Would you...

[Hashasheen]

rather be a fan in Cornell-verse or our 'verse?

 

Serious question. I've looked at the '97 mod, compared it to ours time-period of wrestling. Its a good period. I don't know much about the '77 one, but most Cornell-verse have a lot more variety, a lot more faces than our 'verse has in terms of wrestlers and promotions.

 

I mean, Canada hasn't had a major promotion since Stampede Wrestling went out of business, the UK's wrestling greatest moment came in the 60s/70s, Europe is more of a nostalgia locale, Australia's got only nothing worth mentioning, but Mexico and Japan are great.

 

Then we come to the USA. You see the WWE and TNA representing the vast majority of the professional wrestling industry worldwide. And that's it.

 

Whereas in Cornell-verse, no matter the country, there is something to offer, and more than one choice.

 

Thoughts?

[20LEgend]

rather be a fan in Cornell-verse or our 'verse?

 

Serious question. I've looked at the '97 mod, compared it to ours time-period of wrestling. Its a good period. I don't know much about the '77 one, but most Cornell-verse have a lot more variety, a lot more faces than our 'verse has in terms of wrestlers and promotions.

 

I mean, Canada hasn't had a major promotion since Stampede Wrestling went out of business, the UK's wrestling greatest moment came in the 60s/70s, Europe is more of a nostalgia locale, Australia's got only nothing worth mentioning, but Mexico and Japan are great.

 

Then we come to the USA. You see the WWE and TNA representing the vast majority of the professional wrestling industry worldwide. And that's it.

 

Whereas in Cornell-verse, no matter the country, there is something to offer, and more than one choice.

 

Thoughts?

 

I would say HELL YEAH!

 

...but the C-Verse doesn't have

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReEH6pyIIr-cFt_LOUANNJ1mXkj09hVltjrAn2ddi1DBLbG9bH

[Bigpapa42]

Its an interesting question.

 

I don't know that there is really that much more variety offered by the C-verse as compared to our current options, at least when you move below the top level. I really think the indy scenes are relatively comparable. PWG isn't any smaller than CZCW. PSW would be relatively comparable to CZW. You have the likes of JAPW, Dragon Gate USA, Evolution, and others. And obviously ROH. The biggest discrepencies are that most of the smaller real world promotions don't hold shows are regularly as in the game, they don't get the degree of coverage by most wrestling websites like what TEW.com provides, and there currently isn't the depth of talent in the real world indy scene. So many of the real world promotions have to share talent to a large degree, which you don't see quite as much in the game.

 

The more I look at our current upper level promotions in North America, the more I think its also really comparable. The WWE offers far far more product than the SWF does (good or depending on whether you feel the WWE is over-exposed). TNA is really only a cult promotion by TEW standards, but it does have national television exposure and a strong roster (in terms of talent). I'm thinking ROH would be more Regional than Cult at this point, but again, they have television coverage throughout NA - it just happens to be on a specialty cable channel. Its not as big and doesn't have the recognizable talent that USPW does... but it does fill a market that neither the WWE nor TNA do.

 

There is a vast difference on the Canadian scene. The C-verse has two promotions that are comparable to what Stampede was in its prime. So yeah, big difference there. But up here in the real world, we have access to the WWE, TNA, ROH, CMLL, and more. So while our actual Canadian scene is lacking, our access to what other markets offer is better than what the C-verse has in that regard.

 

I'm no expert on the real world UK scene. But I don't believe its utterly lacking. They had Frontier Pro Wrestling for a long while, and I do believe there is still an off-shoot of it running shows. Europe has a few promotions as well.

 

I don't think the difference is as big as many of us feel, when you really stop and consider it. I would probably take the C-verse, but that's moreso because I'm kinda bored with the real world scene for various reasons.

[scorpion]

Right now I wouldn't pay to go see a WWE, TNA, or really any other wrestling show. I would however pay to see a Jeremy Stone/Dan Stone Jr. 60 minute classic

[ChrisKid]

C-Verse definatley

[Bigpapa42]

Right now I wouldn't pay to go see a WWE, TNA, or really any other wrestling show. I would however pay to see a Jeremy Stone/Dan Stone Jr. 60 minute classic

 

I feel the same.

 

...but...

 

I end up thinking that living in the C-verse would eventually be no different than the world we live in.

 

There are plenty of reasons to be dissatisifed and no longer enjoying the WWE and TNA products. But I believe that to a lot of fans, it comes down to boredom. Its the same old thing. There's not much creativity.

 

Now consider that the 60-minute A* match between Jeremy and Dan Jr is the same match they've been having for 15 years. If you were a fan there, you've probably seen that match dozens of times. Maybe hundreds. I think it would still become "same old". That doesn't negate the quality you are seeing, but it does lose the shine after awhile. I doubt it would be the same match time after time, but I don't know that there would be that much variety either. It wouldn't help that NOTBPW eschews the entertainment aspects entirely.

 

For example, I love the Joe-Punk trilogy. I've seen them all few times now. But if both had stayed with ROH and they had run that match several times per year for the past 5-6 years, would it still be as awesome every time? The actual quality might still be there. But I doubt that fans would regard it quite the same after awhile. Even sustained excellence becomes common place after a time. I think living in the C-verse and having access to NOTBPW would have that affect after a time.

[scorpion]

I feel the same.

 

...but...

 

I end up thinking that living in the C-verse would eventually be no different than the world we live in.

 

There are plenty of reasons to be dissatisifed and no longer enjoying the WWE and TNA products. But I believe that to a lot of fans, it comes down to boredom. Its the same old thing. There's not much creativity.

 

Now consider that the 60-minute A* match between Jeremy and Dan Jr is the same match they've been having for 15 years. If you were a fan there, you've probably seen that match dozens of times. Maybe hundreds. I think it would still become "same old". That doesn't negate the quality you are seeing, but it does lose the shine after awhile. I doubt it would be the same match time after time, but I don't know that there would be that much variety either. It wouldn't help that NOTBPW eschews the entertainment aspects entirely.

 

For example, I love the Joe-Punk trilogy. I've seen them all few times now. But if both had stayed with ROH and they had run that match several times per year for the past 5-6 years, would it still be as awesome every time? The actual quality might still be there. But I doubt that fans would regard it quite the same after awhile. Even sustained excellence becomes common place after a time. I think living in the C-verse and having access to NOTBPW would have that affect after a time.

 

You make some good points. I guess for me its more a matter of that I've spent more time thinking about TEW and the Cornellverse in the last year than I have real world wrestling.

[Bigpapa42]

You make some good points. I guess for me its more a matter of that I've spent more time thinking about TEW and the Cornellverse in the last year than I have real world wrestling.

 

I'm much the same. I still watch a fair degree of current wrestling, but it doesn't engage me like it used to. I miss that and when I think about "what if I got to watch the C-verse?", that's my first thought - it would engage me. Its when I really stop and think about it that I realize its, at least to some degree, a "grass is greener" situation. I would much rather get used to and bored with A* matches every week over predictable booking written for 8 year olds... but either way, you still end up in the same place to a degree.

[Kainlock]

I think the problem is I don't get invovled in the C verese, I get invovled with diffrent writers views of the C verse.

[PeterHilton]

BP makes some good points. And I also agree with Kainlock in that I often get drawn in by diaries and most diaries tend to move away from the default.

 

My SWF game is on a bit of a hiatus, but I LOVE playing that game and if you look at the roster and where guys are at in terms of their position on the card, it's quite different from the CVerse.

 

I do watcher diaries and it takes FOREVER for the AI to make any significant moves or push someone up or down the card.

 

Soooo...I think I'd definitely prefer the CVerse right off the bat. But eventually I'd be like most internet wrestling nerds, watching SWF and complaining because Angry Gilmore is still mired in the midcard, or because Remo isn't getting pushed, or that Robbie Retro's gimmick is completely played out and has been for years, or why didn't they sign Troy Tornado when his contract expired, etc

[Hashasheen]

I think the problem is I don't get invovled in the C verese, I get invovled with diffrent writers views of the C verse.

 

That is an excellent point. I guess if we had Bigpapa42, Eisen-verse, Dragonmack and others in charge of the promotions, we'd all get drawn in.

 

Though that would be cool. Bigpapa42 led SWF versus Phantom Stranger led TCW versus NoNeck led PWC versus Eisen-verse led PSW/4C/DOA versus infintypwi led CZCW versus....

 

Well, you get the picture.

[MJStark]

I'm no expert on the real world UK scene. But I don't believe its utterly lacking. They had Frontier Pro Wrestling for a long while, and I do believe there is still an off-shoot of it running shows.

 

In C-Verse terms the UK has a shed load of local promotions (the midlands alone has over 15) and 6 or 7 small promotions, a couple of which tour. All but a couple of promotions use a mixture of homegrown trainees and established UK 'names' and a smattering of former WWE/current TNA names to put bums on seats.

[Bigpapa42]

Soooo...I think I'd definitely prefer the CVerse right off the bat. But eventually I'd be like most internet wrestling nerds, watching SWF and complaining because Angry Gilmore is still mired in the midcard, or because Remo isn't getting pushed, or that Robbie Retro's gimmick is completely played out and has been for years, or why didn't they sign Troy Tornado when his contract expired, etc

 

I always imagine the C-verse version of the Internet Wrestling Community to be just as smarky and hard-to-please as it is in reality. They would definitely complain constantly about Gilmore and Morrisette not being stars, and about Big Smack Scott still being employed. They would probably complain every time Cornell wins the title (no matter how much sense it makes) and hate on Golden as not being "good enough". Probably even bash the Stone boys for being "too bland".

[Hashasheen]

In C-Verse terms the UK has a shed load of local promotions (the midlands alone has over 15) and 6 or 7 small promotions, a couple of which tour. All but a couple of promotions use a mixture of homegrown trainees and established UK 'names' and a smattering of former WWE/current TNA names to put bums on seats.

 

My mistake then.

[bassplays]

I feel the same.

 

...but...

 

I end up thinking that living in the C-verse would eventually be no different than the world we live in.

 

There are plenty of reasons to be dissatisifed and no longer enjoying the WWE and TNA products. But I believe that to a lot of fans, it comes down to boredom. Its the same old thing. There's not much creativity.

 

Now consider that the 60-minute A* match between Jeremy and Dan Jr is the same match they've been having for 15 years. If you were a fan there, you've probably seen that match dozens of times. Maybe hundreds. I think it would still become "same old". That doesn't negate the quality you are seeing, but it does lose the shine after awhile. I doubt it would be the same match time after time, but I don't know that there would be that much variety either. It wouldn't help that NOTBPW eschews the entertainment aspects entirely.

 

For example, I love the Joe-Punk trilogy. I've seen them all few times now. But if both had stayed with ROH and they had run that match several times per year for the past 5-6 years, would it still be as awesome every time? The actual quality might still be there. But I doubt that fans would regard it quite the same after awhile. Even sustained excellence becomes common place after a time. I think living in the C-verse and having access to NOTBPW would have that affect after a time.

 

BP; have you read The Death of WCW? Because this idea approached, as a more philosophical view of booking emerges, but they were specifically referring to how stale a worker was.

 

they (sorry for all the theys, the two gentlemen's names escape me.) were talking about DDP and Hogan both working in WCW's main event scene in 1999. Page was hot, and Hogan, though shoved down our throats was not. The fans thought the Hulkster was "too old" to be in the main event, and I think they were right.

But Page, who was RED hot, argueably as important to that company's success at that time as Goldberg, had begun his career late, and was only 3 years younger than Hogan.

 

Didn't matter. American fans had been buying Hulk Hogan-headlined pay-per-views for 15 years at that point, they were sick of it. Page had only been wrestling a few years, and had just gotten his push in the Savage feud.

 

I don't know what my point is, because this isn't the case in TEW... Maybe that could be a suggestion, down the line. Realisticly, there is a period of, maybe, 4 years, where a top worker is an assett to any main event. Than they need to be roped back to the midcard, or try their luck elsewhere.

 

But than someone brings up The Undertaker in WWF/E and Ric Flair in JCP, and everything I just typed gets blown to ****.

[denzil85]

BP; have you read The Death of WCW? Because this idea approached, as a more philosophical view of booking emerges, but they were specifically referring to how stale a worker was.

 

they (sorry for all the theys, the two gentlemen's names escape me.) were talking about DDP and Hogan both working in WCW's main event scene in 1999. Page was hot, and Hogan, though shoved down our throats was not. The fans thought the Hulkster was "too old" to be in the main event, and I think they were right.

But Page, who was RED hot, argueably as important to that company's success at that time as Goldberg, had begun his career late, and was only 3 years younger than Hogan.

 

Didn't matter. American fans had been buying Hulk Hogan-headlined pay-per-views for 15 years at that point, they were sick of it. Page had only been wrestling a few years, and had just gotten his push in the Savage feud.

 

I don't know what my point is, because this isn't the case in TEW... Maybe that could be a suggestion, down the line. Realisticly, there is a period of, maybe, 4 years, where a top worker is an assett to any main event. Than they need to be roped back to the midcard, or try their luck elsewhere.

 

But than someone brings up The Undertaker in WWF/E and Ric Flair in JCP, and everything I just typed gets blown to ****.

 

Flair and the Undertaker are particular exceptions though rather than the rule.

[scorpion]

I wanted to clarify because I think I've been misunderstood. I didn't say Cornellverse because I think it would be more exciting or that it would be different, I said that because I have zero, as in none, emotional attachment to anything in wrestling today. I tried to watch Smackdown recently and it wasn't that it was bad or boring, but that I didn't know any of the guys so I couldn't get into it. Now if i forced myself to watch I might start to like a few of the characters but really, after the Benoit deal I stopped watching wrestling and have just had no interest in getting back into it.

 

On the other hand through a fluke in my current game NOTBPW went to Larry Wood so I have been able to sign away the Stones and am now looking to build to the Dan Jr.-Jeremy main event I alluded to earlier. That is why I prefer it, I have an emotional attachment to the characters in the game that I just don't have to real life wrestling.

[Eidenhoek]

Hrmm...

 

BSC is mighty tempting. That and all the ridiculously sexy and/or hot C-Verse chicks.

 

Then again, I hate the name "Cornell-verse", as I have always preferred SWF (GOGO GILMORRREEEEE).

 

hm.

[dvdWarrior]

Pretty sure I'd pick the CornellVerse without hesitation. If I ever got tired of the 60 minute classics of NOTBPW, I could just hop on over to the Sports Entertainment of the SWF, and then when I got tired of that, TCW would be waiting patiently for me.

 

The CornellVerse seems to have much more variety than the real world, but of course that could just be my own perceptions.

[ShaunGBD]

Pretty sure I'd pick the CornellVerse without hesitation. If I ever got tired of the 60 minute classics of NOTBPW, I could just hop on over to the Sports Entertainment of the SWF, and then when I got tired of that, TCW would be waiting patiently for me.

 

The CornellVerse seems to have much more variety than the real world, but of course that could just be my own perceptions.

 

It's not you. I would agree. any type of wrestling you could want is their.

 

The wrestling fan in me would want NOTBPW, the sports entertainment in me woud want SWF/TCW. The storylines person in me would love R.A.W.

[Greg McNeish]

Well, I for one would stay in our world. I've been a big WWE fan for nearly 20 years, and other than a couple years during university, never miss an episode. I've got a heck of a lot more emotional attachment to the characters of the WWE than I do the Cornellverse.

 

Oh, and for anyone that has gotten away from watching wrestling, the WWE has been in rebuilding mode for a few years now, and is just about to catch stride again, with the new crop of guys. Now is as good a time to give it a try as ever.

[PeterHilton]

Well, I for one would stay in our world. I've been a big WWE fan for nearly 20 years, and other than a couple years during university, never miss an episode. I've got a heck of a lot more emotional attachment to the characters of the WWE than I do the Cornellverse.

 

Oh, and for anyone that has gotten away from watching wrestling, the WWE has been in rebuilding mode for a few years now, and is just about to catch stride again, with the new crop of guys. Now is as good a time to give it a try as ever.

 

I admire your optimism. I just don't feel like the product itself is all that entertaining. The pacing of the storytelling is too slow..the writing is aimed at a MUCH younger audience...there's very few risks or twists beyond the MITB briefcase (and that's no longer a big surprise) ...

 

Not that I want this to turn into a WWE thread, but I'm too old for what the WWE is putting out there. It bores me. And it's not the wrestlers themselves so much as it is the stories and that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.

 

So the CV offers more of the type of product I enjoy; TCW ..a more 'attitude' SWF...etc

[Remianen]

Make mine C-Verse. Even with greater options on the women's side in reality (most in Japan, Mexico's women are still working regularly, etc), the quality isn't there. You don't have workers being groomed to be workers, you have women being primped and prodded and made over into being divas.

 

I'd disagree with BP on some specifics (PSW is similar to CZW....except where talent is concerned. CZW doesn't make its living on former ECW workers like PSW does with former DaVE guys; and I don't think you can compare EVOLVE to anything in the C-Verse) but overall, it's a good breakdown. I'm surprised he didn't mention the similarities between Dragon Gate and WLW though.

 

In C-Verse terms the UK has a shed load of local promotions (the midlands alone has over 15) and 6 or 7 small promotions, a couple of which tour. All but a couple of promotions use a mixture of homegrown trainees and established UK 'names' and a smattering of former WWE/current TNA names to put bums on seats.

 

If that's the case, then you need to consider that in the Northeast alone (for example), there are around 20 promotions that would qualify as 'local' sized that run shows at least once every 60 days (2 months). The real world indy scene is an order of magnitude larger than the C-Verse, which offers more in the way of choice. But most people aren't going to leave their couch to actually SEE those promotions so they aren't counted. That's not the same as the UK (who will grab a Britrail ticket to go see a show). So while there may be more promotions, they probably don't have nearly the same following due to the whole choice thing (why go to an indy show when you can turn on the tube and veg out to the same ol' same ol'?). I'm willing to bet that there are more people in the UK who have seen Jody Fleisch work than there are folks who have seen, say, Jack Evans, in the States.

 

But than someone brings up The Undertaker in WWF/E and Ric Flair in JCP, and everything I just typed gets blown to ****.

 

The Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Kurt Angle (less so but still...), Chris Jericho, several of 'em have been headlining longer than 3-4 years and are still assets to a main event. That's not even counting Sting and Mick Foley, who can do their specialties (traditional and hardcore, respectively) well even now.

 

The thing that always strikes me is, what if? What if WWE hadn't given up on Matt Morgan? Or Elijah Burke? Would they not be assets, given how they've developed?

 

Hrmm...

 

BSC is mighty tempting. That and all the ridiculously sexy and/or hot C-Verse chicks.

 

Then again, I hate the name "Cornell-verse", as I have always preferred SWF (GOGO GILMORRREEEEE).

 

hm.

 

I take it you've never been to an NWWL or WEW or Lucha VaVoom show? Plenty of BSC types on the indys.

 

Oh, and for anyone that has gotten away from watching wrestling, the WWE has been in rebuilding mode for a few years now, and is just about to catch stride again, with the new crop of guys. Now is as good a time to give it a try as ever.

 

Peter's being kind. I think you're out of your mind, personally. People have been saying that since Cena first rose to main eventer status. What, you gonna main event a PPV with Ted Dibiase, he of the 'my valet absorbs any heat I muster'?

 

Yeah, C-Verse all the way.

[Eidenhoek]

I take it you've never been to an NWWL or WEW or Lucha VaVoom show? Plenty of BSC types on the indys.

 

>___________>

 

<_<

 

Do they have youtube channels ?

 

ALSO:

Hey, be nice to Ted. Daniel Bryan in my game has had the same problem.

 

WITH 5 FREAKING MANAGERS.

[Bigpapa42]

BP; have you read The Death of WCW? Because this idea approached, as a more philosophical view of booking emerges, but they were specifically referring to how stale a worker was.

 

I absolutely have read Death of WCW. Many times. Its gereral overview approach I took with my WCW 2002 project was actually lifted from the book in a sense.

 

I think sticking with the same formula gets old in nearly any situation. Whether its the same worker on top for a long period, the same storylines being used, or whatever. Some fans will continue on buying it regardless, but many fans will get tired of the repetition and stop paying attention. That goes beyond wrestling, too - look at CSI. it was fairly innovative when it came out, well-done, and extremelly popular. I do believe it was top-rated show on TV for awhile. But they use the same basic formula show after show after show. Some fans are okay with that. Others aren't, and I believe the ratings reflect that.

 

Flair and Undertaker can be pointed out as exceptions to the rule... but I would argue that Undertaker has evolved a great deal over time. He went away from the deadman gimmick for a number of years, then back to it. He has taken spells of time away and he's been very protected. If he had remained under the same deadman gimmick, on TV every week and on every PPV, I venture to guess he would have gotten stale to a much greater degree.

 

I wanted to clarify because I think I've been misunderstood. I didn't say Cornellverse because I think it would be more exciting or that it would be different, I said that because I have zero, as in none, emotional attachment to anything in wrestling today. I tried to watch Smackdown recently and it wasn't that it was bad or boring, but that I didn't know any of the guys so I couldn't get into it. Now if i forced myself to watch I might start to like a few of the characters but really, after the Benoit deal I stopped watching wrestling and have just had no interest in getting back into it.

 

I'm much the same. I do watch contemporary wrestling regularly (with the exception of TNA as I simply got fed with that). But most of it does not engage me. It doesn't hook me and have me really looking forward to what happens next. Its more watching out of habit and mild entertainment than anything. I would probably prefer the C-verse for much the same reason. Even the possibility that it would be more engaging would probably make it more intriguing.

 

My concern, or thought, was moreso that I felt some people are picking the CornellVerse based on factors I don't necessarily agree. Such as the real world not having much variety - I think its out there, but it has to be sought out. Thanks for the clarrifcation, as I see that wasn't what you were getting at.

 

I'd disagree with BP on some specifics (PSW is similar to CZW....except where talent is concerned. CZW doesn't make its living on former ECW workers like PSW does with former DaVE guys; and I don't think you can compare EVOLVE to anything in the C-Verse) but overall, it's a good breakdown. I'm surprised he didn't mention the similarities between Dragon Gate and WLW though.

 

Good points. I wasn't really trying to correlate them directly so much as overall style. I truly haven't watched that much CZW to really know how close they are to what PSW seems to be, but the roster differences are pretty clear.

 

I also completely forgot about Chikara, which is not comparable to anything in the C-verse North American scene. ZEN obviously seems similar, but it would not be very accessible to most North American wrestling fans. In truth, I think the real wrestling scene in the US might offer more variety than what the C-verse does for the same reason. A huge differentiation, though, is that in the C-verse, workers who are contracted to more than one indy promotion seem to be the exception rather than the rule, at least off the start. That changes as the game goes on. In our world, virtually any indy worker with a decent amount of talent is working for several promotions, if not all of them.

 

I stayed away from the Japan comparisons. I do follow the bigger promotions a fair degree, but I've slowly come to realize there are a lot of independent groups in Japan that seem to run occassional shows and it makes things down low seem muddled, at least to someone still learning the ins-n-outs of how Japan works.