Prestige questions

[QuikSand]

After hearing about the new patching, and watching a little college football of late, I'm giving this game another run. I am (prehaps regrettably) playing as a small conference team from the MAC, starting with a prestige rating of 40, which is basically what I prefer. Anyway... I'm having two issues of frustration, and wondering if anyone here can either confirm or correct my impressions. I may have raised these some time ago when I first purchased the game, but it seems both are unresolved, or are at least still baffling to me. #1 -- I don't know what moves the team prestige, or how that is calculated, but intuitively, I'd expect that a season exceeding reasonable expectations would tend to bring prestig upward, at whatever rate. My BGSU team ran the table in-conference, won the conference championship game in a blow out, and lost a close game to Iowa in the Motor City Bowl -- by pretty much any account, a very solid season for a MAC team, I would think. However, my team's prestige dropped after that year... admittedly it was by a smaller increment than it droped the preceding 6-6 season (so it seems at least partially rational) but I have trouble imaging what I'd need to do to get my 40 prestige team out of that rut if a conference title and 10-4 season isn't enough to even move us slightly upward. #2 -- I am sensing that the prestige number is tied to multiple things, which may not make sense. Again with my BGSU team -- after the 10-4 conference championship season, my roster was still littered with players who were upset about how the team wasn't doing well. My best guess is that this in-game function is governed by the prestige rating, rather than whatever sort of "recent success" measure might seem to make more sense. Honestly, my team goes 8-0 in its conference and wins the conf title easily, and my team is full of guys moping around because the team isn't winning games? I don't see how I can ever end up with a team full of anything but malcontents at this rate. Any insight would be welcome. I've always had a general sense that playing as a smaller conference team was an imperfect fit in this game. I'm wondering if there are any settings or adjustments I might be able to make to better accomodate the kind of reaction that I'm looking for, in game, to the kind of successes that a team like this ought to be shooting for.

[Arlie Rahn]

These are good questions and it's always tough to get a good balance of stable prestige movement without making the game cartoonish and allowing a lower rated team to become a national power in a few seasons. Here's the general process for calculating prestige decrease/improvement: overall performance (judged by record and relative CPU ranking), strength of recruiting class and bowl game performance. First, how you do in terms of the board is meaningless in terms of overall prestige. Making the board happy will help you keep your job (and even get more budget money at times), but it does not impact your prestige. Your prestige is how your program is viewed nationally so I would look at the following information: 1. End of season computer ranking. Even if you get 9-10 wins, if your SOS is 100 and your CPU ranking is in the 60s, you probably won't see massive prestige changes. At a prestige of 40-45, the "expectations" are that you will be in the 80 rating from a CPU standpoint. So, to get a good boost, you need to break into the top 50. 2. Recruit class rating. Here, your goal should be in the top 60 to get any kind of boost. This is a much smaller percentage than overall performance though. 3. Winning your bowl game. Doing this will add an extra factor to your prestige that may be enough to provide an increase. The biggest misconconception is that if you go out and get 10 wins with a patsy schedule (SOS in the 90+ range), finish with a CPU rating in the 60s and a recruiting class in the 70s that you will see big prestige increases on 40-50 rated teams. Now, if you were in the 30s, this would be true. But, getting from 40 to 60 is a very tough road in this game. To do that you really need to finish in the top 50 of CPU rating and top 50 in recruiting for a bunch of seasons (also winning your bowl game). If you can get into the top 25 in rankings, that's another nice boost. So, it comes down to a tough dilemma. Do you schedule 3-4 patsies for non-conference and try to get 10-11 wins (but an SOS in the 100 range) or schedule a couple major conference teams and risk a few extra losses but improve your SOS. I would also look at the rate of prestige change that you set in your options. If you set it to lower than Normal, it's doubtful you will see much of a change. I will probably end up tweaking this in some form for the next version, but I took the stance of treating prestige on a national level - meaning you need to finish well compared to other teams in the ratings (prim CPU and top 25 polls), have good recruiting classes and win your bowl game.

[Ragin Cajun]

Arlie, just curious. I also like to start careers with a lower team and try to work my way up. I'm playing with a 29 rated team. My recruiting classes are always in the #110 range, I rarely get any recruits above #2000 nationally except for the player that expresses interest. Here's a few items that I can't get past to better my team: 1. Recruiting: As mentioned above I get no interest from anyone above #2000 nationally for the most part. Even local players from my home state only have 4 or 5 interests at best for my program. I also see NO success in recruiting a player with a 5 or 6 interest level and sign them, even in the final week of recruiting where they have no other offers showing on the "top" team list. 2. If I recruit the players that are 10 or 9 in interest to my program, so that I can see some players signing with me, I continually get worse and cannot compete with teams in my conference. I've run about 30 careers fast simming and handling my own recruiting starting with low level teams. I have yet to finish a career with a .500 record overall, or in conference play. Historically, my best team is the team I inherit and it is downward from there.

[QuikSand]

Arlie, thanks for the quick response (and happy holidays). [QUOTE=Arlie Rahn;175371]I would also look at the rate of prestige change that you set in your options. If you set it to lower than Normal, it's doubtful you will see much of a change.[/quote] I'm confused by this... in the case I mentioned above, my team's prestige DROPPED from 39.2 to 38.8, I believe, following my 10-win season. I can buy the general notion that my team didn't do enough to see a prestige increase, but am I misunderstanding the nature of the "rate of change" variable here? I'm not expressing frustration that my team's prestige didn't gp up rapidly enough, I'm frustrated that it actually went down. Wouldn't increasing the rate of change just `mean that it would go down even more rapidly? [quote]I will probably end up tweaking this in some form for the next version, but I took the stance of treating prestige on a national level - meaning you need to finish well compared to other teams in the ratings (prim CPU and top 25 polls), have good recruiting classes and win your bowl game.[/QUOTE] So... for a team like now 38-prestige BGSU, we need to become a Top 25 entrant most years in order to improve there? I can live with that, even ii I might disagree on the degrees involved. On my other question... if my team continues to post pretty good conference records, winning seasons, and so forth -- but we fail to crack the Top 25 or rankings sufficient to bring up our prestige... am I going to be perennially faced with a team full of mopes who are always angry at how we are such losers?

[DocStevens]

I find moving a low prestige team into the top 25 very easy but it is much more difficult to take the next step and win the National Championship. I took Northern Illinois from a 40 prestige to a 57 prestige in 3 seasons and to a #10 overall ranking. However, I got smoked in my bowl game against a "major" program and am not sure how to get to the next level. I assume my prestige will stop taking such major jumps since expectations for the program are now much higher than before.

[QuikSand]

[QUOTE=DocStevens;175392]I took Northern Illinois from a 40 prestige to a 57 prestige in 3 seasons and to a #10 overall ranking.[/QUOTE] Okay, I'll bite. I assume that in order to do this, you got your team to really excel right away (like scheculing very tough non-conf games and still winning a lot) and that you have prestige movement set high as well. Correct? I guess I don't mind seeing that I'm just not doing well enough yet... if it's just a matter of recalibrating my own expectations, I can do that, I suppose.

[Ragin Cajun]

[QUOTE=DocStevens;175392]I find moving a low prestige team into the top 25 very easy but it is much more difficult to take the next step and win the National Championship. I took Northern Illinois from a 40 prestige to a 57 prestige in 3 seasons and to a #10 overall ranking. However, I got smoked in my bowl game against a "major" program and am not sure how to get to the next level. I assume my prestige will stop taking such major jumps since expectations for the program are now much higher than before.[/QUOTE] Do you play out your games? In simming my seasons I can't get a winning record, let alone become a top 25 team. Any tips on what you are doing in recruiting?

[Arlie Rahn]

[QUOTE=QuikSand;175386]Arlie, thanks for the quick response (and happy holidays).[/quote] No problem. I feel the more transparancy I give into certain aspects of the game, the less frustration there may be. [quote]I'm confused by this... in the case I mentioned above, my team's prestige DROPPED from 39.2 to 38.8, I believe, following my 10-win season. I can buy the general notion that my team didn't do enough to see a prestige increase, but am I misunderstanding the nature of the "rate of change" variable here? I'm not expressing frustration that my team's prestige didn't gp up rapidly enough, I'm frustrated that it actually went down. Wouldn't increasing the rate of change just `mean that it would go down even more rapidly?[/quote] That comment (rate of change set) was more of a global comment than one geared specifically towards your situation. Obviously, the rate of prestige change would not have impacted the fact that your prestige went down half a point (instead of up). I'm guessing that your overall ranking (combo of record, SOS, margin of victory, Opp SOS,...), recruiting class and fact you lost the bowl game were the reasons you went down. By the amount of the decrease and stated record, it seems you were right on the border of the increase/decrease threshold. [quote]So... for a team like now 38-prestige BGSU, we need to become a Top 25 entrant most years in order to improve there? I can live with that, even ii I might disagree on the degrees involved.[/quote] That would be a sure fire way to improve. But, more generally, I would state that if you can finish in the top 40-49 and get a recruiting class in the top 60-65, you should see an increase. If you win your bowl game, it may be even higher. [quote]On my other question... if my team continues to post pretty good conference records, winning seasons, and so forth -- but we fail to crack the Top 25 or rankings sufficient to bring up our prestige... am I going to be perennially faced with a team full of mopes who are always angry at how we are such losers?[/QUOTE] It depends on the type of recruit. Some players will join your program hoping its on the rise and may be disappointed if it doesn't increase over 2-3 seasons. Others will value a chance to play more, some will be happy because they are close to their hometown while others will be there for your style/system. Winning your bowl game is another way to improve everyone's spirits. Finally, to advice for people starting in the lower range, here's what I would state: 20-35: Try to get one decent transfer (but it will be tough). Focus on building a system and finding more "one dimensional" players to fit it. I have the best success when I chose something like "Smash Mouth" or "Run and Shoot" and then focus on doing that one thing well. If it's running, get good run-blocking OL, trying to get a good running RB (don't pay attention to pass catching or blocking) and look for bigger WRs and blocking TEs. Try a similar strategy if you focus on passing. For defense, try to get the best talent you can and then tailor your system to that group. You should also try to schedule non-conference pastsies as getting a few additional wins are more important than your SOS (which will always be awful). 36-45: Really hit the transfer market hard. The top players in this prestige region will usually get 2-3 transfers each season (often at key spots like QB or RB). Like the prior group, I would also try to tailor your defense to the talent, but you should also do the same with your offense. If a 3 or 4 star guy out there wants to play (ie, QB, RB or WR) and you land him, feel free to adjust your offensive style to his strengths. Same with transfers. For scheduling, try to do 1-2 patsies and get 1-2 teams that have a decent prestige, but maybe lack the roster talent. You can do that by viewing their prestige on the scheduling screen and then seeing what they are ranked. If you can get a game against a 60-prestige team not listed near the top 25 (and projected mid-lower in their conference), that's a good target. Finally, really sell out to win your bowl game. The difference between going from 42-43 or staying pat may be a win in your bowl game. I hope this helps.

[Ragin Cajun]

[QUOTE=Arlie Rahn;175449] 20-35: Try to get one decent transfer (but it will be tough). Focus on building a system and finding more "one dimensional" players to fit it. I have the best success when I chose something like "Smash Mouth" or "Run and Shoot" and then focus on doing that one thing well. If it's running, get good run-blocking OL, trying to get a good running RB (don't pay attention to pass catching or blocking) and look for bigger WRs and blocking TEs. Try a similar strategy if you focus on passing. For defense, try to get the best talent you can and then tailor your system to that group. You should also try to schedule non-conference pastsies as getting a few additional wins are more important than your SOS (which will always be awful). I hope this helps.[/QUOTE] The big problem is that if recruits transfer in order to play more (which I believe is the main reason) then a low level team would be a sure thing for more playing time. I rarely, if ever, have a player on the transfer list with anything more than LOW for an interest rating. The other problem is that I lose money off my weekly amount available for recruiting whether I sign a player or not so I can offer out 10 to 12 scholarships but then I face recruiting with no money available to scout or actually recruit players. Tough call to go this route.

[DocStevens]

[QUOTE=QuikSand;175410]Okay, I'll bite. I assume that in order to do this, you got your team to really excel right away (like scheculing very tough non-conf games and still winning a lot) and that you have prestige movement set high as well. Correct? I guess I don't mind seeing that I'm just not doing well enough yet... if it's just a matter of recalibrating my own expectations, I can do that, I suppose.[/QUOTE] My team record for the first 3 seasons was: 12-1 (8-0): Won Conference Title and Bowl Game 10-4 (7-1): Won Conference Title and Bowl Game 12-2 (7-1): Won Conference Title and Bowl Game Now the best part is that my AD's expectations for each of those seasons was only to get 2nd place in the conference and beat my rival so I was able to easily exceed that. For my out of conference games I scheduled teams with prestige in the high 50s/low 60s who had a description of "a team nobody wants to play but will probably struggle to win games". It worked well because I was able to beat them (I played those games out) and then each season at least one of those non-conferences teams actually did well and got into the top 25 which made my SOS better, etc. I stayed away from transfers for the most part and only picked up one each season (but the transfer was VERY good). Also and this is a key part, I signed very expensive coaches and paid for it by only spending money in recuriting in my region (stayed away from the East/West coast and focused on MIdwest). The extra money spent on coaching was very important. Not sure what to say on recruiting besides going after need positions and players who are in-state, being smart with redshirting, and look a season or two ahead when recruiting. I got "lucky" because from the start I had alot of 3 star guys wanting to play for my team. Here are my recruiting class rankings: 2007: 82 (7 three star, 3 two star, 2 one star) 2008: 41 (3 four star, 10 three star) 2009: 24 (5 four star, 12 three star, 2 two star) However I am not trying to say I know it all because I don't and am actually a bit stuck because I had a high ranking last season but got crushed in my only game vs a top 10 team so not sure what to do next. Also I don't think it is out of line for a team like Northern Illinois to lurk around the top 25 for a couple of seasons especially if they have good coaching and get some good instate talent.

[DocStevens]

[QUOTE=Ragin Cajun;175431]Do you play out your games? In simming my seasons I can't get a winning record, let alone become a top 25 team. Any tips on what you are doing in recruiting?[/QUOTE] I usually sim the games but I will play out the games vs very tough teams since it seems I have a better chance to win by playing it out. However, my teams are NOT run focused. If your team is run focused then do NOT play out the games because you will lose. BBCF has a huge flaw in the run game when playing out games and you will get crushed. You can have a 2,000 yard RB but if you play out the game against the worst Run Defense in the country you will still probably get stats like 35 carries for 20 yards. :mad:

[Ragin Cajun]

I sim all my games. I just can't get over the lack of success in this game with a low team, very frustrating. Not that I expect to go 11-1 and be a top 25team. I would like to finish .500 and compete for the conference championship on occasion though.

[QuikSand]

Just to follow up... it looks like things are taking shape as predicted. After my fourth season at BGSU, we managed a decent 7-6 season (capped by a close loss in the conference title game) and a rating of 56th in the season-ending RPI. Our recruiting was ranked 57th in the country. And finally, we saw a tiny uptick in our prestige - after dropping three straight years, we went up by a fraction of a point this season. So, at least it's possible to see. Incidentally, at season's end, I was not littered with angry players as I had feared - we were pretty uniformly happy, other than a few guys who were suspended/redshirt-transfers and upset about that. So... it looks like the career is at least viable from the smallish conference start. Thanks for your input, Arlie.

[QuikSand]

[QUOTE=QuikSand;175881]Incidentally, at season's end, I was not littered with angry players as I had feared - we were pretty uniformly happy, other than a few guys who were suspended/redshirt-transfers and upset about that.[/QUOTE] It seems I spoke too soon... as the new season starts, I'm now back to having nearly half of my team listed with the statement "XXX is not thrilled about the team's play, but he thinks we will pull out pf this rut soon." Every single player seems to bee listed as "unsure" with morale. Not sure if that has any bearing on the team -- so far, we haven't seen any losses to transfers or that sort of thing, at least. *shurg*

[Ragin Cajun]

I've noticed that even after going unbeaten and winning a national championship. I think that's a random scattering at the beginning of the season. Recheck those players after a few games (assuming wins) and see if they change around again.

[Cooleyvol]

Several will be unsure at the start of the season as they havent seen how they're going to be utilized.

[chanman]

I also did not find it hard to build a lower level team up. I started with UCF in CUSA. Not sure what the initial prestige was. I decided to schedule as easy of teams as I could. I scheduled my "rival" Miami (OH) (not sure where that came from - should be USF) along with FIU and FAU and some other bad team. I built up early wins and managed to go undefeated and got the bowl bid to Memphis. Beat and finished as high as 8th in the media poll. This got me tons of transfer opportunities. Getting wins and obviously having playing time got me key RBs and QBs. 2 more undefeated seasons and in my 4th year got a bid to the title game. Lost it to Kentucky for my first ever loss. Began to schedule better teams as my talent got better. I also grabbed assistants who could develop the best. I left UCF in 2015 with 5 national titles and just the one loss to UK. This was before the 1.5x patches so I was frustrated by the polls always starting me like 40th despite having prestige of 90ish and top talent in the nation and never losing yet never being ranked. Only 5 titles in 10 undefeated seasons. So I went to ND where I've turned them from a 6-6 team to 6 titles in 8 years and just one loss. I'm now hoping the UCF job opens back up with the conference movement. They replaced USF in the Big East. I guess it all works differently for different people. Just thought I'd provide some ideas for people.

[QuikSand]

[QUOTE=Cooleyvol;176031]Several will be unsure at the start of the season as they havent seen how they're going to be utilized.[/QUOTE] Well, I wouldn't have any trouble at all if my players were uncertain about things like playing time and utilization... but since they are explicitly saying they are worried about the team's performance (and hoping we can pull out of it), I'm a little miffed.

[QuikSand]

[QUOTE=chanman;176266]I guess it all works differently for different people. [/QUOTE] I guess so. *shurg*

[mauboy]

I'm in 2047(started in 20's) with my MTSU single player career and we're sitting on a Prestige of 66.. Last season we were at 60 after having a horrible 9-3 season and the following season we went 12-0 with a cupcake schedule but lost in the first round of the playoffs to the eventual champs.. we got a boost of 6 points. This year I hope to the same thing to get into the 70's for prestige, which would be my highest achievement.

[QuikSand]

Well, since I got this started, I thought I might as well keep documenting what I see, becauswe it's a little weird to me. We just wrapped up season five under my hand, and BGSU had a mediocre season... 6-6 overall, but 5-4 in the conference. We had a scheduling bug/quirk that gave us two games at Navy (both of which we lost), who had just been moved into the MAC (and oddly was forced to play a 16-game schedule this year). I guess that makes up, in part, for us hardly ever being able to play against our in-game rival Toledo, who resides in the other side of the MAC. *shurg* Anyway... the more interesting facet is that after this pretty mediocre season, and a recruiting class ranked 86th (not my best), we had our first major leap forward in prestige, jumping all the way to 41.6, a leap of almost three full points, I'm pretty certain. I'm not really sure how to account for that... but I'm starting to suspect that perhaps part of the engine underneath all this is an ordinal one, rather than a cardinal one. Combine that along with my sneaking suspicion that my team's initial prestige was potentially inflated a bit, and this might be making sense a bit more -- now that the game has escaped the skew of the initial stock of players, we'll see things make more sense. All in the FWIW column. I'm hoping the scheduling mess was just a conference movement related hiccup, and that we'll be past that going forward. And perhaps we'll start to see our program actually move up in prestige a shade, and we'll be able to land a meaningful impact player or two via recruiting, rather than the annual transfer crapshoot.

[mauboy]

QS- BGSU in my single player league is a heavy-weight school! They win 10 games every year and we, MTSU, are 4-0 against them lifetime.. including seasons in which they were Top 25 teams! ;) You've got plenty to look forward too.

[Ragin Cajun]

I wish I could see this success. I wonder if the depth of talent in a particular area of the country plays a role in all this. I start play with Louisiana-Lafayette in the Sun Belt. They are about a 29 prestige to start. I've managed only one .500 season with them in four careers going into the 2030's, not counting the initial season. I never have a 9 or 10 interested player higher than the 2000s in national ranking. I've tried recruiting by national ranking AND by scouting and taking the highest stat ratings. No avail either way. Naturally, since we are seeded #117 or so nationally, we are at the very bottom of the list so there are no "patsies" to play with....we are the patsie. Anyway, I've gotten fired every career without fail after a 0, 1 or 2 win season down the line somewhere. I can never get transfers even though I can GUARANTEE playing time, the best recruit I get is the one that e-mails an interest each year, and I lose that player on occasion. Anyway, very frustrating to me that I'm 100 or so seasons in and never built up this club. Even with Houston around a 39 rating, I'm seeing the same thing. I've taken to cheating finally, changing our rating to a 50 each year to be able to attract mainly 2 star players and an occasional 3 star player. Getting some talent has helped and I've managed three straight winning seasons doing this as I wait for the prestige to inch up to actually reach 50 for real.

[mauboy]

Problem may be that you can't see who's interested in you.. do you have lots of ? Interest players? Often times what I'll do when I've had multiple bad recruiting classes, I'll let the computer take over and see what they can do for me.. often times its worst but when I can't get much worse it sometimes helps. *shrug*

[lessthanjed]

It isn't always wise to schedule teams from major conferences. If I'm a lower rated team, I try to schedule the previous seasons conference champions from other non-bcs conferences. It works well when many of these teams have 10-2 years and finish near the top 25, which only improves your SOS and gives you an actually winnable game against teams with comparable talent.