The Official MMA Discussion Thread

[brashleyholland]

My take on the 'Zuffa Myth' stuff...

 

The UFC definatelly deserves all the credit in the world for taking MMA to the dizzy hights it's currently at in the west. That said, they didn't design the play, they just took the ball and ran with it.

 

A lot of confusion arises because much of the non-MMA media that covers the sport inadvertently (or out of laziness) perpetrate the 'Zuffa Myth'...i.e. that Zuffa gave everyone gloves, weight classes and rules and sanctioning. For their part, the UFC don't often do anything to dispell the myth, quite the opposite in fact...

 

This is a great example, and a very funny read for anyone who was following MMA closely at the time:

 

http://www.whaledog.com/?p=127

[RingofHonorGuard]

One thing you can say for Rogan is he didn't act like he was the be-all, end-all of knowledge. I realize that was mostly tongue-in-cheek in regards to Rogan, but there really are people out there who feel that way about him. Rogan listens to fighters, he doesn't push his own agenda. Another one of my biggest gripes about Blatnick is whenever one of the fighters would join the announce booth, it was like Blatnick was competing with them for air time.

 

And I wouldn't really be busting Blatnick's balls so much if he had improved, but I was just watching an HDnet fight in the past couple of years, and Blatnick was commentating... Sounded exactly the same, with the same wrestling bias.

[Dustin]

brashleyholland (or anyone that knows): is shooto not an MMA organization but actually a sport itself?

 

Wikipedia says so but the site is unreliable at times.

[TheKenwyne]

It's right. Shooto is a set of rules, which actually predates the modern Unified Rules of MMA, and is promoted by various promotions throughout Japan. It was originally a promotion, but around 97 I believe a governing body was set up and more promotions started appearing It even has it's own sanctioned youth and amatuer systems. Most top fighters within Shooto hop between promotions so it's hard to point out one as the top promotion. Check out videos of Way of Shooto 3 if you want to get a feel for some top Shooto action though.

[Dustin]

It's right. Shooto is a set of rules, which actually predates the modern Unified Rules of MMA, and is promoted by various promotions throughout Japan. It was originally a promotion, but around 97 I believe a governing body was set up and more promotions started appearing It even has it's own sanctioned youth and amatuer systems. Most top fighters within Shooto hop between promotions so it's hard to point out one as the top promotion. Check out videos of Way of Shooto 3 if you want to get a feel for some top Shooto action though.

 

Why do the bouts count on MMA records and what are some of the promotions?

[RingofHonorGuard]

Why do the bouts count on MMA records and what are some of the promotions?

 

Dustin - The way I've always viewed the Shooto system as being relative to the NWA in wrestling. I haven't kept up with it in a while, but back when I did that's what it seemed like to me... Just a collection of smaller Japanese organizations who flew under one banner because there were too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

[LoNdOn]

Why do the bouts count on MMA records and what are some of the promotions?

 

I believe Pancrase is one such company.

[TheKenwyne]

Pancrase is NOT associated with Shooto. They were both created by pro wrestlers around the same time but are two completely different companies with very different histories. Pancrase is a seperate entity with it's own rules (direct copy of PRIDE nowadays) and 'Kings of Pancrase' as oppossed to the Shooto champions.

 

As to why the bouts count, you could ask the same question as to why early MMA bouts are counted, and PRIDE bouts are counted, because the rules are radically different in each of these. You've got to remember that there is no such thing as an official record- Sherdog have counted the likes of Shooto and Pancrase since the dawn of time and thus so do the athletic comissions and major promotions. Besides, there is precious little difference between the DREAM rules and modern Shooto and Pancrase. In the old days they were vastly different, they are much more similar today.

 

For a list of upcoming Shooto events, try Sherdog here - http://www.sherdog.com/organizations/Shooto-21 - that should keep you going.

[brashleyholland]

brashleyholland (or anyone that knows): is shooto not an MMA organization but actually a sport itself?

 

Wikipedia says so but the site is unreliable at times.

 

Well, it is and it isn't.

 

The best way to describe modern Shooto is a sanctioning body. It was started as a promotion in the 80's by Satoru Sayama in the 80's as an 'amateur' league, although people were paid to fight. Sayama wanted to emphasize the sporting aspect, as well as maintain links to Japanese pro-wrestling, therefore strict rules were implemented to separate it from 'no holds barred' fighting. Gym's were founded where fighters would learn the basic principles of 'Shooto'; strikes, submission, throws and positioning. This was an amalgamation of BJJ, Judo, Karate, Kickboxing etc...

 

In that respect, Shooto was a 'sport' before MMA/NHB was a sport.

 

They expanded due to demand, and sanctioned Shooto gyms started popping up all over Japan. Because it was too big of an operation to manage from one place, the gyms themselves started putting on events under the banner of Shooto. The organisation would become a licensing, sanctioning and promotional umbrella, much like the WBC or IBF, but combined with the licensing powers of a state commission.

 

In order to compete in Shooto, you have to earn an amateur licence and progress through the amateur ranks. After a number of fights you can earn a 'B-Class' pro-am licence and eventually a full 'A-Class' pro Shooto licence. Doesn't mean you can fight pro anywhere else if you don't have one, it's essentially a way of making sure guys get fair fights. That's why you often see some of the top guys from Shooto with quite a few losses on their records; early on there is no 'building' process or easy bouts, they are matched with guys on their level so there is no record padding.

 

During the 90's Shooto ran the World Vale Tudo Open - a series of no holds barred events featuring fighters from around the world and Japanese 'Shooters'. The Japanese fighters were often lagging behind in certain techniques, e.g. punches to the head on the ground (which Shooto prohibited), so Shooto rules were changed to allow these techniques. Rickson Gracie famously won the WVTO on consecutive years.

 

Nowadays, the rules have become even more refined and in line with standard MMA rules. Shooto is MMA, just with it's own controlling body. A pro Shooto fight will be on a pro record just like a pro UFC, Pancrase or Strikeforce fight would be. Many Shooto fighters have fought on other major promotions cards while holding Shooto titles or still being ranked in Shooto, such as Hansen, Kawajiri, Gomi, Uno, Sato etc etc.

 

As for the promotions, Shooto is still the overall promoter (usually the shows will have Shooto somewhere in the title) but the biggest 'promoter' currently is SUSTAIN, with GutsMan a close second. Other prominent local Shooto promoters are Alive, GrapplingMan and K'z Factory.

[Dustin]

Makes sense. Thanks.

[brashleyholland]

Satoshi Ishii Update: He lost his latest fight DQ after doing an absolute number on the guy after the bell, with the referee trying in vain to pull him off.

 

Stay classy Japan!

 

UPDATE: X-1 have changed the result to a no-contest, because the ref didn't interfere in a timely manner....riiiiight.

[Dustin]

Satoshi Ishii Update: He lost his latest fight DQ after doing an absolute number on the guy after the bell, with the referee trying in vain to pull him off.

 

Stay classy Japan!

 

UPDATE: X-1 have changed the result to a no-contest, because the ref didn't interfere in a timely manner....riiiiight.

 

I read somewhere that the fight was an exhibition in the first place. Why is that?

[brashleyholland]

I read somewhere that the fight was an exhibition in the first place. Why is that?

 

Honestly I have no idea. I can only guess that they do 2 round amateur bouts or something along those lines. He did look pretty tired in the 3rd round against Yoshida. Doesn't really mean much, other than that if he looses, it wont be on his record. Most guys start off with amateur bouts - its refreshing to see a high-profile Japanese Judo player being handled properly instead of being thrown to the wolves.

[Daffanka]

Honestly I have no idea. I can only guess that they do 2 round amateur bouts or something along those lines. He did look pretty tired in the 3rd round against Yoshida. Doesn't really mean much, other than that if he looses, it wont be on his record. Most guys start off with amateur bouts - its refreshing to see a high-profile Japanese Judo player being handled properly instead of being thrown to the wolves.

 

Wish they'd do the same to Kikuno. He (and his crescent kick) rules and he's had a tough time since DREAM picked him up and now he's apparently going to fight in a #1 contender's match and get Crushed by Kawajiri after that. Don't do it to him Japan.

 

Also am I the only one excited about UFC 115? There's no real high profile bouts but I think there's real potential for some excellent fights on the card and apart from perhaps Liddell/Franklin, Danzig/Wiman and Rothwell/Yvel the winners on the card are going to be moving up to greater things. Well unless Cro Cop wins.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that Thiago - Kampmann is the reason I'll watch this card.

[brashleyholland]

 

Also am I the only one excited about UFC 115? There's no real high profile bouts but I think there's real potential for some excellent fights on the card and apart from perhaps Liddell/Franklin, Danzig/Wiman and Rothwell/Yvel the winners on the card are going to be moving up to greater things. Well unless Cro Cop wins.

 

Basically what I'm saying is that Thiago - Kampmann is the reason I'll watch this card.

 

Nope, I'm really looking forward to it as well. I talk to Big Ben quite often, and Yvel is a guy I've followed since I moved to Holland in the late 90's. He was a middleweight Thai Boxer without a single tattoo back then :-p

 

Cro Cop/Barry and Condit/MacDonald should be exciting, Kampmann-Thiago has all the makings of an excellent fight and I'm really hoping to see Funch vs Patrick if there is time.

 

The main event...well, it is what it is...would have been nice to see it a few years ago, but it should still be competitive, albeit for very different reasons.

 

I think this could be one of those sleeper cards that lacks any terribly important bouts, but turns out great, like 95.

[Daffanka]

In unrelated news Chael Sonnen rules

 

FO: The UFC is very keen on legitimization and on shedding the old ‘bloodsport’ image that it once had. The UFC top brass must be quite excited at the prospect of having an elected representative of the people on their roster? (The only other fighter I can think of who has achieved similar is Mirko Filipovic, who was elected to the Croatian parliament)

 

A member of the Croatian parliament couldn't get his own mother out of a speeding ticket. What are they going to do, lead their 200-strong military into a battle? My hometown could invade Croatia in 15 minutes and while Mirko stands there holding a dart and a spitball, you will understand what he was really elected to.

 

 

Read the rest of it here.

[Zoloftjunkie]

I hope after Silva beats him they release sonnen. Glad I don't live in Oregon and around people who would elect a fool like him.

[Daffanka]

Sonnen is going to power double Silva for five rounds and it's gonna rule.

[brashleyholland]

Sonnen is going to power double Silva for five rounds and it's gonna rule.

 

He didn't even take down a half mental Paulo Filho

 

Seriously though, if he doesn't catch Sonnen comming in, he's going to tap him from his back. Sonnen gets tapped more than a top level fighter should. *Runs off to look at fight-finder* Seven times...yeah, he's getting tapped.

 

Triangle, 2nd round...you heard it here first. In fact, if Sonnen wins I'll have a 'Vote Sonnen' avatar for the rest of the year

 

I have to admit though, he is the most entertaining interview in the UFC right now by a country mile.

[brashleyholland]

Megumi Fujii's opponent for Thursday's Bellator card has been revealed. It's Sarah Schneider (4-4).

 

Just to give that some context, it would be like putting Kimbo Slice in the cage with Fedor...

 

...and then giving Fedor a gun.

 

I know they're short of ladies (especially at Fujii's usual 115lb weight) but this is crazy. Schneider normally fights at 135 as well, so I dunno if this is gonna be a catchweight or something. Either way, Fujii will be taking a foot/leg home with her.

[Dustin]

<p>IMO the fight is perfect to get viewers interested in Fujii going into next season's tournament and is not very risky.</p><p> </p><p>

I only wish they didn't have to bring in heavyweights. Did you see TUF 10? Cole Konrad's last fight? No thanks.</p>

[Daffanka]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="brashleyholland" data-cite="brashleyholland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He didn't even take down a half mental Paulo Filho <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /><p> </p><p> Seriously though, if he doesn't catch Sonnen comming in, he's going to tap him from his back. Sonnen gets tapped more than a top level fighter should. *Runs off to look at fight-finder* Seven times...yeah, he's getting tapped. </p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> All we have to ask ourselves is "Is Chael Sonnen better or worse on top than a dehydrated, gassed Travis Lutter who missed weight for his title fight?" </p><p> </p><p> (Also he had a broken arm in the Filho fight)</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="brashleyholland" data-cite="brashleyholland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="26660" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Megumi Fujii's opponent for Thursday's Bellator card has been revealed. It's Sarah Schneider (4-4). <p> </p><p> Just to give that some context, it would be like putting Kimbo Slice in the cage with Fedor...</p><p> </p><p> ...and then giving Fedor a gun. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well it'd be like that if Fedor hadn't ever fought someone better than Kimbo. I like Fujii but her record has absolutely no one of worth on it. This is more a result of women's MMA than anything else but I think Fuuji's pretty criminally overrated for someone whose record consists mostly of journeymen. Hopefully she sees some real competition in this tournament.</p>

[RingofHonorGuard]

<p>UFC 115 Predictions:</p><p> </p><p>

Franklin over Liddell</p><p>

Cro Cop over Barry</p><p>

Thiago over Kampmann</p><p>

Rothwell over Yvel</p><p>

Condit over Macdonald</p><p>

Griffin over Dunham</p><p>

Danzig over Wiman</p><p>

Miranda over Loiseau</p><p>

Wilks over Sobotta</p><p>

Patrick over Funch</p><p>

Pyle over Lennox</p><p> </p><p>

Only fights I'm having any real doubts about are CC/Barry and Condit/Macdonald. Macdonald has to the potential to be a big star but not sure if he's ready for someone as emotionless as Condit. Cro Cop/Barry could go either way, especially if Mirko Go Flop shows up. If Cro Cop is hesitant, Barry's going to put the licks on him for 3 rounds, possibly even TKO him. But I'm looking for Cro Cop to come in and win this.</p>

[Daffanka]

Franklin over Liddell, 3rd round TKO. Franklin's a good fighter who's survived the sport much better than Chuck has. I think he stays out of range of Chuck's power punches and scores with body kicks and punches for two rounds before catching a tired and slowed down Liddell with a left hook.

 

Pat Barry over Cro Cop, 1st round (leg kick) TKO. Cro Cop fights really flat footed and never throws enough to threaten someone who can dart in, land a punch and a leg kick, and then get out.

 

Paulo Thiago over Martin Kampmann, 2nd round submission. Kampmann is very hittable and Thiago hits hard with those silly looking punches. I think he gets pounded into the mat before Paulo finds a submission in a scramble.

 

Rory MacDonald over Carlos Condit, decision. I think it's going to be a comfortable decision for MacDonald where he takes Condit down and outgrapples him for three rounds.

 

Ben Rothwell over Gilbert Yvel, decision. I think Rothwell grabs a hold of Yvel and clobbers him for three rounds. Yvel might land a few shots early but Rothwell can take a beating.

 

I'm really really interested to see how Griffin - Dunham turns out.

[brashleyholland]

So I was on the Strikeforce LA press conference call earlier today...

 

- The winner of Lawler/Babalu gets a title shot. If Babalu wins, he gets Lawal, if Lawler wins he gets Jacare. Seems they have finally (publicly) given up on Shields.

 

- Babalu's manager said he would turn down a fight with King Mo because of their relationship...but would do it if it was the only fight on the table and the fans wanted it. Said they were actively seeking fights with Hendo and Mousasi.

 

- Babalu didn't seem comfortable with the weight issue...said he appreciates Robbie taking the fight at 195 and Lawler's camp initially asked for 190 and 192. Said he hasn't been at 185 since he was 15.

 

- I asked Scott Coker if he thinks the videogames market could be a big crossover market for SF (the LA show is part of the E3 expo), and if this could be a yearly thing. He said he'll definitely look to bring the show back to LA (not the best MMA market) but doesn't envisage doing a yearly E3 card with further updates of EA's game. Says that aspects of the game will continue to appear in SF's productions. (They had Frank Shamrock talking over clips of the game prior to certain fights on recent SF cards...it was pretty weak...)

 

- I also asked about the format of the card. Coker had previously mentioned that this card was a little different as it featured guys from the 'Challengers' series and the Showtime/CBS cards on the same billing. He said that the two types of cards have very different business models and fan experiences, so this would be something of a trial.

 

I'd hoped to ask some better questions but the operator screwed up and didn't put me in the queue...by the time I got on people had asked pretty much every question I had written down, so I was literally writing my second question while he was answering the first :-p