APB: Reloaded

[Remianen]

Play this game. Seriously. My reasons for recommending it aren't simply because of the game or gameplay. Lemme explain.

 

If you're not familiar with APB, the backstory is in order. Short version is: it was a hybrid FPS MMO that was developed by a small studio called RealTime Worlds. The developers decided to make a character creator that made CoH look pedestrian AND add further customization as ingame rewards. It's very similar to Grand Theft Auto (since the lead developer worked for Rockstar, specifically on the first two or three GTAs. But Rockstar wasn't interested in making GTA into an MMO). The studio spent all the time they possibly could refining the game and making sure it was "ready". The problem was, doing so put them deep into debt so they had to release the game and did. Three months later, the company had to file for bankruptcy (receivership is how it's termed in Europe?) and shortly after that, the game died/shut down.

 

Another development company came in and bought the game for €1.5 million and, after developing it further, is on the verge of releasing it. Okay, it's already released but they call it open beta (even though the cash shop is open ). It's free to play and lots of fun but I'm more concerned with the precedent. If this game succeeds, the MMO industry being very much like sports ("Me too!"), it could lead to more cases like this occurring. Meaning, a game with an established following that might not be WoW-sized but is still fairly large (APB had about 80k players when it shut down), being shut down or flat out sold to a developer willing to continue to support it. This means games like Earth & Beyond, Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, and so on, could continue to remain open, even if they aren't doing Blizzard type numbers. For smaller MMOs, large populations aren't required for profitability. A Tale in the Desert is one of the oldest MMOs in existence and they have maybe (MAYBE) 25,000 players. Anarchy Online isn't bursting at the seams with players but it's still really profitable (enough to allow FunCom to absorb AoC's initial losses and not have to make drastic cuts). Do I even need to mention Ultima Online?

 

Remember when Dungeons & Dragons Online went free to play? The game was almost dead but that switch revitalized it. What's happened since then? Everybody else is jumping on the "freemium" bandwagon. That's how the business works. The same can be said for City of Heroes and both their sidekicking feature (which EQ2 blatantly ripped off and which EQ1 tried to clone in half-ass fashion) and their character customization. This starts a trend that could lead to good games with smaller numbers being kept alive longer by being sold to publishers/developers willing to grow the game organically and who don't have ridiculous expectations. With all the Asian developers out there fiending for a way in to the Western market (see: Perfect World buying Cryptic), a Western MMO with an audience could be extremely attractive to add to a stable of games. This is especially true if the game is 'freemium ready'. Besides that, there aren't any developers who hold onto their games until they're truly ready. They'd much rather release a crap game and then try to patch it to a decent state later on. What RTW did was admirable and something I wish other developers (besides Blizzard and Bioware) would do.

 

The game itself is fun as hell, if you like run & gun combat styles. Playing a Criminal, it's awesome to jump in my ride, queue up my playlist (which you can customize and import into the game), and smash the front window of an electronics store and help myself to some flatscreen TVs. Or mow down civilians (or mug 'em). I'm doing the Enforcer tutorial now so I can see how the other half lives. Graphics are hot though.

[Remianen]

Details here

 

Some highlights:

 

You start with your own car and can buy others later on. Your car(s) are as fully customizable as your character is. You can design and upload logos to put on your car, on t-shirts, etc. You can upload songs to use for your personal playlist (every character can have a personal theme song). It even has a music production suite so you can create your own music. Your car can be summoned from various machines throughout each of the districts (much like mounts). Your first car is a hoopty that you can smash up at no cost. Later cars, you have to pay to get them fixed after you ram an ambulance or something.

 

You can also steal cars (yank some dude out of his Benz and take it) and even ambulances (which are fun). Criminals can take all their stolen loot to a fence or a chop shop (for cars). At the chop shop, you get paid according to how undamaged the vehicle is (wtf! I'm selling it for PARTS, not for resale! *sigh*)

 

The game uses a good deal of profanity (as you might expect, given the setting) which was a pleasant surprise for me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think cursing is "cool". But it's freakin' ridiculous when you have games based in urban locales with the people using the Queen's English.

 

The realism and freedom presented in the game is really good. Like when you mug someone, they drop their valuables and run away and you can shoot 'em. If another civilian sees you committing a crime, they whip out their cell phone and call the cops (the Enforcers) on you. You can shoot them too. In one stretch of the tutorial, I ran some guy over with my car, got out, and took his wallet before speeding off.

 

 

But one thing to point out is the game is PvP. Once you leave the tutorial, the only safe zone is the Social district (where you do all the "social" things in the game like buy/sell/trade and create music/tattoos/logos/designs and add them to your character or car). The more stuff a criminal does, the more attention they get from the Enforcers, to the point where they'll actually be actively sent to get you. I need to figure out how Enforcers get heat.

[Unregistered]

I have to say, I enjoy GTA/Saints Row type games, and I was quite miffed when I bought and played the game. The only good thing about it going broke was I hoped I'd get my fifty dollars back, but no such luck

[mjdgoldeneye]

Another game people should play is League of Legends. It's a game that shows you don't have to charge ANY money at all for the full experience and, if the content is strong enough, people will pay money anyway. The only thing you can't quickly acquire from just playing are skins (which have no influence on gameplay at all) and the only thing you can acquire that DOES influence gameplay (stat-boosting runes) can ONLY be acquire with in-game currency.

 

"Freemium" isn't going away any time soon because the silly social media "games" have shown it works gloriously. However, LoL proves it can be more "free" and less "-mium". Last I checked, Riot (the developer) was trying to hire people as quick as possible and they've got entirely autonomous divisions in Europe and China now.

 

As for APB, I'm surprised it's staying alive as it is. It's a very good idea and it seems like people know it. It's sad how often the best ideas seem to fail most gloriously. I read about Tabula Rasa and that was unfortunate. Then, of course, there's a pantheon of godly Fox shows that got demolished despite being amazing.

[Remianen]

I have to say, I enjoy GTA/Saints Row type games, and I was quite miffed when I bought and played the game. The only good thing about it going broke was I hoped I'd get my fifty dollars back, but no such luck

 

Yeah, GamersFirst has put a lot of polish on the game. Realtime Worlds wanted to release it at the end of the year last year but it's kinda hard to do that when you run outta cash and no one will give you any more ("That's IT! You're cut off!" ). G1 has totally revamped the progression scheme and really taken the RTW's plan and refined it a lot. They also cut some of the extraneous stuff (like RTW planned to have 3 organizations on each side but had only completed two for each side. G1 scrapped the two that hadn't been done yet and even scrapped the district they were both supposed to be based in (Midtown)).

 

But I think if you bought the game, you automatically start at Premium level. And your existing characters are still there as well. Driving is a hoot though! They added drifting to the car physics.

[ZMAN]

I'll try it out, but I'm going in with low expectations.

 

I've been pretty critical on MMO's for the past 3 years, because after 07 they seriously began to just be copies of each other with a very few tweaks thrown in. With that being said, MMOs need to drop the subscriptions unless they really have something different to offer.

[Remianen]

I read about Tabula Rasa and that was unfortunate. Then, of course, there's a pantheon of godly Fox shows that got demolished despite being amazing.

 

Not the same thing.

 

Tabula Rasa failed due to its creator's vanity. It was actually TWO games as far as costs were concerned. It started as a fantasy based game and got all the way to the closed beta stage before Richard Garriott expressed his dislike for it and they started over from scratch (tossed out all of the assets they had and went back to the drawing board). As any developer will tell you, that is ridiculously expensive (and unnecessary, unless you're "Lord British"). NCSoft gave him all the rope he wanted and he wound up hanging himself. The Tabula Rasa that saw release is a 180 degree departure from the Tabula Rasa that had been initially hyped. Plus, the game's core mechanics changed post-release (TWICE!) and that's never a good thing. I was referring to games that brought something new to the genre (TR didn't. It was a bastardized mashing of two combat styles into one), since innovation has and always will come from the smaller developers (they have less at stake, financially and reputation wise).

 

As an example, Earth & Beyond died because its developer was too good. Basically, EA bought Westwood because of their OTHER games and IPs (like Command & Conquer) and wanted no part of running an MMO (see: Motor City Online, The Sims Online). E&B had about 100-125k subs and a dev team that was working earnestly on growing the game. Keep in mind, this was during EverQuest's heyday as the top MMO (2002) and the ceiling was 492k so E&B wasn't that far off the pace. But EA wanted to topple the giant and E&B wasn't capable of doing that (it wasn't nearly addictive enough to compete with EQ in its prime). The game brought the concept of non-combat XP pools contributing to overall player power. You had three XP pools: combat, trade, and exploration and to reach the level cap (150), you had to max out all three (50 levels each). It was shut down solely because EA wanted Westwood's talent and IPs and had no interest in their MMO. If someone had bought the game, it could probably still be running today (and not just in the emulator form its currently in).

 

I'd have to disagree with you ZMAN. As an MMO connoisseur (this is the primary genre I play. I don't do consoles), I want MORE choices, not less. These games are not inexpensive to create or launch or support and develop so subscription fees are one way for developers to justify their continued existence. WoW didn't bring anything NEW to the genre (it polished the hell out of what was already there but there were next to no truly NEW things it brought forward), should that have been free too? Every individual player has a right to decide whether a game is "good enough" to support with their dollars (or pounds or Euro or whatever). Saying that games shouldn't have subscriptions if they don't bring anything new is reducing/limiting/removing that choice. Besides, the market will determine how well a pricing system works (as we've already seen). Let 'em come out with the subscription plan and have it fail miserably because the game is a clone or just plain unfinished. Then they'll switch to freemium with their tails wedged firmly between their legs (hi Champions!).

[Clarity]

I tried APB during its original Beta testing and wasnt impressed.

 

Tried it again today and it actually feels worse. Biggest issue i had today though was draw distances. Was flying down a back alley and could see the next road coming up. Tried to turn into it and BAMN!! Invisible wall. A few seconds later it finally decided to bring the wall up.

 

Later on a blue box decided to pull up next to me.. I was looking through some tutorial messages and was a bit surprised when it finally decided to load the details of the police car..

[Remianen]

I tried APB during its original Beta testing and wasnt impressed.

 

Tried it again today and it actually feels worse. Biggest issue i had today though was draw distances. Was flying down a back alley and could see the next road coming up. Tried to turn into it and BAMN!! Invisible wall. A few seconds later it finally decided to bring the wall up.

 

Later on a blue box decided to pull up next to me.. I was looking through some tutorial messages and was a bit surprised when it finally decided to load the details of the police car..

 

WHOA! Okay, that's gamebreaking right there, given the setting. I haven't had any technical issues at all thus far. The primary problem I have is skill based (i.e. I suck). This game isn't as conducive to my typical FPS playstyle so I get owned a lot. I can't find any defensible perches near any mission areas. But I've come across several people using aimbots though.

[Clarity]

WHOA! Okay, that's gamebreaking right there, given the setting. I haven't had any technical issues at all thus far. The primary problem I have is skill based (i.e. I suck). This game isn't as conducive to my typical FPS playstyle so I get owned a lot. I can't find any defensible perches near any mission areas. But I've come across several people using aimbots though.

Forgot all about that experience. I do suck a little but i emptied an entire clip into an enemies head and nothing.. Not even any blood. He was firing at me and im not sure he hit me either

 

Im trying to like it and keep going back to see if its a one off glitch, but i just dont know

[MrOnu]

That's a hell lot of good praise there Remianen. I might even try it because of you ! Work is slow for the moment, I have way too much free time anyway. Could not be worse than trying to revive Hellgate anyway.

[Remianen]

That's a hell lot of good praise there Remianen. I might even try it because of you ! Work is slow for the moment, I have way too much free time anyway. Could not be worse than trying to revive Hellgate anyway.

 

Heh, Hellgate. It actually went into closed beta last Friday for US/EU. It's another example of a dead game picked up by a new company and relaunched (though I haven't seen what it looks like in its current form). Google 'Hellgate Global' to see. It's going to include London, Tokyo, Osaka, and I think Haneda as well.

 

But yeah, I think Hellgate is one MMO that should stay dead. I kinda wish Turbine would resurrect AC2 though, since it had a lot of new (for the time) ideas and mechanics (random mob spawning and anti-camp code, for example).

 

Don't get me wrong though. APB does still have some rough edges (which is why this is still beta). But it's also flat out fun, if you like GTA type gameplay. I went six hours on Sunday without driving my own car (I jacked civilians' rides). I was cruising around, bumpin' 2Pac in my stolen rides, and made almost 10k in cash. After a while, you learn which cars are the Benz/BMWs/Range Rovers of the game so you steal those and run 'em to the chop shop. And robbing people going to or coming out of the mall is awesome too!

[moon_lit_tears]

See Remi I disagree with you about MMOs.

 

This is where LoL is probably the best choice,while I've not gone beyond the tutorial level a friend has. He loves the game. This shows Developers can put a game out and make it work without a subscription fee.

 

Granted if you want your champion to look great it will cost you $2-$15 depending on what you want.

 

MMOs polished or not are seriously not worth paying $15-20 bucks a month for. They are all paper doll cut outs pretty much.

 

I guess I'm a bit against subscriptions though. I play an online game that starts off free but you can either subscribe (everything in the entire game is unlocked including PvP) or you can puchuse game currency and open areas as you go along (Areas are open forever, but PvP are not.)

 

If you can't put time in on a daily basis I don't see subscriptions as a good idea. It just seems like a rip off to me.

[Clarity]

Played a little more earlier.

 

Getting the hang of mugging and ram raiding shops which is making it more fun. Being an enforcer must be well boring in comparison.

 

Car controls to me still feel rubbish so im just doing my own thing

 

EDIT-- Finally figured out how to update my wardrobe...

 

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz173/GDSRenders/Other/ScreenShot00001.jpg

[BurningHamster]

Why is there a guy behind you in his underwear hanging out with identical triplets?

[mike b]

Hey Remianen not to change the subject but are you still playing champions.

[MrOnu]

See Remi I disagree with you about MMOs.

 

This is where LoL is probably the best choice,while I've not gone beyond the tutorial level a friend has. He loves the game. This shows Developers can put a game out and make it work without a subscription fee.

 

Granted if you want your champion to look great it will cost you $2-$15 depending on what you want.

 

MMOs polished or not are seriously not worth paying $15-20 bucks a month for. They are all paper doll cut outs pretty much.

 

I guess I'm a bit against subscriptions though. I play an online game that starts off free but you can either subscribe (everything in the entire game is unlocked including PvP) or you can puchuse game currency and open areas as you go along (Areas are open forever, but PvP are not.)

 

If you can't put time in on a daily basis I don't see subscriptions as a good idea. It just seems like a rip off to me.

 

And you have people on the other side of the spectrum who can't figure why these games don't charge more per month. 15$/month is ridiculously cheap for the section of the market that plays a lot. As an economist, I see a wasted opportunity to make money there as I'm sure that section of the player base would be willing to pay a lot more than the 15$. That sum divided by the time some players put in a game is very low. Let's just take my personal example with WoW. I only play for raiding, I don't care about the rest of this game. At most, I play 2 blocks of 3 hours per week, which totals 24 hours per month. 15$/24 hours = 0,625$/hour ! That's cheap leisure time right there !

 

I'm not saying all the subscription based game should charge more than 15$, but I believe there should be more options in the market. I could see a payment model charging different amounts to different people. Wanna access the whole game ? That's 25$. Just the PvP arenas ? That's 10$. To be honest, I can even some see niche games charging a lot more money per month. It already exists with some cash shop games, but a portion of the market is simply against the mere existence of those, so the multiple options for subscriptions would circumvent that.

[Clarity]

Why is there a guy behind you in his underwear hanging out with identical triplets?

 

im not 100% sure but i think that the triplets are the default skins for characters before the custom outfits are loaded.

 

Guy in his underwear must have chosen to look like that

[Remianen]

See Remi I disagree with you about MMOs.

 

This is where LoL is probably the best choice,while I've not gone beyond the tutorial level a friend has. He loves the game. This shows Developers can put a game out and make it work without a subscription fee.

 

Granted if you want your champion to look great it will cost you $2-$15 depending on what you want.

 

MMOs polished or not are seriously not worth paying $15-20 bucks a month for. They are all paper doll cut outs pretty much.

 

I guess I'm a bit against subscriptions though. I play an online game that starts off free but you can either subscribe (everything in the entire game is unlocked including PvP) or you can puchuse game currency and open areas as you go along (Areas are open forever, but PvP are not.)

 

If you can't put time in on a daily basis I don't see subscriptions as a good idea. It just seems like a rip off to me.

 

MLT, what you describe is the "freemium" fad that's sweeping the genre. Free to play, except for extras you might want. Now, do the math and you'll find that freemium players pay MORE than subscribers, by and large (which is why the plan is so popular right now). You're not getting anything for free. They'll get their money out of you somehow and when you pay, you'll pay more than that person with the monthly (or annual) sub.

 

And I'm one of those daily, high playtime people so I get ridiculous value out of all of my subscriptions. Even given the number of accounts I tend to keep open (up to 10 at a time), it's still cheaper than going to see one crappy movie.

 

Consider this: When Star Wars: The Old Republic ships, it should be the most polished and expansive MMO ever created. Every character (PC or NPC) has a voiceover. Every story has at least one cutscene. It's story based, like the game series it's based on (which is NEW in this genre), with the same good/evil metric that exists in KOTOR and Mass Effect while still remaining freeform (though not necessarily a sandbox). It will also have cost close to $200 million to create (by comparison, WoW cost $75 million, all told). How many microtransactions do you think it would take to recoup that much? There's a reason "everyone" offers lifetime subscriptions pre-launch (that's recoup money right there. Money upfront, in a large sum for an MMO).

 

I don't have a problem paying almost $200 a month for a satellite subscription I barely use. I don't have a problem paying $80 a month for a landline phone I don't use. I don't put time in every day on either of those but I don't feel I'm being ripped off. I sure as hell don't have a problem paying that for a game I'll play the living daylights out of! Whether it's worth a particular price or not isn't an absolute determination. Every player decides for themselves. You think it's paper doll cutouts but I can point to serious personal growth I experienced leading a large group of disparate personalities with varying motivations, based on my experiences leading a guild in one of these games (back when your guild tag really meant something). I've booked four honeymoons for guildmates (which all made me money). Now, maybe in reality it's easy to find 71 people who will look to you to help them overcome obstacles in a way that minimizes or eliminates their frustration as much as is possible in an activity that's supposed to be devoid of frustration, but I haven't encountered those people, outside of MMOs. YMMV though.

 

Hey Remianen not to change the subject but are you still playing champions.

 

Yup. I pop in to Champions a couple times a week. Phoenix Flight is my shizzle!

 

And you have people on the other side of the spectrum who can't figure why these games don't charge more per month. 15$/month is ridiculously cheap for the section of the market that plays a lot. As an economist, I see a wasted opportunity to make money there as I'm sure that section of the player base would be willing to pay a lot more than the 15$. That sum divided by the time some players put in a game is very low. Let's just take my personal example with WoW. I only play for raiding, I don't care about the rest of this game. At most, I play 2 blocks of 3 hours per week, which totals 24 hours per month. 15$/24 hours = 0,625$/hour ! That's cheap leisure time right there !

 

I'm not saying all the subscription based game should charge more than 15$, but I believe there should be more options in the market. I could see a payment model charging different amounts to different people. Wanna access the whole game ? That's 25$. Just the PvP arenas ? That's 10$. To be honest, I can even some see niche games charging a lot more money per month. It already exists with some cash shop games, but a portion of the market is simply against the mere existence of those, so the multiple options for subscriptions would circumvent that.

 

I'm one of those people who believes these games should get off the $15 a month schtick and charge more, if the game is deep and high quality enough. I'd pay twice that if TOR is HALF the game it's being hyped to be. As you point out, even with a higher price point, I still get ridiculous value from my subscription.

 

If I like a game, I'll buy the lifetime option (if available) or go by annual billing. The cost is standard across all games: $143.40 for a year's subscription (after the standard discount). SOE offers a two year subscription for $199.99. Math: My xfire says I've spent 554 hours playing Champions Online (which is ridiculously low because I don't always run xfire). Let's say that's 800 hours. I bought the lifetime pre-launch for $250. That's 31 cents per hour of entertainment. This week, I've played 17 hours of Star Trek Online. Monthly sub is $15. If I don't log in again in June, I will have paid 88 cents per hour of entertainment. The more I play, the lower that goes. I'll cop the lifetime (for $300) when this month's sub lapses on the 27th. Show me a form of entertainment (outside of your own imagination) you can enjoy for less than $1 an hour. How about one that provides the endless entertainment that adding more humans to the mix (with all their various personalities and idiosyncrasies) typically offers?

 

I will agree that if you're super casual and only log in once every great while, freemium works to your advantage. You're not likely to level fast enough to really need to access those purchasable areas and doodads, for one thing. By the time you "need" those areas, they'll probably be free or nearly so (since they will have been surpassed by other content). EQ2's adventure packs come to mind (pre "freemium"). I'm not that kind of player and probably never will be. While I'm not nearly as hardcore as I was during my EQ1 days (when the terms 'DKP' and 'loot diet' first entered gaming parlance, thanks to Thott & Hobben), I'm still a far cry from casual. Not too many casual players have an entire guild composed of their 36 accounts, for one. So my entertainment costs are miniscule compared to the value I derive from them. If you spent more time playing a game (or several games) more than talking on your landline phone or watching the garbage on cable/satellite TV, I'm sure you wouldn't see anything wrong with a subscription.

 

But my point was about CHOICE. Right now, you can choose to play a freemium game or a flat subscription game or a combination of the two (EVE being an example of a hybrid: being able to pay for gametime with the money you earn in the game). Ten years ago, there was no choice. Everything was subscription (EQ1, DAoC, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, etc). For the record, at the moment, I have 27 "free to play" games installed on my computer. I've played them all at least a bit, so I have no problems with them at all. But I don't expect people to pour tens of millions of dollars into producing a game to leave it to the goodwill of players who might not see the big picture. Like, people whined about being tired of fantasy based games....and let the games that weren't fantasy die on the vine. You wouldn't risk your money on something that wasn't a sure thing (which fantasy IS. It's proven), why would you expect others to if there's no evidence a non-fantasy game without a big name IP can succeed?

 

Oh yeah, and here's my Devania (thumb due to my resolution possibly warping the thread):

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Kension/APB%20Reloaded/th_DevaniaAPB.jpg

[ZMAN]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31394" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>These games are not inexpensive to create or launch or support and develop so subscription fees are one way for developers to justify their continued existence. </div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Then don't launch them. Release a prequel to the MMO in order to test the waters and see how popular your idea gets. Like umm Torchlight, Diablo and Guildwars did. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31394" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>WoW didn't bring anything NEW to the genre (it polished the hell out of what was already there but there were next to no truly NEW things it brought forward)</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Something EQ2 and a couple other companies could have done, but didn't. Polished, sure whatever, it still brought a new experience to players(roughly 10 million now?) that no other MMO had offered. That along with a large fanbase from SC2 WC2, and D2. So I'm sure they knew going in that they would hook people instantly. They had the track record, so why not charge people? </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31394" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Every individual player has a right to decide whether a game is "good enough" to support with their dollars (or pounds or Euro or whatever). Saying that games shouldn't have subscriptions if they don't bring anything new is reducing/limiting/removing that choice. Besides, the market will determine how well a pricing system works (as we've already seen)</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Well, then luckily I guess there's a small fanbase out there that will appreciate these because I'm definitely not throwing down $15 a month or signing for whatever gold/silver subscription plan is out there. Not worth it when I can just go back to WoW and have roughly the same gaming experience (probably better). </p><p> </p><p> I honestly don't think freemium is going to change much. I think it's the actual MMO games that need to change and not really the whole subscription plan. I've played these freemium games (EQ2 (crazy how low those guys have sunken) D&D, Hellgate) and even with the free subscription they are boring, time consuming, and dead. Warhammer was alright I guess, but I think it only had me hooked for about a month until I forgot it existed. (cool ideas, just broken) The last MMO I bought was Rift and I haven't even touched it. I don't know why I bought it, I get sleepy just looking at it.</p><p> </p><p> I don't get it, why continue to polish what WoW already polished 6 years ago?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> I don't know how I feel about this APB. The customization is pretty cool, havent had time to really dig in yet. I see they have some kind of market place though, so I imagine theres gonna be some crazy ass running around with his $15 (or-wait 6000 gold points!) worth of rocket pistols.</p>

[mjdgoldeneye]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31394" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm one of those people who believes these games should get off the $15 a month schtick and charge more, if the game is deep and high quality enough. I'd pay twice that if TOR is HALF the game it's being hyped to be. As you point out, even with a higher price point, I still get ridiculous value from my subscription.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Remianen" data-cite="Remianen" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31394" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>But I don't expect people to pour tens of millions of dollars into producing a game to leave it to the goodwill of players who might not see the big picture. Like, people whined about being tired of fantasy based games....and let the games that weren't fantasy die on the vine. You wouldn't risk your money on something that wasn't a sure thing (which fantasy IS. It's proven), why would you expect others to if there's no evidence a non-fantasy game without a big name IP can succeed?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> These two parts seem to be at odds.</p><p> </p><p> Don't you think charging above what consumers expect is especially risky?</p><p> </p><p> One must remember that, contrary to the conditions under which economists make assumptions, consumers really aren't that logical. If there's a big picture you're worried players won't see, I'd recommend putting your money on valuation.</p><p> </p><p> You can let someone play a game and know with a certainty that they enjoy it, then outline the exact logic you gave, and they still won't go for it citing something like "But, that one's $15 a month!"</p><p> </p><p> You're ultimately not going to attract enough people. The early days of any MMO really banks on attracting hordes of short term players who fade away just as the true player base builds up on word of mouth and just the general passage of time.</p><p> </p><p> I read some thing that showed interesting population ratios for WoW and other games (not just MMOs) and the player turnover % (with regards to people with subscriptions at some point) for WoW in the first 6 months or so was incredibly high and dropped and dropped as the number of consistent players grew.</p><p> </p><p> Seeing as WoW is the most visible MMO on the market and I'd say most successful, how do you think a game with a higher price point will fare? The turnover will be even higher (unless people flat out don't play it).</p><p> </p><p> It's a crappy situation because you need to attract people (which freemium stuff does really well), but you can't exactly suddenly say "Ok, this stuff now costs this and this costs this." because once your content pricing is down, it's a bit of a PR nightmare to change it. Sure, there will always be diehards who will sell their soul so they can play forever without limits, but they alone can't support any of these sorts of games because there will always be suits who need to see stability from the word go (even in spite of signs of profit potential as sustainability keeps them from tearing their hair out) and, frankly, you need more people than them. It compounds, too. The more players you have, the more people who can vouch for the quality of the service.</p><p> </p><p> Basically, the zeal of the enthusiastic clouds the fact that MMO's to begin with are fairly niche and it's quite dangerous to get too confident from the start because the content doesn't seem to mean as much, ultimately, as the draw and the ability to say "Hey, stick around, it's only $15 a month).</p>

[Remianen]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mjdgoldeneye" data-cite="mjdgoldeneye" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="31394" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>These two parts seem to be at odds.<p> </p><p> Don't you think charging above what consumers expect is especially risky?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Sure it is. But there has to be a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. The so-called "MMO tourist" will be the death of the genre. And it's only at odds if your entire perspective of the MMO genre revolves around Azeroth. It costs far more than $15 a month to play Second Life and Project Entropia (unless you just want to be a spectator). The "problem" with the genre started with EverQuest. Both UO and Meridian59 had fairly modest playerbases (topping out at around 100k for UO, pre-Trammell). Then EQ comes out and expands the market almost fivefold. Then WoW comes out and blows it up even further. Now, instead of shooting for 250k subs at launch, everyone's trying to get 5 million, which is beyond unrealistic. Trying to do WoW numbers is like banking on paying your rent based on the proceeds from the lottery ticket you just bought.</p><p> </p><p> And saying MMOs are 'niche' is ignoring the fact that every major entertainment entity has at least one MMO (cross platform or not) in development right now. Every one of them. Viacom launched one for Nickelodeon, Marvel's got one in the works, Sony just launched one. People don't generally look to plaster niches with product this expensive. The way MMOs have evolved since 2004, they're all trying to appeal to the GCD ("get to max level in 5 minutes!"), which makes them more mainstream friendly (and "inclusive"). This is like hip hop in a lot of ways. Once the suits see it sells to a demo with some cash, they want to flood the market with similar acts hoping to capitalize. Is hip hop still niche? MMOs are a market segment that haven't even reached its teen years yet. Compare it to consoles. I was one of the only people in my neighborhood with an Atari 7800 when it came out (ditto for the 2600 and 5200). Now, "everybody" has a console of some sort. I sure as hell wish MMOs still were niche. Things were a helluva lot better back then. Basically, the growth trajectory for this "niche" far outstrips that of any other segment of gaming. Ten years ago, there were five MMOs available in North America. Now, there are <strong><em>FIVE HUNDRED</em></strong> (including the browser based ones). What other segment of gaming has grown a hundred fold in the last decade? People who truly believe this is a niche market need to step out of the "Triple-A" hype vortex and <a href="http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm" rel="external nofollow">look around</a>. </p><p> </p><p> I was only speaking for myself (and several friends) when I said I'd pay more. I remember when EverQuest rolled out their premium server (Stormhammer. $39.99 a month) and it was jam packed for almost 2 solid years. The concept only failed when Sony (being Sony) stopped providing the services that were promised with the added price. Then again, that was pre-WoW and the market has changed significantly since 2004. But I do believe there are a lot of folks out there willing to pony up more than $15 a month for a game that they feel is worth it. I believe there should be some stratification in the market and there will be, eventually. Just like everyone isn't meant to own a Maybach or Bentley or even a simple S-class, likewise there should be games that don't cater to the GCD (like the so-called "time-starved gamer"). The profit potential is enticing. The problem is delivering the goods.</p>

[MrOnu]

All this is based on a little economic premise : one way to maximize your revenues is to do perfect price discrimination; you'd maximize your revenues if you could sell every single unit to the exact willingness to pay of each individual. You almost never see that in reality, the amount of information needed on each person is ridiculous, but that's the theory.

 

Imperfect price discrimination is pretty common though. Charging less money to seniors or students is probably the most common example. Companies are charging different amounts to different category of people because they assume different willingnesses to pay in broad market segments and that they have a better chance to attract more customer that way. The MMO market, dare I say the entire online gaming market, is still very young as Remi pointed out. As the market tends to a more mature state, companies are going to try different avenues to maximize their revenues and profits in order to survive the stiff competition. Price discrimination is probably going to be one of those avenues and that's where marketing departments are going to shine or sink. I assume we'll probably see both ways of price discrimination in the future. Type A : regular market price (15$ in this case it seems) with discounted price for different targets. Type B : premimued (sp?) market price (over 15$) with regular priced schemes to grab another segment.

 

And really that is all only a ploy to circumvent cash shops because they affraid many customers in this side of the world

[MrOnu]

Tried APB a bit. I can see the potential, but I'm so horrible that I'm not having fun. I'm currently debating if I should try a bit more or just move on.