Master Gilmore Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Just wondering if you guys had any ideas about what real life workers would have lower than a 50 in either face or heel performance. I can't think of too many. Maybe Goldberg or Mysterio for heel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathers7 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I would agree with your 2. It's all up for debate I suppose, I honestly think CM Punk is awful as a face so I would put him under 50, that's not to say he's bad overall. He's just a million times better as a heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodsmeister Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <p>I actually thought Punk had a really good run as a babyface, his reactions when he first joined the WWE where huge. I think he teamed with Triple H, Michaels and The Hardy Boyz at a Summerslam or Survivor Series in 2006 and the chants for him were bigger than any other in the ring. DX even had him do their Suck It catchphrase.</p><p> </p><p> Even later on when he defeated Edge for Money in the Bank the place erupted, although im sure that kind of reaction would be common on that sort of angle.</p><p> </p><p> Ricky Steamboat never played a heel so i guess he would be under 50% although he could be the worlds greatest heel we will never know.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathers7 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I think it was that his promos improved drastically and he seemed much more comfortable as a heel, I just thought he was really boring as a face (maybe that's just me being a smark), considering I had watched him in ROH and he was arguably the best indy worker in the US (the match with Samoa Joe, his title run before leaving ROH etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Casey Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Woodsmeister" data-cite="Woodsmeister" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ricky Steamboat never played a heel so i guess he would be under 50% although he could be the worlds greatest heel we will never know.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> He did early on in his career. Having the surname Blood probably pointed bookers in that direction.</p><p> </p><p> Punk didn't get much practise at being a face - all the character development in wrestling goes to the heels anyway, as it's so much easier to write deviancy in all its forms than it is moral rectitude. No wonder wrestlers like Ultimate Warrior got so big, so fast - they were different.</p><p> </p><p> Anyway, Randy Orton needs lessons in being a face. I've noticed him doing a few things to get the crowd into his matches, but his basic character is so arrogant that he really struggles as a good guy.</p><p> </p><p> (Of course, the writers and bookers need to take their share of blame...)</p><p> </p><p> I look forward with a degree of trepidation to Miz' face turn. He's a natural heel, and it's hard to see how he can still be Miz and be a face at the same time.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comradebot Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="James Casey" data-cite="James Casey" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He did early on in his career. Having the surname Blood probably pointed bookers in that direction.<p> </p><p> Punk didn't get much practise at being a face - all the character development in wrestling goes to the heels anyway, as it's so much easier to write deviancy in all its forms than it is moral rectitude. No wonder wrestlers like Ultimate Warrior got so big, so fast - they were different.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Anyway, Randy Orton needs lessons in being a face. I've noticed him doing a few things to get the crowd into his matches, but his basic character is so arrogant that he really struggles as a good guy.</strong></p><p> </p><p> (Of course, the writers and bookers need to take their share of blame...)</p><p> </p><p> I look forward with a degree of trepidation to Miz' face turn. He's a natural heel, and it's hard to see how he can still be Miz and be a face at the same time.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So of that is the fact that Randy Orton just sucks. He's a better heel than face, but I wouldn't go as far as to call him a "great" heel by any stretch. He's a solid one, more than serviceable, but of every WWE wrestler to be THE heel in the last couple decades, I'd say he's at or close to the bottom of the totem pole. Million Dollar Man, Triple H, Undertaker, Kane, The Rock (times a million), Edge... I can't think of anyone who had a legitimate main event run, as a heel, that Orton outperformed. Even Stone Cold was better at it than him.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Though, making that list does bring up one name: Rikishi. Rikishi was an absolutely horrible, horrible heel. His turn killed his career, rather then send him to the strasophere like the WWE had hoped it would.</p><p> </p><p> Other thoughts...</p><p> </p><p> Big Bossman couldn't play a face. He was a big, Georgian, ex-cop who was just mean looking to boot.</p><p> </p><p> Sting... well, there's a reason he's basically been a face since he's been relevant. Just don't think he's got the spark for true heelishness.</p><p> </p><p> King Kong Bundy: One of the best monster heels of ALL TIME, but really, was there ever even the slightest chance of him being a face? A guy like him is just such a natural bad guy, it'd be impossible to successfully book him as a face. No way could any fan buy Bundy as a face. Didn't stop me from loving him, though. But very few monster types are capable faces. Viscera actually surprised (and delighted) me with his "World's Largest Love Machine" gimmick. Wasn't the greatest, but showed he could play a face if pushed into it.</p><p> </p><p> I'll second Rey Mysterio... and throw in Spike Dudley for the same reasons. Both just scream "Underdog" to look at, and such is the case for most smaller wrestlers. Though there are a few very capable of parlaying their diminuitive stature into the "gotta cheat to win!" style of heeling, like James "Nunzio/Lil' Guido" Maritato and Jamie Noble.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Oh, and one last one...</p><p> </p><p> Jeff Jarrett. Jarrett is an absolutely horrendous face. Anytime he tries to be one, I just have to go "ugh". He ain't F+ bad, but anything higher than a D in TEW is too much for his Face performance. He's much better as a dirty fighting, loudmouthed Southerner.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comradebot Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <p>Oh, and for some reason I have this weird suspicion someone is gonna say John Cena.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> And before that happens, I know that Cena is an absolutely FANTASTIC Heel (probably even better than his Face performance, which is pretty damn good). I know, some probably wonder since he hasn't been a Heel since... well, lord knows when (wasn't he while still using the rapper gimmick early in the WWE?). BUT, the very first thing I saw from him were his promos as "The Prototype" in OVW, and they were gloriously Heel-tacular. I really hope that one day the WWE is comfortable enough to turn him, because it will be awesome.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathers7 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <p>Cena's fueds in 2003 actually made me a fan of his. Then his uber-push came in 05 and I've hated him ever since. His promos as a heel were golden and he got to fued with Angle, Lesnar and Taker. God that was a great time. Here's an example, <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruBP-iId0v8" rel="external nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruBP-iId0v8</a></p><p> </p><p> Sting actually said that he hated being a heel, so that's probably why he's never seemed comfortable in that sort of role</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <p>HBK post-return can't really play heel/doesn't want to. He had that one angle with Hogan where he sort of turned heel, but the crowd cheered for him anyway and he turned babyface as soon as the program was over. The same thing with the JBL angle: he was working for a heel and the crowd would boo when he'd he do something heelish, but he was still a babyface throughout. </p><p> </p><p> A lot of high flighers tend to make below average heels because they can't be as flashy and it just looks weird to see them control a match. The same way, a lot of monsters are below average faces because they can't get the crowd sympathy for a comeback victory. It's the rare big man worker (Undertaker and Nash come to mind) that are still very good babyfaces.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky The Squid Boy Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Nathers7" data-cite="Nathers7" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I would agree with your 2. It's all up for debate I suppose, I honestly think CM Punk is awful as a face so I would put him under 50, that's not to say he's bad overall. He's just a million times better as a heel.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Punk was outpopping DX when he was a babyface on the C show. He also had trouble getting booed in his initial heel run versus Jeff Hardy. Heck he still gets cheered now sometimes. Punk is an excellent face</p><p> </p><p> Orton's a good pick. I mean he's just plain bad, is the problem, but yeah as a babyface the man is absolutely horrific. Throughout his latest face run his reactions actually diminished as time went on</p><p> </p><p> John Morrison is a better heel than he is a face, though I'm one of the few that thinks he's a decent enough babyface too. Then again he tends to be vastly overrated in mods anyway and this is coming from a mark of his</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysin Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I doubt Miz is going to be a bad babyface. When him and Morrison were still together they were getting a face reaction a good percentage of time from what I remember. "No, food makes you fat" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Gilmore Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="James Casey" data-cite="James Casey" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He did early on in his career. Having the surname Blood probably pointed bookers in that direction.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Really? Everyone always says he was never heel. Perhaps they meant in a major promotion.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Rager Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I don't think that Punk is a bad face at all, it's just that he's an absolute excellent heel. Sort of like Chris Jericho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathers7 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Inky The Squid Boy" data-cite="Inky The Squid Boy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Punk was outpopping DX when he was a babyface on the C show. He also had trouble getting booed in his initial heel run versus Jeff Hardy. Heck he still gets cheered now sometimes. Punk is an excellent face<p> </p><p> Orton's a good pick. I mean he's just plain bad, is the problem, but yeah as a babyface the man is absolutely horrific. Throughout his latest face run his reactions actually diminished as time went on</p><p> </p><p> John Morrison is a better heel than he is a face, though I'm one of the few that thinks he's a decent enough babyface too. Then again he tends to be vastly overrated in mods anyway and this is coming from a mark of his</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You make points about Punk getting a good pop, but then I could make that exact point for Orton as he gets a huge pop no matter how bad he is as a babyface so you kind of contradicted yourself. It's just my opinion, I just don't think Punk is a good face. We'll agree to disagree.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHK1978 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <p>Ole Anderson: I am only going by the one time I saw him as a face when the Horsemen were faces and Sting was a member of the group. He just stunk as a face.</p><p> </p><p> Stan Hansen: I am not sure if he was ever a face, at least I never saw him as one.</p><p> </p><p> Big John Studd: When he was a good guy in the WWF, it just did not seem right.</p><p> </p><p> AJ Styles: His last two runs as a heel were awful. The Prince AJ thing was really bad.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungner Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <p>Kofi Kingston as a heel, is something I just can't see happen... like ever. </p><p> Jack Swagger as a face, is something I just want to see. Because I think he can pull it off.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crayon Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>AJ Styles: His last two runs as a heel were awful. The Prince AJ thing was really bad.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I never saw them, but I'm surprised since the entire time I watched him in TNA I was thinking "he's getting face pops but everything about his mannerisms screams douchey-arrogant heel"</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Savant Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <p>AJ's an alright heel. He does a brilliant dimwitted villain. The problem is he's <strong>so</strong> good as a natural babyface, and that ability is <strong>so</strong> rare that it's hard to understand why you would take him out of that position.</p><p> </p><p> Orton's a far better heel than he is a babyface. This babyface run is only working to the degree that it is because he is essentially still heel. I don't know if anyone remember's his first title run... but yeah. It was bad. That said it's worth mentioning that Orton clearly is spectacular in the ring, as that seemed to have been in doubt.</p><p> </p><p> Some who <em>does</em> suck in the ring, John Cena, however is a wonderful heel. He's a great midcard heel but as a main event face he gets booed out of half the buildings he walks into, which doesn't scream top flight babyface skills to me.</p><p> </p><p> Lex Luger is an abysmal babyface imo. Oh wait, he's just abysmal.</p><p> </p><p> I always thought both Triple H and HBK made insufferable babyfaces. But T-Shirt sales would seem to disagree with me, even if Triple H does not.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inky The Squid Boy Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rick Savant" data-cite="Rick Savant" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Orton clearly is spectacular in the ring</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Have you ever seen wrestling?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Savant Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Have you ever seen wrestling? Yes I have. And Orton's slow transition of the past five years into some sort of naga has been the third best thing to take place in the WWE, in that time, after Jericho's serious heel run and everything CM Punk has done since turning jerky. His ring psych is top notch. His move set it is good. And he sells like a mamma jamma. That being said, he wrestles the WWE style, which isn't my thing. But within that style of wrestling only The Undertaker, Punk and Danielson (who transitioned unpredictably well) are better. Is Chavo Guerrero better in the ring? Yes. Does it come through in the WWE? No. Matt Sydal is also better in the ring, but not within the limits of WWE's punch-kick-finish. Back on topic: Chavo Guerrero. Chavo's a way better baby face than he is a heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningHamster Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Comradebot" data-cite="Comradebot" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'll second Rey Mysterio... and throw in Spike Dudley for the same reasons. Both just scream "Underdog" to look at, and such is the case for most smaller wrestlers. Though there are a few very capable of parlaying their diminuitive stature into the "gotta cheat to win!" style of heeling, like James "Nunzio/Lil' Guido" Maritato and Jamie Noble.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I remember Spike having a brief heel run in WWE which I thought he played really well. He was just being a little a-hole and doing heelish things like when a guy was slumped in the corner he would sort of stomp them with both feet one after the other like he was on a stairmaster or something. </p><p> </p><p> I've think the only time I remember seeing Ricky Morton play heel was in the York Foundation, which was pretty lame.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHK1978 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="crayon" data-cite="crayon" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I never saw them, but I'm surprised since the entire time I watched him in TNA I was thinking "he's getting face pops but everything about his mannerisms screams douchey-arrogant heel"</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rick Savant" data-cite="Rick Savant" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>AJ's an alright heel. He does a brilliant dimwitted villain. The problem is he's <strong>so</strong> good as a natural babyface, and that ability is <strong>so</strong> rare that it's hard to understand why you would take him out of that position.<p> </p><p> Orton's a far better heel than he is a babyface. This babyface run is only working to the degree that it is because he is essentially still heel. I don't know if anyone remember's his first title run... but yeah. It was bad. That said it's worth mentioning that Orton clearly is spectacular in the ring, as that seemed to have been in doubt.</p><p> </p><p> Some who <em>does</em> suck in the ring, John Cena, however is a wonderful heel. He's a great midcard heel but as a main event face he gets booed out of half the buildings he walks into, which doesn't scream top flight babyface skills to me.</p><p> </p><p> Lex Luger is an abysmal babyface imo. Oh wait, he's just abysmal.</p><p> </p><p> I always thought both Triple H and HBK made insufferable babyfaces. But T-Shirt sales would seem to disagree with me, even if Triple H does not.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think with AJ it may have been more how they booked him as a heel and maybe that is why it did not work for me. </p><p> </p><p> @ BurningHamster: Yes Ricky Morton was really bad as a heel.</p><p> </p><p> I guess I would put Bobby Eaton down as someone who did not seem like he could pull off being a face. Maybe it is due to the fact that he never talked so we could not see if he was good or not but I always had trouble buying him as a face.</p><p> </p><p> I would like to have watched Dusty Rhodes as a heel. I know he was at the start of his career but I just cannot picture him as being a good heel.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazorbeak Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Rick Savant" data-cite="Rick Savant" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>AJ's an alright heel. He does a brilliant dimwitted villain. The problem is he's <strong>so</strong> good as a natural babyface, and that ability is <strong>so</strong> rare that it's hard to understand why you would take him out of that position.<p> </p><p> Orton's a far better heel than he is a babyface. This babyface run is only working to the degree that it is because he is essentially still heel. I don't know if anyone remember's his first title run... but yeah. It was bad. That said it's worth mentioning that Orton clearly is spectacular in the ring, as that seemed to have been in doubt.</p><p> </p><p> Some who <em>does</em> suck in the ring, John Cena, however is a wonderful heel. He's a great midcard heel but as a main event face he gets booed out of half the buildings he walks into, which doesn't scream top flight babyface skills to me.</p><p> </p><p> Lex Luger is an abysmal babyface imo. Oh wait, he's just abysmal.</p><p> </p><p> I always thought both Triple H and HBK made insufferable babyfaces. But T-Shirt sales would seem to disagree with me, even if Triple H does not.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Luger is a great heel. You just want to punch that guy, all the time. Also he's named after a Superman villain. What's surreal to me is that brilliant Starrcade match Flair carried him to. I would've never guessed somebody could get me to want to see Lex Luger win as badly as heel Flair did in that match.</p><p> </p><p> Triple H is a natural heel. With a nose like that, being bigger than all the other main eventers outside of the "monster" class, sounding like he does? It's just a question of how over he is that he can be cheered anyway. But at this point he can't do much other than be a generic "bad-ass" face. He's too old to be "cool," and too ugly to be "wholesome."</p><p> </p><p> One that surprised me is Batista. I knew he was an awesome heel, but I never would've guessed he'd have the success he did as a babyface. And that last heel run was just genius. They should bring him back for Summerslam or something as a "one night only" appearance.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningHamster Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BHK1978" data-cite="BHK1978" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> I guess I would put Bobby Eaton down as someone who did not seem like he could pull off being a face. Maybe it is due to the fact that he never talked so we could not see if he was good or not but I always had trouble buying him as a face.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I don't know, Bobby Eaton is a weird one for me. The fact he never talked definitely made him a hard one to pin down. I may be a little biased though as I have heard numerous people describe him as being the nicest guy in pro wrestling.</p><p> </p><p> Did Kevin Sullivan ever play a babyface? I can't imagine him being particularly good at it.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Gungner" data-cite="Gungner" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Kofi Kingston as a heel, is something I just can't see happen... like ever. <p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Jesus I can, but maybe that is just because I hate the guy's work and therefore want to see him get killed.</p><p> </p><p> Husky Harris is a guy that while I love, I can never see modern day fans get behind. He is just fat and greasy and bullyish and kind of sleazy looking.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHK1978 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="BurningHamster" data-cite="BurningHamster" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31208" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I don't know, Bobby Eaton is a weird one for me. The fact he never talked definitely made him a hard one to pin down. I may be a little biased though as I have heard numerous people describe him as being the nicest guy in pro wrestling.<p> </p><p> Did Kevin Sullivan ever play a babyface? I can't imagine him being particularly good at it.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yes I can see your point, oddly enough Bobby Eaton has always been one of my favorites just because you could drop him in a tag team with pretty much anyone and that team would be good. Which is also a reason why I am a fan of Arn Anderson as well.</p><p> </p><p> I think Kevin Sullivan was a fan favorite during his WWWF run in the late 1970's or early 1980's. Granted I did not watch wrestling back then, because I would have only been two years old, so I could be wrong. However, I think that I read he was a face at one time back then. I will agree with you much like I could not picture Dusty as a heel I could not picture Kevin as a face.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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