The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Mootinie]

From this week's Wrestling Observer:

 

The positives WWE has right now is that they are really the only game in town to all but a tiny percentage of a wrestling fan base. But in being the only game in town, the popularity of pro wrestling is declining, even as some media sources in recent weeks have made the laughable statements that it is the most popular of any period in history, being manipulated by irrelevant numbers. At the same time, to its most loyal audience, the product is hot when it comes to the big shows, which seems to be a worldwide pattern, since it’s the same thing that is going on with CMLL and AAA in Mexico and with New Japan. You could also argue that boxing, UFC and Bellator fall into this pattern. For the big events, such as WrestleMania and SummerSlam this year, WWE can charge far more than ever before, and be more successful from a live gate perspective. And even with the ratings decline, house shows have held up, although so far in September, the numbers have been, in the words of Big Cass, SAWFT.

 

The issues are stated weekly and endlessly. The three hours isn’t going to change. The revenue difference, even when you erode overall interest with it, and long-term contracts in place, lock WWE into that.

 

However, the show can change its predictable pattern. The opening interview segment to set up the show inherently isn’t bad, but it would be better most weeks with half the time. The interviews, with the exception of the elite few, need an overhaul. For one, the verbiage feels overly scripted and when it does, whatever goal or message is lost. The disaster of the Ryback promos the past two weeks may in some fault be his due to delivery, and perhaps somebody like Michael Hayes or Roddy Piper in their primes could have taken the wording he was given and pulled it off, but he is not them. The constant buzzwords may read great in a marketing textbook, but they don’t connect with the audience and are not effective in the goals of the interview, which is to generate more interest in the program.

 

What’s weird is, and there are always exceptions, but as a general rule, the promos, both believability and effectiveness, of wrestlers in the non-scripted generation blow the current generation out of the water. Having seen this generation’s guys outside the scripted environment, while not all are great, almost all are better unscripted.

 

There are also issues of context. Throwing out matches, even with big names and being of good quality, with no importance, has its limitations. My turn, your turn booking has created the generation of midcarders. Sting, a midcarder with some natural charisma, became an overnight superstar because he went to a 45 minute draw with Ric Flair on television. But the key was the follow-up. Had Flair then beaten Sting once each of the next two months on television, with a submission in the third match, Sting would have never been the enduring star he was. Similarly, if Undertaker, or Ultimate Warrior lost half the time on television in their first year, they’d have never gotten out of the blocks. Yet, even with Kevin Owens, a guy they were trying to make fast and the most promising talker in developmental, they gave him the big win first, and figured since they gave him that win, they could beat him constantly. So instead of being a top tier superstar, he joins the fun sea of very talented mid-carders, guys that fans know, think of as stars, have good matches, but their ability to move the needle is minimized.

 

Even though it didn’t work, the creation of records like with Nikki Bella’s streak, put more emphasis on the Divas title than any time in recent memory. The Twin Magic screwjob finish which is fine in certain situations, but somewhat out of context given the type of emphasis on the match, did make sense to build the rematch on the PPV. But the follow-up has to be strong. This isn’t pure sport and shouldn’t be booked like sport. But within its context, it should have meaning. The idea that we’re entertainment and anything goes is fine, but when something isn’t working, it needs to be looked at as to why. The key right now is the ability to create interest and an emotional response. If things are presented as if they don’t matter, in almost every case, they won’t. If they don’t matter to the participant, it’s hard for them to matter to the fan. One of the reasons real sports work is the ramifications, the exhilaration of the win, the disappointment of the loss, and even more, the follow-up. The loser creates a story as to either the mistakes he’s made, what he’s learned and how he’ll change things, or, if it is legitimate based on what happens, blames an outside party for derailing his upward mobility. When upward mobility doesn’t exist, and the context of wins and losses don’t matter, you lose a key interest element.

 

But you also need variety in a three-hour show. That is, very different personas, which WWE somewhat has, and a wide variety of styles, which WWE has less of than many other wrestling companies with far less resources. But all of those are minor points.

 

The key is making larger-than-life superstars. Whether it’s Bruno Sammartino and Superstar Graham, or Dusty Rhodes, or Hulk Hogan, or Steve Austin and The Rock, or Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Antonio Inoki, Perro Aguayo, Konnan, Mistico, or Ali, Mayweather, Leonard, or today’s Rousey and McGregor, the boom periods are either created by technological changes or larger-than-life superstars. More then boxing or MMA, pro wrestling has more ability to create them, since they can fully script their storylines and control all their outcomes to maximum benefit. But they haven’t, and for whatever reason, have dropped the ball frequently when the seeds of momentum are there because of having pigeon-holed themselves into a mentality that while certain guys are fine on the show, only a certain type can be that larger than life star. And they’ve muted their value when they are either quivering geeks or guys who are good but not great in presentation who are being controlled or propped by up the authority figures who are the biggest stars on the show. It’s worse when those same figures slip from charming and philanthropic babyface who are the people responsible for giving you your wrestling, and then flip to being heels, almost telling you while watching that you are supposed to think, “She’s this really great person who has to play a bad guy in a few skits on this show.” And then they wonder why the other people in the skits, or the skits themselves, have minimal traction as compared to usual historical levels of the business.

 

Yet, ironically, staring them in the face is a 5-foot-9 skinny Irishman and a woman who they are desperate to copy, yet the people in charge have absolutely no idea how she got there. And they don’t allow people to be themselves and tell their real stories enough to take advantage of what they are to have them connect at the same level.

 

The excuse that wrestling isn’t real and thus can’t be as popular would ring less hollow if documentaries were kicking the hell out of screenplays at the box office. And while there are exceptions to every rule, and fantasies are prevalent in movies, you rarely see character and plotline inconsistencies and the muting of character development, or the general level of bad dialogue and poor delivery that you see on Raw. Wrestling at its best should be something you look forward to every week and when it’s over, can’t wait to see what happens next. It should not be something where you feel like you deserve a medal just for being able to sit through it and maintain interest in the third hour.

 

Keep in mind, that in January, ratings will bounce back, to a degree. In actuality, the early year bounce back in 2015 felt like less than most years, and the pre-football decline was significantly lower to start with than any year since Raw was getting killed by Nitro. So record lows, as we’ve had already the past two weeks, should get even lower, particularly in October when the sports competition gets even stronger.

[crownsy]

Good read, tough to disagree with any of it.

 

One thing on the Three Hour format, and this is lifted from an opnion peice on PWtorch.com, the solution is so simple. Lets Agree 3 hours isn't going anywhere.

 

Just do this:

 

NXT 8-9

Raw 9-11

 

 

8-9's ratings will be lower, but will show off NXT (you can replay it on WWE network, assuming USA will agree. or hell, show your actual developmental people there. NXT is a third brand at this point.) and Raw will feel less like a death march for 3 hours.

[Blackman]

Who watches 3 hour shows anyway anno 2015?

[crownsy]

Who watches 3 hour shows anyway anno 2015?

 

Agreed, but USA makes more money of solid if unspectacular ratings in that slot for 3 hours, so as long as they keep paying WWE to produce them, those shows are staying at 3 hours.

 

At this point, I just do the following with RAW:

 

1. read a review of the show

2. Hit youtube for the segments I want to watch

 

Honestly the only show i "Watch" now is NXT, for the very reason you hit on Blackman. I have an hour to give you WWE, I don't have 3. I can't get home from work and go "yep, next 3 hours for raw!"

[smurphy1014]

At this point, I just do the following with RAW:

 

1. read a review of the show

2. Hit youtube for the segments I want to watch

 

Honestly the only show i "Watch" now is NXT

 

Same here.

[Derek B]

I understand why RAW is 3 hours in terms of pure business numbers... but I watch it online in places without commercials, makes it a 2 hour show and is far more watchable that way. Though it still drags in the most obvious places. It's funny to see that even within the WWE the importnt people would prefer the show to be 2 hours but their hands are tied with sponsorship cash.

 

At least NXT is focused, that's why it's so much better. Even the bad bits are forgiveable because they don't go twice as long as they should.

[Rickymex]

I think 3 hours could work but only if they actually create a more organized system for the roster and build up the midcard into something that actually works.

 

Keep the main event closed to certain circle like Cena, Rollins, Orton, Sheamus, Reigns, Ambrose, and Bray. This guys are either too popular or too unique to be involved in the midcard. Have them either feud with each other or trying to get a title shot.

 

Then close off the midcard as well to guys like Rusev, Ziggler, Cesaro, Owens, Ryback, Neville, Stardust, and whoever else fits in the group of workhorses. Keep all those in a constant state of competition with all of them fighting for shots at the IC title. Make them the backbone of the show by giving them matches and time with sensible finishes. Clean losses due to counters and getting lucky. Defend the title each PPV and have a rotation of challengers constantly aiming for a title shot instead of the same match 3 PPV in a row.

 

Then you make a division filled with jobbers and USE THEM as they are supposed to be used. Heath Slater, Curtis Axel, Damien Sandow, Zack Ryder and whoever else has fallen so far down and have them be the ones who take losses to the main eventers and midcarders instead of Cesaro jobbing to Big Show.

 

If Cesaro/Rusev/Owens has to wrestle Cena or Rollins then make it a competitive match (which Cena has done a lot) and put it as the main event with a clean loss to Cesaro 20 minutes in.

 

Instead the entire rosters is a clusterf*ck of guys moving up and down the card with not clear distinction on who matters and who doesn't except for Cena and for some odd reason Big Show.

 

The entire show just needs an actual structure from hour 1 to hour 3 instead the show only has the first 15 minutes planned with a recap and everything else just feels like like a bunch of stuff thrown together to kill time (which is probably true. At least Bray's promos are confirmed to be)

[dvdWarrior]

I'd recommend watching Raw on Hulu Plus, if you can. I'm not sure what they take out, but for some reason, it seems a lot more watchable there. Actually felt like a more organic wrestling show to me there.

 

Whenever I watch Raw regular-style, on TV, those 3 hours feel like a REALLY long time.

[Blackman]

I withdraw my argument against 3-hour events, if it results in more Iron(wo)man matches being announced.

 

Little disappointed it's just 30-min., as they could've just made it a 2-outof-3 falls. Then again: fast-paced 30min > 60min. of stretched offensive segments.

[K-Nection]

I'd recommend watching Raw on Hulu Plus, if you can. I'm not sure what they take out, but for some reason, it seems a lot more watchable there. Actually felt like a more organic wrestling show to me there.

 

Whenever I watch Raw regular-style, on TV, those 3 hours feel like a REALLY long time.

 

Honestly when I do catch it that's where I watch it because I can't do the 3 hours anymore....90 minutes is just fine for me. It cuts out seeing the same vignette 20 times. It cuts out alot of Michael Cole putting over the same thing 10 times during a show. For a long time it cut out diva's matches though which I didn't agree with because there were worse things they didn't take out which were Titus Oneal promos (Now he has came around but they don't give him the mic anymore).

[milamber]

Bayley & Sasha on NXT was my favorite WWE segment all year. Even though they spoiled Sasha's appearance earlier (thought I was watching Raw for a second ) and I knew about the Iron (Wo)Man match I still marked out.

[hellboy2]

i don't know about anyone else but minus Owens and New Day i really didn't like this show, maybe it was the awful stream on the Network or maybe i was just grumpy, but i could not get into it

[milamber]

Night of Champions was a solid PPV, IMO. I found every match entertaining in some way. None were bad but none were outstanding either. Rollins was my MVP. And Xavier's hair was off the charts

[K-Nection]

Night of Champions was a solid PPV, IMO. I found every match entertaining in some way. None were bad but none were outstanding either. Rollins was my MVP. And Xavier's hair was off the charts

 

I was trying to find out where I seen Xavier's hair and then it came to me.....

 

[Mootinie]

Charlotte is only the Diva's Champion because she's Ric Flair's daughter. Just getting that out there before it's too late...

[hellboy2]

Night of Champions was a solid PPV, IMO. I found every match entertaining in some way. None were bad but none were outstanding either. Rollins was my MVP. And Xavier's hair was off the charts

 

Yeah i have watched it again with my mate and seems much better, my stream was really off last night including the divas match only being about minutes long on first watch, same sort of thing happened during the Wyatt match, it suddenly went back to the preshow and i had a strange mix of Stardust's match fast forwarding and the Wyatt match combined

 

i still love the New Day the show could be awful and i would watch it just to see them

[iruleall15]

Charlotte is only the Diva's Champion because she's Ric Flair's daughter. Just getting that out there before it's too late...

 

Agreed. Shes not that great and IMO not attractive either. Looks 40 years old. SHould have been Becky or Sasha

[Jaysin]

I was trying to find out where I seen Xavier's hair and then it came to me.....

 

 

It's not like the crowd chanted "Rufio" or anything

 

Cole and JBL also argued over whether it was Rufio or Leonidas

[Blackman]

Agreed. Shes not that great and IMO not attractive either. Looks 40 years old. SHould have been Becky or Sasha

 

Great booking to keep Nikki on for record time as champ then. That way fans will enjoy the change the scenery. I think she's good enough on every aspect, though we HAVE been spoiled lately. But they do give us Paige vs Sasha every week so there's that. Who cares if it's for the title?

 

Just watched Summerslam - or the part from title match onward at least - and it was surprisingly good. I looked forward to Cesaro-Owens and the diva tussle, and the former definitely delivered. The diva match wasn't bad, but I always get lost in matches that involve over 4 people anyways.

[Wheelz316]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but here it is. A long time ago I remember Paul London (or Brian Kendrick) would come out on Smackdown or Raw as a jobber. He was the mascot of a team from whatever town they were in at the time. Does anyone remember this? Or am I dreaming. Are there pictures available?

[dvdWarrior]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but here it is. A long time ago I remember Paul London (or Brian Kendrick) would come out on Smackdown or Raw as a jobber. He was the mascot of a team from whatever town they were in at the time. Does anyone remember this? Or am I dreaming. Are there pictures available?

 

I remember that. It was Brian Kendrick, circa 2002? 2003, maybe? Somewhere in there. Whenever he first joined. I remember he wrestled on Velocity as The Jet, and there were a few others that escape me at the moment. It kind of ended when he officially joined the roster, I think.

 

[Makhai]

Agreed. Shes not that great and IMO not attractive either. Looks 40 years old. SHould have been Becky or Sasha

 

If you're the kinda person who can't root for a female performer because you don't inherently want to put your dick inside it you're the wrestling equivalent to the girl who only owns Magic Mike on Blu-Ray and you watch it on loop all day long while fantasizing about Channing Tatem when you bang your boyfriend.

 

I would also like to point out, she just had one of the best Divas matches maybe ever with Nikki i've seen inside the WWE at NOCs, and while I generally think knee injury match stories are terrible because it makes your potential offense is 0 or ludicrous and makes your options for spots a roll up and a punch. It came off really well and they both put in good work. Even getting Nikki over as a ring-general complete with turnbuckle sharpshooter.

 

Granted Sasha-Bayley eats it's lunch, but they actually get spotlight time and focus down there that WWE girls will never have and Charlotte and Paige are major reason those two are doing what they're doing right now. That's just undeniable.

 

She's much more than Ric Flair's daughter. I've seen this girl go 20mins with Natty, she's got the goods. Good ole' Vince and Kevin just can't pass up a chance to have her WHOOOOO 52 times and strut for no reason. "IM A PARTY GIRL" NO YOU'RE NOT! YOU'VE NEVER PARTIED ONE FRIGGEN TIME AND YOU DO IT WITH YOUR 400yr-old FATHER HOW LAME DO YOU COME OFF RIGHT NOW AGHHHHHH! It's fine if you want to get her over with general WWE viewers who don't watch NXT, for a couple months. It's nauseating at this point though and mortifying if it continues beyond NOCs.

 

Oh, and for the record, I agree with you. I'd bang every girl save Summer before I'd get to Charlotte. She's still a potentially great performer surrounded by about 5 others with similar talents. This should be a goldem era. I just hope they can hang on until Vince kicks the bucket.

[K-Nection]

It's not like the crowd chanted "Rufio" or anything

 

Cole and JBL also argued over whether it was Rufio or Leonidas

 

I was late to the game watching it and was streaming on my own time....I posted then continued on with the match.

[milamber]

Raw was fun. Paige's heel turn promo was a highlight, as was New Day teaming with Rusev. They actually made Kane interesting for the most of the show then ruined it with the Drag Rollins to Hell (aka GM Hornswoggle's home under the ring) segment. Should have stuck with the split personality and had Kane making Rollins paranoid for a couple of weeks. Didn't like Cesaro jobbing to Show so Show could job to Lesnar at a glorified house show. At least the Snap Suplex was impressive.

[milamber]

If you're the kinda person who can't root for a female performer because you don't inherently want to put your dick inside it you're the wrestling equivalent to the girl who only owns Magic Mike on Blu-Ray and you watch it on loop all day long while fantasizing about Channing Tatem when you bang your boyfriend.

 

I would also like to point out, she just had one of the best Divas matches maybe ever with Nikki i've seen inside the WWE at NOCs, and while I generally think knee injury match stories are terrible because it makes your potential offense is 0 or ludicrous and makes your options for spots a roll up and a punch. It came off really well and they both put in good work. Even getting Nikki over as a ring-general complete with turnbuckle sharpshooter.

 

Granted Sasha-Bayley eats it's lunch, but they actually get spotlight time and focus down there that WWE girls will never have and Charlotte and Paige are major reason those two are doing what they're doing right now. That's just undeniable.

 

She's much more than Ric Flair's daughter. I've seen this girl go 20mins with Natty, she's got the goods. Good ole' Vince and Kevin just can't pass up a chance to have her WHOOOOO 52 times and strut for no reason. "IM A PARTY GIRL" NO YOU'RE NOT! YOU'VE NEVER PARTIED ONE FRIGGEN TIME AND YOU DO IT WITH YOUR 400yr-old FATHER HOW LAME DO YOU COME OFF RIGHT NOW AGHHHHHH! It's fine if you want to get her over with general WWE viewers who don't watch NXT, for a couple months. It's nauseating at this point though and mortifying if it continues beyond NOCs.

 

Oh, and for the record, I agree with you. I'd bang every girl save Summer before I'd get to Charlotte. She's still a potentially great performer surrounded by about 5 others with similar talents. This should be a goldem era. I just hope they can hang on until Vince kicks the bucket.

 

I'm disappointed Charlotte (and Nikki) for that matter are getting so much crap. Charlotte might not be a ring general and is sometimes sloppy but she's still good. Same goes for Nikki who was the 2nd best active Diva after Paige pre-Revolution. The NOC match was underrated, IMO. Charlotte had me thinking she was really injured at first and Nikki showed she has more than just a good power moveset. Only the rushed finish fell flat.

 

I also don't mind them using Ric Flair so much. It's cheap pop to get Charlotte over with the casuals quickly, no different to heels talking smack about the local sports team. And they can't go wrong following the NXT booking. Sasha beating Charlotte for the title at Wrestlemania 32 would be awesome.