Genadi Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I didn't want to choke up Jimmy's mod thread with this discussion but think it's an important one to have. Then you agree that they should be listed as National, with limitations in place to keep their ratings and attendances realistic? I'm not sure tbh, I honestly haven't tried this mod yet so it's hard to say what I think would need changing. When you change one thing in a mod it can effect alot of different things you don't expect, I'm sure Jimmy knows this he's been on this mod for a good year now. I'd have to really test and know alot about a mod to make a decision like that. Because no amount of mod tweaking - unless you make everybody in the database a friend of somebody on the TNA roster AND put on a string of absolutely awesome shows AND give them a lot of money - will allow the user to sign anybody to written contracts with TNA at Cult level. That's not true, I noted just a few of the reasons workers won't sign written deals at Cult. The big names TNA signed on written deals were all a little unique in their own way.... Sting, stated many times he signed and resigned out of personal loyalty to the Jarretts (plus his contract was big money for his schedule). Kurt Angle, His popularity takes a hit as a result of his drug scandal , he's suspended, walks out on WWE and has a falling out with Vince. He's extremely driven and heads to Japan for a stint but then is lured back to the US, only after a big money contract (Including a main event title run and CC) from TNA. Both of those scenarios are reflected in TEW very well and would play out almost identically most times with a good mod. Saying that though.... The one that does stand out is Hogan, I'd say at the lowest his popularity could be set at B+. I'm not sure if a Cult promotion could sign a name that big under any circumstances? Maybe the Hulk signing signifies TNA's jump to National in TEW? What this thread needs is some Ryland insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Kane Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Its most certainly a National company, National TV, House shows... PPVs... The question at this point ... is it international ? has TV & PPV deals across the world, tours world wide (or atleast half as much as WWE does), and it has talent that has global popularity in large number since the january 4th. Do they draw National numbers? No... live attendance isnt even close... so in TEW terms? i dono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigas Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 TNA is cult. Under Donners logic, USPW should be national because they have "Hulk Hogan." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabataged Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 TNA is cult. Under Donners logic, USPW should be national because they have "Hulk Hogan." This is a touchy subject that has happened the last couple of years to be honest. I have got into several debates on this subject. I think they are National in terms of TEW. All though they are about on the same level as ECW and they were never considered National either. I say national because they run some house shows, have guys signed to written deals where they can't just show up in WWE, run ppv's, and a national TV show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Macho Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 National, its the only way you can play the company realistically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basmat01 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 How many guys have written Deals with them? Most of the midcard and undercard still do work the indys to make ends meet To me 4 guys on written deals doesnt make them a national company. they would be on the high end of Cult minimum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigas Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 The maker of the game said TNA was cult in TEW terms so Im not sure why its being argued still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genadi Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's being discussed not argued, quite well so far to I might add some good points raised on both ends. I can't remember Adam saying anything about them being at Cult lately or since the Hogan signing anyway. I personally think at the high end of Cult like Basmat said but I think the discussion should be had to help not just mod makers but players understand the logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorpio3060 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 How many Cverse cult promotions start with guys on written deals? All of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donners Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 That's not true, I noted just a few of the reasons workers won't sign written deals at Cult. The big names TNA signed on written deals were all a little unique in their own way.... Sting, stated many times he signed and resigned out of personal loyalty to the Jarretts (plus his contract was big money for his schedule). Kurt Angle, His popularity takes a hit as a result of his drug scandal , he's suspended, walks out on WWE and has a falling out with Vince. He's extremely driven and heads to Japan for a stint but then is lured back to the US, only after a big money contract (Including a main event title run and CC) from TNA. Both of those scenarios are reflected in TEW very well and would play out almost identically most times with a good mod. Saying that though.... The one that does stand out is Hogan, I'd say at the lowest his popularity could be set at B+. I'm not sure if a Cult promotion could sign a name that big under any circumstances? Maybe the Hulk signing signifies TNA's jump to National in TEW? What this thread needs is some Ryland insight Put aside the big names. I'm talking about the ability to sign ANY worker to a binding written contract. TNA has done this for years, pulling workers from RoH (and almost all other indi feds these days) and, most importantly, keeping them out of reach of WWE. This is the crucial point. This is a key element of portraying TNA accurately. In real life, whether they are re-signing a worker or signing a new one, they can sign them to what is in TEW a written contract - something that prevents other promotions from being able to steal them for a set period. If TNA is a Cult fed, they cannot do that except in extremely limited circumstances. Therefore, if TNA is in as a Cult fed, they are not being accurately represented. It is then a challenge for the modmaker to balance TNA as a national fed to keep their ratings and attendances realistic. Your own mod has TNA in April 2002, without even a single show to its name, at Cult level (albeit a low Cult level). Do you think that after all the progress they have made in a business, production and exposure over eight years, they should be at exactly the same level? How many guys have written Deals with them? Most of the midcard and undercard still do work the indys to make ends meet To me 4 guys on written deals doesnt make them a national company. they would be on the high end of Cult minimum Virtually all. You think WWE could steal all but four members of the TNA roster whenever they want? Ludicrous. TNA release some of the lower wrestlers to work indy feds, but that does not mean they cannot bar them from doing so - as they showed with RoH. Contracts IRL don't work exactly like those in TEW, you know... Styles and Morgan are on five-year deals, Angle one year, Roode and Storm four years, Anderson one year, Joe several years, Nash one year, ODB several and probably the same through the vast majority of the roster. Only those at the very low end would be on non-binding agreements. The most notable recent examples of people leaving TNA to go to WWE - Gail Kim and Christian - came at the expiry of their contracts. How many Cverse cult promotions start with guys on written deals? All of them. True, but we know for a fact that TNA can continue to sign ANY worker (who is not already under an exclusive deal elsewhere) to a written contract IRL. Playing them realistically requires that ability from the start of the game. How many C-verse Cult promotions air in the US, Canada, UK and Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajde Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 By What Adam has explained the perameters. ROH wouldn't even be cult. From my understanding you need 5000 to get around a C. TNA can't draw that well. I doubt they are even close to National. They are Cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigas Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I have had absolutely no problem signing workers to writen contracts in USPW. Just put more points in the negotiation skills. I havent signed any super over guys, but Samoan Machine and Umaga signed written deals with me, as did Carl Batch, Andre Jones, Sara York and Eugene Williams. And those are the only 6 people Ive signed.. all to written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisKid Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's got to be national Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Macho Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Most of the roster are on written deals, id say 70%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genadi Posted January 31, 2010 Author Share Posted January 31, 2010 Put aside the big names. I'm talking about the ability to sign ANY worker to a binding written contract. TNA has done this for years, pulling workers from RoH (and almost all other indi feds these days) and, most importantly, keeping them out of reach of WWE. This is the crucial point. This is a key element of portraying TNA accurately. I agree this is the crucial point but it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound, in fact it's quite a hazy line. TNA don't have he ability to sign ANY worker to a written deal. Let's take a guy like Nash for example, a guy I'd say around a C+ to B- in pop. For years (I'm unsure about atm) his contract in TNA has been an insiders joke generator... CC, Excl PPA but the ability technically to walk out and show up on RAW a night after going over on a TNA PPV. The press conference might read Hulk Hogan written contract but I guarantee there's about 100 "Get out" clauses that wouldn't be in a WWE contract, that's been the crucial reason Hogan wouldn't sign with Vince he didn't want to be tied up to a company and give them the rights to his ©, even a company the size of WWE. Contracts especially in pro wrestling are a very grey area. Therefore, if TNA is in as a Cult fed, they are not being accurately represented. I disagree, I already explained why it depends on loads of other things. Your own mod has TNA in April 2002, without even a single show to its name, at Cult level (albeit a low Cult level). Do you think that after all the progress they have made in a business, production and exposure over eight years, they should be at exactly the same level? Adam has explained this loads of times, just because they're Cult in '02 and Cult in '10 doesn't mean they haven't grown. A jump from Cult to National is sometimes a 2.0% rise in popularity. In the '02 mod look closeley at TNA's pop, it's set so they are at the bare miminum of Cult, a few bad shows and they're Regional. That's not the case now, in fact a few great shows and they could be National. It should be noted though I think... TNA's growth has been a very gradual grind and they haven't seen their draw power increase substanially even with some huge signings. I made them Cult in the '02 mod for many different reasons, mainly because it fit in with the rest of the mod and ran the best in tests without having to jeopardize other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donners Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I agree this is the crucial point but it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound, in fact it's quite a hazy line. TNA don't have he ability to sign ANY worker to a written deal. Let's take a guy like Nash for example, a guy I'd say around a C+ to B- in pop. For years (I'm unsure about atm) his contract in TNA has been an insiders joke generator... CC, Excl PPA but the ability technically to walk out and show up on RAW a night after going over on a TNA PPV. I don't know what that was based on, because Nash was only in negotiations with WWE towards the expiry of his contract in October 2008. He refused their offer and signed a one-year deal with TNA (which was again extended in October 2009). But they can get the likes of Angle, Styles, Joe and co exclusively, and can force WWE to wait until the end of contracts to be able to try and take them. That is a very key part of running a fed in TEW, I think. The press conference might read Hulk Hogan written contract but I guarantee there's about 100 "Get out" clauses that wouldn't be in a WWE contract, that's been the crucial reason Hogan wouldn't sign with Vince he didn't want to be tied up to a company and give them the rights to his ©, even a company the size of WWE. Contracts especially in pro wrestling are a very grey area. Undoubtedly, but those factors can't be put into a TEW contract. We are left with a fairly black & white situation, and I think the emphasis should be on the ability to protect against the stealing of workers - namely, a TEW written contract. I haven't even made that much of a deal about Hogan, it's more the issue of having somebody like Joe, Daniels, Styles etc have their contract expire, and suddenly be unable to protect them from WWE just because I had a few bad shows and lost momentum, and thus lose my exception to the rule. Adam has explained this loads of times, just because they're Cult in '02 and Cult in '10 doesn't mean they haven't grown. A jump from Cult to National is sometimes a 2.0% rise in popularity. In the '02 mod look closeley at TNA's pop, it's set so they are at the bare miminum of Cult, a few bad shows and they're Regional. That's not the case now, in fact a few great shows and they could be National. It should be noted though I think... TNA's growth has been a very gradual grind and they haven't seen their draw power increase substanially even with some huge signings. I made them Cult in the '02 mod for many different reasons, mainly because it fit in with the rest of the mod and ran the best in tests without having to jeopardize other areas. I said myself that they were a low-level Cult fed in your mod. My point was that their business reach is far beyond what it was then. Back in the weekly PPV days, they probably wouldn't have had the same binding contracts (and lost workers hand-over-fist). Nor did they have the worldwide distribution that they have now. If they are at Cult then and now, that growth in business power is not really reflected. It's a change in drawing power, but still bound by the limitations of being at Cult level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FINisher Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Very low Cult with lots of money and quite high momentum. TNA shouldn't be nowhere near National in any RW mod, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candyman Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Are you kidding? They're not even a high Cult. I'm not convinced they're closer to National than they are to Regional. I'll say the same thing when I explained why ROH were a solid Regional. Internet wrestling fans have no perspective. You think because you know who TNA is, and everybody you know knows TNA, that everybody knows TNA. Trust me, the vast majority of wrestling fans have NO IDEA who or what TNA is. They think it's slang for porn. If they have heard of it, it'd be "isn't that the company that signed Pacman a couple years ago?" If TEW's popularity was based on the internet wrestling community, TNA would be International going on Global. It's not. It's the general population, and there's no way TNA's popularity is in the 70's across the country. Not even close. They're not in the 60's, except for the Southeast. They're basically the same size as USPW, who starts out in the 50's across the country. USPW has about the same number of big names, mostly written contracts, a TV deal, they run house shows, etc. And they're Cult. So is TNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazwefc83 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 They are a nationaly know company who have fans across the world, there becoming very popular in the uk at the minute, but in terms of tew i think they are cult on the verge of going national what the mod makers should do is set up there popularity on percentages and let the game decide there size rather than putting the popularity up or down to effect the size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donners Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 USPW have a small roster, a show on a small network which only airs in the US, no PPVs and negligible TV ratings (about 1/6 of the big two) I'm not sure that's the best comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Just weighing in with some "official" guidance on the matter. TNA are at cult level in TEW terms. Don't forget, TEW is a game that applies certain rules and logic to the real world... people seem to be going "TNA has this TEW feature, the must be National" which is the wrong way of looking at it. TNA is the very definition of a medium size cult company who are still growing. In the US (their main region) they are incapable of selling tickets to any of their big events, which is reason enough to show that they are not a National level powerhouse. It's the main one, the big one and the most logical thing to look at. Trying to check off the things that TNA does in real life as reasons for why you should set their popularity higher is doing it backwards. Written contracts with some top guys is simply a reflection of them being the second biggest company trying to protect their assets. They're big enough (cult) to need to worry about it, but it's little more than ECW being run in a smarter way on the business side of things than it was. House shows... TEW operates in a way that avoids schedule conflicts and in general better than the TEW04 model, which allowed workers to work house shows on a PPA deal. And sign written contracts at almost any level... if we were playing that game, the argument would be trying to set the percentage that TNA would be at, which would be nowhere near the 75% needed to be near National. It would be somewhere around 60% at best. TNA has an international presence thanks to their TV deals, but so does almost every TV show in the world now. Doesn't mean they have huge levels of popularity. The UK is just happy to see wrestling at times... and Europe is the same. The Hulkamania tour in Australia pretty much shows that they are in the same boat... the numbers are misleading in many ways as to the strength of TNA's popularity in any international market. Most WWE fans couldn't even tell you that TNA exists, let alone know anything about them. That is LOW level popularity at best... and should be reflected in the TEW stats. If you try to make a mod where any company can match up their real life numbers with their TEW numbers, you're going to have to make TNA about an 80% across the UK. WWE probably needs to be 100%... and those numbers don't make any logical sense in TEW. So in short, TNA is a cult level company with some overness internationally... but they are NOT as big as many mods are likely to put them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigas Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 USPW have a small roster, a show on a small network which only airs in the US, no PPVs and negligible TV ratings (about 1/6 of the big two) I'm not sure that's the best comparison. USPW pulls 1.xx ratings, the same or better than TNA pulls on their tv show, which is also aired on some small network. Roster size doesnt matter one bit imo. And the PPV thing doesnt really matter since USPW can easily land a PPV deal, and can probably land a PPV deal in Japan with Jade237 ftm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazwefc83 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I believe ur spot on derek, i believe to may people work backwards when it comes to popularity in there mods, the size of a company should be determind by there popularity percentages not adjusting there popularity so it makes them the size they believe they should be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donners Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 USPW pulls 1.xx ratings, the same or better than TNA pulls on their tv show, which is also aired on some small network. Roster size doesnt matter one bit imo. The TEW ratings system is different to the one used IRL, so that's hardly a compelling point. Indeed, according to the "Ratings Explained" box, the IVR is calculated on one whole point per 50,000 viewers. Since Impact gets 1.8 million viewers, that would be a rating of 36, so that's not much of a comparison... If those with knowledge of the game's workings declare that TNA is indeed Cult, then so be it. I just hope that mod makers give them the same attributes which allow USPW to sign at least mid-range workers to written deals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigas Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 If those with knowledge of the game's workings declare that TNA is indeed Cult, then so be it. I just hope that mod makers give them the same attributes which allow USPW to sign at least mid-range workers to written deals. Or you could use the editor and just make it national yourself if you care that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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