The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[djthefunkchris]

I recommend toning down the conversation a bit. No need for hostilities and name calling at.

 

My two cents on the subject are as follows... If you don't now the character, it is because you didn't watch ECW. ECW is where they seem to be "trying" people out, then bringing them in on Raw or Smackdown as soon as they think they are ready. That's how it looks to me.

 

If your not watching ECW, you really 'should', just as people complain about TNA that don't watch it, 'should' before speaking. Especially about people that they don't know anything about but a show or two.

 

I'm not even going to post my own personal thoughts about the guy, because it would probably be non-productive at this point of the conversation, perhaps later after we calm down a bit?

 

Anyways, all I'm asking is if you don't know about the character outside of Raw, please try to understand that RAW is not the reason he's where he is, but the result of what he's already done to get there (in the WWE, specifically ECW for this guy).

[Self]

It should be a fine midcard battle. Sure it's a title match, but if it goes on after DX vs JeriShow, Kofi vs Orton or whatever Undertaker is doing I'll eat my hat. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad WWE are mixing it up a bit.

 

Would I have picked Sheamus? No. I'm in the 'too soon' camp. I would have had him in a dominating feud on RAW first, to build him up some more, but I like his look and certainly don't begrudge him the spot.

[jbergey_2005]

Its really not that Chris. The fans of RAW dont know who he is and they are suppose to believe he can beat Cena?

 

Its how he is booked. Its really poor IMO. You have a supposed threat to Cena beat on some midcarders and expect us to believe that he is a real threat to Cena and his title. It just doesnt work for me.

 

The fact that I dont think he is charasmatic or looks really intimidating has a lot to do with how he was booked.

[djthefunkchris]

It should be a fine midcard battle. Sure it's a title match, but if it goes on after DX vs JeriShow, Kofi vs Orton or whatever Undertaker is doing I'll eat my hat. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad WWE are mixing it up a bit.

 

Would I have picked Sheamus? No. I'm in the 'too soon' camp. I would have had him in a dominating feud on RAW first, to build him up some more, but I like his look and certainly don't begrudge him the spot.

 

My only thought on that, is that he has done it. He has done the equivalent of going through the mid/low card, and is now going to be pushed into the main event. As I said, that's taking ECW's history along with Raw. I think WWE tend to look at all shows as equal time, just stepping stones for some, teaching area's for other's. ECW is a place where people like Henry, Finlay and others can go to "make" up and comer's. He was "made" on ECW. He's being "pushed" on RAW from there.

 

IF he doesn't deliver, he could get washed away just as jbergey said though.

 

There is so many points that I agree with from everyone, on all sides of this debate. That's why I want it to come back down to rational conversation, as to have a discussion about it, rather then going another route, and argueing over people.

 

The good thing is, that if people are going to actually debate over him here, you can bet that hardcore fans are definately going on about him.

[lazorbeak]

Okay, I will take the bait.

 

I love how you use the term "dumb" so freely. It really makes you come of great in your arguments which are really opinions.

 

I used the word "dumb" once, in a situation where you argued that Sheamus didn't "go over" Kofi Kingston when he physically eliminated him from the ring and thus won the match. That's not using it 'freely.' I think there is practically judicial notice that that is an incredibly dumb thing to say. That is textbook "dumb." That is vintage "dumb."

 

I will expect an apology when Sheamus is out of the E within a year.

 

Seriously? 24 Hours ago you wrote this:

 

Who is this Sheamus character?

 

Yeah surprising is good but Id never heard of the guy before last night...

 

And now you think you have an opinion regarding this guy so strong that ANYBODY is going to owe you an apology? You're the one that can't seem to wrap their head around facts because you have some weird problem with some dude you've seen wrestle what, once?

 

See how I can use the facts of your previous post to show how little you know what you're talking about? Isn't this fun?

 

 

John Cena

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/j/john-cena.html 260 pounds, FYI the wrestling world will fabricate weights and nation of residence to evolve storylines in case you didnt know that. Mark Calloway isnt really from Death Valley, lol and Andre the Giant didnt really weight 550 pounds.

 

Gee, thanks, mister. And um, out of curiosity, how many guys in the wrestling business say they weigh significantly less than they actually weigh? Do you have one documented case in the history of wrestling? Cena's billed at 6'1 which means he's probably a legit 6'? Weighing 240 pounds is a stretch. Weighing 260 pounds, he'd have to look something like this:

 

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pictures/j/johncena/06.jpg

 

 

Also, you really need to watch more of the E before you call out people as being dumb. You apparently dont understand the E's booking pattern if you honestly think anyone will believe Shameus will beat Cena. If the fans dont believe a guy has a chance how is it a great match? Even you, a big Shameus mark said " I mean, duh, Cena's not losing the title, but so what?"

 

I'm sorry, what? I'm not the guy who said "who is this guy?" I'm the one that needs to watch the product? I don't understand WWE's booking pattern? I'm the one that made comparisons to Umaga vs. Cena, a recent example that was extremely similar? WWE markets to marks. Kids who will see Cena get beaten up for the next few weeks and then wonder "gee I wonder if Cena can pull this one out?" And then they will be happy when he does.

 

Also, reading comp time: did I call YOU dumb? If you answered "yes," please re-read what I wrote.

 

Also, when did I say I was a big Sheamus mark? I guess burying him out of hand after having never heard of him was a big giveaway, eh? I think the jury is still out on the guy, but I think at worst he will be the next Test, because I don't have some irrational problem with the guy. Oh, and I watch the show often enough to know who he is and to have seen more than one of his matches.

 

Pretty much says it all right there. No one, even you believe he has a chance to win so how exactly is that entertaining?

 

Again, no one with any knowledge of the business realistically thought Umaga, a guy who never cut a single promo, was not a complete physical freak of nature (Khali's token title run), and had a finisher that was a running thumb was going to win the title. And his match with Cena was, by your own admission, a "great match." But jbergey, how can it be entertaining since EVERYBODY KNEW Cena was going to win?! It's wrestling.

 

Also, nice job avoiding everything I said about giving the storyline a chance.

[djthefunkchris]

Its really not that Chris. The fans of RAW dont know who he is and they are suppose to believe he can beat Cena?

 

Its how he is booked. Its really poor IMO. You have a supposed threat to Cena beat on some midcarders and expect us to believe that he is a real threat to Cena and his title. It just doesnt work for me.

 

The fact that I dont think he is charasmatic or looks really intimidating has a lot to do with how he was booked.

 

No, but the fans of WWE DO know who he is. Everyone knows that RAW is not a "show" with a roster in and by itself, because all the other shows are "hyped" on each show. RAW always has commercials about ECW, so people that only watch RAW do KNOW who he is. They have seen the footage.

 

I think sometimes we think of ECW as a "B" show, when it's really not. There are three main brands for WWE, and ECW is one of them. Superstars is a "B" show, in my opinion. We gear ourselves around a game, that will only act a certain way in it's design, to simulate the things "realistically" we have to go beyond what it is, and make it something it's not (Like making ECW part of another brand, instead of a brand on it's own). The game doesn't take into effect that ECW only has one hour, where-as the other two shows have two hours, when making a roster, so this is necessary for "simulation" reasons.

 

I think "our" knowledge gets in the way of how the brands are supposed to look to the average fan.

[lazorbeak]

I recommend toning down the conversation a bit. No need for hostilities and name calling at.

 

I'm not even going to post my own personal thoughts about the guy, because it would probably be non-productive at this point of the conversation, perhaps later after we calm down a bit?

 

Anyways, all I'm asking is if you don't know about the character outside of Raw, please try to understand that RAW is not the reason he's where he is, but the result of what he's already done to get there (in the WWE, specifically ECW for this guy).

 

I am sorry if I am coming off antagonistic but I can't believe I'm in an argument with someone who had never heard of the guy and posts about how they don't understand how "anyone" could find a wrestler entertaining. God, debating how much smaller Cena is after I said he was physically smaller than Sheamus? How is that anything but a waste of time?

 

While I used the word "dumb," I directed it towards a statement, not a person. And the statement, that Sheamus didn't go over Kofi, when Sheamus eliminated Kofi to win the match, was pretty dumb. But I'm not calling anybody names, and I'm only being hostile to someone that seems bound and determined to argue with me over niggling details to the total exclusion of any point I might try to make.

 

It should be a fine midcard battle. Sure it's a title match, but if it goes on after DX vs JeriShow, Kofi vs Orton or whatever Undertaker is doing I'll eat my hat. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad WWE are mixing it up a bit.

 

Exactly, Self. The same way that Cena/Umaga took a backseat to the Royal Rumble storyline between Undertaker and HBK.

[jbergey_2005]

I posted the website Cena is 6 3'. He is billed smaller because he plays the never quit underdog role.

 

By your example of going over is this getting over another wrestler than as well.

 

-Undertaker is destroying Jericho in the ring, Big Show comes out and nails Undertaker 32 times with a chair. Jericho falls on top of him for the pin. Is that Jericho getting over or Undertaker?

 

I dont have a wierd problem with Sheamus. Ive just seen guys like him come and go especially when they are shoved down peoples throats. Its not like his profile has a shining light on it saying "future superstar" I looked at his match history and how he was pushed. It didnt look to me like he was getting over particularly great in the smaller organizations.

 

Correct, you did point out Umaga vs Cena but it was not similiar IMO. Umaga had been undefeated for 8 months prior to the match and had dominated some big names by the time the match was set. I believed Cena could lose and that is why I purchased that PPV and watched it.

 

What do you mean give the storyline a chance? I doubt Im going to send protest letters to McMahon telling him Sheamus sucks. Im just saying that this is headed down a bad path that has been followed many times and never really strikes gold with the fans. Overpushing a guy before hes ready.

[jbergey_2005]

I am sorry if I am coming off antagonistic but I can't believe I'm in an argument with someone who had never heard of the guy and posts about how they don't understand how "anyone" could find a wrestler entertaining. God, debating how much smaller Cena is after I said he was physically smaller than Sheamus? How is that anything but a waste of time?

 

While I used the word "dumb," I directed it towards a statement, not a person. And the statement, that Sheamus didn't go over Kofi, when Sheamus eliminated Kofi to win the match, was pretty dumb. But I'm not calling anybody names, and I'm only being hostile to someone that seems bound and determined to argue with me over niggling details to the total exclusion of any point I might try to make.

 

 

 

Exactly, Self. The same way that Cena/Umaga took a backseat to the Royal Rumble storyline between Undertaker and HBK.

 

Please cite this?

 

You really need to read all the posts leading up to a discussion before you make assumptions. I was basically critical of the booking in which I asked a question about what his fans see in him.

[lazorbeak]

By your example of going over is this getting over another wrestler than as well.

 

-Undertaker is destroying Jericho in the ring, Big Show comes out and nails Undertaker 32 times with a chair. Jericho falls on top of him for the pin. Is that Big Show getting over or Jericho?

 

How is that like my example? Again, Sheamus booted Kofi over the top rope. No heel chicanery, no Orton interference, no crooked referees, no mass conspiracy, nothing. Sheamus is the one that slammed Cena afterwards, too, to start a feud.

 

 

What do you mean give the storyline a chance? I doubt Im going to send protest letters to McMahon telling him Sheamus sucks. Im just saying that this is headed down a bad path that has been followed many times and never really strikes gold with the fans. Overpushing a guy before hes ready.

 

I mean stop complaining about some guy because you don't see him as a next world champ based on one appearance and give the storyline a chance. Maybe you don't buy him as champ now but if the storyline is successful maybe you will down the line. I didn't buy JBL as champ when he beat Eddie but eventually he convinced me he belonged.

[jbergey_2005]

No, but the fans of WWE DO know who he is. Everyone knows that RAW is not a "show" with a roster in and by itself, because all the other shows are "hyped" on each show. RAW always has commercials about ECW, so people that only watch RAW do KNOW who he is. They have seen the footage.

 

I think sometimes we think of ECW as a "B" show, when it's really not. There are three main brands for WWE, and ECW is one of them. Superstars is a "B" show, in my opinion. We gear ourselves around a game, that will only act a certain way in it's design, to simulate the things "realistically" we have to go beyond what it is, and make it something it's not (Like making ECW part of another brand, instead of a brand on it's own). The game doesn't take into effect that ECW only has one hour, where-as the other two shows have two hours, when making a roster, so this is necessary for "simulation" reasons.

 

I think "our" knowledge gets in the way of how the brands are supposed to look to the average fan.

 

Fair enough Chris. I dont watch ECW so I guess I am lost as to how impressive he has looked in ECW. Raw needs to do more storyline recaps or something then for the people that dont watch ECW if they want to include that in their current storylines.

[djthefunkchris]

I posted the website Cena is 6 3'. He is billed smaller because he plays the never quit underdog role.

 

By your example of going over is this getting over another wrestler than as well.

 

-Undertaker is destroying Jericho in the ring, Big Show comes out and nails Undertaker 32 times with a chair. Jericho falls on top of him for the pin. Is that Big Show getting over or Jericho?

 

I dont have a wierd problem with Sheamus. Ive just seen guys like him come and go especially when they are shoved down peoples throats. Its not like his profile has a shining light on it saying "future superstar" I looked at his match history and how he was pushed. It didnt look to me like he was getting over particularly great in the smaller organizations.

 

Correct, you did point out Umaga vs Cena but it was not similiar IMO. Umaga had been undefeated for 8 months prior to the match and had dominated some big names by the time the match was set. I believed Cena could lose and that is why I purchased that PPV and watched it.

 

What do you mean give the storyline a chance? I doubt Im going to send protest letters to McMahon telling him Sheamus sucks. Im just saying that this is headed down a bad path that has been followed many times and never really strikes gold with the fans. Overpushing a guy before hes ready.

 

I believe it's to establish him into the upper/main card. Cena is going to have a semi-decent match no matter who they put him up against, he's just somehow able to pull that off. He's the perfect person to highlight Shamus, in my opinion, because everyone knows Cena is a "Class Act", even if you hate him. You know he'll job to anyone they ask him to, especially if it's to help out a "fellow wrestler" which is what Cena is about (I haven't found anything to doubt this). Putting him up against one of the other guys like MVP, or especially someone else they are trying to establish right now (Kofi), isn't doing anything but stalling one over the other. Putting him up against a "Main" guy, and more specifically, a Main Face, is what needs to happen (with his character).

 

To me it looks as if the WWE is trying to elevate as much people as possible, TO increase their over-all top end of the card. Legacy, MVP, Punk, Shamus, Kingston, Swagger, Miz, etc. These are all relatively NEW guys, and they are becoming household names in the wrestling world. Having them combat each other, while still being "made", to me is only going to "stall" the momentum. Having them face "legitimate" opposites... That's a good way to book it in my opinion. The storyline that goes with it will determine how succesfull it is, more then likely.

 

I'm not a fan of the Shamus character, I was more of a Kozlov/Swagger fan myself, but it's something new. It's very similar to the what Hogan's character was "supposed" to be, as well, so I'm curious as to where it goes.

 

All I'm saying is that there is alot of truth in making an opinion from one match, as opposed to actually checking someone out. There isn't a websight I've found that I 100% agree with, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's obvious that your opinion is being inspired by something else, which is why your getting so much slack about this.

 

I want to help you out here, but your making it difficult.

[Self]

I'm skim reading these posts, so forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but is someone suggesting that Sheamus should have decisivly beaten Kofi in that Battle Royale? That is a bad idea.

 

Kofi Kingston's push is far more important than Sheamus' right now. WWE need fresh, new, Main Event Babyface talent far more than they need a legitimate monster to feed to Cena. The Kofi/Orton feud is heating up nicely, but if Kofi is beaten by anyone, ANYONE, it could stall his momentum.

[jbergey_2005]

How is that like my example? Again, Sheamus booted Kofi over the top rope. No heel chicanery, no Orton interference, no crooked referees, no mass conspiracy, nothing. Sheamus is the one that slammed Cena afterwards, too, to start a feud.

 

My whole point on this was that he didnt look impressive over Orton or Kofi. He finished off a guy that was hanging on the ropes. Yes I know its a heel tactic but they certainly could have done more like have him beat on Kofi for awhile before Orton comes back and distracts Kofi before he throws him out. Anything really to make it look like he was on their level.

 

If he is playing some type of cheap manipulator gimmick I could understand the finish but they want to make him a monster. So they need to book him as a monster.

[lazorbeak]

If he is playing some type of cheap manipulator gimmick I could understand the finish but they want to make him a monster. So they need to book him as a monster.

 

Maybe he could manhandle the champion somehow? Nah fans will never buy it!

[djthefunkchris]

Fair enough Chris. I dont watch ECW so I guess I am lost as to how impressive he has looked in ECW. Raw needs to do more storyline recaps or something then for the people that dont watch ECW if they want to include that in their current storylines.

 

I think about it differently. IF your only watching RAW, what better way to get you to "know" this guy, then to throw him into a match with the most over guy on the roster (someone you definately know).

 

Thanks for your comment, by the way!

 

The fun thing is, we can agree on the Shamus character. I'm not a fan either

 

I do want to point out though, that I think the booking in WWE is starting to rock. I like the idea of the "opposite" matchings. NEW Heel vs. OLD Face. OLD Heel vs NEW Face, etc. This is what is needed to elevate these guys, and I all the sudden see what 'could' have been the reasoning of alot of other things that took place before this started happening.

 

People like Orton are a bigger threat, more over then ever. Throwin' him up against a "newer" face like Kofi, actually gives Kofi a legitimate rise in the card. Same with Shamus and Cena. Cena (no matter what people want to admit) is probably more over now, then ever before. I don't know why though, I went from "FAN" to "boring" with him for some reason. I think it's because I want him to become something that's not happened (HEEL).

 

But I can see why the Legacy vs DX, and all the similar match-ups now, working into a bigger picture for the sake of all the newer people that haven't really had the chance to shine yet. People like Punk are legitimate threats now, and going up against someone new will actually elevate the new guy.

[djthefunkchris]

If he is playing some type of cheap manipulator gimmick I could understand the finish but they want to make him a monster. So they need to book him as a monster.

 

Maybe he could manhandle the champion somehow? Nah fans will never buy it!

 

I dont' really think he's being booked as a "MONSTER" threat, as much as just a big, overconfident, Irish: I love to fight/Finlay Type guy. He's not a Batista or Lashley type either... More like a "Heel" Hogan, in my eyes (with less entertainment skills, so far).

[jbergey_2005]

I dont' really think he's being booked as a "MONSTER" threat, as much as just a big, overconfident, Irish: I love to fight/Finlay Type guy. He's not a Batista or Lashley type either... More like a "Heel" Hogan, in my eyes (with less entertainment skills, so far).

 

Hmm. OK. Ill give that a chance but he needs a tan. It hurts my eyes watching him.lol

[dvdWarrior]

I think you guys might be putting too much thought into this.

 

Sheamus will have a pretty good match (by WWE standards) with John Cena, and then he'll be that much further up the proverbial food chain. Next time he gets a shot, it'll be that much more ... acceptable?

 

Doesn't seem like something ya'll really need to fight over.

 

[jbergey_2005]

I think you guys might be putting too much thought into this.

 

Sheamus will have a pretty good match (by WWE standards) with John Cena, and then he'll be that much further up the proverbial food chain. Next time he gets a shot, it'll be that much more ... acceptable?

 

Doesn't seem like something ya'll really need to fight over.

 

 

Yeah, good point. With all these PPVs it always seems like they are rushing storylines to the point they dont make sense. So this is probably how the have to book it with PPVs 3 weeks apart.

[djthefunkchris]

I think you guys might be putting too much thought into this.

 

Sheamus will have a pretty good match (by WWE standards) with John Cena, and then he'll be that much further up the proverbial food chain. Next time he gets a shot, it'll be that much more ... acceptable?

 

Doesn't seem like something ya'll really need to fight over.

 

 

/nod.

 

The sooner they establish the card, the better for the storyline as well, which after every PPV seems to be the first thing that is established.

[djthefunkchris]

Hmm. OK. Ill give that a chance but he needs a tan. It hurts my eyes watching him.lol

 

Believe it or not.... THAT is a BIG part of his gimmick. That same statement (maybe not word for word) has been said so many times on ECW already, lol.

 

I'm willing to bet that HHH get's full use out of that before long.

[jbergey_2005]

Maybe he could manhandle the champion somehow? Nah fans will never buy it!

 

Creative booking does wonders for fans imaginations. Attacking the Champion after the match is set isnt really something new. Throw a twist in there so we have an original concept and we have a match fans might pay to see.

[tristram]

I was just saying in another thread, nothing these days can be an original concept. Story-telling basically evolves and elaborates the tropes we already know and love. It's like the old saying, sex sells, certain storyline tropes and arcs sell too, it's just a matter of how they're recycled to whether people buy their faux pas 'originality'.

 

Lads, feel free to kiss and make up at any time... Just not in front of me, k?

[sabataged]

Decemember PPVs in general have been weak cards because they are beginning the road to wrestlemania with royal rumble in a month