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How much do the penalties for habits take away from a segment? Segments that SHOULD be getting good returns on them arent, and the only reason I can think of as to why is various penalties as a result of the habits the workers have outside the ring.

 

Can they be turned off? I hate them... I never once watched a wrestling show and found myself thinking "Boy, the fact that Raven does drugs, and drinks really brings this segment down..." It's a nice idea in theory, but 95% of the time (Or unless your name is Scott Hall) any habits you have out of the ring don't affect your work in, or around it...

 

I figure it's backstage or worker morale and I don't want to turn those off, but I feel like most of my segments are being wrongly penalized for stuff that should have little, or no bearing on it at all.

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<p>You know you're right. Unless it's Scott Hall [or Rob Van Dam actually] I never sit there and think that.</p><p> </p><p>

Oh Ultimate Warrior as well...</p><p> </p><p>

Oh man does Scott Hall's public drunkeness bother me. I wonder if there's a CV Scott Hall. Not Big Smack Scott. He's awesome. If there were a RL version of Big Smack Scott, I'd be his number one mark. In fact, I want a Big Smack Scott shirt now. I demand Grey Dog make them...</p><p> </p><p>

Wait, I'm sorry what was the topic? Too much drug use to stay focused I guess.</p>

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<p>Maybe a penalty should only be given when a habit is serious... Like, if a habit has over 50% rating, yeah, then penalize it... But a guy being penalized in every segment he is in for a 14% soft drugs habit? Come on.........</p><p> </p><p>

I don't know how big the penalties are, but they just don't seem right to me...</p>

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<p>Since it is a mod you can take those habits as being only above 0 percent when they influence their work or endanger their health. So RVD definitely and possibly Raven are safe, Scott on the other hand, no. </p><p> </p><p>

PS Scott Hall is way way way better then the Smacker could dream of being.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hyde Hill" data-cite="Hyde Hill" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Since it is a mod you can take those habits as being only above 0 percent when they influence their work or endanger their health. So RVD definitely and possibly Raven are safe, Scott on the other hand, no. <p> </p><p> PS Scott Hall is way way way better then the Smacker could dream of being.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> even today, as nasty as he looks</p>
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<p>I think you may just be looking at it wrong. At least this is the way I look at it: the worker isn't at their best because they have a drug habit, and that is why you get the penalty.</p><p> </p><p>

So using your examlpe, the fan's wouldn't be saying "Boy, the fact that Raven does drugs, and drinks really brings this segment down..." but instead just that Raven wasn't as good as he could have been. That is a result of his drug and alcohol habits. Does that make sense?</p><p> </p><p>

Just because the dirt sheet says the penalty is due to his habbits doesn't mean those habits are obvious to the fans. It just means that that worker would be better if he didn't have that habit. Looking at it that way it makes sense that the penalty exists. And I would imagine (don't know for sure, just an educated guess) that the penalty would get bigger as the level of the habit goes up.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="kingtutt" data-cite="kingtutt" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think you may just be looking at it wrong. At least this is the way I look at it: the worker isn't at their best because they have a drug habit, and that is why you get the penalty.<p> </p><p> So using your examlpe, the fan's wouldn't be saying "Boy, the fact that Raven does drugs, and drinks really brings this segment down..." but instead just that Raven wasn't as good as he could have been. That is a result of his drug and alcohol habits. Does that make sense?</p><p> </p><p> Just because the dirt sheet says the penalty is due to his habbits doesn't mean those habits are obvious to the fans. It just means that that worker would be better if he didn't have that habit. Looking at it that way it makes sense that the penalty exists. And I would imagine (don't know for sure, just an educated guess) that the penalty would get bigger as the level of the habit goes up.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Alright, I understand where your coming from, but lets look at a real world example... I used Raven earlier because he is the perfect example of why this penalty system doesn't make much sense...</p><p> </p><p> Raven's work in ECW in the late 90's was ALWAYS top notch stuff. There also isn't much secret that he had some pretty strong addictions and demons at that time as well, but it never affected him in much of any way at all.</p><p> </p><p> Guys have always worked with strong addictions and not had it affect them in the ring... It's been that way since the 70's... For YEARS guys have gone out after the shows and gotten loaded on their demon of choice and shown up the next day, or show and not had any problems as a result of what they did.</p><p> </p><p> That's why it should only translate into a penalty of some kind when it is a severe addiction... 50% and over, yeah, that should mean that the problem is severe enough that it will affect their ability to work, and work well.</p><p> </p><p> But a penalty 100% of the time for a 14% soft drugs habit? <em>Really?</em></p><p> </p><p> The system is skewed to hold the expected behavior of the workers to a squeaky clean standard that humanity hasn't seen since the end of the 1940's... </p><p> </p><p> Plenty of guys go out and partake in whatever they can, and never miss a beat in their on-screen performances...</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="John Waylon" data-cite="John Waylon" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I've even noticed it hands out penalties for reformed habits... The system is broken.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No, its not. Someone who has recovered from serious addiction problems - hard drugs or heavy alcohol - will have done some physical damage to their body. So even after they recover from the addiction, there is still damage done. </p><p> </p><p> As for the Raven example, its not that he was incapable of doing good work due to the addictions... simply that those addictions kept him from being as good as he possibly could have been.</p>
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<p>If it's true that any amount of use means every performance is negatively affected (I have a feeling this isn't the case, or at least I would hope not, but I don't employ people with bad habits so I don't know), I do agree with you that it's ridiculous. But just to play Devil's Advocate on the Raven argument...</p><p> </p><p>

Honestly, how do you know if his performance was affected? We don't know what he was like when he was clean(I'm not necessarily saying he was never clean, even though he probably wasn't, but even if he was we don't know when), so we can't compare it and say "oh, his messed up stuff is just as good as his clean stuff." And beyond that, real life isn't as cut and dry as the game...nobody's sitting there giving a grade to his promos. If a guy gives a B+ performance one day and a B- the next day, that's a big difference in the game but you're probably not going to notice the change in real life.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>even today, as nasty as he looks</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Hey yo. You talking about da bad guy who won a tag team title recently. Habits do make sense. You expect a guy like Jeff Hardy to botch a whisper out of the wind once a month.</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Briskout" data-cite="Briskout" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You know you're right. Unless it's Scott Hall [or Rob Van Dam actually] I never sit there and think that.<p> </p><p> Oh Ultimate Warrior as well...</p><p> </p><p> Oh man does Scott Hall's public drunkeness bother me. I wonder if there's a CV Scott Hall. Not Big Smack Scott. He's awesome. <strong>If there were a RL version of Big Smack Scott, I'd be his number one mark.</strong> In fact, I want a Big Smack Scott shirt now. I demand Grey Dog make them...</p><p> </p><p> Wait, I'm sorry what was the topic? Too much drug use to stay focused I guess.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Let's see, roided up freak who works incredibly stiff, is a complete dick, but has a great look (thanks to roids!), is over the top awesome, and has charisma to burn?</p><p> </p><p> Maybe, add to that, someone named Scott with the last initial S and once teamed with his brother back in the day?</p><p> </p><p> Ding ding ding...</p><p> </p><p> Scott Steiner! I know, a bunch of folks get all upset about how "Scott Steiner has a legitimate background in wrestling", but I'm NOT talking about THAT Scott Steiner. I'll talking about Big Poppa Pump (similar scheme to Big Smack Scott, no?) Scott Steiner. Big Smack Scott IS Scott Steiner from the mid-90s to today.</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>especially the attitude and star quality</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> And the roids!</p><p> </p><p> And, let's be honest, the charisma.</p><p> </p><p> The parallels are truly uncanny.</p>
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<p>On the subject of bad habits...</p><p> </p><p>

I have been checking the guys who I know have them in my APWF game when they have matches with the dirt sheet. It's always fun to know when, exactly, a worker happens to be high during a match. I'll give credit to Brutus McBride: I notice he doesn't seem to "puff the magic dragon" before matches as often as Terry Carmen. Old Man Carmen is always stoned.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>On the subject of bad habits...<p> </p><p> I have been checking the guys who I know have them in my APWF game when they have matches with the dirt sheet. It's always fun to know when, exactly, a worker happens to be high during a match. I'll give credit to Brutus McBride: I notice he doesn't seem to "puff the magic dragon" before matches as often as Terry Carmen. Old Man Carmen is always stoned.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I've noticed this with Jay Chord. Sometimes he isn't dinged in the dirt sheet for his drinking habit and then other times he is. I'm actually surprised when it doesn't happen and then I think, "I wonder why he isn't hammered tonight?"</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="John Waylon" data-cite="John Waylon" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> Raven's work in ECW in the late 90's was ALWAYS top notch stuff. There also isn't much secret that he had some pretty strong addictions and demons at that time as well, but it never affected him in much of any way at all.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Are you serious? I'm not sure how anyone could claim that unless they have butterfly effect capabilities. </p><p> </p><p> Let's take Sting, a far better example imo because you can follow his career from before drugs, during drugs and after drugs. In his "Before" days he was one of North America's most exciting workers. In his "During" days he became lazy and boring to watch for most fans even at the peak of WCW and with some top notch opponents. In his "After" years he has improved from his "During" days but will never be the worker he was. TEW represents this perfectly.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Candyman" data-cite="Candyman" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If it's true that any amount of use means every performance is negatively affected (I have a feeling this isn't the case, or at least I would hope not, but I don't employ people with bad habits so I don't know), I do agree with you that it's ridiculous. But just to play Devil's Advocate on the Raven argument...<p> </p><p> Honestly, how do you know if his performance was affected? We don't know what he was like when he was clean(I'm not necessarily saying he was never clean, even though he probably wasn't, but even if he was we don't know when), so we can't compare it and say "oh, his messed up stuff is just as good as his clean stuff." And beyond that, real life isn't as cut and dry as the game...nobody's sitting there giving a grade to his promos. If a guy gives a B+ performance one day and a B- the next day, that's a big difference in the game but you're probably not going to notice the change in real life.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This man speaks the truth.</p>
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<p>I think it's a 50/50 thing. I believe it's very complex to model it accurate to real life and this has come up time and time again ... IE Some people don't think certain drug habits would affect someone's wrestling. </p><p> </p><p>

To me it's really up to the mod maker. Adam once suggested putting someone with a drug habit you don't think would affect them as 'reformed' so they would have a higher risk of developing a habit ... (I think I've quoted that right anyway) </p><p> </p><p>

Really I think its done in an abstract and responsible enough way. I wouldn't want a tonne of detail to be placed in this area.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="LoganRodzen" data-cite="LoganRodzen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I've noticed this with Jay Chord. Sometimes he isn't dinged in the dirt sheet for his drinking habit and then other times he is. I'm actually surprised when it doesn't happen and then I think, "I wonder why he isn't hammered tonight?"</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Clearly, he got drunk while packing... thus forgot to pack more booze.</p><p> </p><p> In other bad habits news: LOL, Terry Lambert and his copious amounts of steroids. He's like a short, Italian Scott Steiner. And that, my friends, is awesome. I'm gonna be pissed when the roids kill him... or the smoking... or a shoot-out with police...</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Benrollo" data-cite="Benrollo" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Big Smack Scott ain't never busted out no frankensteiner!</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, but only because he's too busy busting out the Shooting Smack Press.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> And in all honesty... when was the last time Scott Steiner used the Frankensteiner?</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="John Waylon" data-cite="John Waylon" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Alright, I understand where your coming from, but lets look at a real world example... I used Raven earlier because he is the perfect example of why this penalty system doesn't make much sense...<p> </p><p> Raven's work in ECW in the late 90's was ALWAYS top notch stuff. There also isn't much secret that he had some pretty strong addictions and demons at that time as well, but it never affected him in much of any way at all. </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> There is actually no way to prove this because we don't know how good he could've been in the case that he didn't have addictions or demons at that particular time. I don't think it's a stretch to say that he would've been better in the ring if those things weren't happening.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="John Waylon" data-cite="John Waylon" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But a penalty 100% of the time for a 14% soft drugs habit? <em>Really?</em></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Really. Thing is, you don't know how big the penalty is. Maybe it's a 0.01% penalty. You don't know. Does a 0.01% penalty to a worker's performance because of a drug habit not seem reasonable? Granted, yeah, it'd make sense to have it fluctuate depending on whether or not the worker has recently decided to partake in his/her habit of choice, but... you know, maybe it does. Again, we don't know.</p><p> </p><p> EDIT: All of my points have already been made. This is what happens when I post from work. <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah, but only because he's too busy busting out the Shooting Smack Press.<p> </p><p> </p><p> And in all honesty... when was the last time Scott Steiner used the Frankensteiner?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Haha I have no idea. I'm pretty sure he used it once in TNA, I was like <img alt=":eek:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/eek.png.0e09df00fa222c85760b9bc1700b5405.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> :eek: <img alt=":eek:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/eek.png.0e09df00fa222c85760b9bc1700b5405.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Benrollo" data-cite="Benrollo" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Haha I have no idea. I'm pretty sure he used it once in TNA, I was like <img alt=":eek:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/eek.png.0e09df00fa222c85760b9bc1700b5405.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> :eek: <img alt=":eek:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/eek.png.0e09df00fa222c85760b9bc1700b5405.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Hehe... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzwBBRi7-k" rel="external nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzwBBRi7-k</a> </p><p> </p><p> Bubba's like "Dude wtf, the Frankensteiner? Oh #@%*, k gimme a sec, Oh #@%*" <img alt=":D" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/biggrin.png.929299b4c121f473b0026f3d6e74d189.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28323" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Clearly, he got drunk while packing... thus forgot to pack more booze.<p> </p><p> In other bad habits news: LOL, Terry Lambert and his copious amounts of steroids. He's like a short, Italian Scott Steiner. And that, my friends, is awesome. <strong>I'm gonna be pissed when the roids kill him... </strong>or the smoking... or a shoot-out with police...</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I know the feeling. I can already see Matty Faith dying young because he won't listen to me and get off the juice. "F**k you, Logan - I need it and I love it. It'll never destroy me like those other has-beens" while walking out on a meeting after a failed drug test...</p><p> </p><p> He's the only person who gets caught when I comprehensive test the entire roster. He pisses me off. <img alt=":mad:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/mad.png.69834f23b9a8bf290d98375f56f1c794.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>
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