Japan Cverse - Constant vs. Touring

[Hawk1665]

<p>Not to necro a thread but I ran a quick and dirty test. I ran a few tour shows, did around 400 paid. Ran an event and did around 3,200 paid. Lost a couple hundred versus gained around 30,000.</p><p> </p><p>

That's a massive, massive difference. And if you can't gain pop from tour shows very much I really don't see the point of them.</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hawk1665" data-cite="Hawk1665" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Not to necro a thread but I ran a quick and dirty test. I ran a few tour shows, did around 400 paid. Ran an event and did around 3,200 paid. Lost a couple hundred versus gained around 30,000.<p> </p><p> That's a massive, massive difference. And if you can't gain pop from tour shows very much I really don't see the point of them.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> From the little, I've poked around the J-A-P... Tour shows are about working the young lions and getting them consistent dates without having to weigh down your events. Basically a glorified spammable B-Show. Which is actually nice because most tour events are for hardcores and diehards. And the Events are the blow-away shows. The advantage is skill development, and the trade-off is fatigue. But I defer to the Japanese players, because I usually don't play in that region.</p>

[psx]

"Not to necro a thread" pt. 2

 

I did the experiment of doing touring vs. constant, I did constant first. I set it up as a two year sim, with me checking out the results 2 years in, I was gonna do a normal sim to compare but after seeing the results 2 years in, I don't think I need one.

 

Anyways, here are my findings of an constant schedule for all japanese companies. The year is 2022, after the new change of schedule of doing big event constantly undertaken by every japanese promotion has changed the landscape dramatically. Like an catapillar blooming anew into an butterfly and being set on fire, the japanese wrestling scene saw a dramatic re-change. Schedules amped up, matches were booked left and right, title defenses quickly went from double and even triple digits. Everyone quickly rose up to new highs that even the most believing would be suprised by. It's damn near uptopia for people running this kabal. For the rest.... well.

 

Let's talk economy first, all of the 8 promotions are now multi million companies with BHOTWG having the biggest money pool of them all at 227mil. Bigger then the reverie backed USPW, the others aren't anything to scoff at with PGHW at 73m and 5SSW at 64m. The companies are swimming in the fountain of avarice and greed, as they have so called hit the jackpot. Even SAISHO who was in the red for 5 months in 2020 has been able to over come that and become Big by stick to a strict schedule of constant events. The biggest beneficaries of this is of course 5SSW, after having an all reaching grasp on the japanese joshi scene they were able to dominate it with no other competitor. Even the promotions from the US who could techically sign stars like Etsuko Arihyoshi and Fuyuka Higa are scared to sign them. Even if all of their stars are at a handshake, such is the dystopian future of Japanese Wrestling.

 

The events themself are seen as rockstar events, with fully packed houses ranges for 74K for BHOTWG in Tokyo ot 30k for BHOTWG in Matsuyama. The smallest of all companies WLW has crowds of 43k as their biggest draw and 19k as their smallest draw. The range are similar and between those two, they seemingly can't draw an un-sizable crowd due to all of their bi/tri/quad-weekly events having marquee matches and title defends every night. Their tickets sale is nothing to scuff at, however nobody has been able to draw good PPV numbers with BHOTWG drawing only 0.36 to their recent events. The rest are at Shogun-TV, with PGHW having some hindsight and staying with J-Remote. You think the companies would at least change PPV or Broadcasting partners but I'm assuming an small sized TV network is good enough if everyone else just comes to your show.

 

So with this attention and money coming in, you think the wrestlers would be fed like kings? Maybe so, looking into it you can see most of the wrestlers are being only given an handshake deal. Masa Kurata (ranked 19 in the power 500) gets 3530 per appearance, he had 16 matches in december bringing himself a 56480 home for december. With the rank 1 going to Megumi Nakajima who is only getting an 24540 for december. Really the big thing is that the contracts have seemingly stayed in a very different 2020, you get an written if you are a part of BHOTWG or jumped over or got signed after 2020. (an example is KC Glenn and Emerald Angel who both get a 120k every month from EX2010) An cruel twist of fate for alot of the loyal wrestlers to not gain an pot of gold from the fountain the companies are drinking from.

 

 

 

None of this has been able to cross over to other countries, with BHOTWG not being able to crack the language barrier. Even with an 93 over all japan, this has no effect on most of the world with signing them for their ppv or event broadcasts. However USPW having a natural international broadcast center, they have been able to sit themself as a second even with their event drawing power just being the same for PPVs. The Japanese wrestling has been an incircular money pit, with no attempts to widening themself on tv, streams, or ppv, they keep drawing droves and droves of people. Some people might wonder if this bubble will crash, or if they are too big to fail now.

 

I don't think I've learned anything from this experiment really, I think everyone knew how overpowered this is and this just shows it even more gross details. It is an abuse of a system which has no clue how to deal with it. It might be fun to run an save with everyone on an constant schedule, that would be in a different thread. I'm just in honest shock how stupid this got.

 

2022 stats:

BHOTWG - 227404721 - 95 POP

5SSW - 64458566 - 89-87 POP

EX2010 - 57051227 - 85-83 POP

PGHW - 73914142 - 78 POP

SAISHO - 32174677 - 78-76 POP

WLW - 49629748 - 77-76 POP

BCG - 33190980 - 72-70 POP

[Nightshadeex]

Constant schedules allow the AI to grow promotions like weeds. I played around with them for a few tests and as long as they didn't go out of business early, they became rich quickly.

[Hawk1665]

Tour shows definitely need some type of boost. Maybe still apply the not gaining pop rules but up the attendances so the player has some type of incentive to still use them. Going from 3,200 to 400 attendance depending on the show type is just stupid.

 

If you wanted to simulate touring you could just do constant but limit yourself to smaller venues so you get attendance more realistic to your size.

 

As it is, it's just gimping yourself to play within the game's broken system. There's no reason to play touring as it is right now.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think there should just be less incentive to use constant. I would be for heavily increasing injuries and wear and tear for Japanese products. Promotions having 100+ normal level shows is only going to make them millions of dollars with really no downside. Nothing you do to boost tour shows can beat that.

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="48917" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think there should just be less incentive to use constant. I would be for heavily increasing injuries and wear and tear for Japanese products. Promotions having 100+ normal level shows is only going to make them millions of dollars with really no downside. Nothing you do to boost tour shows can beat that.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> There needs to be a diminishing returns over-saturation system that heavily reduces income and negatively effects pop after you break 2 or so events a month, you should also have a dramatic increase in wear and tear.</p>

[IWGP_Fan]

There needs to be a diminishing returns over-saturation system that heavily reduces income and negatively effects pop after you break 2 or so events a month, you should also have a dramatic increase in wear and tear.

 

There is a diminishing returns, what nobody here is posting is how this effects viewership, it absolutely tanks it.

[Teh_Showtime]

There is a diminishing returns, what nobody here is posting is how this effects viewership, it absolutely tanks it.

 

Viewership is merely a number though. It doesn’t tank 20,000 tickets being sold multiple times per week. Why use touring shows at all if I can sell out Budokan 20 times in a single month?

[Dalton]

Viewership is merely a number though. It doesn’t tank 20,000 tickets being sold multiple times per week. Why use touring shows at all if I can sell out Budokan 20 times in a single month?

 

Bingo. The only reason anyone should be using touring is to keep a sense of realism and immersion.

[IWGP_Fan]

Bingo. The only reason anyone should be using touring is to keep a sense of realism and immersion.

 

Or the actual reason it exists, to allow you to mix in Young Lion's while being able to disregard the penalties of doing so.

 

Obviously being able to spam normal events is a problem but it would exist in any promotion in the game, that's not unique to Japan.

 

What is unique to Japan is in large is tours and they are currently under delivering if anything in terms of promotion popularity gains but we also have to accept that isn't there function.

 

We have two separate issues here at two ends of the spectrum.

[Capelli King]

I like the touring system in the game, the problem is the "constant events". I think there has to be a cap on the profits made on running loads of events.

 

Now if we are not comparing profits, tours have an advantage (in comparison to regular types of schedules) because they can develop talent faster (skill wise). There is no massive pressure to have great shows, so lower talent can improve at their own pace. Also most touring companies make steady (if unspectacular) profits. Little risk of going bankrupt (at least that is what i have noticed so far).

[psx]

<p>Heyhey! Your favorite necroposter has come back, after a while I thought my numbers seemed weird and I should re-try a sim. It was gonna take like two hours and I wonder who has the patience for that.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

Anyways, after simming for another two hours, the findings are pretty much the same, BHOTWG snowballs, 5SSW gets a monopoly, the tiny indies who are now medium or big thinks that it is okay to share people on handshake deals. SUKI is god, everything we knew from the start. </p><p> </p><p>

It's nice to at least there is some variance in power 500. Rank #1 in my first sim Megumi Nakajima is #31 in my second sim, Rank #1 in my second sim Matthew Keith is rank #18. First sim BHOTWG champ Gunkuro Kamioka is rank 7, in my second sim he is 193 after a nasty injury. Hinote did a swan leap in my first sim to become big, in my second sim they are just medium.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

Someone in the discord and this thread asked what would happen if you did constant but only lesser, so I gave it the obvious lead in both sims BHOTWG. And in 2 years they did.... nothing. They had stalled in popularity (71 all over) and seemed to be relaxing as a medium company as the rest flew right by them. "That can't be right, they got stars, showstoppers, other words to mean really good wrestlers." Correct, "They got Hiroaki Nakasawa." He has only wrestled one match in the time from Jan 2020 to Jan 2022. "NANI? (Nani means What.), what about Matthew Keith?" Wrestled until May 2020, he stopped wrestling. "Kinnojo Horri?" Never stepped a foot in the ring. "KC Glenn?" wrestled Jan to Aug 2020 and then came back for two matches in Sep 2021.</p><p> </p><p>

"Then, who is their best wrestler in the power 500?" Tatsuya Toshiyura. "Wh-" Chaos Khan is a main eventer with a hot streak owning the Japan belt. I'll stop with the voices in my head and continue, they have basically stalled for 2 years with 23k sitting in Kanagawa Stadium to watch the main event of Chaos Khan defeat Atsumori Takemura for the BHOTWG Japan title. It gets a PPV buyrate of 0.11. The event before that saw a crowd of 25k in Okayama see the main event of BHOTWG Legend Marihito Masuko returning to the ring after a year absense against Panda Mask II, it gets a 66 with Panda Mask carrying it.</p><p> </p><p>

In the stalling of BHOTWG, EX2010 and 5SSW blew up the ranks. EX2010 was able to keep most of their stars (except for few who now wait for a moment that never comes in BHOTWG) which made them the biggest male promotion in Japan. 5SSW has no competition and was able just to roflcopter to the top. The power 500 seems a weird future where BHOTWG never existed as EX2010, PGHW and 5SSW stars are at the same level as the rest of the world's stars.</p><p> </p><p>

But they never get to crack the shell of Japan, even in the apparently stalling of the biggest promotion in Japan. Nobody seems like they want to take a risk and try to go outside of Japan, or even go to the big networks, once again Shogun TV is the place to catch their marquee event, being performed 4 times a week. 50k people stream into the events of EX2010, 5SSW, PGHW and SAISHO, or the sleepy few who can get the range for Shogun TV most likely see a 24 coverage of almost everyone but BHOTWG and PGHW (who has stuck it being on a secondary channel for a tv show that seemingly never airs and on a PPV website that gets described as small).</p><p> </p><p>

BHOTWG seemingly seems okay with peddling midcarders to a crowd who will never leave or become bigger, they keeps their best talent signed to contracts that will see them sit at home for 58k a month (Horri). The future seems bleak for BHOTWG for a non-fan, for a fan, it seems the dull grey it always had. Wrestling in Japan after a revolutionary idea as it will, stays a sleeping giant. One who only wants it's own market, and none other.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>

TLDR: Nerf SUKI. Seriously getting number 2 on a power 500 in a row in two different simulations?</p>

[IWGP_Fan]

I'm still seeing people post about touring as if it's the problem, I don't think they understand people are actually changing the "touring" events to "normal" events" to spam PPV's for profit.

 

The touring aspect is not the issue, you can do this with any promotion in the world, just do back-2-back events, the only reason people have noticed with touring promotions is because they already had a lot of closely packed events that have been manually switched by players to "normal" in order to test and or spam for profits.

 

This isn't a touring company specific issue.

 

The problem with touring is actually that people can't seem to find a reason to use it when they could otherwise be abusing normal events, because they are ignoring the need for Japanese promotion's to develop Young Lion's in a different way to western promotion's develop young talents.

 

If you come to this thread posting sentiments such as "wow the touring system sure is broken, nerf it" you have missed the point because that isn't what's going on here at all.

 

The touring system could use a minor boost to company popularity gains and the game in general needs a stricter penalty for running back to back "normal" show's, the touring system itself is in general working as intended, players in large are the issue.

[Nachtfalter]

The touring system could use a minor boost to company popularity gains and the game in general needs a stricter penalty for running back to back "normal" show's, the touring system itself is in general working as intended, players in large are the issue.

 

The touring system doesn't work for AI-controlled companies either because touring contracts (and hiring rules making use of them) have inexplicably completely disappeared from the game and the AI seems to book touring shows pretty much exactly like normal events.

 

I'm far from an expert on real world puroresu, but it seems to me that the touring system is, if not utterly broken, implemented far worse in TEW 2020 than it was in TEW 2016.

 

Then again, excursions are certainly a huge improvement.

It's like so many aspects of this game compared to it's predecessor. One step foward, another one back...

[Teh_Showtime]

I'm still seeing people post about touring as if it's the problem, I don't think they understand people are actually changing the "touring" events to "normal" events" to spam PPV's for profit.

 

The touring aspect is not the issue, you can do this with any promotion in the world, just do back-2-back events, the only reason people have noticed with touring promotions is because they already had a lot of closely packed events that have been manually switched by players to "normal" in order to test and or spam for profits.

 

This isn't a touring company specific issue.

 

The problem with touring is actually that people can't seem to find a reason to use it when they could otherwise be abusing normal events, because they are ignoring the need for Japanese promotion's to develop Young Lion's in a different way to western promotion's develop young talents.

 

If you come to this thread posting sentiments such as "wow the touring system sure is broken, nerf it" you have missed the point because that isn't what's going on here at all.

 

The touring system could use a minor boost to company popularity gains and the game in general needs a stricter penalty for running back to back "normal" show's, the touring system itself is in general working as intended, players in large are the issue.

 

What does a touring system do for young workers that you can’t do running normal events? Even if you have them facing each other in singles, the grade is so minuscule as it relates to show grade that nothing is really changing there. Players aren’t the issue, the system is inherently imbalanced and telling people not to use it doesn’t solve the issue.

[Hawk1665]

There needs to be a *reason* to use touring events. Higher worker stat gains, significantly lower injury rates, normal event spam gets penalties, high pop gain in lesser known areas, etc, etc. As it is there is no reason whatsoever to use touring other then "realism" that you can easily get by just using smaller events in smaller venues.

 

If you use touring you don't make money and you don't gain popularity. They're shows that do absolutely nothing for you as a promotion and are essentially just shows for the sake of doing shows. They are pointless shows that if they didn't exist would do nothing for or against you. The only reason you might gain pop is televised tour shows but you can just as easily do televised regular shows and reap all the other benefits.

[MapRef41N93W]

There needs to be a *reason* to use touring events.

 

Definitely. It's worth thinking about why big Japanese companies tour in real life.

 

First of all, why do they run shows in different cities, rather than all just sticking to where they're based? Presumably to get in front of different fans, and so they don't burn out the audience in whatever their home market is.

 

Second, why do they traditionally run shows full of relatively insignificant tag-team matches? Presumably so that (a) the wrestlers can perserve their bodies, and (b) the company doesn't burn through important matches too quickly.

 

Those first two factors could probably be simulated in a game like this. You could have an attendance penalty for running too many shows in the same area too close together, and a significantly reduced injury rate for touring shows, as Hawk1665 suggested.

 

But that last one is tricky, and it gets at something fundamental about how the game works.

 

As far as I know, TEW2020 still has company popularity and show type as the main influence on attendance, with event significance and the presence of popular wrestlers on the card being secondary factors. I don't think what specific matches you book with ever makes a difference for how many fans show up. A match might get a lower rating if you've run it too many times, but that won't affect how many people buy tickets to see it.

 

So I don't see any way for the game to reward you for saving major matches the way big Japanese companies traditionally do, nor any way to penalize you for not doing so.

[MapRef41N93W]

While I'm at it: in my ideal version of a TEW-type game, the hierarchy of things that determine attendance would be very different.

 

Which specfic matches you book would be the biggest factor, with the presence of popular wrestlers being next (so booking popular wrestlers would help attendance even if they're not in big matches), and company popularity being third at most.

 

If I had my way, what "show type" you choose wouldn't affect attendance at all. Instead, it would affect how hard the wrestlers work (and, by extension, match ratings, fatigue, and injuries). Whether the show is major or minor in the eyes of the fans would be determined entirely by who's on the show and in what matches.