Pro-Entertaining

[Mr_Tricky]

Lately, I have been getting more and more into pro-wrestling, thanks to this site and TEW. But, the more I watch it, the more I realize that it's just not my thing. The thing is, at times, I'm really into it. I like the fighting aspect, and enjoy the characters and the technical side of things. The problem is, outside of NOAH or some other Japanese promotions, there is an extreme lack of focus on the "fighting".

 

First of all, it's plain to see that wrestling does not usually resemble a real fight in any way. If you watch boxing, MMA, kickboxing, or any street fight, you can see that no one is chopping eachother in the chest or whipping a guy into the ropes. I understand that a lot of this Hollywood style of fighting is necessary to be able to improvise live and make things interesting. But, seeing these shoot contests between real grapplers makes me doubt the level of skill that most "superstars" possess.

 

Is it unfathomable that a top WWE worker should learn real catch wrestling holds, real kickboxing, and be proficient at real fighting to put on a more believable contest? Why is it acceptable to wrestling audiences that these guys do not make believable fighters when they have seen guys like Curt Hennig and Kaval? Is it just that you must have a low standard for talent to be a wrestling fan, because there just isn't a deep enough talent pool to please everybody?

 

Some of this must come by design, as the finish between The Undertaker and HHH was one of the most believable and satisfying endings to a match I have seen in the WWE. I see that there is a rise in MMA inspired moves, and the chest slaps are becoming rarer, but I think that much more needs to be done: combination strikes, more submission holds (besides resting holds like shoulder locks and head locks), more chain wrestling, more mat wrestling, and less goofy stuff like the guy getting up after every Peoples El-- uh, Five-Knuckle-Shuffle to get set up for the AA.

 

Is pro-wrestling just not for me? Am I just a niche audience who will never get what they want out of a product like WWE or TNA? And, how is it that intelligent, reasonable wrestling fans find it acceptable that guys like The Miz, John Cena, and Randy Orton are portrayed as some of the best fighters in the world when they can't even fake fight well?

[Nedew]

I look at it this way: If Randy Orton and John Cena were just putting on carbon-copies of MMA fights, with the only difference being that they knew the outcome, what on earth would be the point? Surely if you like MMA, watch MMA? With the added bonus being that you definitely know the result isn't pre-determined, incidents of bribery aside.

 

I watched Die Hard, i enjoyed it. I know that Bruce Willis couldn't take on entire terrorist organisations and win. I watched Crank, i enjoyed it. I know Jason Statham couldn't survive falling out of a helicopter. We know wrestling's scripted, so why not embrace that? It's an artform, not a sport. It's just an artform that refers to itself as a sport.

 

There are all sorts of 'genres' of wrestling, just like music and film and theatre. You just have to find one you like and acknowledge that there'll be others that you don't.

[Mr_Tricky]

I think it's the fabricated drama that really makes the difference. I can watch MMA and see a gogoplata in a big fight only once. In wrestling, I can see an Anthony Pettis kick or a flash knockout placed perfectly to enhance the drama.

 

I like the over-the-top drama and the flashy moves, but just like Hollywood, it doesn't need to be completely senseless to be dramatic.

 

I have always said that Hollywood would benefit from showing real elements of fighting, rather than everyone knowing kung fu as they are turned into a vampire, or ridiculous stunts like jumping off of a flying motorcycle and spin-kicking a horde of zombies.

 

If pro-wrestling is an artform, why does it lack any artistic merit?

[GatorBait19]

Not only that but I remember reading like 2 years ago that Vince didn't want to go into MMA because he didn't want to invest money into someone for them not to be able to cut it. In wrestling Companies can control who is there top guy and how long they want their guy there. Wrestling (in the states, I haven't ventured much outside) is just a male soap opera with violence.

[Derek B]

Mr Tricky, to understand a lot of what goes on wrestling you need to understand where it came from in the first place. We all know now that pro wrestling is a staged show, but that wasn't always the case. Once upon a time every pro wrestler knew how to handle themselves outside the ring so as to maintain a believability about wrestling. The chop (or chest slap if you prefer) is a move that dates back a loooong time to when there were no closed fists allowed in wrestling. As such, you had to use an open hand move like a chop or a forearm if you were going for a strike... or kicks and headbutts.

 

All pro wrestling around the world has evolved somewhat differently, largely due to most promotions not being visible outside their own area. That's why you end up with such different wrestling cultures around the world. American wrestling was always built on drama in order to get fans to come back for more shows. The bigger the drama, the bigger the crowd was for the next show. Some drama didn't go over well and some did... so whatever worked in one area often grew further and further. Big drama kept working so pro wrestling got more and more about characters and less about the matches themselves. The demise of the territories, national product expsoure on free TV and the general exposing of pro-wrestling as a staged show led to fans caring even less about the sport side of things and so the drama got pushed more to compensate.... which is where we are still today after more than 20 years (probably closer to 30) of it being on top.

 

So yeah... looking for a more MMA type approach is a niche market, especially in America. Japan has always managed to protect wrestling a lot better, with many of their top stars actually being very capable in a real sports environment.

 

I'd love to see pro-wrestling take a more serious, athletic approach once again but it doesn't seem that the two biggest promotions want to take that chance, even though TNA's highest selling PPV ever featured an MMA style bout between Samoa Joe and Kurt Angle. I think the potential is there, as everyone loves to see an exciting physical contest but I don't think anyone is ever going to be able to take advantage of it as it would mean changing everything that the fans have been educated with in pro wrestling already. Even the weekly TV format would need major changes for it to work properly... but I would love to see someone give it a try. In fact, it's an idea that I've wanted to try with a TEW diary to see if people would possibly be able to buy into it... but I don't think it would work.

[jhd1]

I'd love to see pro-wrestling take a more serious, athletic approach once again but it doesn't seem that the two biggest promotions want to take that chance, even though TNA's highest selling PPV ever featured an MMA style bout between Samoa Joe and Kurt Angle. I think the potential is there, as everyone loves to see an exciting physical contest but I don't think anyone is ever going to be able to take advantage of it as it would mean changing everything that the fans have been educated with in pro wrestling already. Even the weekly TV format would need major changes for it to work properly... but I would love to see someone give it a try. In fact, it's an idea that I've wanted to try with a TEW diary to see if people would possibly be able to buy into it... but I don't think it would work.

 

Since Vince revealed his rebranding (i.e. removing the word 'wrestling') of the WWE I think that TNA has a fantastic opportunity to go the opposite way. Make it more about the 'wrestlers' not 'superstars', make it about the contest not the endless (dull) promos that don't go anywhere. They had that Top 10 challengers thing (is that still going?) - focus on it. Make titles mean something again.

 

Maybe not go so far as renaming the company, but make sure you that every time someone says TNA they put the word wrestling after it. It'll not win them millions of fans but it'll give them an identity that isn't WWE-lite. Plus, claiming to be the biggest wrestling company in the world, if not quite true, can't do you any harm. I don't think it will happen, but it should

[Self]

There's other wrestling out there than WWE, but no promotion has really gone that closer-to-MMA fighting route. EVOLVE initially seemed to, but after losing Danielson and Richards, their main event scene is largely fey cruiserweights like Jimmy Jacobs and Chuck Taylor. On their 6th show (Called EVOLVE 6 ) There was a pretty cool match between Kyle O'Reilly & Bobby Fish that had a lot of influence from 'real' fighting disciplines. It was interesting, not quite a complete showcase of a different style, but a movement into an intriguing direction.

 

From the sounds of it, WWE isn't your cup of tea. If I were you, I wouldn't waste your time wishing for WWE to change. It won't. It's not the be all and end all of wrestling. Check out some EVOLE, or some other indy promotions, and if they float your boat pump your money into those. That's the way to change things. Reward those you feel are doing it right. That's how I roll nowadays. I don't spend money on products I don't believe in (WWE, TNA) just because they're the big dogs. I spend it on smaller promotions, and hope that my support will allow them to grow and expand.

[Mr_Tricky]

Thanks, I'll check out EVOLVE. I do like Danielson and Richardson. Richardson has some real technical muay thai style kicks, I wish I could see him on the USA network.

[Rone Rivendale]

My advice is to invest in some Puro DVDs. Or if you can't get into wrestling that only has Japanese commentary, get ROH DVDs. ROH is the top fed in the US as far as focusing on the skill of it's wrestlers.

 

Just overall, broaden your horizions. WWE is only going to get further and further away from wrestling and more toward entertainment. Eventually Raw is just going to be a weekly 2 hour movie that may or may not contain a match.

 

It almost makes a fan want to move to Japan.

[Linsolv]

I like ROH for wrestling. Though with them taking ROHBrazil down and Bright House not offering HDNet...

 

EDIT: That said, if you don't like the entertainment aspects, then Japan's the way to go. ROH strikes a solid balance between in-ring and backstage, but for someone who wants pure wrestling there's really no choice in the US.

 

You know who else is nice and actually does have free shows online? OVW. All that slow WWE style without the absurd amount of focus on angles.

[dvdWarrior]

I get most of my wrestling needs met courtesy of WWE Classics On Demand. I watch everything WCW that ever comes up, and I get to revisit the original ECW on a regular basis as well.

 

Just a few days ago, I watch WCW's World War 3 from 1996.

 

Good times, great memories.

 

Sad thing is, wrestling's been my thing all my life, and I don't seem able to just not watch it. At the same time, today's wrestling just plain does dangerously close to nothing for me. Watching the old stuff lets me go back when I could at least pretend it was real, and that's what I like.

 

I imagine living in the past might not be the best answer, but it gets me through.

 

 

As for today's stuff, I much prefer ROH as well. I haven't seen most of their recent stuff, (I think my most recent DVD was from late 2009 or very early 2010 - it was where Bryan Danielson faced Nigel McGuinness just before each left the company), but I still rank them as my current favorite promotion.

 

I LOVE that Danielson - McGuinness match.

[ZMAN]

I guess I'm the opposite of you. I hate pure wrestling. Never understood how people can watch that ****. I gave it a chance, and I always found myself skipping ahead or fast forwarding. For some reason the matches just come off bland, even if they are hitting each other full contact and using 20 variations of a back breaker. I mean, it's impressive that they can do that, but me sitting there and watching 10 matches of that is not happening. The feuds and storylines are horrible too. What can you even say in your promo's for a pure wrestling promotion? "I'm gonna beat you because I do nicer looking submissionz!" I'll take the goofy WWE style. It's a laid back style, so I don't ever have to worry about taking it serious. If a match sucks, then it's usually short anyways or there's some hilarious botch.

 

Pure wrestling = over rated. If I want pure or real fighting, then I'll watch MMA. If I watch pro-wrestling, I better see retarded gimmicks, silly wrestling holds, and a bunch of unrealistic **** that no one would do in real life. Why would I want to watch something that anyone can do in real life? That sounds about as entertaining as watching a tv show about someone grocery shopping.

[jbergey_2005]

I agree with a lot of the OP.

 

This is also why I think a MMA organization that brings a little bit of the wrestling side of things to their sport is going to run away with this niche market.

 

If UFC started promoting fighters as faces/heels to make people care a bit more about who wins and loses the sky is the limit for this sport.

 

Brock brought the WWE to UFC after one of his fights and the fans ate it up. It made people want to see Brock get his ass kicked.

[ampulator]

I agree with a lot of the OP.

 

This is also why I think a MMA organization that brings a little bit of the wrestling side of things to their sport is going to run away with this niche market.

 

If UFC started promoting fighters as faces/heels to make people care a bit more about who wins and loses the sky is the limit for this sport.

 

Brock brought the WWE to UFC after one of his fights and the fans ate it up. It made people want to see Brock get his ass kicked.

I'm not too sure that's a good idea at all... unless you mean it in reverse. More MMA in pro-wrestling? Yes. More Pro-wrestling in MMA? Not a good idea, especially considering it's not legalized in New York yet. You don't want to give them another reason to keep MMA illegal there, do you?

[Self]

I guess I'm the opposite of you. I hate pure wrestling. Never understood how people can watch that ****. I gave it a chance, and I always found myself skipping ahead or fast forwarding. For some reason the matches just come off bland, even if they are hitting each other full contact and using 20 variations of a back breaker. I mean, it's impressive that they can do that, but me sitting there and watching 10 matches of that is not happening. The feuds and storylines are horrible too. What can you even say in your promo's for a pure wrestling promotion? "I'm gonna beat you because I do nicer looking submissionz!" I'll take the goofy WWE style. It's a laid back style, so I don't ever have to worry about taking it serious. If a match sucks, then it's usually short anyways or there's some hilarious botch.

 

Pure wrestling = over rated. If I want pure or real fighting, then I'll watch MMA. If I watch pro-wrestling, I better see retarded gimmicks, silly wrestling holds, and a bunch of unrealistic **** that no one would do in real life. Why would I want to watch something that anyone can do in real life? That sounds about as entertaining as watching a tv show about someone grocery shopping.

 

Different strokes, bro. Everyone has different tastes.

 

I prefer a more stylised product myself. I'm a mark for flippy-do wrestling and comedy. PWG. Dragon Gate. CHIKARA to a certain extent. Unrealistic springboardz and stuff. The pure stuff, your RoH and NOAHs of the world don't really float my boat. They come off as bland and lifeless to me, and while I'll enjoy the occassional show (dug the RoH iPPV's) I can't get excited about the promotion as a whole.

 

I do love seeing wrestlers toss a Muay Thai clinch or a Kimura or a Judo Throw into their arsenal though. Perhaps more for variety sake than anything else. Cool, legitimate fighting techniques to expand beyond the generic move set that is WWE style.

[James Casey]

Is it unfathomable that a top WWE worker should learn real catch wrestling holds, real kickboxing, and be proficient at real fighting to put on a more believable contest? Why is it acceptable to wrestling audiences that these guys do not make believable fighters when they have seen guys like Curt Hennig and Kaval? Is it just that you must have a low standard for talent to be a wrestling fan, because there just isn't a deep enough talent pool to please everybody?

 

Pro-wrestling =/= fighting. Pro-wrestling is entertainment. More importantly, pro-wrestling of the type that 99.9% of people in the west are most familiar with = Vince McMahon's WWE.

 

The WWE promotes a specific style that is, generally, low intensity, moderately realistic in its approach.

 

It avoids the lucha-style high-flying because it looks unrealistic, and it's really hard to suspend disbelief when two guys are trading moonsaults and Matrix-style flips every second move. Rey Mysterio averted this by being marketable ad appealing to the kids, Sin Cara is intended to be (at least to some degree) Rey's replacement.

 

However, it also avoids the high realism of ROH because that stuff shortens careers - see the litany of injuries Bryan Danielson endured, and often worked through, as ROH champion, or note that Samoa Joe is in constant pain as a result of his in-ring style. Keiji (Great Muta) Mutoh has been somehow working with ruined knees since the mid-90s, while a lot of the top Japanese stars endure lengthy lay-offs as a result of their brutal and stiff style.

 

The WWE style is generally a simplistic one - punch-kick-suplex-finisher. It's not intended to be real, but it does look good to most people. Are the people in the ring great fighters? Oftentimes not, although they're generally great athletes and capable of handing out a beating to 'civilians', for want of a better word (except Sid Vicious, of course...).

 

The style has been honed to minimise risk to the performers and be easy for trained wrestlers to work with. There's a reason that guys like Punk and Danielson needed to spend time in development before stepping up, however: They had to refine their indy skill-set to allow them to work in the E. When real fighters enter the E, their training doesn't seem to adapt well to the environment - Ken Shamrock never got above the upper midcard, while Dan Severn never got above the midcard. In wrestling, you need to be responsible for your opponent's performance as much as your own, and you don't learn that in an MMA dojo.

 

It's traditionally been rare for WWF/E to promote their top names on their fighting skills. Bob Backlund (mid-70s to early 80s) was probably the last guy on top for a long spell who wasn't at least fairly entertaining on the mic (your milage may vary, of coure - he was a lot better as a loon in the mid-90s). Bret Hart wasn't great (although he improved) but he was a great wrestler who provided a foil for his more charismatic opponents - and business with Hart on top wasn't great, incidentally.

 

Hulk Hogan changed wrestling. The WWF, with Hulk at the head, left the bingo halls and smokey arenas behind and took wrestling into the mainstream. For thirty years now the biggest name in the business has promoted the softer, safer style and has continued to be very profitable because of it. It's a lot easier to make money off the back of a charismatic, entertaining figurehead (Austin, Rock, Hogan, Cena) than one who delivers great matches but bombs on the mic.

[jbergey_2005]

I'm not too sure that's a good idea at all... unless you mean it in reverse. More MMA in pro-wrestling? Yes. More Pro-wrestling in MMA? Not a good idea, especially considering it's not legalized in New York yet. You don't want to give them another reason to keep MMA illegal there, do you?

 

I didnt mean adding any pro wrestling moves to MMA I just meant adding some of the drama that pro wrestling has. Certain MMA guys already are doing the heel thing very well. Dana White should go with this instead of trying to minimize it. Play off the fact that so and so might be a dirty fighter instead of trying to make them all out to be the good guys for example.

[Self]

I didnt mean adding any pro wrestling moves to MMA I just meant adding some of the drama that pro wrestling has. Certain MMA guys already are doing the heel thing very well. Dana White should go with this instead of trying to minimize it. Play off the fact that so and so might be a dirty fighter instead of trying to make them all out to be the good guys for example.

 

I'd certainly dig that approach. Whenever some pro-wrestling-ish happens in MMA I go banana. Accidental low blows that are a little too perfect to be accidental, for example. Awesome.

 

However, there are a lot of hardcore MMA fans who really don't want MMA to be wrestling. They want it to be a sport. Pure. Simple. I'm not expert as to the ratio of hardcore/casual in MMA fandom, but I always hear backlash against some of my favourite MMA guys. Sonnen rocks. Bisping is a fantastic heel. Anyone throwing a pointlessly spinny kick.

[Mr_Tricky]

Pro-wrestling =/= fighting. Pro-wrestling is entertainment. More importantly, pro-wrestling of the type that 99.9% of people in the west are most familiar with = Vince McMahon's WWE....

 

Hulk Hogan changed wrestling. The WWF, with Hulk at the head, left the bingo halls and smokey arenas behind and took wrestling into the mainstream. For thirty years now the biggest name in the business has promoted the softer, safer style and has continued to be very profitable because of it. It's a lot easier to make money off the back of a charismatic, entertaining figurehead (Austin, Rock, Hogan, Cena) than one who delivers great matches but bombs on the mic.

 

 

I guess I'm wondering why people care. Aren't they essentially competing - kayfabe - for a fighting championship? I guess they have to do something to build the drama around, but don't you have to be immersed in what they are doing to be entertained?

 

For me to believe, they have to sell to me that these guys are good fighters, but I can't buy it when they don't show skill. I realize I'm just supposed to be aware that Batista was beaten by John Cena, and that it's important for the storyline, but when the match is so cookie-cutter, I'm just not convinced; and then, I just have no interest in hearing Cena talk about it.

 

When I was a kid, I loved pro-wrestling. I didn't know what real fighting was, though. I grew up watching Power Rangers and WMAC Masters. It looked natural to me. But now I've seen real fighting, I see the beauty in the techniques, and I appreciate the craft.

 

I think the Hogan era was like me when I was a kid, and only saw Hollywood style of fighting. Maybe WWE will incorporate more MMA style in response to MMA's rising popularity, but, with changing their name and everything, they seem to be resisting it.

 

And, I'm not saying they have to be ultra realistic. Not even a hardcore MMA fan is going to care that much if a guy gets caught in a camel clutch instead of an armbar, or if a guy like Mistico flies around the ring, as long as it's interesting and technical. MMA is, of course, based in hooking and shoot fighting.

[Self]

I don't think WWE ever will, and fair enough, they're the top dog, they can do whatever they want. I think the influence is going to have to permeate up from the indy scene. Trouble is, most of those indy guys grew up idolising Shawn Michaels, who is about as unconvincing a fighter as I've ever seen. It will be interesting to see how much of it comes through. I know if I were a wrestler I'd be stealing moves from MMA. I believe it was the Korean Zombie who submitted a guy with a "Twister" submission, an awesome looking abdominal stretch-neck crank combo thing. I'd steal that in a heartbeat. Also judo, muay thai, kickboxing...

 

What I do love about MMA is the strengths and weaknesses of guys. In WWE, nobody has a weakness. Nobody is specifically weak again submissions, or struggles to stand and strike. Weaknesses add an extra dimension to fighters and the fights.

[The Shape]

I'd certainly dig that approach. Whenever some pro-wrestling-ish happens in MMA I go banana. Accidental low blows that are a little too perfect to be accidental, for example. Awesome.

 

However, there are a lot of hardcore MMA fans who really don't want MMA to be wrestling. They want it to be a sport. Pure. Simple. I'm not expert as to the ratio of hardcore/casual in MMA fandom, but I always hear backlash against some of my favourite MMA guys. Sonnen rocks. Bisping is a fantastic heel. Anyone throwing a pointlessly spinny kick.

 

I feel a similar way. It's natural I guess, as my interest in MMA stemmed directly from Lesnar. UFC 100, his "promo"...then I watched TUF 1 with all the drama. People who hate on Sonnen/Bisping aren't necessarily purists, but people who hate on the whole entertainment side of it I can't relate to at all. The idea of people, the characters so to speak, can be as important as the action itself. I like it when people have a reason for fighting.

 

 

As far as WWE is concerned, I see it more as pantomine, I don't really care about the matches unless they're a huge deal. When I do, it's the psychology, the story-telling I am in to. Nor am I particularly bothered about the more realistic indie stuff, because it's still a scripted affair and if I wanted to see a genuine athletic competition I'd watch one. Doesn't harm my suspension of disbelief, eg.) Taker's streak, I'd see it as a big deal if it ended, because I kind of see it in it's own little world detached from reality, a work of fiction...

[brashleyholland]

I didnt mean adding any pro wrestling moves to MMA I just meant adding some of the drama that pro wrestling has. Certain MMA guys already are doing the heel thing very well. Dana White should go with this instead of trying to minimize it. Play off the fact that so and so might be a dirty fighter instead of trying to make them all out to be the good guys for example.

 

But MMA fans don't want anyone to be dirty fighters. Fight fans are interested in the sporting side of it...even the knuckleheads you get at UFC events boo low blows, even accidental ones, and most of them are there to see a 'cage fight'.

 

The UFC tried this once before around 2004, when Shamrock came back to fight Tito. They had entrance ramps, pyro, staged promos...Chuck Liddell even had his own weird entrance video/music combo thing going on at one point. They did some ridiculously staged press conferences, brought back 'cartoon characters' like Tank Abbott and Kimo Leopoldo...it was a bad time. Luckily TUF took off soon after and they went in that direction.

 

Polarising personalities like Chael Sonnen and Mike Bisping are fine. But it's the reality that sells fighting - at the end of the day, people want to see who the best fighter is and MMA actually gives them that, rather than wrestling, which just pretends to.

 

I think that's where a lot of wrestling fan's fascination with wrestlers in MMA comes from, seeing how so-and-so, supposedly a backstage tough guy, would do in a real fight. I had some moron the other day talking to me about how they'd love to see the Undertaker fight just once in the UFC because "he's trained MMA for years"...