Request: A more detailed manual

[Runtheball]

As I've been playing I've come up with numerous questions that arent being answered in the documentation. They're minor things that may have been asked here before. A more thorough explanation of how some parts of the game work would be very helpful. As one example, during the recruiting period, my weekly emails tell me to stop recruiting so-and-so, so I cancel the recruiting effort and remove the guy from my watch list. But then even in subsequent weeks I still get the same advice to stop recruiting the same guy. Am I somehow still spending money on him? It seems my recruiting budget is dropping more than it should. Maybe this is a bug? I think that giving the manual a once-over (especially to address alot of the questions that have been asked in the forums) would be a good idea for the next patch.

[Runtheball]

I wasn't planning to create a list of things I wanted clarified in the manual, but now I can't resist. On the Standings screen, at the right side I see numbers like "Media 0-1" and "Coach 0-1". What do those numbers mean? Somewhere I read that the quality of competition at the high school level makes a difference in how well the recruit will perform (and gives added importance to his HS stats). Where can you see the quality of competition he had at his high school? This stuff belongs in the documentation.

[Arlie Rahn]

[QUOTE=Runtheball]I wasn't planning to create a list of things I wanted clarified in the manual, but now I can't resist. On the Standings screen, at the right side I see numbers like "Media 0-1" and "Coach 0-1". What do those numbers mean?[/quote] Record against current top 25 in the media and coach poll. [quote]Somewhere I read that the quality of competition at the high school level makes a difference in how well the recruit will perform (and gives added importance to his HS stats. Where can you see the quality of competition he had at his high school?[/quote] It's the number next to a kid's HS in the recruiting views (1-5). 1 is the best.

[hitmanwa]

A deteailed explanation of what each rating relates to would be nice too. ;)

[Dave Hansen]

I echo the request for an in-depth explanation for the physical attributes of players. When evaluating players at certain positions, what are the most important ones for that player, ie: WR ( acceleration, agility, speed...) and why. What is the impact of intelligence, discipline and instincts on the game? For OL and DL, what is the impact of the "hands" rating? This sim is excellent in its complexities and variables. :D It's challenging in itself to turn a program around.... just need all the insights I can get to help keep my job at Illinois. :rolleyes:

[TC Dale]

Actually I was surprised at the lack of depth of the manual. I was under the impression when it came up as a PDF file we were going to get something a bit more fuller and descriptive. It looks like the manual was completed over a weekend, instead of being developed over the time of a beta test. It is a good start, do not get me wrong, but I expected more professional layout and more indepth sections with more screenshots of the offseason since it is something that is much longer than a couple of clicks here and there. Like Dave Hansen said, player attributes, variables, scouting, preseason, and other inseason things could have been treated with a little more text and screenshots going into a little more depth than what we have here. What about letting your team handle setting the depth chart and you get an email about injured players, but when you check the roster, they are scheduled to play even when they are telling you, the coach, that they need to rest this week, month, etc.. The game continues to play them even if you make changes, but there is nothing in the manual how to set this so it sticks no matter if you are doing it manually or letting the PC coaching staff do it. Not surprised this didn't have a cover page or author. This was rushed to be finished, instead of taking the time to do it with more coverage and indepth discussion of game features and abilities to help out veteran players, and first timers to the genre.

[dime]

TC Dale: the manual was not "developed over a weekend". I welcome your misinformed feedback, however. let me explain a bit about how this was documented. when writing documentation for a computer game, there is a balance between providing information on how to PLAY the game versus giving information on how to BEAT the game. I wrote an instruction manual, it is not a strategy guide. I have, to err on the side of caution, written about how to PLAY the game. if I knew how to beat the game, I'm not sure I would document those strategies anyway. some things that are common sense in terms of football I did not document. (if you have a great running back, set your gameplan to run the ball a lot...) I did, however, explain how these things can be done, or how to scout an opponent (click the team to look at their roster and stats) as far as the attributes, I think it is pretty clear what they mean, and when you mouseover a column it tells you anyway (STR is strength, etc.) as far as what attributes are important to what position, I didn't see that as something that you need to have unveiled in order to appreciate the game. perhaps I was wrong. if you'd like a "cheat sheet" perhaps arlie could help with that and I'd be willing to write it if asked to. again, I don't know how to "beat" the game because there are so many variables that go into whether your team succeeds or fails. and you are incorrect: the manual tells you that you can remove a player from a depth chart by right-clicking on him. there is no "way" to automatically bench an injured player at this time. I didn't make a cover page or splash my name on it because I'm not a pretentious jerk...I am in no way ashamed of my work if that is your suspicion. the manual is 28 pages, which is quite long as it is. if you want a strategy guide AND something that explains the rules of football as a manual, I'd gladly pay you a couple hundred bucks and wait a few months for you to finish it. when you do, I'll complain that it's too long and didn't help me win the national championship. :D

[John Comey]

The TPF manual sucked, too. So, this isn't new. ;)

[Dave Hansen]

Dime- Do NOT take my comments in the same light as TC Dale's. I am not of that opinion of this game. I'll clarify what I am looking for by using TPB as an example. I have played TPB (BASKETBALL) for a couple of years and that product from Grey Dog has been an excellent sport sim. OOTP has resided on my hard drive for years also. Ditto TDCB. Having followed and posted threads in the TPB forum over the last couple of years, a wealth of information has been forthcoming that better helps to understand that game. There was an excellent FAQ that was posted on the TPB forum that was 17 pages in length. Included were comments on the following player attributes as they applied to a basketball player. Some examples: SCR-Scoring ability (THE PLAYER'S ABILITY TO GET OPEN OR CREATE HIS OWN SHOTS REGARDLESS OF MAKING THEM OR NOT) FGI/FGJ-inside and outside shooting ability (THE PLAYER'S ABILITY TO MAKE SHOTS THAT HE SHOOTS) Putting these two facts together helps explain the difference between an Iverson and say Stojakovic in how a game is played out. DI-discipline (IMPACTS ON HOW MANY FOULS A PLAYER COMMITS.) IQ-court intelligence (HOW WELL A PLAYER UNDERSTANDS THE GAME. IT HELPS HIM TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS ON THE COURT WITH THE BALL). Those facts help understand foul trouble and turnovers/quality shots for a player. Gary has responded to numerous posts I've made that has made the sim more enjoyable and understandable with out "giving away secrets or cheats" that render the game to easy. I am not looking for a detailed manual/strategy guide to be published in the next 24 hours. I guess for starters I would appreciate any insights on the effects of intelligence, discipline and instincts and how they "generally" effect gameplay. For instance: DISCIPLINE-effects the number of penalties a player incurs and/or his ability to carry out his assignment correctly for a particular play ....etc. TXS

[raindog]

I echo the request for a more detailed manual.

[Miral]

Me as well, things like discipline and aggression, we all know what they mean, but what exactly do they mean for the game and how does low aggression/discipline affect one's play. Not looking for a cheat, we're trying to have a firm grasp of the differences and definition of things. Clarity is important when juggling 20,000 possibilities.

[Meat]

I disagree with the above posts regarding attributes, to some degree. Knowing what a developer meant by a term for an attribute is one thing and I agree with the basketball sim post regarding an attribute like scoring, as it is the developers choice of terms. However, common things like agressiveness, int, strength ect need no explanation. When I started coaching HS in real life nobody came to me and gave me a manual with things like...Joe Blow has a 3.45 GPA which means he has an INT of 9... This will mean he will digest plays better and be able to run offensive sets better. Or his STR is 9 so he should be able to muscle peope around. Fact is even if you have a strong or intelligent kid it doesnt mean he will translate it effectively to the sport at hand... You need to take these variables that you have assessed and see how they work on the field. I think all the attributes in this game are pretty self explanatory, how much more clear could it be... Pass accuracey hmmmm what could that mean.... Arm strength??? Tough call there. Running ability? Run Blocking? Pass Blocking? Hands? Route running? Wow tough ones there! Durability? now I could see how that is confusing. Not sure on that one either.... If you want to know what numeric effect each catagorey has on the other, well thats just not realistic. Even attributes like discipline and such... Not to hard to figure out a kid with high discipline is not going commit as many penalties and do stupid things cause he works hard and listens in practice. How about work ethic... hmmm seams to me a kid who works real hard at something, is more likely to reach his potential and maybe even a little faster than a kid who lays around all day. But just maybe the kid with low work ethic, is super athletic and blossums anyway... What about the kid with High discipline and low intelligence you say??? Well he may work hard and know the plays but sometimes he's too stupid to remember the snap count from the huddle to the line and gets called for offsides alot. Do the real life logical math and stop asking for the in game numeric correlations. Stop asking for things to be handed to you, play the game...look at your players carefully and see overtime how certain players with certain attributes perform in your system...Thats what learning to be a good coach is. That is how its done in real life, that is how it should be done in a simulation that reflects or wants to reflect real life sports.

[Meat]

That Darn Manual writer, let me make a mistake again I just made a mistake in my game... I hired an OC that was way to expensive during the offseason and now I have no recruiting money for a good service or any money for anything else. Who's the horses ass that didnt put in the manual "If you spend all your money on an expensive coach, you may not have any money to recruit or pay medical staff!" That darn manual writer didnt tell me to use common sense. Now my next season of recruiting wont be good. Darn that manual writer... guess I'll have to learn from my mistake.

[slingblade73]

This is not a slam on anyone, but when people dont know basic football it makes it tough to help them understand. The recruiting is tough and I am a guru. I will see to it that we get some info out there to help the newer guys. It is not Arlies responsibility to teach football basics. You have to bring something to the table or learn as you go.

[heywood63]

I think what would be a good idea is maybe to have a thread where we can all discuss our methods and what has or hasn't worked for us. This can be for recruiting or offensive or defensive strategies or whatever. I think by reading the board it is fairly obvious that some of us are more familiar with the ins and outs of the game than the rest of us and maybe we can all learn something from each other........Merry Christmas

[BYU 14]

Meat and slingblade hit it right on the head. This game is a challenge and I am totally happy with what the manual offers. This is an area the community can step up in and provide strategy tips and the like. I thought what everyone wanted was a game that provided a realistic challenge? Not something you needed to play using a half dozen "House rules" with like TCY (A great game, but way too easy to master) Maybe a forum can be added here for strategy and tips and those who wish to contribute can.....A perfect example of community feedback like this on a game can be found in the SI forums. I know next to nothing about the intricacies of Soccer so the information there is really helpful to me. If all I had was the manual for that game I would struggle.....With help from the forums I have a good grasp on what to do and the game is immensely enjoyable. I honestly think a couple of the posts here attacking the lack of a manual are over the top.....Let the developers work on refining the game, if something doesn't make sense ask solicit thoughts from the community. The knowledge here covers the spectrum. A lot of people are new to Football, a lot of us have experience Coaching at the HS level or higher and I am sure everyone has something to share....how about another forum for that?

[Druez]

Look at it this way. Physical and Mental abilities make up a percentage of the raw football skill ability. So a fast and strong linebacker will have a better tackling rating. I don't know all the formulas and I hope they never get posted as it will ruin the game a bit. But, I can verify this. Every Skill - Route Running, Running, Pass Blocking etc... is made up partially by the raw attributes that go into using that skill. Like 10% Agility and 15% Speed plus raw skill value = your overall Running. [B]THIS IS NOT A REAL EXAMPLE. Just an idea of how it works.[/B] I know that skills are made up of quite a few attributes. So for example Intellengence can pretty much help a player in any skill in the game. Same for instincts...

[Runtheball]

[QUOTE=Runtheball]I wasn't planning to create a list of things I wanted clarified in the manual, but now I can't resist. On the Standings screen, at the right side I see numbers like "Media 0-1" and "Coach 0-1". What do those numbers mean? Somewhere I read that the quality of competition at the high school level makes a difference in how well the recruit will perform (and gives added importance to his HS stats). Where can you see the quality of competition he had at his high school? This stuff belongs in the documentation.[/QUOTE] Thought I should quote one of my original posts to bring the discussion back to its roots. I wouldn't want the manual to include cheats or ways to figure out the games logic, nor would I expect (or purchase) a strategy guide. Just a bit more documentation on some of the features in the game. Here's another example of things that I think ought to be in the manual: My team is finishing the ' 05 off-season, and we have -85000 in our budget. What will be the consequences of overspending the budget (and why would the university [i.e. the game's programming logic] even allow that to happen???) and will there be any opportunity to fix this deficit at a later stage? I didn't start the thread to blast the manual, only to request that some of the many questions brought-up here in the forums could be incorporated into the manual during a future revision.

[raindog]

First of all, except Comey and TC Dale, nobody blast the manual. I think dime has done a nice job. But I think too that it can be improved. Have you seen the online manual of Football Manager 2006? It includes a description of every attribute and skill, it tells you what are the most important attributes and skills for every position...and I never have seen in the FM forums somebody complaining about we must not know that info. [QUOTE=Druez]Look at it this way. Physical and Mental abilities make up a percentage of the raw football skill ability. So a fast and strong linebacker will have a better tackling rating. I don't know all the formulas and I hope they never get posted as it will ruin the game a bit. But, I can verify this. Every Skill - Route Running, Running, Pass Blocking etc... is made up partially by the raw attributes that go into using that skill. Like 10% Agility and 15% Speed plus raw skill value = your overall Running. [B]THIS IS NOT A REAL EXAMPLE. Just an idea of how it works.[/B] I know that skills are made up of quite a few attributes. So for example Intellengence can pretty much help a player in any skill in the game. Same for instincts...[/QUOTE] I don't want to know the %age because as you say it will ruin the game a bit but yes I want to know what attributes have an effect on every skill. I want to know it because the attributes that the developer thinks, can have an effect on a skill maybe are not the same attributes that I think have an effect on that skill.

[SkyDog]

Here's the problem, though: you're asking me to assume that every single aspect of the game of football is modeled in BBCF, if you want me to take the ratings at face value. Take even an obvious one like "arm strength." We all know what it means, but do we know [I]when it matters?[/i] No. In real life, we know that it can impact a 5-yard out pattern against a quick CB. However, for all we know, arm strength might only matter when throwing the deep ball. (If armstrength<65 then ball is underthrown...) Only Arlie knows that stuff for sure. For all the user knows, work ethic might impact the classroom, ability to live up to potential, or even how frustrated he might get if too much emphasis is put on conditioning during training. All of those three are plausible in real life, but the user doesn't know which of them is being modeled and which isn't. We need something like this: arm strength: impacts ability to throw deep passes, and also comes into play on timing routes work ethic: impacts a player's likeliness to reach his potential, and also his diligence in the classroom

[Druez]

[QUOTE=SkyDog]Here's the problem, though: you're asking me to assume that every single aspect of the game of football is modeled in BBCF, if you want me to take the ratings at face value. Take even an obvious one like "arm strength." We all know what it means, but do we know [I]when it matters?[/i] No. In real life, we know that it can impact a 5-yard out pattern against a quick CB. However, for all we know, arm strength might only matter when throwing the deep ball. (If armstrength<65 then ball is underthrown...) Only Arlie knows that stuff for sure. For all the user knows, work ethic might impact the classroom, ability to live up to potential, or even how frustrated he might get if too much emphasis is put on conditioning during training. All of those three are plausible in real life, but the user doesn't know which of them is being modeled and which isn't. We need something like this: arm strength: impacts ability to throw deep passes, and also comes into play on timing routes work ethic: impacts a player's likeliness to reach his potential, and also his diligence in the classroom[/QUOTE] Agreed, that should be done.

[slingblade73]

I am working on a basic guide. I hope the recruiting stays unpredictable, that is the whole point and makes the game fun.

[TC Dale]

Sorry if people thought I was blasting the manual work, I thought it was substandard to their previous manuals, and the barometer that I compare most of the manuals created for GDS' sports games, I use Total Pro Basketball 2005's manual. The manual creator helps the newcomer work thru the first few screens of the game along with tips and comments and screenshots of various stages in TPB 2K5. Yes there are a lot of screenshots, and sometimes they lead you thru every step of things that come up, but answers a few questions that the BBCF manual leaves unanswered, or lightly commented on without any complementary screenshots to help someone thru a difficult section. The company copyright and game graphics are prevalent in TPB 2K5, along with the obligatory legalese and listing of staff and testers, that BBCF manual didn't have, and brought out the thought this was rushed. I just believe that for one example, in BBCF's manual could have included the color buttons and what they mean for various screens, from recruiting to depth charts, to scheduling screens, there is not info on each screen that shows what the buttons mean,not on every screen does it explain, or does the appropriate section in the manual comment or explain them and what they mean. We all know there is something on the forum a post describing what they are, but the manual does not add that information, and in this case could make a difference by doing so. Confusion can result when someone doesn't know what they mean, and the manual doesn't make it clear. (Is blue cold, is red/burgendy hot, or is green average?? Hard to tell...) With the TPB 2K5 manual there were more screens and steps explained that could have been done here in the BBCF manual that weren't. No one can create the perfect manual, heck no. But we can go further with more information, graphical and textual. But it seems we could have had something similar to the Total Pro Basketball 2005 manual that would have helped a bit more by taking time to walk thru the beginning of the game, maybe even thru the playoffs and offseason hitting a few more sections of the game in detail. That way the fan has a reference point, and tips along the way to get them thru the tough sections. The best manual is the one written by the programmer of the game, but I have yet to see a programmer that has the time or desire to write his own manual for his game. :) I know I won't have the time, and that is something that has to be farmed out to the testers or R and D guys that each company uses. I am not saying Dime didn't work hard on his version, I just felt compared to previous manual productions, it could have been more detailed and a wee bit more professional in areas. Legally, the manual needed the company and game graphics/ logos/ and legal information, along with the list of testers, staff and thank you's in the manual. It wasn't included, which made me think that it was rushed, when as dime said it wasn't. Dime didn't drop the ball on that one, and I apologize to him for assuming he was in charge of it. :( Sorry Dime. That doesn't mean I hate GDS, I just felt someone should have caught that before release, and it makes Dime look bad because someone didn't finish what he started. I am not a GDS hater folks. BIG supporter of the games and creators, I just think it could have been so much better. As levels of knowledge in the game can't be assumed as the level of the creator, since all age groups will play or enjoy BBCF, you can't expect a 13 year old kid to know all the facets of college play, much less a 64 year old can explain what the Red Zone efficiency means. By assuming the audience expertise, we could lose some of the possible people and sales by not explaining a little bit what things or ideas are, even if we believe it isn't for sports nuts and statheads like us. :)

[Miral]

Lets not kid ourselves, its the trend. Back in the mid 80's (he doth show his age), games were tiny in size and scope, and the manual was intensely large and skipped nothing. Today the games are large and bulky and far more complex and the manual a tenth of its original size. Back in the day the manuals may well have been an entire book, nowadays its usuall printed on the leaflet on the inside of the CD case with a text file in the main directory that says readme...

[dime]

I don't think it's fair to compare TPB to BBCF, they are different games made by different people and are at different levels of development. You may as well compare it to OOTP (which didn't even have a manual until recently) or TEW or FOF, which are just as befuddling to "casual players" who haven't cracked how the game's algorithms work yet. I don't think anything is wrong with those games, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone dedicate an entire post to ripping them and their documentation.