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At What Point is it Cheating to You?


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Just a question, since I've seen a lot of people throw the word "exploit" or "cheat" whenever someone brings up a way around a situation that isn't totally pure. I just want to get a general consensus on what everyone thinks about that and what their line is between "problem solving" and "exploit" is.

 

To me, I try to play it as pure as possible within reason. If there is something innately wrong with the mod I'm using (Say The Rock was given low charisma or someone is in hiatus who is not) then I will fix it to better reflect reality.

 

Likewise, if I make a mistake that would have been caught in real life. (Non wrestling contract on an intended wrestler) I will also fix that as any idiot in real life would have more carefully examined the contract that they are giving to a wrestler.

 

Angels that give me good ratings and help promote young wrestlers without their lack of overness hurting me (Face off, no contact) I use all the time, because all promotions do this. The only reason the current generation of wrestlers know who Pat Patterson is is because he's Vinces stooge and comes out during angles that emulate this exact situation.

 

I draw the line however at using the editor simply to bump everyone's points up, even if it doesn't reflect reality. Giving Hulk Hogan 100 in high flying or pushing down the length of his contract with WCW so that I can sign him would be off limits.

 

But what about you guys? I'm sure there will be plenty of debate over this, and I'm sure my ethics will be dragged through the dirt over what I just said. Can't wait!

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I think it's a good question, and one that can bother me on a lot of games, especially one with mods. It's like on football manager there are plenty of websites which tell you who the 'wonderkids' are based on stats found in the editor but not in game, things like that ruin the experience of scouting at least for me.

 

TEW is full of things like this and I guess everyone will have very different opinions. More so than in other games because the very nature of it means people play it for different reasons. If you want to play it as a tough simulation game then you can, if you want to have it as a complete sandbox mode where you can write any story then that's possible too, in reality I imagine most people are somewhere in between.

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I realise I have a different point of view from a lot of people because I'm part of the development team and some of the features that I feel people abuse are the ones that I've helped to make in the first place, and have gone exactly against the way I intended them to be used. That said, I've got a few opinions on the differences between exploits and cheating.

 

For me, cheating is pretty much any use of the editor to "correct" anything or to turn something in your favour. The game works the way it does and doing anything to change that just because you disagree with it is cheating to me. This is particularly true as it's very rare for humans to do anything to even try to balance it out for the AI, so it's a one way street that only serves to make things easier for the human user. I think most people would agree on that though, so it's not a biggie. Pre-edits to a dataset are an odd one... I don't play real world mods so most of the edits I'd see would be to the Cornellverse, which shouldn't be needed and would therefore be cheating. So many people disagree with real world mod numbers that some editting is probably essential, but only if you are trying to get a better balance rather than tipping things in your favour again. Otherwise, that would be cheating .:p

 

Exploits are lesser things, and I don't really care about people using them UNLESS it's a multiplayer game. In a multiplayer game, everyone should be playing with the same standards in mind. The "face off, no contact" angle is a horrible exploit when used over and over again. It's literally generating overness for people while completely ignoring their own actual talents... it's money for nothing, and if you just use it all the time you might as well just set someone's popularity in the editor to the leve you want it to be at since what you are doing is just the long way round of doing it. And obviously, as I consider the editor to be cheating, that's why I HATE that spamming of a particular angle so much. The odd one is okay, but if you have 6 people doing that twice per show? That's just cheating. Once every few weeks though? That's not so bad.

 

In single player games, fixing little human errors isn't something I have a problem with, but I'd avoid it if possible. Mistakes happen, but I'd rather deal with them as I would have to in real life. :)

 

Storyline success! Angles should balance out to be neutral, just as matches would. If someone wins, someone has to lose. If three people beat up one person, the major defeat for the person being beaten down would be balanced by 3 minor successes on the other side. And ultimately, through smart booking and the use of minor characters in particular, storylines can be successful for everyone but individual angles cannot. To have angles where everyone wins, is an exploit. And one I'd love to see have a block on so that if someone does it, then the segments would get an increasingly big penalty on them.

 

Match content risk... like many people, I used to create a match type that was default plus with the content risk up a little. Now if I need to, I make sure to make the match have added things like weapons and add some match danger too. ECW had higher content risk by default, but they also didn't have count outs or DQs, and did allow weapons a lot. So I make a match type that might hurt a bit more, but would also balance out. I consider it an exploit to not do that, but only a little one.

 

Godly user characters. Any time anyone creates a user character who is better than Tommy Cornell, that's an exploit. Someone who can't be fired, can't cause trouble and who will deliver awesome ratings for you that previously wasn't even part of the game world? Yeah... that's an exploit. I'd say it borders on cheating for me, since it's using the editor to give yourself a superstar you shouldn't have.

 

I'm sure there are a lot more things I think of as exploits but a lot of the old ones have been shut down as they were accidental in the first place and have now been neutralised. Generally speaking, as long as people are playing as things are intended rather than trying to find every loophole in the system, I'm happy. And when it comes to multiplayer games, as long as everyone is on the same page there too then everyone should be able to have fun. Which is the important thing after all.

 

Should be interesting to see what other people think about things. I know I'm on the harsher side of most arguments about this, but I'm also of the opinion that if you have to go looking for loopholes or exploits then you're kinda missing the game aspect of things. TEW10 had some problems that meant you almost had to use exploits at times... TEW13 has worked hard to change that so there shouldn't be any need for exploits as the AI and human players are closer in terms of how they work now. Humans have more advantages than the AI now in terms of being smart and creative, so hopefully everyone can get by without having to resort to exploits or cheating. :)

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If you can think of a legitimate reason why what you're doing makes sense then I see no problem with it.

 

I don't mess around with the editor in-game much but I've occasionally bumped up the stats of workers who have renders that I love but skills that I don't. It's not a common occurence and I'd place it squarely in the 'cheating' category but it doesn't break the game so it doesn't bother me too much.

 

In game stuff is all fair to me. Write your own angles and judge workers on their strengths. Write new gimmicks that favour your workers. All of that stuff is available to you for a reason and as far as I'm concerned you'd be a fool not to use it.

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I have no line in the sand for this question. It's my game and if I want to make changes in any part of it, I will. I don't see cheating as being a problem in any game. If you can do it within the limits of the game itself, do it. Outside of that, like manipulating the environment in a shooter or something, definitely cheating.

 

If Adam wanted to stop this at any time he could just take out the editor. However, as the editor is available in game, making changes in it is not cheating to me.

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It's a fun topic and particularly interesting to see a member of the development team's assessment. One of the things I like most about the TEW series is how there's a range of ways to play it. Ultimately, I think it's a personal choice and if you're enjoying the game, you're playing it "the right way."

 

In my case:

 

- Adjusting a worker's stats because I disagree with the mod maker's assessment: Yes, fine, within reason.

 

- Giving workers Success in an angle without balancing it out with a corresponding Defeat for someone else in the angle: No, too exploitative.

 

- Giving workers Unrated roles in angles like "Face Off, But No Contact": No, too exploitative, even if there is an element of realism. I won't do it unless the angle's under 4 minutes.

 

- Rerunning a show to fix a mistake that realistically would have been caught ("Sam Sparrow's rock concert? But I meant to click Sammy Bach!"): Yes, fine.

 

- Rerunning a show to fix an error in judgment ("That Keep Strong road agent note tanked my main event... let's say I'd used Open Match instead?): No, cheating.

 

- Starting a day over because I disagree with how the AI booked my development territory: Yes, fine, since I feel we should have more control over development territories. However, I won't do this if starting the day over would undo a major event in the game world or take away a great show from one of my rivals.

 

- Starting a day over to generate different Owner Goals than the ones I was just given: Yes, fine, unless it's a Road To Glory challenge or Multiplayer game.

 

- Using more than 3 workers in an angle: I go back and forth on this because in principle I don't think we should be able to do what the AI can't but at the same time it's hard to book realistically without one tag team confronting another, etc.

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You all bring up great points. I do agree with the "it's my game" approach though I'd feel dirty if I abused something without a legit reason behind it. In the end though, I play the game to have fun. That ought to be forefront in my mind when making said decision.

 

Derek, I agree that in Cornellverse, it would be a bit more black and white. Adam and the development team worked on it meticulously so what you see is what you get. Real world modders however, make mistakes or get careless.

 

Molly Holly in my mod (captcharisma) has a 40 in sex appeal. Now, I'm not a huge Molly fan, but she is FAR from a 40% in sex appeal and this alone hinders what I can do with her because she'd tank all my sex appeal based matches (almost exclusively the kinds of matches I use for divas). For a frame of reference, Amazing Kong is in the upper seventies. That, I call a modder mistake and it was corrected.

 

Storyline success I don't abuse, because I agree with Dereks view on things. This doesn't mean I won't try to give everyone as many success as possible, but I won't manipulate anything.

 

I disagree with the godly user though. I think that falls under "it's my game."

 

Since EWR, I've created an in game version of myself that over the years (over several versions of the game) rose to become a main eventer. I shouldn't be prevented from creating him when in my imagination, this character exists and has a history. He's not god either, just a beefed up version of my own athletic abilities.

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To me, it's simple and applies to all games in general.

 

Cheating, on a personal level, is doing something that, later on, makes you feel bad for doing it. This same question was posed on the Skyrim Nexus forums some time ago. If using a house mod lessens your enjoyment of the game (when it's intended to increase said enjoyment), then it's cheating.

 

Exploits are a whole other thing. I've been gaming for many years and I've seen people jump on the 'that's an exploit' bandwagon hundreds of times. Anything that the players do that the developer didn't specifically plan for, some people will call an exploit. Wrong because no developer is as ingenious as their user base can be. No developer can plan for every possible way a feature can or will be used. If a developer calls something an exploit and does nothing to fix or change it (as an example, feign death pulling in EverQuest 12 years ago), it's not an exploit, it's a feature. As in the example, over the years, the EQ development team has added skills and functionality specifically in support of feign death pulling, which was called an exploit back in 2000. Heck, now every class has a means of doing it whereas back then it was only monks (necromancers and shadowknights' feign death was a spell and thus unreliable). So to me, exploits can only be defined as such by the developer(s). Nowadays though, developers don't do that, instead choosing to fix the exploit and either not mention it in patch notes or make an ambiguous reference to it (which can only be understood or recognized by people who knew about the exploit).

 

Bottom line is, cheating in a single player game is a personal determination. If running to the editor makes the game more fun for you (which could be the case with 'fantasy booker' style games), more power to you. But it's wrong when the game isn't single player unless the other player(s) agree with the tactics being used. But if four people want to play a multiplayer game where the editor is allowed, that's all well and dandy. Heck, I've been known to go to the editor and break a worker's caps (i.e. increase their ceiling, post destiny roll) if I don't agree with how it's turned out. I don't believe Britani Knight would lose any and all ability to improve...at age 22 ("...all are skills we can improve slightly"), so I change it.

 

EDIT:

I disagree with the godly user though. I think that falls under "it's my game."

 

Yeah, for sure. My user character can't work in-ring (obviously) so having him as an interviewer/color commentator/emergency road agent is basically the best I can do with him.

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I consider cheating if you have to go into the edit database. I always conflict this with myself. I love to build up a promotion but never want to wait the years and years it takes to do anything. I get impatient after like 3 shows and move us up.

 

 

 

 

I think anything you do that isnt editing is fine. I alsi think editing a guy to your view on his skills(like I view Drew McIntyre or Champagne lover much higher than their skills are in the game or the mod so I upgrade them) I also max out my character so I can help boost the crap guys in my promotions.

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="soxfan93" data-cite="soxfan93" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="35807" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Simply put, I view cheating as anything that gives you an unintended advantage: "Godly users;" editing the database; etc. I've never even used a cheat code in TEW because it defeats the purpose of the game.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> In a game like TEW, purpose is subjective though. Is your purpose to get the best grades possible or to tell a story that you want to tell without concern for grades? It's all a matter of opinion</p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="35807" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>In a game like TEW, purpose is subjective though. Is your purpose to get the best grades possible or to tell a story that you want to tell without concern for grades? It's all a matter of opinion</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Fair enough. To me, the game is about building new superstars and interesting stories while trying to become (or stay) the number one company in the world. You can do that without "cheating."</p>
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<p>All of you have made very very good points.</p><p> </p><p>

As to myself i never go back to the editor to correct any mistake doing a show. If i screw and i have trust me on this im oh well live and learn.</p><p> </p><p>

I never also touch the editor to change up a persons stats unless the creator of mod states in forums he made a mistake with a worker.</p><p> </p><p>

Ok well um i lied on last 1 i gave myself god stats so i could rule the 09000vs:)<img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p>

As for how i play the game it ranges from hard to sandbox just depends on how i feel. I do love to turn off national battles though as i love to see a region with more then 1 national size company.</p>

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generally I don't edit in TEW and do so more in WMMA, but I'm really only comfortable changing things I do not agree with in a character, especially in real world mods. I don't play them in TEW but I know in WMMA, almost everyone is the same, so those I hire I set their skills to be more based on their own, not just on being average
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<p>I think in broader terms, doing anything outside normal gameplay to give yourself an advantage or another company a disadvantage is cheating.</p><p> </p><p>

However as TEW is a game that can be played in many ways i think more specifically, cheating is going outside the normal gameplay to achieve your desired goal. If your goal is just to sandbox a game and you give yourself a bunch of money, it is what it is. But if your goal is to go from local to global and you edit in more money or popularity it's cheating.</p><p> </p><p>

I somewhat disagree with DerekB on pregame editing. once again I think it depends on your goal. if your goal is to conquer the cornellverse you should leave it as is, but if you are trying to create a scenario I see nothing cheating about changing the game world.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mitsukaikira" data-cite="mitsukaikira" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="35807" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I have no line in the sand for this question. It's my game and if I want to make changes in any part of it, I will. I don't see cheating as being a problem in any game. If you can do it within the limits of the game itself, do it. Outside of that, like manipulating the environment in a shooter or something, definitely cheating.<p> </p><p> If Adam wanted to stop this at any time he could just take out the editor. However, as the editor is available in game, making changes in it is not cheating to me.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is my feelings as well. That being said I never mess with stats. I just do not see the point of it. Other than that I play a sandbox game for the most part. </p><p> </p><p> Different people get enjoyment out of the game by playing it different ways. There is no right way or wrong way of playing it.</p>
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<p>As for not messing with the stats...it depends in what sense. For the purpose of telling a story, no reason why not.</p><p> </p><p>

Say you want to have Jennifer Cornell as a user character, opening her own promotion. If the story calls for her and Tommy to divorce, then she should get half the money. Incidentally, I tested this and at National, halving TCW's money makes little difference, as they more than make up for the loss. You then also have the issue of wanting to use J. Cornell on-screen. Just because she never appeared on-screen in TCW doesn't mean she doesn't know what to do (though the stats would say so).</p><p> </p><p>

Also, nothing wrong with changing "Out of the Business" status on someone, like useful members of the BSC roster.</p>

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<p>It's the pornography definition. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. I'm strict with myself, I don't edit anything in game(beyond stupid innocent mistakes by my boneheaded ass) I don't overuse workers, I don't have 60min t-shirt shooting angles that do A* and thus get me big grades. </p><p> </p><p>

I don't have guys wrestle more than once a show. I don't use angles that get me great grades unless I can come up with a justifiable storyline reason. I don't use squash matches unless it makes sense(IE grooming for big feud within a reasonable length of time IE next month not next year) I don't spam Sam Strong 10 times a show to boost every workers mic skills for when he inevitably retires... that kinda stuff. </p><p> </p><p>

the rule is, if it feels shady when I think of it, it shall not be done.</p>

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Guest deathcroc

<p>For me - there is no "cheating" in TEW. I make the world what I want it to be, and have the stories I want to see unfold.</p><p> </p><p>

I play only to entertain myself. I want to have fun, and not overthink things. I don't do diary games and I don't do multiplayer. No one is being harmed or shortchanged, since it is just me. No "end game" goals, just going through this world scripting the shows I want to see and trying things out and having fun living in the world that is created through the game.</p><p> </p><p>

If I want my user character to be overpowered, so be it. If I want to start with 50 million dollars, so be it. If I want to use the "Sophie" cheat, I will. I normally play in a "realistic" fashion - but I don't feel I have to force myself to do so.</p><p> </p><p>

I've been a fan of TEW (& EWR) for a long time because I can get that sandbox mode I love. I get very little time to game these days, so TEW makes a great "got 1/2 to play right now" game for me.</p>

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<p>I agree with most fo you it's only cheating if you feel it is.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

For example in my game I ended up with Pee Wee Germaine as an owner. I hated it but instead of restarting the game and picking my owner, I decided to go into the game up his popularity, mic skills and charisma. A quick change in picture and now i have my authority figure. It is cheating sure, but It is my game and if it makes me enjoy the game a little more and get a longer play out of it then why not.</p>

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<p>This is sort of what I was trying to get at when I posted the "house rules" thread a few months ago. For me it depends on the type of game I'm playing. The way I tend to play, I consider strarting as the Owner as Sandbox Mode and starting as Head Booker as "Playing TEW" more seriously.</p><p> </p><p>

If I'm playing as the Head Booker, I consider it cheating to alter the product to allow for certain workers to join the company that wouldn't under normal circumstances, or to stray from the type of workers that the company tends to hire, or turn off repetitive booking penalties, morale, momentum or owner goals. If Champagne Lover wants to be the Sting of my universe and never sign with SWF because they are too risque, then so be it. It's the owner's company, you're just an employee and need to live up to the mission of that company, even if it is just a continuation of the previous booker. I don't edit workers, I just go with the flow of the events in the game. </p><p> </p><p>

But if I'm the owner, pretty much anything goes. I can even rationalize allowing repeat bookings because "that's the way the fed is" in that type of game world.</p>

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<p>I'm having this kind of internal struggle in a WWF game as I don't feel right signing talent way before they should be working for me.</p><p> </p><p>

For example, I recently signed The Undertaker in 1987 so he can go into developmental and improve and I feel horrible for it since I know he'll be debuting early. On the same coin I haven't hired scott hall or dingo warrior because I don't want them debuting too early and they already have not much to learn from developmental.</p>

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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Captain2" data-cite="Captain2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="35807" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm having this kind of internal struggle in a WWF game as I don't feel right signing talent way before they should be working for me.<p> </p><p> For example, I recently signed The Undertaker in 1987 so he can go into developmental and improve and I feel horrible for it since I know he'll be debuting early. On the same coin I haven't hired scott hall or dingo warrior because I don't want them debuting too early and they already have not much to learn from developmental.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> <offtopic> And that is exactly why I have such a hard time playing RL mods. </offtopic></p>
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<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Captain2" data-cite="Captain2" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="35807" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm having this kind of internal struggle in a WWF game as I don't feel right signing talent way before they should be working for me.<p> </p><p> For example, I recently signed The Undertaker in 1987 so he can go into developmental and improve and I feel horrible for it since I know he'll be debuting early. On the same coin I haven't hired scott hall or dingo warrior because I don't want them debuting too early and they already have not much to learn from developmental.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is why I have gone away form Real World mods. Too much history in my head. </p><p> </p><p> Nothing says you can't bring in those guys early. Have him come in and fued with the likes of Andre or Savage. Have the Million Dollar Man bring ihm in before the tournament at WrestleMania IV. Have him fight someone and get Dq'd or counted out in the opening round. Come SummerSlam have him team with Andre or DiBiase for the tag match. Then after that he can replace Andre as the monster that everyone fears. Do it right and you can avoid having to bring in Zeus come SummerSlam 89.</p>
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