Mod Making Question

[ToxicTurtleyTop]

So I'm working on a small project and was wondering if these are fare stats for a 2018 Jon Moxley.

[Stennick]

I think you're a Moxley fan haha. I don't have too big of an issue with some of these but some of these are pretty high IMO. Moxley a 95 in charisma? This is like Hulk Hogan level charisma. I like Mox but I think thats a solid 10-15 points too high. Stamina at 95 is pretty high as well. Again I'd be hovering in the 80's somewhere with that.  95 in selling is like Flair/Mr. Perfect levels of selling. I'd say he's an 80 ins basics. The attributes I don't agree with are easily marketable. Improv training I'm not sure if he's some master improv guy or anything. Is he really a talent spotter more so than anyone else? 

At the end of the day its your mod and stats are subjective in my opinion. But if I was making a mod from that time period those are the off hand changes I'd make. Maybe I'm the odd man out and everyone else aligns with your stats. Just one mans opinion good luck with your mod  

[ToxicTurtleyTop]

8 minutes ago, Stennick said:

I think you're a Moxley fan haha. I don't have too big of an issue with some of these but some of these are pretty high IMO. Moxley a 95 in charisma? This is like Hulk Hogan level charisma. I like Mox but I think thats a solid 10-15 points too high. Stamina at 95 is pretty high as well. Again I'd be hovering in the 80's somewhere with that.  95 in selling is like Flair/Mr. Perfect levels of selling. I'd say he's an 80 ins basics. The attributes I don't agree with are easily marketable. Improv training I'm not sure if he's some master improv guy or anything. Is he really a talent spotter more so than anyone else? 

At the end of the day its your mod and stats are subjective in my opinion. But if I was making a mod from that time period those are the off hand changes I'd make. Maybe I'm the odd man out and everyone else aligns with your stats. Just one mans opinion good luck with your mod  

Thanks man I downed him to 80s

[alpha2117]

1 hour ago, Stennick said:

I think you're a Moxley fan haha. I don't have too big of an issue with some of these but some of these are pretty high IMO. Moxley a 95 in charisma? This is like Hulk Hogan level charisma. I like Mox but I think thats a solid 10-15 points too high. Stamina at 95 is pretty high as well. Again I'd be hovering in the 80's somewhere with that.  95 in selling is like Flair/Mr. Perfect levels of selling. I'd say he's an 80 ins basics. The attributes I don't agree with are easily marketable. Improv training I'm not sure if he's some master improv guy or anything. Is he really a talent spotter more so than anyone else? 

At the end of the day its your mod and stats are subjective in my opinion. But if I was making a mod from that time period those are the off hand changes I'd make. Maybe I'm the odd man out and everyone else aligns with your stats. Just one mans opinion good luck with your mod  

I will never understand why people think Flair was great at selling - sure he sold but often in an exaggerated way that took me out of his matches more than someone subtler like Mike Rotundo or Curt Henning.  Flair always felt like a Shakespearean style actor - making sure people at the back could see if you know what I mean.  Like everything else about Flair there was little restraint to his selling.  It would have worked better live than it did on TV to me.

With Moxley he definitely sells really well - there have been times where I wondered if he was genuinely concussed.  Modern workers who have a lot of TV experience tend to be more restrained in the way they sell things as they know the camera can catch you out if you over-do it. 

   

[Stennick]

@ToxicTurtleyTop are you making this mod from scratch? Is this your favorite time period? Any particular inspiration for doing this time? Is your goal to flesh out the whole world? How far along in the mod are you and are you using the external editor? In my experience its a lot quicker and easier if you're going to work on a whole mod.  Keep in mind some mods have high stats and some mods have low stats and I'd say as long as its balanced across the game world you're in good shape. When in 2018 do you plan on making this happen? All In happens in Sept of that year so its either the start or the end of an era so to speak. 

[Road Warrior Puke]

I would say almost all of his stats are 10 to 15 points too high. He's a good, not great wrestler.

[GrindhouseArts]

85 Hardcore and Deathmatch Specialist? If that's the baseline, I know a few folks who'd need a 4 digit number and a new attribute. Way too high for Mox, and not everyone who does deathmatches is a 'specialist' at them. 'Daredevil' also seems an overstatement. Bleeding isn't the same thing as Crazy Bumps.

I also disagree with 'Can't play gimmicky/cartoonish'. Have you seen early Mox in IWA-MS? Charisma 95, yeah, no. I do agree with the 75 Acting, but that should be the highest Performance stat. I mean, do what you want, but at this point, why not give him 100 Sex Appeal, too?

[Almaida]

You certainly picked a polarizing wrestler to do this with lol.

Full disclosure: I'm a big Moxley fan and I think he's great, but I also prefer lower stats across the board because I like to make things more challenging (and give room to develop). So I won't really comment on individual stats but I will comment on popularity.

It's hard to evaluate popularity in a vacuum; I'd need to at least see pop numbers for the major companies and some major stars to orient myself to your game world. But at a glance, Moxley's pop looks too high across the board. I like to think of worker pop as being downstream from company pop, so in this case it really matters how you've set up WWE's popularity. Mox of course was a huge name in WWE but rarely a proper main eventer and never close to a figurehead type, so his pop should be lower than WWE's pop in every region (if it's higher, then that would make him a major draw, which he wasn't for them). 85 USA seems a little high to me for WWE's pop even in 2024, let alone 2018 when they weren't nearly as hot as today.

The same goes for Moxley's Japanese popularity, relative to NJPW. He was certainly a name in NJPW but it's not like he was a huge draw on day 1, which 78 Japan suggests he would be.

On the flip side, he was immediately a top name and big draw for AEW when it started, so wherever his pop lands, it should be on the high end if not a little higher than AEW's starting popularity.

Again, it's hard to give concrete suggestions without knowing the broader context of your game world, but I'd definitely recommend revising popularity to be more in line with where the relevant companies land. Hope that helps a bit.

[Stennick]

5 hours ago, Almaida said:

You certainly picked a polarizing wrestler to do this with lol.

Full disclosure: I'm a big Moxley fan and I think he's great, but I also prefer lower stats across the board because I like to make things more challenging (and give room to develop). So I won't really comment on individual stats but I will comment on popularity.

It's hard to evaluate popularity in a vacuum; I'd need to at least see pop numbers for the major companies and some major stars to orient myself to your game world. But at a glance, Moxley's pop looks too high across the board. I like to think of worker pop as being downstream from company pop, so in this case it really matters how you've set up WWE's popularity. Mox of course was a huge name in WWE but rarely a proper main eventer and never close to a figurehead type, so his pop should be lower than WWE's pop in every region (if it's higher, then that would make him a major draw, which he wasn't for them). 85 USA seems a little high to me for WWE's pop even in 2024, let alone 2018 when they weren't nearly as hot as today.

The same goes for Moxley's Japanese popularity, relative to NJPW. He was certainly a name in NJPW but it's not like he was a huge draw on day 1, which 78 Japan suggests he would be.

On the flip side, he was immediately a top name and big draw for AEW when it started, so wherever his pop lands, it should be on the high end if not a little higher than AEW's starting popularity.

Again, it's hard to give concrete suggestions without knowing the broader context of your game world, but I'd definitely recommend revising popularity to be more in line with where the relevant companies land. Hope that helps a bit.

Agree with everything you said. Thats why I didn't comment on popularity because really stats and popularity both require comparison to the rest of the mod. 78 pop in Japan probably high. I would agree he instantly the top 1 or 2 guy in AEW popularity wise (probably more popular than Jericho but I could hear an argument for either). I also agree with the standpoint of for the most part giving guys room to develop. 

[The Otter]

Ultimately everyone is going to have different opinions of stats for wrestlers, build the database for yourself, build it to produce the output you want, then if you want to share it, allow people to enjoy it how it is

[TheDeep5ix]

Those stats are way too high. Here is a quick rundown, where I will point out the more egregious stuff:

• Stat inflation is too high. Honestly, having stats in the 60s is considered good by TEW standards (at least based on pre-made templates). Having several in the 80s+ is a bit questionable.
• How would you argue that he has 75 in Technical? That is insanely high for how he wrestlers, even ignoring the rest of the stat bloat.
• I'm not sure why he has 45 in Aerial. He barely does any high-flying moves, so it should be much lower since you shouldn't be able to have a decent High Spots match with Moxley.
• 55 in Flashiness is also weird since Moxley doesn't wrestle flashy. Part of his charm is his much simpler brawling/hardcore stuff, so this should be lowered a fair bit.
• 85 Psychology is a bit too high. I think low 70s would be more suitable.
• 95 Charisma is way, way too high. As others have pointed out, Moxley having a 95 in Charisma is insane. Very few wrestlers ever alive would have that level of charisma, and I don't see Moxley being one of them. 
• I think having Mic stat somewhere in the low 70s would be farer than 85.
• 75 acting is a bit too much. Most wrestlers are terrible to average actors. I know 70/100 is considered average in the real world, but TEW scales that much higher, so I would place the average around 40-50.
• 95 Selling is far too high. Like Charisma, very few wrestlers would be that good at selling.
• Funnily enough, I think you're underrating his Safety stat. I don't recall many people getting hurt wrestling him. 
• 95 Stamina is also way too high. He has some decently long matches, but none that make me think his cardio is Olympic-level.
• 75 Athleticism is also too high. Moxley is a good wrestler, but I wouldn't put it on his Athleticism. 
• 80 Power is a bit much for a guy who doesn't do much power moves and isn't particularly ripped.
• His Toughness is too high since his real-life BJJ competitions show that he isn't particularly good at actual fighting.
• I think his Resilience should be higher.

The Popularity stuff doesn't look too egregious, although that would be based on how other wrestlers and companies are rated.

[sockpuppet]

On 8/11/2024 at 12:30 AM, alpha2117 said:

I will never understand why people think Flair was great at selling - sure he sold but often in an exaggerated way that took me out of his matches more than someone subtler like Mike Rotundo or Curt Henning.  Flair always felt like a Shakespearean style actor - making sure people at the back could see if you know what I mean.  Like everything else about Flair there was little restraint to his selling.  It would have worked better live than it did on TV to me.

With Moxley he definitely sells really well - there have been times where I wondered if he was genuinely concussed.  Modern workers who have a lot of TV experience tend to be more restrained in the way they sell things as they know the camera can catch you out if you over-do it. 

   

It's not so much that he comically oversold, but if you watch Flair's old matches and forget about the strut and the flop, you get the sense that every time he got hit, his opponent was legitimately hurting him. That's how Flair was great at selling moves.

[ToxicTurtleyTop]

On 8/11/2024 at 1:40 AM, Stennick said:

@ToxicTurtleyTop are you making this mod from scratch? Is this your favorite time period? Any particular inspiration for doing this time? Is your goal to flesh out the whole world? How far along in the mod are you and are you using the external editor? In my experience its a lot quicker and easier if you're going to work on a whole mod.  Keep in mind some mods have high stats and some mods have low stats and I'd say as long as its balanced across the game world you're in good shape. When in 2018 do you plan on making this happen? All In happens in Sept of that year so its either the start or the end of an era so to speak. 

The mod is very rough so far but the insperation was me wanting a mod to rebook Jon Moxley's heel turn as Ambrose, So probably November becasue he turned in october

[alpha2117]

1 hour ago, sockpuppet said:

It's not so much that he comically oversold, but if you watch Flair's old matches and forget about the strut and the flop, you get the sense that every time he got hit, his opponent was legitimately hurting him. That's how Flair was great at selling moves.

The Strut and the Flop was obviously the most obvious over exaggeration but I've seen him sell fairly innocuous looking chops like he's been shot too.  Like I said he feels like a Shakespearean Stage actor to me where he's making sure people in the cheap seats know what he's doing.  Nothing wrong with that given the era he came up in but it hasn't really aged that well.  With Flair he sold things as always hurting to the extent that by the end of the match it was hard to believe he was still operational or that he would ever wrestle again - it's unrestrained.  In that era most people only saw you once in a blue moon so it didn't hurt too much but as TV became more and more prevalent that sort of selling has lessened because just doesn't work.  Obviously some modern workers no-sell too much but in general the selling now is more genuinely convincing than stuff Flair used to do - they sell big moves hard but with things like chops they sell it like they are tough guys who are going to battle through a little pain by a blow to the chest - chops still hurt especially Gunther's but they dont take you out in the way Flair used to sell them.  Flair was a fine seller but to me his style of selling was never particularly convincing.

[ubernoobDXA]

Put it this way, and using some old numbers:  He's very highly overrated in this picture IMO.  And I generally enjoy what Mox does.  The actual wrestling has never been his strongest point, though he puts on perfectly fine matches (remember the only reason people were hyped for him pre-WWE was his "I'm a sick guy" promo gaining a bunch of traction online.  He was never one of the workrate indy darlings noted for their technical skills.)

 

In TEW terms, since the game doesn't do grades anymore people may forget (or not even know!) the ranges.   I'm not separating them out by +/-, just remember that the lower 5 points are - and the upper 5 are +.

 

F : 0-17

E : 18-35

D : 36-53

C : 54-71

B : 72-89

A : 90-99

I'd probably have his Brawling somewhere in the low-to-mid 70s (~C+/B- range), Puro in the upper 40s/lower 50s (~D+/C-), Hardcore in the mid-upper 70s (~B), technical in the upper 40s-lower 50s (~D+/C-), aerial in the 30s (~E+/D-), flashiness in the 40s (~D).  Psychology could be mid-upper 70s (B/B+), Experience/Respect/Reputation all pretty high those seem relatively fine.  Charisma would be somewhere in the upper 60s/lower 70s (C+/B-), microphone in the same, acting in the 50s-60s range(~C-/C), star quality/sex appeal is entirely personal but I'd have him in the mid/upper 70s (~B), menace somewhere in the 60s (~C.)

 

Remember this is an all-time scale, generally speaking.  But I also prefer my mods to feel more... 'realistic' and not just spit out highly rated matches at me.  Pop seems a bit high, I'd probably put him in the lower 70s in the US (B- range) and scale from there.

Edited August 18 by ubernoobDXA