RW Forced Chemistry Discussion

[darthsiddus2]

y'know I honestly didn't think people would forget about the Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi matches.... those two had amazing chemistry! anyway I personally will not be using this feature as I don't think its all that important. maybe if I actually have the attention span to start a diary I may use it

[praguepride]

<p>On a scale of 1 - 10 on the "bent out of shape scale" I'm a 2 for most people, a 5 for TEW in general.</p><p> </p><p>

I'm sad that Adam caved to pressure (probably not even from a majority, but just a very vocal minority) and released a feature he's not proud about. Congrtaulations, you made a great developer feel like a sellout.</p><p> </p><p>

As for how people use it, I really don't care, that's the '2' on the scale, and that is mainly from #2 and #3. Boring booking, and the loss of that wonderful chaos that was such an intregal part of the game, and chemistry notes are no longer special. It was exciting before to realize "ha! Their main event has terriible chemistry, what will he do now?" but now there's always the doubt that says "maybe they modded it in"...</p><p> </p><p>

I know that was always the case with stats and match grades etc, but I always felt Chemistry, as an extension of Destiny was "off-limits" so people couldn't fake it. Now that they can and will, chemistry notes have lost that golden veneer of being beyond the grasp of the player.</p><p> </p><p>

I feel like you might as well just let players pick the grades they get from their matches <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p>

"Oh, Flair vs. Steamboat, that's an A* match, Big Show vs. Cena will be a 'B', Rock vs. Hogan will be an 'A'..."</p>

[Eisen-verse]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="praguepride" data-cite="praguepride" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It was exciting before to realize "ha! Their main event has terriible chemistry, what will he do now?"</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Agreed on this one. One of my favorite parts of the game is not knowing who will work together and who will not. Roughly, While it sucked, Lead Belly and Grease Hogg had terrible chemistry as competitors in my PSW diary which led me to never really have them face off despite being entrentched in a huge feud with eachother. Yes, it sucked cause I couldn't go ahead with plans, however, it seemed more realistic, as a booker, to have to roll with what is given to you instead of being able to pre-set everything in your favor. </p><p> </p><p> I see why some may want this feature. I Guess, for me at least, I'm going to stay away from it. </p><p> </p><p> Great work, though, Adam.</p>

[Bigpapa42]

<p>If this is used carefully and judiciously, then this is a good thing, I think. Like anything, if its not used as intended, then it becomes a negative to a mod rather than a positive. </p><p> </p><p>

I think I would avoid using it in diary games, for obvious reasons, but might make occassional use of it for non-diary games. Just to ensure a key feud doesn't get ruined with negative chemistry, but beyond that.... Probably not...</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="praguepride" data-cite="praguepride" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm sad that Adam caved to pressure (probably not even from a majority, but just a very vocal minority) and released a feature he's not proud about. Congrtaulations, you made a great developer feel like a sellout.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Please don't put words into my mouth. I personally won't be using the feature, but I can see why people would - I am certainly not ashamed of having written a good feature that helps the people who wanted it and has no impact on those who don't, nor do I see it as selling out.</p>

[Self]

<p>Switching back to the 'who has good/bad chemistry' dispute, I disagree with whoever suggested JBL & Batista having bad chemistry. Those matches were kinda poor, but given their skills, that's exactly what I'd expect. </p><p> </p><p>

I always thought CW Anderson & Tommy Dreamer had good chemistry. Their ECW PPV matches together were AWESOME whereas apart I always found them so-so. May have been their styles though. </p><p> </p><p>

CM Punk & Kane have had a bunch of bad matches. Again, it could just be a clash of styles, and neither of them are phenomenal on their own, but it seemed extra bad when they faced off.</p>

[praguepride]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>nor do I see it as selling out.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Good <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

[Ping von Erich]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Mr T Jobs To Me" data-cite="Mr T Jobs To Me" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'll go with 2 commentary teams I feel play(ed) off each other well:<p> </p><p> Gorilla Monsoon and Jesse Ventura, <strong>Matt Stryker and Todd Grisham</strong>.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Finally someone else who loves Striker and Grisham. Matt Striker is one of the best color men I've ever heard.</p>

[totti]

Has RVD and Lynn been mentioned yet?

[praguepride]

<p>Anyway, back to the topic at hand:</p><p> </p><p>

Why did Gorilla get the Metzler awards for worst announcer for several years running. Was that while he was next to the Brain or was that before/after?</p>

[alden]

<p>So as far as i can tell it works out like this. Correct me if i am wrong.</p><p> </p><p>

lets take flair vs steamboat. I would not put them as having great chemestry even though they had great matches because 1) they both had great matches all the time with many diffrent people 2) the two did not put on MUCH better matches then they did with other people 3) there skills would allow them to have great matches on there own.</p><p> </p><p>

now lets take string and flair i would put them as good chemestry not great for the following reasons 1) sting was pretty new at the start of there matches and he did not have a huge track record at that point yet 2) sting vs flair was the best matches of his carrier at that point 3) i don't think STING had the skillset at that point to get a great match out of everyone. Flair yes had all the three things but he did have to carry sting somewhat.....so is that what it was? was it flair carrying sting to a great feud or would that be chemestry?</p>

[darthsiddus2]

If from what I understand what chemistry is you'd be right Aiden.

[BuddyGarner]

I hope that the cornellverse tag teams like the Vessey's, Tokyo Express, Young Guns have excellent chemistry when teaming together. So that it's a big deal when the reunite or an explanation of why Bryan and Larry keep teaming together despite their massive skill difference.

[Self]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BuddyGarner" data-cite="BuddyGarner" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I hope that the cornellverse tag teams like the Vessey's, Tokyo Express, Young Guns have excellent chemistry when teaming together. So that it's a big deal when the reunite or an explanation of why Bryan and Larry keep teaming together despite their massive skill difference.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Tag Team Experience not enough?</p>

[Eisen-verse]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="totti" data-cite="totti" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25438" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Has RVD and Lynn been mentioned yet?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> On top of that, Jerry Lynn and Justin Credible!!</p>

[Krazy Killian]

<p>Ok so I have a question.</p><p> </p><p>

MCMG - are they big on experience or chemistry? I mean they are well travlled as a team but like still mind bogglingly good!</p><p> </p><p>

Then there's Miz and morrison? They certainly clicked and got the best of each other. Is that plus chemisty?</p>

[alden]

I think mcmg are due to tag team experience.......are they any better as a team then on there own? I have seen some great shelly work in roh by him self.

[The Celt]

<p>I think the problem here is that Chemistry is so subjective in people's minds. One person can totally believe that two workers have chemistry while a another person with the exact same tastes about wrestling could disagree. </p><p> </p><p>

If I could just say one thing to mod makers: <strong>Use this feature sparingly.</strong> </p><p> </p><p>

Chemistry is when two workers produce a match significantly better (or worse) than what their stats should allow them.</p><p> </p><p>

In the RW there are very few examples that are definitely examples of chemistry. </p><p> </p><p>

I think the only example of chemistry that is universally accepted is <strong>Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn.</strong></p><p><strong>

</strong></p><p>

But why is this universally accepted?</p><p> </p><p>

It's key to take some factors into consideration: Both workers were/are very talented regardless of those matches between each other. Both workers already had popularity (at least in RVD's case). And also both worker were producing good matches with other opponents. </p><p> </p><p>

However the reason their are accepted as having chemistry is because their matches together were very significantly better than those against any other opponent. </p><p> </p><p>

Remember at this Van Dam had already feuded and teamed with someone else very talented, over and who had good matches against others in <strong>Sabu.</strong> And while those matches are well received with can see that RVD achieved a even greater grade of match against Jerry Lynn. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

To sum up; should you add chemistry, please remember not to use is casually. It's purpose is to reflect cases where anyone can tell that there is something special is between two workers. The results have to be so clear. <strong>It can't just be used to show that two talented workers would have a good match, </strong> <strong>Its purpose is to show a match that is far beyond the exceptions or capabilities of those involved.</strong></p>

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

To be honest, I hope that destiny-generated good and bad chemistry happens less often in games in TEW2010. In reality, good and even bad chemistry is pretty rare. Most of the time it's up to individual skills. Yet, already in my IWF game, I have at least 12 chemistry notes for good or bad, and I doubt any promotion has ever had so many pairings of good or bad chemistry.

 

Most likely, I would use this feature to set "established" tag teams to neutral to avoid them having bad chemistry when they're supposed to be massively experienced and good together. Then, every once in a while, you have stuff like Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair, or Manami Toyota and Mima Shimoda.

[Self]

Most likely, I would use this feature to set "established" tag teams to neutral to avoid them having bad chemistry when they're supposed to be massively experienced and good together. Then, every once in a while, you have stuff like Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair, or Manami Toyota and Mima Shimoda.

 

If a tag team begins the game with C experience or above (I think it's C) they won't get chemistry notes. No good. No bad. So that should save you some work. If you want an established tag team, set their experience high and you'll be safe.

 

 

EDIT: I'm looking forward to the Dirt Sheet to see just how important (or unimportant) chemistry actually is. Always struck me as a mountains-out-of-molehills argument.

[praguepride]

I do have to concur with Lindsey in that I think what has set so many people off from chemistry is that it does seem to go overboard often.

 

I remember several games where it seems like the whole Main event scene has chemistry with everybody else (good/bad).

 

Then compare it to how rare it is supposed to be in real life and I can see how people would want to edit it. If it was much rarer, I think it would be more special and less regarded as being a critical factor in a game. I imagine if good/bad chemistry was rarer there wouldn't be the need for this feature and thus this thread.

 

Time to hit the suggestion forums again...

[djthefunkchris]

I went to work thinking that this thread might not get the traffic that Adam thought it would at first. I come back to see it's exactly what he thought would happen (It's already at two pages, over the weekend I expect it to double).

 

My thoughts on Chemistry, and any other feature that gives the modders (and players) more controll over their mod/games, is it's a good thing.

 

The personal stuff that was added last time "Steroids, Alcohol, Law Problems, etc" were over-used in some mods, and I might not have figured it out right, but I felt that they kind of "Stacked", and if you over modded your mod, you have people like (in Real World) Batista, RVD, Sabu, etc.. Dieing off within' a couple of years, something that made a real world mod totally un-real (sorry to those modder's who felt so "Strongly" in your opinion of certain folks with hardships). The lesson I learned, and hopefully other's have learned, is that these stats, 0 to 100, does not mean 100 is "Definately a steriod User" as much as it is "Definately going to be a health issue". A 10 is definately a steriod user.... for example. A person that has been to jail a couple times, does not constitute a 100 for law problems... and depending on how serious their offence's were, it might not even be something you would rate over 10.

 

With Chemistry, my main fear is that people will go "Oh, I'm going to have to use this to it's fullest potential!" and start giving 100's of chemistry stats for everyone they think they know well enough to utilize it for. The option to "Not" use it gives me confidence that I will be able to correct this without any problem in any mod I play. I would be really pressed to play a mod that had like 100 of these set. I can understand a few, but I wouldn't over-use it.

 

Alot of these features that have been talked about, people keep bringing up historical mods utilizing them. In my opinion, less is going to be more with quite a bit of them. It will make them more special in the long run, and even more noticeable, especially to people that would "remember" these things. Of course I believe Historical mods have alot more information to work with.

 

I also dissagree with Derek_b about chemistry never being able to change.... that the only reason it appears that way is because they become more skilled. I know this is a true statement when talking about TEW (a game). However, It's only my opinion, but I believe people can have bad or good chemistry at different parts in their lives. I look around me, think of past and present and can think of plenty of personal experience's that proove this to me. In game however, it doesn't... Which is why I only consider using this feature in the most extreme case's.

[lazorbeak]

I always look at chemistry through EWR-tinted glasses, since it obviously didn't exist back in those days. Basically if EWR thought the match quality should be great and it wasn't, you've got bad chemistry. If it's somehow really good despite what would ordinarily be a clash in styles, that's good chemistry. So, take Jericho and RVD, guys that in EWR had brawling stats in the 50's and 60's and aerial stats in the 75-85 range. Based on EWR you'd think those two would have a great match, but their actual encounters were always lukewarm at best.

 

From that EWR example, I always thought there was a decent argument for chemistry for teams that should clash but worked out pretty well. Kane and X-Pac is an example of a team that never impressed in EWR, but in reality the two put on pretty good matches, while their post-breakup feud and everything X-Pac did afterwards was absolutely terrible. The Hardy Boyz are another team that were different enough stylistically and seemed to gel to the point that they looked like they might have been main event ready in 2001, but by spring of 2003 Jeff was out of the company and Matt was peaking as a midcard comedy heel act.

 

The problem with most people's examples is it's really hard to say when the top wrestlers in the world have great chemistry with someone, because they tend to have great matches anyway. I mean how do you prove Chris Jericho or Kurt Angle or Shawn Michaels had good chemistry with someone when they put on amazing matches with damn near everyone?

 

On the other hand, look at somebody like Lex Luger. Never immensely talented, but with the right opponent he could pull out a great match. When Luger's suddenly a snowflake machine there's a pretty good chance you're looking at some kind of positive chemistry.

[foolinc]

I went to work thinking that this thread might not get the traffic that Adam thought it would at first. I come back to see it's exactly what he thought would happen (It's already at two pages, over the weekend I expect it to double).

 

My thoughts on Chemistry, and any other feature that gives the modders (and players) more controll over their mod/games, is it's a good thing.

 

The personal stuff that was added last time "Steroids, Alcohol, Law Problems, etc" were over-used in some mods, and I might not have figured it out right, but I felt that they kind of "Stacked", and if you over modded your mod, you have people like (in Real World) Batista, RVD, Sabu, etc.. Dieing off within' a couple of years, something that made a real world mod totally un-real (sorry to those modder's who felt so "Strongly" in your opinion of certain folks with hardships). The lesson I learned, and hopefully other's have learned, is that these stats, 0 to 100, does not mean 100 is "Definately a steriod User" as much as it is "Definately going to be a health issue". A 10 is definately a steriod user.... for example. A person that has been to jail a couple times, does not constitute a 100 for law problems... and depending on how serious their offence's were, it might not even be something you would rate over 10.

 

With Chemistry, my main fear is that people will go "Oh, I'm going to have to use this to it's fullest potential!" and start giving 100's of chemistry stats for everyone they think they know well enough to utilize it for. The option to "Not" use it gives me confidence that I will be able to correct this without any problem in any mod I play. I would be really pressed to play a mod that had like 100 of these set. I can understand a few, but I wouldn't over-use it.

 

Alot of these features that have been talked about, people keep bringing up historical mods utilizing them. In my opinion, less is going to be more with quite a bit of them. It will make them more special in the long run, and even more noticeable, especially to people that would "remember" these things. Of course I believe Historical mods have alot more information to work with.

 

I also dissagree with Derek_b about chemistry never being able to change.... that the only reason it appears that way is because they become more skilled. I know this is a true statement when talking about TEW (a game). However, It's only my opinion, but I believe people can have bad or good chemistry at different parts in their lives. I look around me, think of past and present and can think of plenty of personal experience's that proove this to me. In game however, it doesn't... Which is why I only consider using this feature in the most extreme case's.

 

DOTT is in good hands then if you are the one taking it into TEW 2010. I agree completely that forced chemistry should be used in only extreme cases.

[James Casey]

Luger's not necessarily a great example. In his prime in WCW, he was motivated, athletic and charismatic: In other words, he could put on a decent match with almost anyone. Luger had The Look, which got him places, but he wouldn't have made it as far as he did without the talent to at least partly back it up.