Why isn't blood a thing in TEW?

[The Dynamite Sid]

It's something I've wondered for a few years but never thought to ask. I'm sure it's been discussed here before so sorry for the repost if that is the case

 

Bleeding is such a big part of wrestling and there are certainly references to it in TEW I was always curious why you couldn't instruct your guys to "get colour" as part of match to try and pop a rating the same as with crazy/stunt bumps.

 

You could have a road agent note, have penalties with certain audiences who dislike blood, have a penalty for too much blood on a show, have a rule which bans blading in your company. You could even have guys go into business for themselves and blade, dishing out fines for doing so ala Ric Flair and Macho Man.

 

Then there's hardway cuts. Maybe someone accidentally gets cut during a match but the blood adds to the spectacle and really gets the crowds attention. Or maybe you're running a family friendly show and the sudden introduction of unplanned bleeding totally derails the match (I'm thinking Samoa Joe vs Finn Balor)

 

I feel like this stuff must have been discussed before and there's probably a reason it's never been included, just wondering what the deal is.

[Sco xY2Jx]

Keen to check out responses to this as I'm with you. It's nothing I've ever given much thought but when you statw it so logically and matter of factly it's odd that it isn't an inclusion in road agent notes etc.

[gazwefc83]

I could be wrong but I believe Adam had said that blood doesn't offer enough to a match grade to warrant having it in. Maybe somebody can clarify that I didnt just make this up in my head <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

[Historian]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="gazwefc83" data-cite="gazwefc83" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52252" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I could be wrong but I believe Adam had said that blood doesn't offer enough to a match grade to warrant having it in. Maybe somebody can clarify that I didnt just make this up in my head <img alt=":p" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/tongue.png.ceb643b2956793497cef30b0e944be28.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I vaguely remember him saying that. If I recall, he mentioned thinking about putting it in for 2020 but didn't think it would add enough to the game to be anything other than flavoring.</p><p> </p><p> For what it's worth, I've always just imagined blood in the matches where I thought there should be blood. I definitely see the value of having the option of 'get color in this' or an accidental hardway getting a USPW-like company in trouble with sponsors or something.</p>

[The Dynamite Sid]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Historian" data-cite="Historian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52252" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I vaguely remember him saying that. If I recall, he mentioned thinking about putting it in for 2020 but didn't think it would add enough to the game to be anything other than flavoring.<p> </p><p> For what it's worth, I've always just imagined blood in the matches where I thought there should be blood. I definitely see the value of having the option of 'get color in this' or an accidental hardway getting a USPW-like company in trouble with sponsors or something.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That logic makes sense for sure. I mean when I book a barbed wire match I assume it goes without saying that you're getting blood, hence match risk content and etc. </p><p> </p><p> I almost feel like including it would be weighted more to stuff like the example you give with penalties and stuff. I imagine that could be unpopular though and possibly a little messy to implement from a dev standpoint. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Maybe having a "juice freak" attribute could make sense for 2020. We all know some workers barely need an excuse to get the blade out, often using it as a crutch to cover the gaps in their work when they get older (I'm looking at you, Flair). It's not something I'd feel strongly enough about to put to Adam formally as a suggestion, just a thought</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Historian" data-cite="Historian" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52252" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I vaguely remember him saying that. If I recall, he mentioned thinking about putting it in for 2020 but didn't think it would add enough to the game to be anything other than flavoring.<p> </p><p> For what it's worth, I've always just imagined blood in the matches where I thought there should be blood. I definitely see the value of having the option of 'get color in this' or an accidental hardway getting a USPW-like company in trouble with sponsors or something.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Some of the most pivotal moments in the history of wrestling have come from blood. In one form or another, it really should be a thing, either as an act of sabotage and discipline(King of the Road) or an act of inspiration that takes an epic and adds something to it(Cody v. Dustin, Double or Nothing). Or as a moment of spontaneity that reinvents a person in one stupendous visual (Nia Jax's botched punch that gets 'The Man' over in a way it probably never does otherwise.) </p><p> </p><p> So I would be in favor of it. I understand wanting to not over glut notes, but this seems like the wrong hill to die on.</p>

[Adam Ryland]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="The Dynamite Sid" data-cite="The Dynamite Sid" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="52252" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's something I've wondered for a few years but never thought to ask. I'm sure it's been discussed here before so sorry for the repost if that is the case<p> </p><p> Bleeding is such a big part of wrestling and there are certainly references to it in TEW I was always curious why you couldn't instruct your guys to "get colour" as part of match to try and pop a rating the same as with crazy/stunt bumps.</p><p> </p><p> You could have a road agent note, have penalties with certain audiences who dislike blood, have a penalty for too much blood on a show, have a rule which bans blading in your company. You could even have guys go into business for themselves and blade, dishing out fines for doing so ala Ric Flair and Macho Man.</p><p> </p><p> Then there's hardway cuts. Maybe someone accidentally gets cut during a match but the blood adds to the spectacle and really gets the crowds attention. Or maybe you're running a family friendly show and the sudden introduction of unplanned bleeding totally derails the match (I'm thinking Samoa Joe vs Finn Balor) </p><p> </p><p> I feel like this stuff must have been discussed before and there's probably a reason it's never been included, just wondering what the deal is.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It's always been left out because it's very hard to counter the fact that it would become effectively a "free boost" - i.e. turning into a note that people use once every 2-3 months for a big match safe in the knowledge that they're going to get a bonus to pump up their rating.</p><p> </p><p> There's been several suggestions for how to counter it, but they all contain significant flaws. For example, giving it a small chance of the person accidentally bleeding bucketloads and it affecting their performance or the match isn't a good deterrent as that happens so rarely in reality that the frequency isn't going to be worth <em>not</em> risking it. Having a tolerance level for how often you can do it before the fans get bored of it doesn't work as people would soon figure out what the level is and never get penalised. Having it linked to product doesn't work as nobody is going to be silly enough to use it in an environment that explicitly penalises its use. Too much blood on one show doesn't work as a deterrent either, as again, it's easy to avoid that penalty. And so on.</p><p> </p><p> With that all in mind, the fairest solution is therefore to just assume that blood <em>is</em> happening and is factored into match ratings, as part of the worker's brawling, hardcore or psychology stats, it's just not something that is explicitly being noted.</p><p> </p><p> I hope that explains the thinking behind it.</p>

[d12345]

What if it worked similar to how scripted vs unscripted matches work? Where there are certain wrestlers who want to bleed in every big match regardless of what promotion they're in, and if you don't let them they get annoyed. If you let them the match gets a VERY small bonus.

 

It could be an attribute "bloodthirsty" or can be added as a knock on effect of having deathmatch attribute.

 

So obviously if you're running a PG Sports Ent product bleeding could turn off your fans (similar to how crazy bumps do), so you wont ever use the note. However when you book certain hardcore minded wrestlers in big matches in your promotion they ask you to add the 'get colour' note.

 

If you add it you get a small penalty to your match rating, but keep your Terry Funk/Jon Moxley-esque wrestlers satiated. If you don't add it the match rating doesn't get a penalty or anything, but your worker gets a small morale ding.

 

This would help simulate hardcore/deathmatch workers not being able to work in PG products for too many years, before needing to do some hardcore stuff.

 

This also gives another reason for players to not sign up workers that really don't match their sports entertainment product and pushing them too far.

[redhilleagle]

I think it could be worth a re-think for the future. Perhaps it would get a boost in certain situations. If the match was associated with a storyline, if both workers had a certain attribute, if the product was a certain type, if the overall match rating was going to hit XX rating, how hot the storyline is, how hot the crowd are, and only if all of those elements are aligned, the blood gives a small bonus, and even then, it's quite random as to how much. If none of those things are aligned, or very few are aligned, then you get a penalty.

Maybe not even a boost / penalty to the match, but to worker pop?

 

You could even get fined by networks if they don't like it (Maybe you could dictate the amount of blood? One worker, both workers, only slightly, a little more) and I like the idea of it possibly going wrong. You set the amount of blood to minimal (which your network is OK with), but something goes wrong and you end up with "a lot", and get fined / punished by the network.

 

I dunno, just throwing out ideas.

 

I understand it's a difficult balance between simulation and a challenging gaming experience, but it can be quite a major part of some products.

[St. Templar]

I'm a pretty strong proponent for adding any feature that makes the sim more realistic (and allowing us to turn it off to play the way we want to), but I have to side with Adam on that I don't think it's really a worthwhile addition.

 

I'm with the group where I figure that if I have a big blow-off match to a hot feud, and I have the Flair/Moxley type of worker in the ring, I just presume a bit of color was gotten. I also figure that if I'm running a family-friendly/sponsor-friendly product, it pretty much precludes blood in all but the rarest of matches, with only accidental "hardway" bleeding happening (although never once have I pictured a group of EMT/medical types going to ringside to treat bleeding in the middle of the match). I do see the addition and usage of it being very "gamey", which is generally not something I'm down with.

 

St.T

[djthefunkchris]

I think this come up years ago. In any case, I've always imagined it without thought for some reason.

 

I see a thread to blood, I can't help myself to look at it, so maybe something is there to be done at some point, but I honestly can't think of anything to counter what Adam said, as, I've been doing exactly what he said for years.

[Dolfanar]

What if it worked similar to how scripted vs unscripted matches work? Where there are certain wrestlers who want to bleed in every big match regardless of what promotion they're in, and if you don't let them they get annoyed. If you let them the match gets a VERY small bonus.

 

It could be an attribute "bloodthirsty" or can be added as a knock on effect of having deathmatch attribute.

 

So obviously if you're running a PG Sports Ent product bleeding could turn off your fans (similar to how crazy bumps do), so you wont ever use the note. However when you book certain hardcore minded wrestlers in big matches in your promotion they ask you to add the 'get colour' note.

 

If you add it you get a small penalty to your match rating, but keep your Terry Funk/Jon Moxley-esque wrestlers satiated. If you don't add it the match rating doesn't get a penalty or anything, but your worker gets a small morale ding.

 

This would help simulate hardcore/deathmatch workers not being able to work in PG products for too many years, before needing to do some hardcore stuff.

 

This also gives another reason for players to not sign up workers that really don't match their sports entertainment product and pushing them too far.

 

I like the idea of it being an attribute. Not sure what the effects would be, but it could impact some storylines/feuds and I think you are correct that it should be a negative for some products.

[The Dynamite Sid]

It's always been left out because it's very hard to counter the fact that it would become effectively a "free boost" - i.e. turning into a note that people use once every 2-3 months for a big match safe in the knowledge that they're going to get a bonus to pump up their rating.

 

There's been several suggestions for how to counter it, but they all contain significant flaws. For example, giving it a small chance of the person accidentally bleeding bucketloads and it affecting their performance or the match isn't a good deterrent as that happens so rarely in reality that the frequency isn't going to be worth not risking it. Having a tolerance level for how often you can do it before the fans get bored of it doesn't work as people would soon figure out what the level is and never get penalised. Having it linked to product doesn't work as nobody is going to be silly enough to use it in an environment that explicitly penalises its use. Too much blood on one show doesn't work as a deterrent either, as again, it's easy to avoid that penalty. And so on.

 

With that all in mind, the fairest solution is therefore to just assume that blood is happening and is factored into match ratings, as part of the worker's brawling, hardcore or psychology stats, it's just not something that is explicitly being noted.

 

I hope that explains the thinking behind it.

 

Yeah it makes sense absolutely. Like I say I knew it was something you must have considered before Adam I was just curious. Hard to argue that it's not something that would be very easily exploited by savvy players. Thanks for the response

[SirMichaelJordan]

It's always been left out because it's very hard to counter the fact that it would become effectively a "free boost" - i.e. turning into a note that people use once every 2-3 months for a big match safe in the knowledge that they're going to get a bonus to pump up their rating.

 

There's been several suggestions for how to counter it, but they all contain significant flaws. For example, giving it a small chance of the person accidentally bleeding bucketloads and it affecting their performance or the match isn't a good deterrent as that happens so rarely in reality that the frequency isn't going to be worth not risking it. Having a tolerance level for how often you can do it before the fans get bored of it doesn't work as people would soon figure out what the level is and never get penalised. Having it linked to product doesn't work as nobody is going to be silly enough to use it in an environment that explicitly penalises its use. Too much blood on one show doesn't work as a deterrent either, as again, it's easy to avoid that penalty. And so on.

 

With that all in mind, the fairest solution is therefore to just assume that blood is happening and is factored into match ratings, as part of the worker's brawling, hardcore or psychology stats, it's just not something that is explicitly being noted.

 

I hope that explains the thinking behind it.

 

Why not just treat it as a variation of crazy bump or stunt? Some guys would be ok with blading and others will not.

[Makhai]

Why not just treat it as a variation of crazy bump or stunt? Some guys would be ok with blading and others will not.

 

I think it would be a better idea to make it a random roll that can hurt or help the match, than treat it like another generic juice note. This would better simulate the chaotic nature of "adding color" you could also get networks upset for frequent abuse of the note, as well as the increased chance of injury and the like. I 100% understand that min-maxers can already abuse the note system to get wildly unrealistic grades, but I feel the answer is to make the notes non-guaranteed, instead of leaving an obvious immersion note out of the game.

[The Dynamite Sid]

Why not just treat it as a variation of crazy bump or stunt? Some guys would be ok with blading and others will not.

 

I think probably because of the risk/reward involved in the big bumps. A bump can result in an injury so you're always taking a calculated risk adding one in. Blading is highly unlikely to have any long lasting ill effects on your worker so the risk is greatly reduced.

 

Unless Adam is about to tackle the thorny issue of hepatitis in wrestling

[d12345]

I think probably because of the risk/reward involved in the big bumps. A bump can result in an injury so you're always taking a calculated risk adding one in. Blading is highly unlikely to have any long lasting ill effects on your worker so the risk is greatly reduced.

 

Unless Adam is about to tackle the thorny issue of hepatitis in wrestling

 

But isn't that the real positive around blading in a match vs taking a top rope piledriver? It's a way to add to a real match's overall "rating" with a low risk of long term major injury. (Abdullah's hepatitis not withstanding)

 

Especially if you're playing a 1960s or 70s mod. Getting busted open was the original crazy/stunt bump.

[SirMichaelJordan]

I think probably because of the risk/reward involved in the big bumps. A bump can result in an injury so you're always taking a calculated risk adding one in. Blading is highly unlikely to have any long lasting ill effects on your worker so the risk is greatly reduced.

 

Unless Adam is about to tackle the thorny issue of hepatitis in wrestling

 

Stunt bump decrease the chance of injury from a crazy bump. There are already things built in the game that would stop you from abusing it like aside from an injury. Network, worker not wanting to do it.

 

The idea that. Color doesn’t add anything to a match ignored Bret vs Austin and any other matches like it.

[The Dynamite Sid]

Stunt bump decrease the chance of injury from a crazy bump. There are already things built in the game that would stop you from abusing it like aside from an injury. Network, worker not wanting to do it.

 

The idea that. Color doesn’t add anything to a match ignored Bret vs Austin and any other matches like it.

 

That match was so good because of the psychology of both men and Bret suggesting that well placed bleeding would add to the drama. That's the psychology stat. That match is not a classic because a booker or road agent took them aside and demanded one of them bleed

[St. Templar]

That match was so good because of the psychology of both men and Bret suggesting that well placed bleeding would add to the drama. That's the psychology stat. That match is not a classic because a booker or road agent took them aside and demanded one of them bleed

 

This is exactly right. And it's further proof that a "blood" match note isn't really necessary at all, just imagination.

 

St.T

[NowThenMates]

I think it should be an agent note, as someone mentioned, the worker can defintely say no. Maybe have two options similar to crazy and stunt bump? And I think it would add to botches, for a company that is against blood would receive a grade penalty due to it or something? But it can also add drama to certain matches?

 

I think it's a hard thing to balance but would be a great feature and add to companies products.

[d12345]

That match was so good because of the psychology of both men and Bret suggesting that well placed bleeding would add to the drama. That's the psychology stat. That match is not a classic because a booker or road agent took them aside and demanded one of them bleed

 

I think from a sim standpoint, blood is something that is decided during the construction of a match with your road agent. Hence why it should be a note.

 

The road agent says, ok you're going to go head first into the turnbuckle 5 minutes in. Roll out of the ring and then blade while your opponent is hamming it up with the audience.

 

What it adds can be debated, but it is a road agent note if we're talking sim functionality.

[Scott Zodiac]

There could be a 'get colour/color' road agent note that is either a success or failure depending on a worker's hardcore rating. It could add or detract from the match rating based on this success/fail, audience product expectation, and broadcaster appetite.

 

There could also be a hard way percentage chance to some match-types which could inadvertently cause a match rating increase/decrease and/or a worker relationship change ie they may not like being made to bleed. This could be amplified for workers with the 'anti-hardcore' attribute.

 

I understand Adam's comment about the free boost. Every calculation in the game is always a percentage pass/fail to add or detract. If it is just to boost the match, then it is a free boost every now and again. However, I believe that it is used like this in real companies to try and add something to the match. So long as it is not overused, it can add something to a match or feud. You just have to find that sweet-spot depending on your audience.

[Makhai]

I think from a sim standpoint, blood is something that is decided during the construction of a match with your road agent. Hence why it should be a note.

 

The road agent says, ok you're going to go head first into the turnbuckle 5 minutes in. Roll out of the ring and then blade while your opponent is hamming it up with the audience.

 

What it adds can be debated, but it is a road agent note if we're talking sim functionality.

 

In Dustin's book, he directly says that Mike Graham told them to juice for King of the Road, for example. It 100% should be an agent note, and there should be an attribute called "Juicer" that makes it possible for them to do it, even when it's banned or against the network risk level.

[SirMichaelJordan]

That match was so good because of the psychology of both men and Bret suggesting that well placed bleeding would add to the drama. That's the psychology stat. That match is not a classic because a booker or road agent took them aside and demanded one of them bleed

 

In this logic, stunts and bumps some be handled under that psychology stat.

 

Adding color to a match doesn’t have anything to do with psychology as we see with some modern wrestling who just does it for the pop...