The Official WWE / NXT Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hashasheen" data-cite="Hashasheen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'd personally disagree with that assessment, as well as the fact that you even compared him to David Flair in any way shape or form. Chavo was definitly in the top ten of WCW's cruiserweight division and one of their better workers in the WWE. He had a great mix of American high-flying and luchadore abilities that made him a great worker with both American workers and luchadores. Plus he had decent mic skills and was a far superior heel than a face. The guy could have done so much more in the cruiserweight division as a heel than anything else, but the WWE destroyed that division and kept putting him against guys above his weight class (Kane, Batisa when part of la Familia, etc...) in feuds that didn't help fans perceptions.</div></blockquote><p> Top ten? Really? It's not that I thought he was a bad worker. He wasn't. But the definition of "average", and you get Chavo. He wasn't really that good at anything. Anything he can do, he did okay, and anything he can do, everyone else can do better. </p><p> </p><p> He got exactly what he deserved. He never sucked. But he was never that good either.</p>

[Fantabulous]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>"One of the best cruiserweights of all time?"</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I can think of plenty of cruiserweight wrestlers who are far better than Chavo, in just about every area. Chavo was solid in almost all areas but not much more than that. He wasn't actually that experienced in the lucha style so he wasn't that good there, but other than that he was good but good's about it. Certainly nowhere near being one of the greatest of all time.</p>

[djthefunkchris]

I liked Chavo, I thought he was a solid character. No matter to me if he was mid-card bound or not. He still stood out, which is better then alot of wrestler's over the years. The fact he could put on a match with bassically anyone/any style, made him versatile. I've always felt people like him were a necessity. One of the top 10 in anything... Not in my top 10, but definately someone I won't forget, which is saying something.

[ChrisKid]

*crawls from under a rock*

 

Michael Cole is annoying to me, yes. I find his heel act to do more harm than good, but he can be entertaining. I found a "Best of NXT Season 3" series on youtube which highlight how crappy, yet incredibly entertaining, that mockery of a wrestling show was.

 

The highlight of the entire season? The announcing. Sure, it's not good business to just bury the product, but after watching the videos and listening to Cole just not giving a **** and mocking the entire show, which Matthews, Striker, and CM Punk (his sarcastic announcer run was awesome) aknowledge as being pisspoor, had me laughing the whole way.

 

For those who want to see the compilations, it's on this channel:

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/xpantherx

 

Cole,Matthews,Striker & Punk made this series watchable

[ampulator]

Cole sucks as an announcer, but shines as a color commentator. The WWE can't have him being both.

[Rone Rivendale]

I agree with the majority assessment of Chavo as a decent mid-carder who put on decent matches. Which is the only reason I found him to be piss-poor as the major titleholder of a brand. I realize the "ECW" Title wasn't a WORLD title. It was just slightly above IC and US Title level. But TBH, I never found Chavo worthy of the IC or US belts either so that explains my opinion on him as WWECW champion.

 

I liked his short lived gimmick as Kerwin White. It actually would have been nice to see where that could have led if Eddie hadn't passed away and forced WWE to change him back to Chavo to 'honor' Eddie by putting on boring matches and getting a cheap pop with the Frog Splash.

[ampulator]

It's not just that, it's that, even as a fan of the 90's wrestling, he isn't well-remembered (or well-disliked, to be fair) back then. He was just... there. He was just... Chavo. I never understood the adoration or hate he receives. He deserves neither, because he has earned neither. He never put on that many bad matches, but he has never put on any great matches either. Anytime he puts on a good match, it's because the other person. Sure, he doesn't drag the match down. That's a credit to him. but he doesn't elevate matches either.

[westerby]

I think Chavo was the last of what you'd call the 'good hands' in televised WWE.

Now they are only interested in making megastars and selling merch, guys like Chavo who are just there, being solid and elevating other are needed.

[djthefunkchris]

I think Chavo was the last of what you'd call the 'good hands' in televised WWE.

Now they are only interested in making megastars and selling merch, guys like Chavo who are just there, being solid and elevating other are needed.

 

/nod... Behind every megastar is 100 Chavo's (well, you get what I mean). I certainly think people like him are needed, not just to put people over either. I feel he makes a good middle man for title's as well... He can play both face or heel. I didn't think he was bad at being a face, felt he could have done better with better material. I didn't have a problem with him holding the ECW Title, and wouldn't have had a problem with any other title. I felt the storyline between himself and Rey Mysterio was pretty good as well, even though I wish Eddie wasn't part of that story. Would have worked if Chavo was just jeolous of Rey for being Rey as well. My opinion, they could have added the Smackdown Title to that, I wouldn't have had a problem. They didn't need to though.

[Wrestling Century]

IMO Chavo is one of the top ten cruiserweights of all time. He was never, ever given a chance to rise above midcard, and he does indeed have some of the best in ring skills ever. If you've ever seen him at a live event/house show before you would understand. With WWE jobbing him out the past few years I think that everybody forgot how great he was. Is he/was he ever on Eddie's or Liger's level? No, but he is still one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

[ampulator]

IMO Chavo is one of the top ten cruiserweights of all time. He was never, ever given a chance to rise above midcard, and he does indeed have some of the best in ring skills ever. If you've ever seen him at a live event/house show before you would understand. With WWE jobbing him out the past few years I think that everybody forgot how great he was. Is he/was he ever on Eddie's or Liger's level? No, but he is still one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

I can name three during the WCW era that were way better than he was-Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Billy Kidman. Malenko and Kidman didn't really rise above the midcard either, yet they are held in much better regard in terms of ringwork. Even guys like Yang, Jamie Knoble, Kaz Hayashi, Taka Michinoku, Shane Helms, Shannon Moore, Evan Karagias had more in terms of potential. That's not to mention Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, and maybe even Chris Benoit (I'm not sure I would consider him a cruiserweight, though). I'm not even going to go through the Luchadors, because he's nowhere even close to them.

 

If Chavo is on any list of "all time cruiserweights", he would certainly be at the bottom at that list.

[Jaysin]

I wouldn't say he's one of the top ten of all time. Especially if you include modern people like Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley etc etc.

 

But I do believe he's a better worker than most people ever really give him credit for.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't say he's one of the top ten of all time. Especially if you include modern people like Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley etc etc.

 

But I do believe he's a better worker than most people ever really give him credit for.

It depends on what you mean by "credit". He certainly ain't crap like a lot of people say he is, I'd give you that. But he's not that good. Solid? Of course. Good? Not really. You can compare him to anyone else during any era, there's also a ton of people better than he was at what he did.

[Unregistered]

I just want to say, that I don't care what anyone says, but I loved Pepe. And, in ode to the spirit of Pepe, I love Chavo. Even if Chavo wasn't the greatest of wrestlers, he still brought to the world Pepe.

 

I have a feeling I may be the only one to remember this. Well me, and Norman Smiley.

[ampulator]

I just want to say, that I don't care what anyone says, but I loved Pepe. And, in ode to the spirit of Pepe, I love Chavo. Even if Chavo wasn't the greatest of wrestlers, he still brought to the world Pepe.

 

I have a feeling I may be the only one to remember this. Well me, and Norman Smiley.

You know, I can respect that. I don't understand it, but I can respect that.

[Wrestling Century]

I can name three during the WCW era that were way better than he was-Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Billy Kidman. Malenko and Kidman didn't really rise above the midcard either, yet they are held in much better regard in terms of ringwork. Even guys like Yang, Jamie Knoble, Kaz Hayashi, Taka Michinoku, Shane Helms, Shannon Moore, Evan Karagias had more in terms of potential. That's not to mention Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, and maybe even Chris Benoit (I'm not sure I would consider him a cruiserweight, though). I'm not even going to go through the Luchadors, because he's nowhere even close to them.

 

If Chavo is on any list of "all time cruiserweights", he would certainly be at the bottom at that list.

 

I wouldn't count Malenko as a cruiserweight, he was more of a technician that WCW threw into the cruiserweight division. Kidman was above average, and the rest of the wrestlers you named were IMO average. Also, Karagias was slightly below average IMO, and I certainly don't consider Benoit a cruiserweight. I would say that Chavo is on par with Chris Jericho in terms of in ring skills, but not in terms of charisma. Just my opinion of course, but a large majority of those guys you mentioned wouldn't even crack my top ten list, or wouldn't be considered cruiserweights in my book.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't count Malenko as a cruiserweight, he was more of a technician that WCW threw into the cruiserweight division. Kidman was above average, and the rest of the wrestlers you named were IMO average. Also, Karagias was slightly below average IMO, and I certainly don't consider Benoit a cruiserweight. I would say that Chavo is on par with Chris Jericho in terms of in ring skills, but not in terms of charisma. Just my opinion of course, but a large majority of those guys you mentioned wouldn't even crack my top ten list, or wouldn't be considered cruiserweights in my book.

In terms of ring skills on par with Chris Jericho? That's just hilarious. Chris Jericho's Japan, Mexico, and WCW work way outclasses anything that Chavo can do. One will run out on both hands to count on how many great matches he had.

 

Chavo has only one notable fued. One. With a worker way better than he was. Punk. And it's nowhere near even Jericho's work with Storm, Benoit, Angle, Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Juventud Guerrera, Rey Mysterio, and Billy Kidman.

 

Since when did Chavo have awesome matches with guys like Juventud Guerrera or Rey Myserio? It's guys he's worked with for years. And none of those matches are even among the best Juventud Guerrera and Rey Mysterio can do.

 

Billy Kidman was way more athletic, and also a better high flyer as well. He has had awesome matches with workers that Chavo has worked with, but none of which Chavo's ever even compares to Kidman's. Kidman's work with Mysterio and Guerrera are way more notable than Chavo's work with them.

 

Even if you narrow the definition of "cruiserweight", Jericho is way above in terms of what Chavo was. Better Psychology. Better Selling. Better High Flying. More Charisma. More "It". Chris Jericho is on par with Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, and Eddie Guerrero in terms of ringwork. Unless you think Chavo is close to Angle, Benoit, or Eddie, I can't see how Chavo is even close to Jericho.

[Fantabulous]

I stopped paying much attention when he claimed Chavo was one of the best cruiserweights of all time. If he'd called him one of his favourite cruiserweights of all time then it wouldn't be a big deal because everyone has their own tastes, but Chavo just isn't good enough to be in a credible top-10 of all time great cruiserweight wrestlers. There are too many way more talented wrestlers, in the US alone before you get into other countries, who smoke Chavo in every department. But when you start claiming Dean Malenko isn't a cruiserweight and claiming other cruiserweights aren't really cruiserweights, then you're impossible take seriously and give your opinion any credence.

[Hashasheen]

Top ten? Really? It's not that I thought he was a bad worker. He wasn't. But the definition of "average", and you get Chavo. He wasn't really that good at anything. Anything he can do, he did okay, and anything he can do, everyone else can do better.

 

He got exactly what he deserved. He never sucked. But he was never that good either.

We might be disagreeing based on how we view cruiserweight workers. I don't look for guys who were more akin to spot-monkeys than complete workers (which is what a lot of the luchadores brought into WCW were) in my division. Promo-wise, wrestling-wise, Chavo had an edge over much of the division, was incredibly entertaining and held his own in most of his feuds.

[Teh_Showtime]

Guys like Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Ultimo Dragon etc were not spot monkeys, and they were far superrior to Chavo.

[Hashasheen]

Guys like Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Ultimo Dragon etc were not spot monkeys, and they were far superior to Chavo.

 

Hence top ten in the WCW cruiserweight division, not best of all time. The ones you've mentioned are definitely the upper crust of my top ten, and Chavo's in the lower half.

 

The WCW Cruiserweight division had massive depth and incredible turnover from 1996 to 2001, guys. Looking at those who preformed in the division during that time and their ability at that time and including my opinion as what makes a good cruiserweight (or just a good wrestler), I've got my top ten.

[Jaysin]

I just want to say, that I don't care what anyone says, but I loved Pepe. And, in ode to the spirit of Pepe, I love Chavo. Even if Chavo wasn't the greatest of wrestlers, he still brought to the world Pepe.

 

I have a feeling I may be the only one to remember this. Well me, and Norman Smiley.

 

I loved Pepe.

 

I also loved the Screamin Demons, but then again I think I'm the only one that remembers that amazingly entertaining duo.

[Rone Rivendale]

I loved Pepe.

 

I also loved the Screamin Demons, but then again I think I'm the only one that remembers that amazingly entertaining duo.

 

Was that Smiley and KISS Demon (aka Dale Torborg)? I don't remember that team, but I can guess from the name.

 

I was a big fan of Norman Smiley in WCW. He was the Santino of his time. Very talented in the ring but choose to spend his time entertaining the fans and giving them a good laugh instead of being serious and putting on 4 star matches.

 

You know, if WWE brought back the Hardcore Title, I could see Santino having that same gimmick of being Hardcore champion but being afraid of anything hardcore related.

[Hashasheen]

I loved Pepe.

 

I also loved the Screamin Demons, but then again I think I'm the only one that remembers that amazingly entertaining duo.

 

I remember them. When I first started delving into WCW, 2000 was my initial year (and great influence on what not to do). Man that was a great team.

[ampulator]

We might be disagreeing based on how we view cruiserweight workers. I don't look for guys who were more akin to spot-monkeys than complete workers (which is what a lot of the luchadores brought into WCW were) in my division. Promo-wise, wrestling-wise, Chavo had an edge over much of the division, was incredibly entertaining and held his own in most of his feuds.

 

Luchadores are not Spot Monkeys. Spot Monkeys copy Luchadors's awesome moments, but without the setups or the other skills to go with being a Luchador, at least, back then. (Not so sure now). Jeff Hardy was a Spot Monkey. La Parka, despite being heavier than Jeff Hardy by like 30 to 40 pounds back in the day, was a legit Luchador.

 

And La Parka was a much better worker than Chavo in every aspect.

 

He had an edge promo-wise because he spoke English better than the Luchadores (save Eddie). He didn't necessarily have more charisma, though. Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and La Parka had more in that respect. And La Parka had a full body suit on, and we couldn't even see his face.

 

I stopped paying much attention when he claimed Chavo was one of the best cruiserweights of all time. If he'd called him one of his favourite cruiserweights of all time then it wouldn't be a big deal because everyone has their own tastes, but Chavo just isn't good enough to be in a credible top-10 of all time great cruiserweight wrestlers. There are too many way more talented wrestlers, in the US alone before you get into other countries, who smoke Chavo in every department. But when you start claiming Dean Malenko isn't a cruiserweight and claiming other cruiserweights aren't really cruiserweights, then you're impossible take seriously and give your opinion any credence.

 

Strictly speaking, I can see definition like that, but it depends on what your defintion of cruiserweight is. If you exclusive non-high-flying, non-North-American workers, that would be the Modern definition of a cruiserweight. But like you said, you exclude Dean Maleno, Chris Benoit, maybe even La Parka.