NXT, while also allowing midcard gatekeeper extraordinaire The Miz to have a path to the belt that shines up his heel credentials, while not damaging the push of Kevin Owens or Sami Zayn as they leave the IC belt behind and pursue their personal, eternal vendetta.

[Rone Rivendale]

Yes AJ is great, he has been great for over a decade.

 

But no, we don't need AJ winning the World Title FOUR MONTHS after his debut in the WWE.

[Blackman]

"I'm not the one who steals things."

 

The Edge and Christian show also had a sick steal-joke. God I love that show. It's legit funny (not always, but what show apart from South Park/Simpsons/etc can claim that?).

[Jaysin]

Simpsons stopped being funny 16 years ago.

[St. Templar]

As a long-time Simpsons and South Park fan (yes, I'm very old), not even I will claim they're always funny. But, I digress...

 

However, I will say the Edge and Christian Show that Totally Reeks of Awesomeness (or the EACSTTROA ) is an absolute jewel and, along with NXT, is worth the $9.99 monthly investment for the WWE Network.

 

St. T

[Blackman]

Just now watched the Mania preshow and good God how terribly awkward was Eva Marie. Just every time she got involved it came off as an awkward thing in and of itself, both the moves she pulled and the motions and interactions. She was even hanging on the ropes like a constipated person, pulling these weird faces and clapping her hands like a toddler high on chocolate milk. Nikki even had to guide her for the collective raised hands moment post-match. If there was a "retarded cousin" gimmick she'd fit that perfectly. Good of her to hang in there despite the negativity, but sometimes you have to draw conclusions that you're not made for this business. At least not in this way. Just use her for that TV show and promos (like Fastlane, where she was excellent). She's a model and she should just be that. Look at Lana. Her first match, and though it wasn't a great performance in any way she came off completely different. Her demeanor was way better, so she promises to be a decent worker someday if they stick with it (though I think she should stick with her excellent manager gig).

 

I don't want to break her down, but the moments when she shines are those where she's all alone and the spotlights are on her. It's just the way it is.

[kingjames]

NXT seems to be at a place right now, while they're airing stuff filmed in Dallas, kind of in a holding pattern, but I thought this week's show was still pretty solid overall. Can I just say I really liked Tye Dillenger's work in his match against Nakamura? He's got fantastic expressions, he's playing the crowd, reacting to the crowd in real time. His freak out to the "HE'S ELEVEN" chant was priceless. Plus, he's getting to a point where he can cut a pretty decent egomaniac heel promo. Of all the people to start getting impressed by in NXT, I have to say Dillenger would not have been my first choice, but man, he was on point this week.

[lazorbeak]

Just now watched the Mania preshow and good God how terribly awkward was Eva Marie. Just every time she got involved it came off as an awkward thing in and of itself, both the moves she pulled and the motions and interactions. She was even hanging on the ropes like a constipated person, pulling these weird faces and clapping her hands like a toddler high on chocolate milk. Nikki even had to guide her for the collective raised hands moment post-match. If there was a "retarded cousin" gimmick she'd fit that perfectly. Good of her to hang in there despite the negativity, but sometimes you have to draw conclusions that you're not made for this business. At least not in this way. Just use her for that TV show and promos (like Fastlane, where she was excellent). She's a model and she should just be that. Look at Lana. Her first match, and though it wasn't a great performance in any way she came off completely different. Her demeanor was way better, so she promises to be a decent worker someday if they stick with it (though I think she should stick with her excellent manager gig).

 

I don't want to break her down, but the moments when she shines are those where she's all alone and the spotlights are on her. It's just the way it is.

 

I think you may be overreacting. She was perfectly cromulent in a pretty decent throwaway match. Obviously she'll never be a great worker, but she's actually over.

[iruleall15]

I think you may be overreacting. She was perfectly cromulent in a pretty decent throwaway match. Obviously she'll never be a great worker, but she's actually over.

 

 

She has go away heat.... Not heel heat. Theres a difference

[iruleall15]

Rewatching NXT. What a great show. Corey Graves is gold as a commentator. He gives an MMA feel when a match finishes like the Bayley/Asuka match. Him and Matt Striker could be commentary gold together

[Rickymex]

She has go away heat.... Not heel heat. Theres a difference

 

I disagree. People legitimately hate Eva and NXT has been using her perfectly as the biggest heel on the roster. Pairing her with Nia Jax was a brilliant move as by having Nia save her and work as her muscle Nia is associated with Eva in the eyes of the fans and slowly but surely builds up independent heat.

 

What exactly is the difference between the two heats and how do you determine it? Do you poll the crowd? Or does she have go away heat with you and heel heat with the crowd? I'm pretty sure there's no real answer considering wrestling is different for everyone.

[iruleall15]

I disagree. People legitimately hate Eva and NXT has been using her perfectly as the biggest heel on the roster. Pairing her with Nia Jax was a brilliant move as by having Nia save her and work as her muscle Nia is associated with Eva in the eyes of the fans and slowly but surely builds up independent heat.

 

What exactly is the difference between the two heats and how do you determine it? Do you poll the crowd? Or does she have go away heat with you and heel heat with the crowd? I'm pretty sure there's no real answer considering wrestling is different for everyone.

 

You're joking right? I guess the extreme "YOU CANT WRESTLE" chants doesnt really make a point. No one wants her in the company. She cant wrestle. You sure you are watching the same channel?

[Blackman]

You're joking right? I guess the extreme "YOU CANT WRESTLE" chants doesnt really make a point. No one wants her in the company. She cant wrestle. You sure you are watching the same channel?

 

I get the same vibe. I'm not going to say that EvaMarie taking a finisher (from Summer nota bene) was one of the top5 pops of Mania, but it was the biggest pop of the match she was involved in, other than Nikki coming in to celebrate (which is arguably a post-match segment). It shouldn't have been.

 

The pairing with Jax is good and somehow they fit reasonably well. But like mentioned before, it's not heel heat like the Miz gets for instance.

 

And why was she even in that team, being a heel? Just so they could call the other team B.A.D and blonde? Cute.

 

Anyhow, sorry for bringing this up...again. We shouldn't be discussing this. Better to discuss Dillinger, who was indeed excellent this week.

[crownsy]

I think you may be overreacting. She was perfectly cromulent in a pretty decent throwaway match. Obviously she'll never be a great worker, but she's actually over.

 

With who is she over, other than the Southern region of Vince's body?

 

She has Nuclear go away heat, haven't seen anything like it since x-pac's last days. That's not "being over" with anyone.

[K-Nection]

To switch gears from the current conversation....I really think WWE is missing the boat with Ryder again....

 

[kingjames]

Eva Marie is...an odd case for me.

 

Personally, and I seem to be in the majority for this, her in-ring performance lacks fluidity. It's the difference between someone performing a (What a!) maneuver in the ring, and someone actively trying to perform a maneuver in the ring. I don't think she's hurt anyone through her sloppiness, which for me is an even greater sin than just sloppiness.

 

Wrestling is in a really weird place, in terms of faces and heels. I mean, there are definitely cases of faces who have gained the ire, usually through over-exposure/staleness/poor booking, of at least segments of the fandom to the point where they get booed no matter who they're facing. And then you've got heels who are going to get cheered because they have high levels of technical skills, really great charisma, or both, which segments of the audience will cheer no matter what they say or do.

 

Kevin Owens is one for me. In terms of his character, he's pretty thoroughly despicable. He's an arrogant blowhard who justifies his complete lack of scruples by invoking his children. He's needlessly rude, acts like he's better than everyone else - though there's an argument to be made that it's overcompensating for an inferiority complex - and he's a hypocrite. But he's really, REALLY good at getting that character across. He's able to do things we don't expect from people of his size and body type. He seems to be able to tell good stories in the ring with just about anybody. And we know the man, Kevin Steen, has been working his whole adult life and not given up despite having been overlooked because of his non-traditional body type.

 

So Owens gets pops. He gets legitimately excited, happy to see you, we want you to win face pops. He doesn't get it from all of the audience, but he gets it from a sizeable part. And unless he's fighting someone who this segment likes just as much, like Sami Zayn, the face/heel alignment gets totally thrown out of whack. Because we're operating in the post-kayfabe era, Kevin Owens gets cheered by a subset of the audience in almost all cases no matter what he does because he is "good at his job".

 

But as a heel, isn't getting people to hate you, to not cheer you, to want to see you lose and be humiliated, being "good at your job"? I think this one of the trickiest parts of telling stories in professional wrestling today. Now, Owens has shown he can still get those reactions because I really do think he is very good at his job - the worked shoot where he called NXT fans "the John Cena of wrestling fans" is, I think, an example of how to get legit heel heat in a post-kayfabe world.

 

But, how many smarks are going to boo Damian Sandow if he ever (he won't) gets a massive heel push? What could he possibly do, in character, that would overcome the "he's underused" (he is, though I suspect I might disagree with some to the extent), internet darling status? And what heel is going to not get at least an audible face pop for attacking John Cena? What could Cena ever do to not get that reaction? Cena could take a bullet for a child cancer patient, for real (I suppose "shoot" is super appropriate in this case), and when he came back you'd still have people telling him how much he sucks. You could bring these people to his death bed (unless his Wolverine healing factor means he cannot die) and they'd tell him to his face as he lay dying how much he sucks and chant "Let's go cancer!"

 

I guess in my rambling, I wonder if X-Pac Heat isn't one of the few sources of heat that we, as fans, have left bookers to work with? I mean, the "you can't wrestle, get off my screen" heat of Eva Marie is absolutely undoubtable. But if you get a crowd like NXT, who definitely lean smark heavy, and then you take someone who they feel is "undeserving" and only got anything because of their looks, not their talent or drive (which I think are both entirely, maybe easily arguable points with Eva Marie)? And then you consciously choose to book a story where it looks like she's getting opportunities she doesn't deserve for those reasons, particularly because representatives of the evil, anti-"good wrestling" corporate overlords are looking to bespoil the paradise of NXT with their crossover reality shows?

 

I think that's genius. I think it's not a story you can tell all that often (the Cornette rule of how long before you can run an angle again comes to mind) without, in reality, doing what you're kayfabe doing. But I think whether it "works" or not is entirely depending upon how you measure "works". Those NXT fans were legit LIVID that Eva Marie got a title shot. They went non-ironically ballistic about how that match had a main roster referee, screwjob in the back of their mind. Every time Eva Marie got a near-fall they were honestly terrified that she would win. And when Bayley put her away, they exalted in her triumph.

 

If the measure of professional wrestling is telling a story that engages people, then I think Eva Marie's NXT work became, in the context of the audience of NXT and though conscious choices made to exploit her X-Pac Heat and whatever talent she may possess, a success. I don't think you can work that same story with main roster talent quite as well. I don't know what you do with Eva Marie now. But on a single angle basis, I think NXT took what they had with Eva Marie and got a ton of mileage out of a worker with very limited skills. And I think that's brilliant booking. You can argue how much credit Eva Marie deserves for that brilliance, but I think it was the perfect way to use her.

[Rickymex]

You're joking right? I guess the extreme "YOU CANT WRESTLE" chants doesnt really make a point. No one wants her in the company. She cant wrestle. You sure you are watching the same channel?

 

John Cena himself get's "You Can't Wrestle" chants. That chant means nothing. Eva has been perfectly booked in NXT from her scaring the audience after elimination Asuka to her title match against Bayley. I was sour on her when she came to NXT but she has put in the work and the writers have made sure to put her in roles that take advantage of the Total Divas hate she has accumulated. She's not at the level of Becky Lynch or Sasha Banks but she's able to fill her role as a hate magnet.