Chyna

[The Celt]

So I've youtubing the WWF in 2000 alot recently, and one person sticks out like a sore thumb to me in this person: Chyna

 

Why?

 

Because during her matches I hear a sound unlike any other I've ever heard in a wrestling crowd before: Female belief. It's the amazing sound of women going wild for one of their own in the ring, something I've just never heard like that before. It's truly incredible. It's a complete different pop to the normal one, where high pitch screams go over the normal roars of the guys.

 

And it has to be said Chyna deserved her support. You know for years some people have seriously ragged on Chyna for just stupid stuff, such as her muscular look but aronud 2000 I honestly think Chyna was a complete package.

 

She had the in-ring skills, she really did. Some guys will argue that no woman can match men skill for skill in the ring for a number of reasons, with the main point being that women just don't have the strength to hit cool moves. Guess what? Chyna could overhead press and powerbomb the hell out of guys around the 220 pound mark like Eddie Guerrero. They're all plenty of guys who couldn't even do that. At the same time she could spice things up with her famous back-flip elbow into the corner.

 

She had the character. She partnership and feud with Eddie Guerrero created massive belief with her fans. She had already been seen in a cool light thanks to DX, but her gruff Amazon character was far more a heel sided thing. However, her transformation in a Mamacita opened up fans eyes: Guys liked the far more femme looking look Chyna as she looked so much hotter and Girls could relate far more to her now that looked more normal, not as a woman of the unattainable body. So now she also had the look. Also Eddie's turn on her created massive sympathy for her character as everyone, but esspecially the girls, could feel for the girl being betrayed by the Latin Lover Latino Heat Eddie Guerrero. And the great thing it wasn't a one way street designed to just get "a woman" over, Eddie got huge heat for the entire storyline.

 

She had the entrance. Who doesn't mark for her Rocket Launcher pryo thing? That thing was amazing and is one of those things that just gets the crowd excited.

 

 

Was she World champ material? Maybe, maybe not. But just the idea that she could have been makes the woman a legend. I mean how many guys who are so beloved never held the big one? Arn Anderson and Ted Dibaise for Lord's sake! The Bottom line is Chyna was a massive unique draw that was easily as solid a midcarder as anyone in the WWF, and I think it's a real shame that politics forced her out of the game.

[CQI13]

Women should fight women. And as far as politics, she wasn't exactly an innocent bystander.

[Self]

I liked her in hindsight. At the time I was a teenager getting to grips with just how frustrating women could be, so I kinda hated her, but looking back I dig it. Variety is the spice of life and she was different. A special attraction.

[cappyboy]

You know, Brother Celt, I hadn't ever really thought about it. But you have something here. And here's another little nugget. Figure that many of those women marking for Chyna were in their 20's and early 30's. You know who that makes them in wrestling demographic terms? The little girls and preteens who marked for Wendi Richter during the early Wrestlemania era.

 

I've always figured that base faded away when women's wrestling was minimized in the 90's and early part of the millenials. It never occurred to me that they and their little sisters/nieces might have been the women backing Chyna at her height. And I'm sure there's a decent size chunk of the Richter base that didn't either. Many times when I mention wrestling to women old enough to have been Richter fans, they lament that there isn't a figure like her on the modern landscape.

 

Then again, with the political failings Brother CQ was pointing out, who can blame me for overlooking this side of Chyna's legacy? Yet it looks like that wasn't fair of me. With where Chyna was at her height, you could probably make a case she was the spiritual successor to Richter. And if one's willing to go there, your description of her as a legend isn't anywhere near as ridiculous as it might sound at first blush.

[praguepride]

Women should fight women. And as far as politics, she wasn't exactly an innocent bystander.

 

What's wrong with a woman fighting a man. I can see Chyna going toe to toe with more people then a tiny spot monkey like Rey Mysterio.

 

If Rey Mysterio could every be considered a "credible threat" against the big boys, then Chyna could too.

 

I'll agree that she was an oddity. She was huge, but still in a feminine way. She was beefy, but not like "Amazing Kong" beefy. She was muscled more like a man (which makes sense considering the amount of 'roids she pumped) but I wouldn't have had any qualms over her competing in the men's league.

 

Now, on the flipside before you brand me a feminist or anything, I don't believe 90% of women wrestlers should compete against men. I don't really believe in the concept of "waif fu". I was a wrestler in high school and I still remember how important even a few pounds made in a match.

 

A bit of a spoiler but in this final season of Dollhouse (a tv show which was rife with "waif fu") the final Big Bad just schooled the main female character by using his mass. She'd do some kind of flying kick, he'd catch it and just slam her against the ground, stayed in close and just used his weight and power to beat her down to the ground.

 

Anyway, my point is that if I'm supposed to treat anything in the ring as being serious, they've gotta make at least an effort to be serious. Having midgets and guys weighing less then me going toe-to-toe with massive mounds of beef like The Great Khali just doesn't compute in my book. And in general, female wrestlers tend to be on the smaller size. However, if a serious slab of female beef comes along, I don't believe gender in and of itself means anything. During high school I wrestled a girl and I'm not ashamed to say she whupped the tar out of me. She was a 2-time national champion and I was just some kind from a po-dunk town. Gender meant nothing because we were in the same weight class and she was more skilled then I was. Plain and simple.

 

 

Man that went on waaay too long....

 

tl;dr: Gender doesn't matter, but size definitely counts.

[PeterHilton]

Then again, with the political failings Brother CQ was pointing out, who can blame me for overlooking this side of Chyna's legacy? Yet it looks like that wasn't fair of me. With where Chyna was at her height, you could probably make a case she was the spiritual successor to Richter. And if one's willing to go there, your description of her as a legend isn't anywhere near as ridiculous as it might sound at first blush.

 

In a few years, Trish Stratus will be inducted into the HOF. And when it happens, the WWE will present her as the "greatest women's wrestler ever" or at least "of the modern era."

 

But as much as I love Trish, and respected her for the all-around worker she became and for her ability to draw, it really will be a shame that Chyna will never get her due because of the personal issues she had backstage.

 

She was as over as any woman in the history of the industry ever has been and was almost completely unique as a character.

[brashleyholland]

I saw *that* video of her and Sean Waltman.

 

Any memories I had of her in a wrestling ring have unfortunatelly been burned out of my mind.

[praguepride]

In a few years, Trish Stratus will be inducted into the HOF. And when it happens, the WWE will present her as the "greatest women's wrestler ever" or at least "of the modern era."

 

But as much as I love Trish, and respected her for the all-around worker she became and for her ability to draw, it really will be a shame that Chyna will never get her due because of the personal issues she had backstage.

 

She was as over as any woman in the history of the industry ever has been and was almost completely unique as a character.

 

Wasn't Trish on one of the celebrity survivor thingies?

 

Also for those of us who don't know (i.e. me) could someone sum up the politics thing people keep talking about?

 

And on another talking point, I think Lita was the only ever credible female wrestler I ever saw. She was a pretty gifted luchadore (I think?) but she had a hard, punk edge to her that made her whipping the piss out of the middleweight or lightweight workers believable.

[CQI13]

If Rey Mysterio could every be considered a "credible threat" against the big boys, then Chyna could too.

 

 

Another person I just can't see as a credible threat. Can he surprise someone larger than him? Absolutely. On a consistent basis? I would say no.

 

I think it was Kevin Sullivan who described the best intergender match he ever saw. The bell rang, they met in the middle of the ring, man hits a clothesline...1-2-3.

 

Because ultimately, if she were to go toe to toe with a guy, then anyone she faces who is a woman would be expected to lose (unless of course you're saying that this second woman could go toe to toe with the guys as well).

 

Not to discredit Women's Wrestling, as I enjoyed Trish's work (and others). The Knockouts were a reason to watch TNA. But the mix and match doesn't work for my taste.

 

EDIT:

 

As for the politics, my understanding is that Chyna was dating Triple H, until around the time of the Stephanie/Test marriage storyline. At which point Stephanie started dating Triple H. After whatever backstage incidents involving Chyna & Triple H after the break up, she was wished well on her future endeavors.

 

And my response to that is, be an adult and a professional about things, and move on. If she had done that, she would have been with the company much longer.

[PeterHilton]

Wasn't Trish on one of the celebrity survivor thingies?

 

Also for those of us who don't know (i.e. me) could someone sum up the politics thing people keep talking about?

 

And on another talking point, I think Lita was the only ever credible female wrestler I ever saw. She was a pretty gifted luchadore (I think?) but she had a hard, punk edge to her that made her whipping the piss out of the middleweight or lightweight workers believable.

 

I don't know how old you were when you watched Lita, but she's without a doubt the most overrated female worker of her time...sloppy as hell, incredibly unsafe, and her matches barely made sense. After a while I watched just waiting for her to break her neck.

 

The politics boil down to this: she wanted huge sums of money (basically...if I draw like one of the boys then pay me like one of the boys) for a female worker.

 

Also, it was probably incredibly awkward that her real life boyfriend left her to start sleeping with the owner's daughter.

[Remianen]

tl;dr: Gender doesn't matter, but size definitely counts.

 

I don't think I've believed this a day in my life. Guess it would help to note that, as a "little guy", I've never experienced this being the case either. I've seen a 5'6, 135lb woman beat a 6'3, 260lb man so badly, HE tried to press charges on HER (and later filed a lawsuit against her AND the NYPD, after they laughed at him).

 

But it's what people want to believe so I guess it's a universal truth.

 

And while I agree that Chyna was an exceptional worker in her time, I think saying she really had in-ring skills requires a bit more suspension of disbelief than I can muster. Then again, maybe that's a question of perspective as well.

[PeterHilton]

And while I agree that Chyna was an exceptional worker in her time, I think saying she really had in-ring skills requires a bit more suspension of disbelief than I can muster. Then again, maybe that's a question of perspective as well.

 

To be fair, you're a hardcore fan of women's wrestling and have probbaly watched literally hundreds (thousands?) more hours than the average fan.

 

You might just be harder to impress than most.

[FINisher]

The older I've become the more I've respected and liked Chyna. If I were to list the top3 of WWE/WWF divas they'd be Lita, Trish and Chyna but that's off-topic. She was entertaining and it's quite sad to hear the news about her recent years and so..

 

Here's funny Whose Line Is It Anyway clips btw, Chyna was a quest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMeFvY5IDGc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM8vJ-Ds3LI&feature=related

[Blackman]

I didn't really think she was that awesome. She had an annoying voice and frankly, I wouldn't want to see her work that much.

 

Sure, she had the awesome pyro, but I didn't like her. No, I've not seen that 'special' tape. No, I have absolutely no prejudice against women. But still. Of course she doesn't fit in the mental image of a female we all have. I don't care about that. But as far as likeability goes, she doesn't score high.

 

Mainly because of her voice. Like i said: really annoying. She couldn't act that well either. Lacks the charisma. Etc etc.

[cappyboy]

In a few years, Trish Stratus will be inducted into the HOF. And when it happens, the WWE will present her as the "greatest women's wrestler ever" or at least "of the modern era."

 

And if they go with "of the modern era", it will be hard to argue with them doing that. Of the post-90's women the WWE base is likely to know, you'd be hard pressed to find better than Trish. In the overall grand scheme of things, I can see arguments against that. I expect Remi to show up with some of them shortly. For this particular segment of the wrestling world though, very reasonable.

 

For what she was able to do to keep women's wrestling afloat and relevant in as down as period as her height was, Trish very much deserves that HOF spot. That was no mean feat. Not to mention that when you consider the art of expressive selling, you could easily go back several decades before finding a woman as prominent who was as adept at it as Trish. There aren't many women I saw during the 90's and early millenials I want to see against the women of the past. But both Trish and Chyna would be on that list.

[PeterHilton]

And if they go with "of the modern era", it will be hard to argue with them doing that. Of the post-90's women the WWE base is likely to know, you'd be hard pressed to find better than Trish. In the overall grand scheme of things, I can see arguments against that. I expect Remi to show up with some of them shortly. For this particular segment of the wrestling world though, very reasonable.

 

For what she was able to do to keep women's wrestling afloat and relevant in as down as period as her height was, Trish very much deserves that HOF spot. That was no mean feat. Not to mention that when you consider the art of expressive selling, you could easily go back several decades before finding a woman as prominent who was as adept at it as Trish. There aren't many women I saw during the 90's and early millenials I want to see against the women of the past. But both Trish and Chyna would be on that list.

 

Totally agree. I wasn't trying to say Trish doesn't deserve the accolades she gets. She was amazing. IMO she was the best women's wrestler in the US post-Hulkamania era.

 

Just saying that it's a shame that Chyna will most likely NEVER get any acclaim, and she was one of the most over performers during one of the E's hottest periods.

[The Celt]

Well, this changed into a can girls fight guys thread fairly neatly

 

Well, if we're going do this then I'll throw up some points:

 

1. Sports Entertainment, if not wrestling, is fantasy. If Rey Mysterio can beat Great Khali, then is it really impossible for women to beat men? (I'm a Mysterio supporter btw, so I don't mean that in a negative way).

Sub-point: Our view of wrestler's sizes are highly twisted. For instance guys like Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels are both thought of as paving the way for smaller workers when they're 6'2 and 6'1 respectively. Meanwhile Jericho is thought of as average in a way, when the guy is 5'9 (although he's billed as 6'0). Another example of our view of height being twisted is that my countryman Finlay is billed at 6'2 when Dave is actually 5'10. Size can matter, but keep it in perspective. One final thing is I don't think Rob Van Dam or Sabu were every thought of as tall, in fact I believe Lawler once referred to Sabu as a midget, although both are 6'0 and Lawler is the exact same height.

 

2. 45% of domestic abuse cases in the US are women beating up men. (I believe I saw that statistic in a documentary and was shocked by it at the time so that's why I remember it) So actually women beat guys in RL all the time, but it's a bit taboo.

 

3. If a girl has the talent and wants to work guys, It can work. Lufisto is an amazing example. The girl is 135lbs and just 5'3 but you put her in a match with a monster like the Necro Butcher and she can make you believe she can win. Lufisto knows how to play things as a man against a woman, because really it's classic underdog vs big man stuff just mixed up a bit. Lufisto will tough out some things, like trading punches, but she knows to let the a man win most of those exchanges. However, what Lufisto will do to win is beat the guy at wrestling , using quick kicks, holds and aerial style moves to wear him down. And the crowd does believe, proven by her large fan base and the amount of titles she's got, including the CZW Ironman title where she beat a man for the title and also defended against men successfully.

 

 

4. People want to see Men Vs Women. Not most of the time nor all the time...but people have about 10 to 20% room in there hearts for these matches. Why? Because there always unique. Lufisto is once again a good example. When fighting guys, especially dickish heel types such as Sexxxy Eddie, she allows guys to mock her as a woman. So for instance in a match versus Sexxy Eddie (who had turned heel on her) Eddie was slapping her ass, pinching her t*ts and thrusting his groin all up in her face, basically doing everything he could to get across the point non-verbally that a woman could beat a man. Cue the testicular claw and other humorous stuff that could only be done in a man vs woman match.

Subpoint: Men versus woman can also lead to very interesting stories. 40% of those who use WWE's universe social networking site are females. That's a big demographic. And one way to make that demographic happy is to make them feel empowered. In the past the classic face saves valet from heel story could be told all the time. Today, woman want to see one of their own stand up for themselves. So screw the face, valet becomes wrestler and sticks it to the heel for a big pop.

Take Lita as an example; was she sloppy? Yeah. Could she carry a match? Nope, which was disappointing especially towards her later years when she was considered a "Veteran". However she still has tremendous value. Back in the days of Team Xtreme, she wasn't just the Hardy Boyz valet or manager, she was an equal on the team...and girls loved that.

I mean think about that. 1. Lita was unique, non-cookie cutter girl. She had a punk attire but with the woman's touch, in the famous thong above the trousers look. Girls loved that because it was fresh and empowering. 2 She got to do cool stuff like Moonsault, which girls had never gotten to do before. Girls love that...Girls will pay money to see that. 3. Lita was an equal on a team that included that dreamy Jeff Hardy...and Matt was kinda cute too Girls like hawt young girls like the Hardyz were in the early 2000s and will pay to see fellow girls interact with them , as it allow those paying customers to live vicariously through that female worker, in this case Lita.

 

 

5. Trish Stratus is actually a bad example of female empowerment in a way, or at least she was in her early career. Now don't get me wrong, Trish is a MASSIVE role model to women in the business, but at the start of her career you'd have never have guessed that. She debuted as the manager of Test and Albert...T&A. T&A? Yeah, girls feel empowered by that I mean Trish's character was...let's face it, a sl*t to begin with, but something that evolved over time. I mean her character was banging Vince McMahon and what not...not buying this?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkFaLoL1KZ8

 

No woman watching the video is going to feel empowered. They're going to feel like Trish is being used as an object. I mean, I guess you could use girls in that way, but you really need to balance them against girls who will stand on the girl fans side of the field. Thus Trish doing that kind of stuff was ok because women like Chyna got to win the intercontinental title.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bottom line: Creatively, throwing women into the mix makes for interesting stuff. Personally I would love to do a serious tag team with a female worker. Could you imagine a Man Woman tag team as Tag Team champions? Play it right and I think it'd be money.

[Nedew]

To add an underlying tone of chauvinism to the thread, she was pretty hot too.

[The Celt]

To add an underlying tone of chauvinism to the thread, she was pretty hot too.

 

Honestly, that another good point. In 1999 and 2000 girls wanted to be Chyna, to be strong like her and and live as equal in a previously male dominated world.

 

 

...

 

 

...

 

 

Guys wanted to hit that.

 

But that's a good thing Girl would pay to support her, guys would pay to stare at her

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUb0Wgbp7VY

 

When Chyna looked like that /\ , i'd have hit it

 

EDIT: Seriously, if you have time take a look at that video...it's Chyna and Too Vs the Radicalz at wrestlemanina. Man, when Chyna finally gets Eddie alone in the ring you can feel the female energy in the arena.

[PeterHilton]

Besides her looks, that match also illustrates the point that Chyna because of her size does actually look believable against Malenko and Eddie.

[Nedew]

JR amuses me in that video. Even he comments on Chyna looking good!

[praguepride]

@Lita: You know, I don't actually think I watched her wrestle. I just remember her running in and helping out the Hardy's and she had a pretty good hurricarana.

 

@Trish: Man. I missed a lot. I ONLY saw her as the T&A manager and in her very early attempts at wrestling and when I hear people shower accolaides on her, I have to stop myself from laughing. I *know* she toughened up and put her nose to the grindstone and pretty much developed from Tits & Ass to Totally Awesome, but I can't hear her name without thinking about the blonde bimbo who's chest looked like it might explode into silly putty at any moment

 

@Size doesn't matter: If a 260 lbs guy let a 130 lb woman beat the crap out of him, then I've got three explanations:

 

1) He didn't fight back. Understandable especially considering the courts severe gender bias against men

 

2) He was a complete pile of lard. It's easy to overpower a guy who's morbidly obese

 

3) He was a complete tard and/or she was a highly trained fighter.

 

Yes I'm sure that a 4'11" woman who's a world champion kick boxer could clean my clock and the clocks of 90% of the men here despite size, but you match her against even a moderatly trained fighter and I'd put a sizable sum on the guy.

 

Now, there are exceptions, of course. Certain styles like Wing Chun (I know I spelled that one wrong, the one that was taught to Chinese nuns), Krav Maga, Judo, and BJJ are some prime examples where they are taught specifically how to counter size and weight advantages.

 

But my rebuttle would be the fact that they have to be taught specifically how to counter size & weight should indicate how important those are in a fight. I had a buddy who was a better fighter then me, a great Tai Kwon Do guy (had lightning kicks) but I was a grappler and I outweighed him by about 40 lbs. If he didn't knock me out with the one kick, I'd win, plain and simple. I'd buryin him with my weight and either punch him out or choke him out, and there'd be nothing he could do about it.

[Hyde Hill]

Also don't forget in a "real" fight so no rules or even a semi organised street fight Aggression counts for a lot especially when both are untrained/not fully trained.

[lazorbeak]

I was actually thinking about what a waste Chyna was the other day when looking at putting my own touches on the screwjob mod from 08. Chyna was briefly the #1 contender to the title and before Mankind and Triple H ended up taking her spot, they briefly advertised Austin vs. Chyna, and she was getting RIDICULOUS reactions. I really think WWF completely missed the boat by not at least teasing a Triple H vs. Chyna match for the WWF title at a pay per view. I'm not saying she should win, since her mic skills were poor and she'd have to rely on the "underdog shtick until fans were tired of it (see Rey Mysterio's run for details), but WWF could've easily gotten a very big pay day out of a second rate PPV like Armageddon by having Triple H vs. Chyna as the main event. Hell, don't even put it on last if you don't trust their workrate: I think it would be the kind of thing that could have generated a lot of interest, especially if you at least teased a "shock" win.

 

Not to take away from Lita or Trish, but neither were ever going to have that sort of crossover potential.

 

Horrible life choices aside, Chyna could've been a big draw.

[GruntMark]

 

2) He was a complete pile of lard. It's easy to overpower a guy who's morbidly obese

 

3) He was a complete tard and/or she was a highly trained fighter.

 

You just nailed the TEW reasons why Alicia Strong is allowed to win tons intergender matches in my USPW.

 

Oh, we're talking about Chyna? I never cared for her. Wasnt that interesting cutting a promo and rarely felt like a credible threat to beat any guy, mostly cause she so rarely did. Im guessing cause no one wanted to lose to the "the chick." Made her more of a sideshow than anything.

 

Trish however deserves the accolades she gets, and probably warrants a place in the HOF for defining womens wrestling in the WWE for a significant period of time.