The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

I guess there's always Werdum as well. They can play off the rematch aspect and how much of an underdog JDS was for their first fight.

[Fantabulous]

I don't think they'll go with Hendo. I think they're comfortable with Hendo getting the shot at the winner of Jones/Evans and no alternative challenger for the winner of Jones/Evans immediately springs to mind, at least not without putting a contenders fight together at short notice. Dana did say Velasquez/Mir is still on but I don't put a lot of stock in what Dana says anymore. He's said a little too much in the way of hyperbole and definitive statements that end up being reversed a short time later to take it as set in stone that Velasquez/Mir is going to happen. I want Hunt to get the shot because it would be a great story and the very real possibility is there for the upset, but I still think they'll go with the best on-paper contender, as far as recent record goes, and that's Mir.

[HansLanda11]

I wish they would find a way to get Cormier or Barnett out of their Strikeforce/Showtime contract and throw one of them in there against Dos Santos. To me either of those two vs. Dos Santos is more interesting than having him beat up Hunt, Fedor (lmao), or Hendo.

[damonster]

gonna have to say most likly werdum. but what will happen to the primetime?

[ampulator]

Why not Frank Mir? Velasquez just lost, Werdum just came back with one loss to Overeem and one win over Nelson... I can't think of anyone else. Mir should be the logical choice. I don't mind seeing Werdum taking the fight, but I can't see how this ends well for Werdum. My guess is, it's going to go like the his first fight against Dos Santos, or it's going to go down like his fight against Overeem recently.

[Target Practice]

See, I see the exact same thing with Mir. I can't see any way he can beat JDS - Dos Santos' takedown defence is too strong, and there's no doubt that he's capable of knocking Mir out if it stays standing. Unless JDS did something borderline suicidal and jumped into Mir's guard, he's going to win that fight all night long.

 

Plus, look what happens when you put Mir up against guys with good takedown defence and the common sense not to try and grapple with him - remember Mir vs Roy Nelson? Or how about Mirko Cro Cop? Bottom line is, if Mir doesn't get KOed or TKOed (I didn't realise that every fight he's lost has been KO/TKO), the fight ends up sucking.

I'm not totally against Mir getting it, I have no problem with the dude, and you're right, on paper, he's the logical choice. Hell, on paper, he's the only choice - all the other contenders are either coming off a loss or booked for another fight apart from Werdum (who was royally thumped by JDS last time round) and Mark Hunt (whose record isn't exactly world-title material). I just think that if you're trying to put on an entertaining fight where the challenger has a genuine shot at winning the fight, then Mark Hunt is actually your best guy right now. He's nowhere near the best mixed martial artist of the challengers, but I think he matches up best with JDS if you want to put on a fight that people will want to see.

[brashleyholland]

Why not Frank Mir? Velasquez just lost, Werdum just came back with one loss to Overeem and one win over Nelson... I can't think of anyone else. Mir should be the logical choice. I don't mind seeing Werdum taking the fight, but I can't see how this ends well for Werdum. My guess is, it's going to go like the his first fight against Dos Santos, or it's going to go down like his fight against Overeem recently.

 

Mir is absolutely the logical choice. People are only looking at other options because Dana said that Mir/Velasquez will go ahead.

 

It occurred to me yesterday during our podcast that Dana might have made that statement so as not to act before the commission hearing. Imagine if he announced Mir vs JDS, then the commission cleared Overeem of any wrong doing in two weeks time. Nightmare.

[bigtplaystew]

Dana's saying Mir/Cain is on. I think it's a mistake. Putting Mir in the title fight gives you a decent main event that people might still buy. Maybe they are waiting to see if Reem somehow gets in the good graces with the athletic commission but that doesn't seem likely to me at all.

 

It's definitely not going to be Fedor. White has repeatedly said he doesn't want Fedor anymore.

 

Names like Hunt and Werdum are decent talking points if we're just having fun and BSing, but neither of those fighters deserve a UFC heavyweight title shot right now. Plus, one might argue that Mir/Cain is a bigger fight than JDS versus either of those two.

 

The only thing I'm thinking is that they are considering pulling JDS completely, making Cain/Mir the main event, and bumping up another fight to the main card. Giving a shot to someone who doesn't deserve the title just cheapens the belt. It might be the better decision to take the hit on one PPV rather than have the title look bad.

[Fantabulous]

In what may be a portent of things to come for the Juicer, Cyborg failed to get her 1-year suspension reduced, even after coming clean, as it were, and admitting to making a mistake.

 

It's all well and good talking about who 'deserves' a shot at JDS or not, but if only those who 'deserved' a title shot got one, then 2-1 Lesnar doesn't get the shot at Couture and business doesn't go through the roof for UFC. That's not to say that Hunt could do business to that level because very few could, but with Hunt, there is a great story to be told and, more importantly than than, it's a story that sells and the UFC would sell it hard and it would work. It's a story that MMA almost never lets you tell because of the realities of the fight game, but when you get it handed to you, sometimes you just go with it because you realize you're a business first and foremost. Pure sports, yeah, Mir gets the shot. But I'm looking at this as a business decision, and there is a really strong argument that Hunt gets the nod because of what you can do with it and I think JDS/Hunt told right can do far more business than JDS/Mir can.

[ampulator]

See, I see the exact same thing with Mir. I can't see any way he can beat JDS - Dos Santos' takedown defence is too strong, and there's no doubt that he's capable of knocking Mir out if it stays standing. Unless JDS did something borderline suicidal and jumped into Mir's guard, he's going to win that fight all night long.

 

Plus, look what happens when you put Mir up against guys with good takedown defence and the common sense not to try and grapple with him - remember Mir vs Roy Nelson? Or how about Mirko Cro Cop? Bottom line is, if Mir doesn't get KOed or TKOed (I didn't realise that every fight he's lost has been KO/TKO), the fight ends up sucking.

I'm not totally against Mir getting it, I have no problem with the dude, and you're right, on paper, he's the logical choice. Hell, on paper, he's the only choice - all the other contenders are either coming off a loss or booked for another fight apart from Werdum (who was royally thumped by JDS last time round) and Mark Hunt (whose record isn't exactly world-title material). I just think that if you're trying to put on an entertaining fight where the challenger has a genuine shot at winning the fight, then Mark Hunt is actually your best guy right now. He's nowhere near the best mixed martial artist of the challengers, but I think he matches up best with JDS if you want to put on a fight that people will want to see.

I agree, but at least on paper, it's a more legit fight... plus, I think it's much more likely that Dos Santos will KO Mir than he would Werdum. Mir has TKOed one too many times, while Werdum has only being KOed once (though it is by Dos Santos himself). On top of that, Werdum is a lot more crafty, if less confident, than Mir is. JDS might try to go to the ground with Mir (I think his BJJ game on his back is a bit suspect), while JDS will be extremely wary of even going to ground with Werdum.

 

The fight I want to see if Fabricio Werdum vs. Frank Mir, even though they aren't in the same position. For some odd reason, I can see Werdum beating Mir, though.

[brashleyholland]

I want the Hunt fairytale to come true more than anyone...the problem will be that as good a story as it is, how many of the current UFC fan base actually know/care about it?

 

Looking at it from the average UFC/MMA fans eyes, this is just some dude with a terrible record who happened to win his last three fights. I doubt they know about/understand the significance of his wins over Cro Cop and Wand (aren't they those two old guys from Pride who keep getting smashed up?). As for his other wins...I'm willing to bet that there are people here who will have to look up Nishijima and TK to find out who they are/know the significance of those wins - no offence meant by that, just making the point that these are pretty obscure dudes unless you're a long time fan or massive geek like me

 

Other than that he's lost to Sean McCorckle, who just got knocked out by a guy whose training regimen consists of bicep-curling Big Macs. He lost to an underwhelming light heavyweight in Mousasi in 80 seconds, and was knocked out by a middleweight Melvin Manhoef who hasn't been able to get a decent win in K-1 or MMA since. Reem and Barnett handled him in minutes. He did well against Fedor, but most UFC fans consider Fedor a has-been/never was, if they even remember that fight at all.

 

Mark has been to some pretty dark places over the past few years, and not much of it has been in the press. I actually wonder how many people on the #rallyformarkhunt bandwagon actually know his story, other than that he lost a load of fights and now he's won some.

 

Does anyone remember his blog?

[bigtplaystew]

It's all well and good talking about who 'deserves' a shot at JDS or not, but if only those who 'deserved' a title shot got one, then 2-1 Lesnar doesn't get the shot at Couture and business doesn't go through the roof for UFC.

 

This is a good point. The landscape of the UFC was different and one could argue that until we're all tried to death of it, but the fact remains UFC probably gave Lesnar the title shot because they saw a buyrate trend. Do I think he earned it? It's another conversation for another day, but if he wasn't drawing as well as he was I can't think he'd have gotten the shot with a 2-1 record.

 

Hunt ain't Lesnar though. I honestly think Mir/Cain is a bigger draw than JDS/Hunt to today's MMA market. I could be wrong. It's just an opinion, but I don't know that you want your co-main event to be bigger than your title fight. It cheapens the belt a bit. If I'm them, I still think they're better off pulling JDS until a clear contender surfaces.

[Daffanka]

Does anyone remember his blog?

 

$20/month was it? Insane.

 

I honestly think you're right and it's been slightly uplifting but mostly humorous to see all the fans streaming out of the woodworks to cheer him on.

[ampulator]

I want the Hunt fairytale to come true more than anyone...the problem will be that as good a story as it is, how many of the current UFC fan base actually know/care about it?

 

Looking at it from the average UFC/MMA fans eyes, this is just some dude with a terrible record who happened to win his last three fights. I doubt they know about/understand the significance of his wins over Cro Cop and Wand (aren't they those two old guys from Pride who keep getting smashed up?). As for his other wins...I'm willing to bet that there are people here who will have to look up Nishijima and TK to find out who they are/know the significance of those wins - no offence meant by that, just making the point that these are pretty obscure dudes unless you're a long time fan or massive geek like me

 

Other than that he's lost to Sean McCorckle, who just got knocked out by a guy whose training regimen consists of bicep-curling Big Macs. He lost to an underwhelming light heavyweight in Mousasi in 80 seconds, and was knocked out by a middleweight Melvin Manhoef who hasn't been able to get a decent win in K-1 or MMA since. Reem and Barnett handled him in minutes. He did well against Fedor, but most UFC fans consider Fedor a has-been/never was, if they even remember that fight at all.

 

Mark has been to some pretty dark places over the past few years, and not much of it has been in the press. I actually wonder how many people on the #rallyformarkhunt bandwagon actually know his story, other than that he lost a load of fights and now he's won some.

 

Does anyone remember his blog?

The problem is, Mark Hunt's weakness is obvious. In MMA, you need a ground game, or some one will exploit it. Need takedown defense, as well.

 

I mean, if Hunt has actually gotten good enough to stall you on the ground, or his takedown defense has gotten to stop a lot of people... that would actually be quite dangerous for a lot of people.

[Blackman]

Nooow! I mised Super Fight League 2. Damn it all to hell!

[Fantabulous]

I want the Hunt fairytale to come true more than anyone...the problem will be that as good a story as it is, how many of the current UFC fan base actually know/care about it?

 

Looking at it from the average UFC/MMA fans eyes, this is just some dude with a terrible record who happened to win his last three fights. I doubt they know about/understand the significance of his wins over Cro Cop and Wand (aren't they those two old guys from Pride who keep getting smashed up?). As for his other wins...I'm willing to bet that there are people here who will have to look up Nishijima and TK to find out who they are/know the significance of those wins - no offence meant by that, just making the point that these are pretty obscure dudes unless you're a long time fan or massive geek like me

 

Other than that he's lost to Sean McCorckle, who just got knocked out by a guy whose training regimen consists of bicep-curling Big Macs. He lost to an underwhelming light heavyweight in Mousasi in 80 seconds, and was knocked out by a middleweight Melvin Manhoef who hasn't been able to get a decent win in K-1 or MMA since. Reem and Barnett handled him in minutes. He did well against Fedor, but most UFC fans consider Fedor a has-been/never was, if they even remember that fight at all.

While this is all true, the vast majority of casual UFC fans, certainly the bulk of those who make the difference between a PPV getting baseline numbers and getting significantly more, only know the numbers on the record when they're shown or made a big deal of. They probably don't even care about what went into those numbers and likely only remember the biggest and most memorable fights that make them. So you're right that they're not going to know about Hunt's record or what it means, but that makes them ideal consumers for the story UFC can tell, because they're essentially blank slates when it comes to Mark Hunt.

 

UFC can bill Hunt as the man who took Crop Cop and Silva to the limit in their primes and bested them. And he fell on hard times and was knocked down, throwing in some dramatic aspect of his life story for effect. But then the UFC came calling, and while stumbled at first, he's reeled off three wins in a row, including stopping Cheick Kongo, the man who made one of the greatest comebacks ever against Pat Barry, using that to play up the kind of power Hunt has in his hands. Throw in the appropriate clips and some cutesy music, and it's a story that I'd wager gets over huge. UFC have a history of getting over main events with fighters who the casual fans don't really know. Heck, they got Jeremy Horn over as a serious challenger to Chuck Liddell, and he hadn't fought in the company for over four years before that fight and his record in the interim was filled with fighters who weren't even household names in their own homes.

 

No doubt about it that most UFC fans know next to nothing about Mark Hunt. But this is one of those times when ignorance really can be bliss.

[damonster]

Let's face it, the UFC can market any fight. They could get a fight between two rocks to get 1,000 buys if they wanted to.

[ampulator]

Let's face it, the UFC can market any fight. They could get a fight between two rocks to get 1,000 buys if they wanted to.

Literally taking, that's not true, but even figuratively speaking, even they have limits to their ability to market.

[Blackman]

@Brad: Are you serious about the K-1 events? Don't they have a torrent or something. A friend of mine had all the PRIDE matches on his HDD. Reminds me to backup mine on another one. Can't bear the thought.

 

As for UFC's marketing. There's indeed always a story to be told, and even though they look nice on paper, some fans will just not care if they don't have a (visual) history with said fighter.

 

Hunt's record is indeed not noteworthy, but he did win his last 3 bouts, and you're only as good as those last ones. Maybe he reinvented himself. Probably not, but there's always hope/the possibility.

[brashleyholland]

@Brad: Are you serious about the K-1 events? Don't they have a torrent or something. A friend of mine had all the PRIDE matches on his HDD. Reminds me to backup mine on another one. Can't bear the thought.

 

Sadly yes I'm sure I'll be able to get the recent ones, and maybe the GP finals, but I literally had every regional and oldschool ever committed to film, lots of which were Japanese TV rips that I got off a mates computer in Japan. One of them has a fight that ends with a brick-breaking contest after two overtime rounds couldn't pick a winner. Seriously.

 

I've had some techies give me some tips, so hopefully all is not lost!!

[bigtplaystew]

Hunt's record is indeed not noteworthy, but he did win his last 3 bouts, and you're only as good as those last ones. Maybe he reinvented himself. Probably not, but there's always hope/the possibility.

 

I'm not a big record guy. In MMA, your quality of opponent is where people are looking at you. If Mark Hunt has been 3-6 in his last nine fights against the UFC's best, we'd all look at it differently. Obviously, that is not the case.

 

I dont think a real argument can be made for Hunt being the guy who deserves the shot the most, especially over Mir. The problem with the marketing side of it is who do they market that fight to?

 

Hunt/JDS doesn't mean much to casual fans. It caters more to a hardcore audience. A hardcore audience is probably going to universally be of the opinion that JDS will absolutely dismantle Hunt in the cage. A casual audience who knows maybe 5-10 UFC heavyweights is going to wonder why they are being sold a fight between a champion and a guy they've never heard of or cared about.

 

Now they could pull out awesome UFC Primetimes and really push it hard and it might work.

 

I doubt very much Mark Hunt is getting that title shot right now anyway. But who knows? They could pull it off with the "Fans wanted it so we gave it to you!" angle so we'll just have to wait and see.

[Blackman]

Well if he's ever to get a title shot: better now then never, as there will not be another opportunity if we're being realistic. It gives them the chance to promote JDS as a champion some more. If Hunt does beat him in some way, now thàt would create problems for UFC.

 

But sure, it's not the optimal way of booking, but it's fine. They've have some mediocre events a year ago, remember. Lately we've been spoiled a little MMA-wise. Right now, I see a few months of (relative, mind you) boredom ahead of us.

[brashleyholland]

Another thing to remember is that Dana's "Mir vs Velasquez is happening" comment was more than likely a way to not make Overeem look any guiltier than he already is ahead of his hearing.

 

If they'd pulled him, the message would have clearly been one of guilt. There's the possibility that could then have influenced the outcome of his hearing. The UFC *wants* Overeem vs JDS to happen after all.

[Fantabulous]

Kind of like how he insisted that Ortiz/Liddell III was still on, even after news broke that Ortiz had pulled out, because the last episodes of that season of TUF had yet to air.

 

I believe The Juicer's going with some variant of the testosterone replacement therapy defence when he has his hearing at the NSAC. It's a pretty bold defence considering the problems surrounding the test he took for the Brock fight. Supposedly, UFC have already got their Plan B lined up, but if JDS has been told, he isn't saying, and is claiming that he hasn't been told who his new opponent might be.

[bigtplaystew]

Kind of like how he insisted that Ortiz/Liddell III was still on, even after news broke that Ortiz had pulled out, because the last episodes of that season of TUF had yet to air.

 

I believe The Juicer's going with some variant of the testosterone replacement therapy defence when he has his hearing at the NSAC. It's a pretty bold defence considering the problems surrounding the test he took for the Brock fight. Supposedly, UFC have already got their Plan B lined up, but if JDS has been told, he isn't saying, and is claiming that he hasn't been told who his new opponent might be.

 

Puts JDS at a bit of a disadvantage, dont ya think? Let's just say for arguments sake ;-) that it's Mir. Mir now has had two extra weeks of prepping for JDS when JDS can only really prep for Reem.