Marvel mod circa 1991

Hive · November 20, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ah, Hive. I kind of found around that, and re-edited my post, lol!!!! That new question still fits.</div></blockquote> Ah yes, didn't notice the edit... well I definately agree with you that it's a bit low. But as long as we're consistent, I'm not sure it'll be a huge issue. And besides... humans shouldn't really be the top of the crop in any stat, I'd say. But yeah, the rpg stats are certainly not perfect for this purpose. If anyone have alternatives, I'm certainly all ears.

KColl · November 20, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The numbers based on the RPG game would have the smartest humans (Richards) At 500.</div></blockquote> Shrug. i disagree. But hey, no-one has to use my chars.

lazorbeak · November 20, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm looking at the Classic RPG, and that's really helpful, but I'm just curious about the conversion. For example: I'm looking at Batman: Reason: Incredible. Converted would be: 31-32. CBH would be 310-320. To me, this is just above average for a human? When someone is lauded as "The World's Greatest Detective", how would that fit in the CBH world? How many people, in your opinion, would have better Reasoning than Batman?</div></blockquote> The website has all the modules that came with the game that explain this stuff more in depth but the short version is: Reason has nothing to do with "deduction" in the Marvel RPG. Reason is the ability to tinker and invent, the ability to learn and understand complex or alien technology, etc. Intuition on the other hand is what determines a hero's ability to notice a clue, get the drop on someone, etc. Hence Batman isn't nearly the inventor Reed Richards or Lex Luthor is, but he's also got better intuition than them. As a human though, his intuition is not as good as somebody like Daredevil who has super senses or Silver Surfer who has cosmic awareness. Also, as others have pointed out, the game isn't meant to scale on a 1:1 ratio. There's a certain exponential curve in the Marvel RPG as far as the numbers go. Unearthly strength is a 100 on the Marvel RPG scale, but probably around a 900 on the CBH scale. Likewise a typical hired goon in the MRPG would have around a 6/100 for strength, but in Adam's game that same goon (or group of goons) would have around 200-250 in strength. That's just for strength, too- the scale has to be adjusted for other skills and certain skills in CBH don't have a real equivalent. But it does provide a really good reference tool as it measures who the game considers to be in what skill class.

Ockbald · November 20, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KColl" data-cite="KColl" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Shrug. i disagree. But hey, no-one has to use my chars.</div></blockquote> Honestly, we are using Adam's database as base, the RPG should help you guys visualize the powerlevels, however you need to use the context we are given for balance of the game. Reed would be probably be close to Reboot.

Hive · November 20, 2011

The thing just is that the InfinityVerse is much more geared towards an Earth-focus, where the earth heroes are the top of the crop, than the Marvel-universe. And I don't feel that just because several humans can have maxed out reason in the default database, they should in a mod as well.

I fully understand the logic behind looking towards the default database as a template for balance reasons; however, I also feel that making a mod exactly like the default database, just with other names, is completely redundant.

Hive · November 24, 2011

I found a couple of other sources that might be helpful, based on Marvel's very own (but limited in scope) classification system:

http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Power_Grids

And here, a handy list of everyone falling into every level in each cathegory:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Power_Grid

Also, I was thinking about popularity... maybe one should simply more or less ignore the "popularity" sound to it, and for the most part just base it on power levels? Except maybe for characters who may be powerful in 1991 but are not yet very well-known. Especially legendary and iconic characters should be limited (although not to as few as in the default database, on the grounds that the Marvel Universe is a lot bigger).

I'm thinking something like this:

Iconic characters:

Only the very strongest characters in the entire universe... like:

Galactus, Thanos, The Beyonder, Phoenix, etc.

Legendary characters:

Characters who on their own can be a major threat to most worlds when really p-ed off, but rarely threats to the entire universe as above... like:

Silver Surfer, Hulk, Apocalypse, etc.

Major league:

Important and well-known characters who may be close to legendary characters but not quite there. These are the top of the crop of the earth-born heroes and villains with a few legendary exceptions... like:

Professor X, Thor, Magneto (or should he be legendary...? I'm undecided), Dr. Strange, Iron-Man, Captain America (mostly due to status, not powers), etc.

Renowned:

Big characters who are not quite major league... like Spider-Man, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, etc.

...and so on.

Thoughts? Comments? Critique?

DeadCeleb · November 24, 2011

The only thing I would disagree with that list is where you put Spider-Man really. I'd bump him up into Major League. Just based on how the Marvel Universe seems to treat him really.

KColl · November 24, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hive" data-cite="Hive" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I found a couple of other sources that might be helpful, based on Marvel's very own (but limited in scope) classification system: <a href="http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Power_Grids" rel="external nofollow">http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Power_Grids</a> And here, a handy list of everyone falling into every level in each cathegory: <a href="http://marvel.wikia.com/Power_Grid" rel="external nofollow">http://marvel.wikia.com/Power_Grid</a> Also, I was thinking about popularity... maybe one should simply more or less ignore the "popularity" sound to it, and for the most part just base it on power levels? Except maybe for characters who may be powerful in 1991 but are not yet very well-known. Especially legendary and iconic characters should be limited (although not to as few as in the default database, on the grounds that the Marvel Universe is a lot bigger). I'm thinking something like this: Iconic characters: Only the very strongest characters in the entire universe... like: Galactus, Thanos, The Beyonder, Phoenix, etc. Legendary characters: Characters who on their own can be a major threat to most worlds when really p-ed off, but rarely threats to the entire universe as above... like: Silver Surfer, Hulk, Apocalypse, etc. Major league: Important and well-known characters who may be close to legendary characters but not quite there. These are the top of the crop of the earth-born heroes and villains with a few legendary exceptions... like: Professor X, Thor, Magneto (or should he be legendary...? I'm undecided), Dr. Strange, Iron-Man, Captain America (mostly due to status, not powers), etc. Renowned: Big characters who are not quite major league... like Spider-Man, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, etc. ...and so on. Thoughts? Comments? Critique?</div></blockquote> Doesn't look right to me at all, sorry. But I'd be basing popularity on nothing to do with their power levels, it's how they're viewed by their fellow heroes and the populace of the world in general. For example, Beta Ray & Thor are roughly the same power. And yet, Beta Ray is far less well known in general than Thor. You're not suggesting because their power levels are similar they should have the same popularity are you????

Hive · November 24, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KColl" data-cite="KColl" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Doesn't look right to me at all, sorry. But I'd be basing popularity on nothing to do with their power levels, it's how they're viewed by their fellow heroes and the populace of the world in general. For example, Beta Ray & Thor are roughly the same power. And yet, Beta Ray is far less well known in general than Thor. You're not suggesting because their power levels are similar they should have the same popularity are you????</div></blockquote> I see your point, but then again I think this whole "popularity" thing is a bit skewed and hard to judge... first of all, none of the villains can be said to be "popular" at all - they are feared. Secondly, popular where...? On earth? If so, then yes, Thor is certainly FAR more popular than Beta Ray Bill. In fact, Beta Ray Bill would have to be very low on the list. Who on earth knows much about him? But then Thor would be able to pretty much kick his ass all the time with little effort, due to the advantages given by having a high popularity, which just wouldn't be right - since, as you said yourself, they have the same powers. Also, why should earth necessarily be the template for popularity? I'm sure Beta Ray Bill is probably better-known than Thor in many parts of Cosmic Marvel. And take Spider-Man, a far more popular character than a basically unknown such as Gladiator from the Shiar Imperial Guard. But should Spider-Man then get a lot more rolls than him and thus be able to best him in combat? I really don't think so, no... Also, since popularity is used to determine who the characters/teams are likely to face (as I understand it), power levels should definately be taken into consideration imo.

KColl · November 24, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hive" data-cite="Hive" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I see your point, but then again I think this whole "popularity" thing is a bit skewed and hard to judge... first of all, none of the villains can be said to be "popular" at all - they are feared. Secondly, popular where...? On earth? If so, then yes, Thor is certainly FAR more popular than Beta Ray Bill. In fact, Beta Ray Bill would have to be very low on the list. Who on earth knows much about him? But then Thor would be able to pretty much kick his ass all the time with little effort, due to the advantages given by having a high popularity, which just wouldn't be right - since, as you said yourself, they have the same powers. Also, why should earth necessarily be the template for popularity? I'm sure Beta Ray Bill is probably better-known than Thor in many parts of Cosmic Marvel. And take Spider-Man, a far more popular character than a basically unknown such as Gladiator from the Shiar Imperial Guard. But should Spider-Man then get a lot more rolls than him and thus be able to best him in combat? I really don't think so, no... Also, since popularity is used to determine who the characters/teams are likely to face (as I understand it), power levels should definately be taken into consideration imo.</div></blockquote> So Thor hasn't had dozens of adventures in space with the Avengers? Far better known character. Popularity isn't popularity per sae, it's how well-known a char is to a) the world in general and b) the other metas specifically. For example, someone like say Captain America is very iconic, one of the world's most recognisble figures and a leader of the Avengers despite being relatively un-powered. While by comparison, Blue Marvel (not a 90s char but the best example I can think of), is up there with Thor, Superman etc., but doesn't mean spit as regards being recognised. Power <> Popularity.

Hive · November 24, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="KColl" data-cite="KColl" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So Thor hasn't had dozens of adventures in space with the Avengers? Far better known character. Popularity isn't popularity per sae, it's how well-known a char is to a) the world in general and b) the other metas specifically. For example, someone like say Captain America is very iconic, one of the world's most recognisble figures and a leader of the Avengers despite being relatively un-powered. While by comparison, Blue Marvel (not a 90s char but the best example I can think of), is up there with Thor, Superman etc., but doesn't mean spit as regards being recognised. Power <> Popularity.</div></blockquote> So you want to make Captain American either iconic or legendary? That could potentially see him go up against a guy like Thanos 1 on 1... that's not right to me. Maybe the perfect solution is mixing popularity and power when deciding ingame popularity, it's just hard to find a consistent formula for that...

KColl · November 24, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hive" data-cite="Hive" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So you want to make Captain American either iconic or legendary? That could potentially see him go up against a guy like Thanos 1 on 1... that's not right to me. Maybe the perfect solution is mixing popularity and power when deciding ingame popularity, it's just hard to find a consistent formula for that...</div></blockquote> Eh, no. You get where I said powers <> popularity? You also get where Cap tops out about 600 for everything while Thanos tops out at 900 +. In addition to Thanos having a ton of powers that Cap doesn't. Huge difference and if you can't see that... Popularity = how recognisable a character is and how well regarded\respected. Icons are Cap, the Fantastics, Doom etc. You could argue Thanos is up there, but you basing it purely on power is completely and utterly wrong. You don't think for example that the Hulk is instantly more recognisable than a similarly powered Blue Marvel, Gilgamesh, or Kruse? Because by your standards, just because their physical power match or even exceed the Hulk you'd have them higher up the popularity scale. Does not compute.

Hive · November 24, 2011

I think you're being unnecessarily rude and condescending here, so I'm gonna stop discussing this issue with you. There's really no reason for such behaviour in a discussion about comic book characters. I have, however, dug up some comments from Ryland on popularity that might wisen up us all: <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Popularity will be addressed in Monday's entry; the short version is that it has nothing to do with how well the character is known within the game world, it's how well they are known to comic book fans - the former wouldn't make any sense, as it would mean anyone who works underground would be easily beatable.</div></blockquote> and <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Finally, it should be noted that the popularity of characters (and therefore their number of rolls) is not about the real-life sales of their comic books or how many issues they appear in. As you can see from the above, it's more of a broad term for their place within their respective comic book world, and so any good database maker will be tweaking the popularity to achieve the correct results within the game, not slavishly trying to measure it by sales figures.</div></blockquote> I'm still undecided on just what to do about popularity.

James Casey · November 24, 2011

Think of it this way: Who would they fight?

A man should be judged by his enemies, and all that. How serious a threat is the character in universe? That's their level of popularity - a mixture of renown, power and ability. A few examples of how I believe the ratings can be interpreted:

Onslaught: Terrifies people, has/had huge power and can/could do near enough anything he/it wanted. He was recognised as a world-ender, and should be rated as such - I would suggest Legendary, although arguably Major League would be more appropriate.

Captain America: In terms of sheer power, Cap's not on the same page as a lot of his allies or enemies. But in his case he's a leader with huge respect from people way more powerful than him. He's at the top end of human/near-human heroes in any time period purely for his influence and ability to go up against much more 'dangerous' enemies. He's Renowned, but can command allies much more popular (game mechanic definition) than he is such as Thor, Hercules and so on. Cap on his own would be a Combat Wombat kind of guy - but his teams would be capable of huge feats when they work together.

Magneto: His goal (in 1991) is world domination, and he has the power, drive, charisma and intelligence to potentially pull it off. Tellingly, it's not long after this point where Xavier assembles the strike force to go in and kill Magneto. I would see KiloWatt in the default database as being the Magneto analogue, so Major League feels right.

Spider-Man: Renowned again - He tends to fight the street-level hoods, but at the same time he can throw down with the Doc Ocks and even Dr Dooms of the world. He's also highly-regarded enough in-universe to be accepted as an Avenger and a member of the FF, and even if that's a long way off in the mod's future, he's still well regarded in the timeframe. You could, however, argue the case for him being 'just' Well Known at this point, but I think I'd say that given how highly rated he'd be in nearly of the stats (only Magical [and, arguably, Technological as he's more a chemist/biologist, although he's mainly a huge science nerd] would be 'weak' for Spidey) he's probably Renowned... In that sort of area, anyway.

That's my two pennorth - hope it helps.

Hive · November 24, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="James Casey" data-cite="James Casey" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That's my two pennorth - hope it helps.</div></blockquote> You and I seem to pretty much share the same views on the matter. Cheers. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

Ockbald · November 24, 2011

I would have to say that Cap, Iron Man and Thor should all be Iconic.

Why? Well they are the guys facing the world ending threats, that's why. And with the exception of Thor their powers wouldn't be able to do much, so they need all the help they can to face the Void or Snake Lord dude from Fear Itself.

Now for other heroes being Iconic in the marvel universe...I wouldn't put anyone else in there. They are called "The Big Three" for a reason after all, they should be special.

TheSeanAlfe · November 25, 2011

I may be late to this, but popularity is only called popularity because of its function in the game's narrative. When you play the game, your goal is to make your character more popular "in the real world" by succeeding missions, and when you go up a level in popularity "in the real world," you get more rolls and ability points as sort of a reflection of how comic companies will allow characters to develop and become more powerful when they get popular. Marvel usually wouldn't allow an all new hero to immediately start tossing guys like Doom and Magneto and Thanos around, for instance. They've gotta get more popular.

Gameplay-wise, it doesn't affect anything that you would relate to popularity. It gives characters extra rolls on attacking/defending/puzzle solving, and allows heroes to tackle villains as high as three levels above them.

So when you're making a database, it's better to think of it as that character's "Level." Galactus, for instance, is Iconic, even though he's not that popular in real life. Dr. Doom, despite being an "iconic villain," definitely wouldn't be "Iconic" level. He's just not on the same level as Galactus.

Just my understanding if it. Sorry to intrude.

djthefunkchris · November 25, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Ah, Hive. I kind of found around that, and re-edited my post, lol!!!! That new question still fits.</div></blockquote> It will balance itself out in the gameworld as long as you do it for the villains as well..... It's only the player character that will have an upper hand... but Marvel is so full of very strong character's that it doesn't matter if the player character is starting at nearly human maximums in every stat (without being a genious or having Batman type background). <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>The default database is always a good place to start, as that's already balanced. By mimicking the power levels used there you can make a solid start, and simply tweak them through playtesting if you need them to change.</div></blockquote> To be honest, at least to me, the Default database doesn't have nearly the power level difference that an actual comicbook based reality would. Your cosmic beings are able to be physically hit by mere mortals, and take damage, for example... A powerful cosmic being hit by a mere mortal in the comics (and I don't care if it is Batman), isn't going to suffer any damage.... outside of pride when Batman uses his own weight against him and has him on his back. There's just no way Batman is going to defeat someone like Darkseid, without aid outside of his fighting ability. As I said, this could all be made with the current database, very realistically... by just upping the limits on ability scores, splitting attributes up a bit, or letting the modder set the "Average" statistics for their mod *So the player character starts at a more reasonable ability level. Far as powers go, I like them alot, the only thing I would like to be able to do their is to set up my own base damage. Edit: IF the average human was like almost exactly the same as in the TEW or WMMA games, it would give the modder alot more room.

Ockbald · November 25, 2011

So you want to make Captain American either iconic or legendary? That could potentially see him go up against a guy like Thanos 1 on 1... that's not right to me.

Maybe the perfect solution is mixing popularity and power when deciding ingame popularity, it's just hard to find a consistent formula for that...

Thanos stats would be so over Cap's that I really don't think he could beat Thanos.

Thanos powers would also dish out way more damage than any Cap damage could ever do, while having more health than Cap and more energy.

Would Cap be utterly useless in that fight? Nope. He probably be even be able to hit a punch or two.

Would he brutally lose it despite being in the same popularity level? Yes.

Just like a Cap vs. Thanos fight would.

The true issue lies within team fights. How about Thanos vs. Thor, Iron Man and Cap? Testing would need to be done by the mod maker to ensure that Thanos has the upper hand. The three can even beat him but it needs to be tough, a "1 out of 10" situation.

This is of course, regular Thanos. A gem powered Thanos would have so many resistances and other dirty atributtes under him I doubt the three would be able to do much even at iconic level.

I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here: Cap, Iron Man and Thor SHOULD fight world ending threats because that's what they do in events, most of the time.

HOWEVER

You need the context, the era that you are trying to reproduce. In 1991, you would need to read the characters and see if they saw much action against world ending threats and how they were portrait in such events.

In a modern marvel mod I would have pause putting Cap here; Could go either way, however Thor and Iron Man would be a no brainer, mostly because they handled some heavy stuff in several events in this past decade. Iron Man stats wouldn't be too high though. For instance, Iron Man fought the Void, even hit the Void, but got pretty much defeated and it was up to Thor with some power up help from Loki to end the fight.

I think the other point I'm trying to make here is: Popularity isn't -just- power levels. Atributtes and Powers are really important. Popularity should help you pair certain heroes to certain villains.

The counter argument to this is often "Well what about their villains?"

Most Cap villains would have better atributes and powers than him (MODOK comes to mind) but have less popularity, giving he a big chance to beat them but still be in danger of being defeated.

Just my two cents. This is how I make mods, I try to think as popularity as "match ups".

I've yet to make anyone Iconic in my Cosmic Marvel mod and in my secret mod only one character is Iconic (Dracula).

lazorbeak · November 25, 2011

I would have to say that Cap, Iron Man and Thor should all be Iconic.

Why? Well they are the guys facing the world ending threats, that's why. And with the exception of Thor their powers wouldn't be able to do much, so they need all the help they can to face the Void or Snake Lord dude from Fear Itself.

Now for other heroes being Iconic in the marvel universe...I wouldn't put anyone else in there. They are called "The Big Three" for a reason after all, they should be special.

Have you read much in the way of Cap or Iron Man comics? Since the relaunch Cap has faced off with Red Skull, Sinn, Crossbones, Dr. Faustus, Arnim Zola, his evil clone from the 1950's... hardly a "who's who" of 'world-ending threats.' Now the Avengers could be iconic level (I'd still say that's probably too high) and they would draw major threats on team missions to simulate the Avengers actually taking on world level threats, but Cap and Iron Man on their own are almost never working on that level.

And arguing that Captain America and Thanos should be in the same popularity level is arguing that in terms of gameplay, Cap should be close to equal footing- and history has shown that's just not true. He's not even a threat, one on one, against Thanos or any other heavy hitter. Just from an AI perspective, "iconic" feels totally off. He won't even get involved in moderate level threats that generally take up most of his solo series, and gets pummeled every time he tries to take on Thanos or Galactus or whoever.

The short version is a Cap around level 7-8 can still be a big impact player without being a completely ineffective paper tiger. Also if you are playing as Cap starting at level 8 will give you two big bonuses for increasing in popularity that will at least give you a chance to compete with bigger threats. I just don't see any evidence in Adam's data, Cap's history, or anything else that treats him as the premiere hero of the MU.

So when you're making a database, it's better to think of it as that character's "Level." Galactus, for instance, is Iconic, even though he's not that popular in real life. Dr. Doom, despite being an "iconic villain," definitely wouldn't be "Iconic" level. He's just not on the same level as Galactus.

Yup, definitely. Doom should be a character that seems like a big hurdle for lower tiers to beat with his high reasoning and broad powers, but he's not some unstoppable force and isn't treated as a true top tier threat- he's obviously the Fantastic Four's biggest recurring enemy, but that's about it.

Honestly I'd hesitate to put any but the top 2-3 active heroes in the MU at "iconic" level because again, in Adam's data, there's only 2 active heroes in the universe at that level- one is a Superman pastiche (arguably both are to some extent), and the other is a Dr. Manhattan type powerhouse that is able to travel between dimensions and through time. Only Thor and maybe Silver Surfer even approach that level of power outside of cosmic entities like the Celestials.

Ockbald · November 25, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Have you read much in the way of Cap or Iron Man comics? Since the relaunch Cap has faced off with Red Skull, Sinn, Crossbones, Dr. Faustus, Arnim Zola, his evil clone from the 1950's... hardly a "who's who" of 'world-ending threats.</div></blockquote> He also faced bigger threats. He did both! Just not on his book. His book has a "super spy" feeling that only Brubaker can do. I'm a big fan of his current on going actually. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>And arguing that Captain America and Thanos should be in the same popularity level is arguing that in terms of gameplay, Cap should be close to equal footing- and history has shown that's just not true. He's not even a threat, one on one, against Thanos or any other heavy hitter. Just from an AI perspective, "iconic" feels totally off. He won't even get involved in moderate level threats that generally take up most of his solo series, and gets pummeled every time he tries to take on Thanos or Galactus or whoever.</div></blockquote> Now that's the best argument I've seen here so far. The AI won't pair him up with his regular cast of villains, yet he do shows up in world ending threats. I think for Cap, this means he is the middle of the road popularity wise. What do you think?

lazorbeak · November 25, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Ockbald" data-cite="Ockbald" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He also faced bigger threats. He did both! Just not on his book. His book has a "super spy" feeling that only Brubaker can do. I'm a big fan of his current on going actually.</div></blockquote> Not in his own series though, which was my point. The Avengers have done a lot of heavy lifting lately, but Cap generally doesn't deal with big-time threats on his own. And the game makes a distinction between team reputation and player reputation. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Ockbald" data-cite="Ockbald" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think for Cap, this means he is the middle of the road popularity wise. What do you think?</div></blockquote> I think he fits in around Level 7 "renowned," which is where the default data puts characters like Combat Wombat and Immortal Swordsman.

Payne · November 26, 2011

I think, with all due respect, it might be time to ask Adam his advice, with specific detail.

It's a hard thing, but I think you've got it good. Iconic being the Galactus' of the universe.

Anyway, Hive, any chance on getting what you've been working on so far? A "beta" or "Pre-release" perhaps?

Hive · November 26, 2011

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="TheSeanAlfe" data-cite="TheSeanAlfe" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So when you're making a database, it's better to think of it as that character's "Level." Galactus, for instance, is Iconic, even though he's not that popular in real life. Dr. Doom, despite being an "iconic villain," definitely wouldn't be "Iconic" level. He's just not on the same level as Galactus.</div></blockquote> That's my viewpoint as well. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Just my understanding if it. Sorry to intrude.</div></blockquote> You're not intruding, I value all input on. <img alt=":)" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/smile.png.142cfa0a1cd2925c0463c1d00f499df2.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /> <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="lazorbeak" data-cite="lazorbeak" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Now the Avengers could be iconic level (I'd still say that's probably too high) and they would draw major threats on team missions to simulate the Avengers actually taking on world level threats, but Cap and Iron Man on their own are almost never working on that level.</div></blockquote> That's the thing: Captain America, Thor, Iron Man... yes, they all often participated in key roles in major events against major foes - but not alone. They did so as part of a team, and the way I see a team like The Avengers or Fantastic Four, they can and should have higher reputation than their individual members. I see The Avengers at 'legendary', personally. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Ockbald" data-cite="Ockbald" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think the other point I'm trying to make here is: Popularity isn't -just- power levels. Atributtes and Powers are really important. Popularity should help you pair certain heroes to certain villains.</div></blockquote> I completely agree, and that's why I don't want to see the game pitching a guy like Captain America against Thanos and Galactus one on one, but only as part of a team. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Anyway, Hive, any chance on getting what you've been working on so far? A "beta" or "Pre-release" perhaps?</div></blockquote> I haven't really added more than 4 characters and a bunch of A/T/D stuff so far, as I've been researching and thinking about issues such as stats, powers and popularity. But I'll see if I can get some work done on it over the weekend.

Pinke · November 26, 2011

With Captain America I'd suggest Major League.

That puts Captain America within three levels either way of his normal villains as well as his allies.

Alternatively, give him the attribute that allows him to do battle with greater threats.

People might be overlooking that Captain America should also have Leadership 3 (to be honest I wouldn't even give this to Mister Fantastic). That's two rolls on attacks, and one roll on defense for everyone on his team. I'd also consider balancing the character around his vibranium shield. This shield can (at least in previous cannon) take some hilarious amounts of punishment and not transfer it through to the user on the other side. That would be shield 3 as well IMO. Possibly some other stats such as tactically aware, and argubly less likely to be attacked. He also had his force field shield for a while.

So you have an average character, with a strongish defense in most circumstances, who is giving his entire team some very nice bonus's. Any human player if placed against such a threat would want to focus fire him out the game as quickly as possible ... deceptively such a character would be a very powerful ally in a large team fight despite the low damage out put.

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