lazorbeak

I guess you just mean angle/promo time? Because otherwise I'm not sure how Barrett's getting more time than anybody. He's getting maybe 2-3 minutes a night if they don't give it to Rusev or somebody else. That's less time than the Santino/Emma storyline. Less time than a Ryback match. Has he even been on Raw in the past 2-3 weeks? The last time I remember seeing him was knocking over Cody and Goldust's toys, outside of using him as a time-killer at Elimination Chamber. None of which really sells him as "future top heel" to me. And Fandango gets used plenty as a body to put into random Main Event and Smackdown matches. He just loses a lot.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="dpoolez" data-cite="dpoolez" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Youd think with the decline in ratings mixed with the fans/smark doom and gloom that hed still be just a millionaire. The WWE network mustve really been that big of a deal then, and in that case I expect him to exceed that when the fans start to really buy into the network the way that they potentially can.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The ratings haven't "declined," as mentioned; they're actually up proportionally from where they were 5-6 years ago. And it's a combination of the network and the new domestic TV deal they're negotiating for right now that's causing their stock to get a bit artificially inflated.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="jaysin" data-cite="jaysin" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Which guy are you referring to? I'm guessing Drew McIntyre.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> WWE's use of talent is so bad it's hard to tell! I was actually referring to Wade Barrett!</p>

He's got enough entertainment potential that I think he'd be better served being on the main roster and building experience with live crowds. They've got plenty of guys who can help train him in house show matches while he wrestles 3 minute matches on TV and gets his character over. That said, this is a company that took a 6'7" dude who could work, talk, and was a natural heel and managed to turn him into a complete joke, so clearly their talent evaluations aren't the same as mine.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Slim Jim" data-cite="Slim Jim" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Was he talking to him face-to-face? Because if so, then that doesn't negate the point about Cena, just means Rock did it too... if they weren't both present then it's a different scenario. If you're just cutting a promo by yourself, then fine, make light of the guy, but when he's RIGHT THERE, you need to show at least some acknowledgement of him being a threat. Anyway, it was just a small thing I noticed, didn't mean for it to get drawn out into an extended discussion, and I already said it wouldn't dent Bray's momentum anywhere near noticeably but it certainly didn't help him, which was more my point.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm not trying to "negate" anything, I'm just showing that this is nothing new, it's what smarmy babyfaces in WWE have been doing for 15 years. If anything, Cena no-selling his knee injury what, two weeks after being murdered by the Wyatts is worse than him being joke-y on the microphone.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="RayW" data-cite="RayW" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="28397" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I agree, a very good experience. It's the first game in a while to actually toy with my emotions, I haven't had that happen for a few years (I'm trying to think and the last game to have done that may have been Gears of War 2 with the story of Dom and his wife).</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Speaking of short indie games that make people feel emotions, did anyone else play Gone Home? It's a bit gimmicky but I can't remember the last time I got that attached to characters I never even met.</p>

"Undertaker, with his mickey-mouse tattoos and his 33 pound head, jumpin' around screaming like a girl." -The Rock, talking about the Undertaker in 1999, a few moments before saying that Undertaker and Big Show would wet themselves when The Rock appeared. Seriously John Cena talking about Cracker Barrel isn't going to kill Bray.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="bigtplaystew" data-cite="bigtplaystew" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So is it better for Cena to lie down and let Bray trash him and not retaliate a single decent shot back at him until Wrestlemania? Is JOHN CENA supposed to cower in fear of Bray Wyatt? It's John Cena, man. He NEVER BACKS DOWN lol. <p> </p><p> I don't know. I feel like when two wrestlers go at each other on the mic, they each get to hit each other. I think cena making fun of Bray is 100% fair game. Now bray has to go back and tear Cena a new one on Smackdown. Thats how a hot feud should play out IMO. These are, from what I understand, two guys on a very small list who do the old school promo style of receiving bullet points and doing the rest on their own. It feels more real if Wyatt is trying to tear down Cena and Cena laughs it off. Ifeel like that's how it SHOULD go. But that's my opinion.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah I also agree with this. Wyatt for his part didn't go "awww man why'd you trash my fedora geez," he just laughed off Cena's jokes creepily and sent his goons in. That's how these feuds are supposed to work. </p><p> </p><p> Also, sometimes for fun I go back to the start of this WWE thread and read all the gloom and doom predictions about how Sheamus is an awful wrestler and he'll be fired within the year and it cracks me up. He had a great match tonight. I wish he had more to do at Wrestlemania than being in the final three-four of the Andre battle royale.</p><p> </p><p> Also, I made the joke elsewhere, but I'll make it again: I hope Hogan has an even bigger trophy for himself, in true Wrestlemania III style.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="fullMETAL" data-cite="fullMETAL" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Main Event last week was pretty good, with the Usos defending against Los Matadores because the Outlaws were "too injured" at the time.<p> Methinks the NAO/Usos tag title rematch may very well be at WrestleMania after all.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It'll likely be a six or 8 man match involving Cody and Goldust, surely. More than likely it'll be on the pre-show, too.</p>

The silver-lining of that King of the Road match is it directly led to Goldust in WWF, since he got fired over it.

This isn't really true, but you're right that Punk has never really been a needle-moving guy for WWE. I think it was the Grantland wrestling podcast that called him a "wrestling fan's wrestler," which is pretty true. How many big CM Punk fans are going to quit watching the product because he's not around? I'm also not really sure how it's "riskier" for anyone involved. As long as Punk isn't too physically broken down, there's money to be made from him in WWE. If he wants to come back, there's no question that WWE would find a spot for him, the same way they do for Jericho or anybody else. If it sells some "vintage" Punk merch, do you really think WWE is going to be like "no, you went home"? I mean, Austin went home and came back, after he was already physically broken down. There were hurt feelings when Rock's contract ran out, and he came back and wrestled even when he absolutely didn't have to. Sable was fired, filed a lawsuit, disparaged the company, and still was back on TV 5 years later. Big Show took a break in 2006 and was back about 15 months later. Brock Lesnar had a much worse falling out and was also involved in right to work lawsuits, and still came back. If Punk wants to come back, there will almost certainly be a spot for him.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It was the opener because that is what midcard titles have been doing for decades. It set the bar for a good show and got it off on the right foot.<p> </p><p> Swagger is criminally underrated</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I understand the purpose of midcard titles, but the purpose of <em>openers</em> is to get the crowd fired up for the rest of the show. Which is why you usually see tag matches, multi-man matches, or dynamic babyface matches (Rey, Kofi, etc.). Trusting Big E and Swagger with the opening spot actually does mean something, since in general, it means you're setting the tone for the show, and neither guy has been in that position much lately, but they delivered. </p><p> </p><p> I agree that Swagger's underrated. It's a shame his tag partner is even better. If you dropped Jack Swagger through a time warp into WCW pre-1996, there's no way he's not a top guy. He's huge, he's a great worker, he just suffers from comparisons to slightly more dynamic huge guys like Lesnar and being a bit limited on the mic.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="shawn michaels 82" data-cite="shawn michaels 82" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yes.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I thought that might be the case. I really liked his match with Swagger, though. I didn't understand why it was an opener since I figured no one would be over, but they just suplexed each other to death all match and it was pretty great (until the finish).</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You say things like Ryback was being cheered by kids over Cena? Give me an example. You can't say that. Give me proof, find me a video of Cena and Ryback in the same ring being cheered by children. Find me a link to someone, anyone saying that Ryback was the number two merch seller during that time. Because since the Summer of Punk he's been the number 2 merch seller, Rey Mysterio is a big time merch seller, Ryback is not and has never been "the number two merchandise seller". I'd love to see a link to anyone stating that this was the case. Same thing with kids cheering Cena over Ryback. You can tell Cena has the kids on his side because they are what gives him his pop when his music hits to drawn out the dislike of the guys our age. Did you poll the children before shows "who are you cheering for Ryback or Cena?". Ryback was over because they gave him a winning streak. Thats how Goldberg got over, thats how Wrath got over in 98. A winning streak is the easiset way in in wrestling to get someone over. Thats how you get EVERYONE over is by winning, so if you ALWAYS win then it stands to reason you'll be over. Like Cornette said though there is no good way to end a winning streak and once you do what do you do from there? Its not like Ryback was good at cutting promos (he's still not) and its not like he's that amazing in the ring. Ryback was a big guy, with an explosive offense, that had a winning streak. You take away his winning streak and he's on the same level as half the guys on the roster without the skills to "rise above". Ryback was never going to be the guy.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I googled it and the only source I can find is Ryback saying it, which was immediately followed by everyone saying "what about Punk, Rock, and Daniel Bryan?" Since Bryan already had the basic "yes" shirt by then.</p><p> </p><p> I do think Ryback is a bit underrated in the mic department, but I don't blame the company for feeding him (pun intended) to Cena for a couple of months. My only disappointment was that it meant Mark Henry had a briefer feud with Cena, and Henry's better on the mic (I loved his phony retirement) and generally steadier than Ryback, who can be more hit or miss.</p><p> </p><p> Also, unrelated, but why does everybody bleed when they wrestle Big E? Is he just working super stiff?</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>On a side note it wasn't fans that killed the piledrivers it was Owen Hart breaking Steve Austin's neck with it, it was D Lo brown delivering a running powerbomb (similar to a piledriver) and breaking Droz's neck. Its an incredibly dangerous move and there is no need for risk like that. The DDT has been a regular move for two decades outside of Jake Roberts. There are countless finishes that are still over. the AA, The GTS (god I hate that move). etc. Its an easy rule. If YOU'RE over your finish is over its that simple. CM Punk could hit a 100 GTS' in one night and the move would still be over. The Big Show got a punch over. The most basic move in pro wrestling. John Cena made the STF a lights out finish for a global audience. I could give a million examples.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> This is completely true. Wrestling fans are conditioned to believe that certain moves are "medium" level moves and some are finishers, and they'll believe Big Show's punch is somehow not the same thing as Khali's punch or Daniel Bryan's punch because the WWE has put in the work of putting over that move and that wrestler.</p><p> </p><p> I will say there are times when a dude's finisher means more than he does- if a guy isn't over, but he has a flashy finish, that move will likely be over before the worker gets over, but a lot of the time that ends up being a vehicle to put the wrestler over.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Actually moves aren't over if the person is over, it's dependent on how each group of fans are trained to react to a certain move. For example, Hogan's legdrop generated massive pops around the United States for decades, however in Japan specifically against Muta in 1993. He performed his legdrop to no applause in which Muta kicked out only to be nailed by Hogan's old Japanese Finisher the Ax Bomber which generated a massive ovation. Probably because good ol' popular Gajin Stan Hansen used the Lariat as his finisher, either that or they were trained to react to a Hogan's old finisher.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's... the same thing. You proved Stennick's point. The crowd didn't pop Hogan's legdrop because Hogan wasn't over the same way in Japan. He (and by extension the company) didn't put in the work putting over the leg drop, so it wasn't over the same way. If the crowd doesn't see Hogan win with his finishing combination, and/or if they see other guys doing similar combinations of boot/leg drop and it doesn't win matches, then they're conditioned to believe it's not a finisher.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Russelrules44" data-cite="Russelrules44" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Oh god, Guess what the audience just came up with..........Bootista, lol.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I was dying when I heard that, especially since I made that obligatory joke earlier in the night. </p><p> </p><p> After those crowd reactions, I would be legitimately stunned if they don't have Vince or Hulkster or somebody come out and maneuver taking the belt off Orton and set Batista up as a de facto heel.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Stating that Vince wanted the title off him the second he won it 7 years later and only won it because the juiced out Eddie Guerrero died is a huge point and I have no clue how anyone could overlook that. Especially when he wanted it off Mysterio literately a month and a half later at his first PPV title defense.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> In what universe is that a "huge point"? It literally has nothing to do with anything anyone said! We're done talking about this.</p><p> </p><p> New Attitude Era podcast this weekend. They cover Unforgiven '99, and spoiler alert: it's bad. Al Snow vs. Bossman in kennel from hell match, the refs are on strike, and Triple H is a heel being booked as a babyface.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Vince never wanted the title on Rey Mysterio in the first place. In fact he had him booked to lose to JBL at Judgement Day 2006. Lucky for Rey Mysterio, JBL suffered a career threatening injury a month before their match at Judgement Day 2006 during a the U.K tour and it delayed the inevitable at least until the next PPV.<p> </p><p> Also I'm sick of the belt's being the be all and end all of wrestling logic of being over. You know it's a work right? The promoter decides who wins the title. In a real world Rey Mysterio never beats anyone.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'm sure you think you're making a point here, but you're really not making an argument. I was responding to the non-logic that you and whoever is watching TV with you doesn't care about a "little guy" because he's not going to be champ. My counter is that the WCW cruiserweight division was a popular part of WCW programming, even though Rey Mysterio and Ultimo Dragon never competed for the world title. The point was, it's silly to dismiss entertaining wrestlers just because they won't be franchise-level top guys. </p><p> </p><p> Countering by bringing up Rey Mysterio's title run 9 years later in a different company has nothing to do with anything. Neither does bringing up the fact that titles are a work. Why are you even bringing that up? I'm not even going to address the steroid stuff because that's a whole other can of worms.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Speaking of suspending of your disbelief, Brock Lesnar is a perfect example of this, once he beat Frank Mir at UFC 100 and basically turned heel on everyone with his post fight interview, he became the top drawing UFC fighter of all time. That's a fact. Anytime someone can work you into thinking they're really a heel in real life, they have your money because who doesn't want to see a dick get punched out? <p> </p><p> Why do you think Biebers doing all the crazy shit he's doing in real life now? He's turning heel because that draws money. How many people in the world would pay to see Justin Bieber get beaten up by Brock Lesnar? I think everyone in the world would pay to see that fight. In fact, I think everyone would pay money to see anything bad happen to Bieber. If he had a trial tomorrow and they put that on PPV, millions upon millions of people would order that just to see if they put him in jail.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> But Brock was already a huge draw, and UFC 100 is their biggest show ever? Also, what does that have to do with absolutely anything? Your point went from something about small guys have to work stiff, to Brock Lesnar is a great heel? Am I missing something? And why are you bringing up a pop music act? My point is and was that it's dumb to dismiss a guy solely because he's not going to be the next franchise of the company. </p><p> </p><p> And it's more than a little bizarre to cite Eddie Guerrero as a guy who was over for being crazy, and <em>not</em> be a supporter of Daniel Bryan, a little guy who incorporates strong style kicks and has become hugely over by being a great wrestler. It seems like if you were into one of them, you'd be into the other.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="dpoolez" data-cite="dpoolez" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>As much as I hated Orton for WM25, he has come a long way since then. He's probably one of the best in the WWE right now. Even Kurt Angle gave Orton props when he was bagging on Punk a while back.<p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> How is WM 25 not squarely on Triple H for killing Orton's heat, then booking a match where the tough cool babyface beats up the cowardly heel via weapons in a non-hardcore match?</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Also regardless if Christian worked like a heel we didn't care, WWE's shoved it down our throats for years that people like Daniel Bryan and Christian are losers and won't ever be the main attraction of the show.<p> </p><p> Small guys who aren't good looking or roided up will never be the main attraction of the show. Even if they win the title, they'll never be the guy who takes John Cena's torch.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> So it's not even worth watching a guy if they're not potentially the next John Cena? That's just absurd logic. "Eh, I don't need to watch this Rey Mysterio match in 1997, he's not going to win the belt, brother."</p>

Well, you missed a good match, and Christian worked exclusively as a heel, so your "Christian is a bad babyface" point doesn't really matter. I agree that Christian is a short person, though. A short, yellow person.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="delv213" data-cite="delv213" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Raw was okay, sole bright spot on the show was the awesome Cesaro match with Cena. People can say Cena's an awful worker all they want, he's definitely improved from when he needed to be carried every match back from 2002-2007. Cesaro also got a huge rub from that match with Cena, not everyone can say they've manhandled Cena not being a 400 pound man.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I agree Cena/Cesaro was the highlight, but "sole bright spot"? I'll take 40 minutes of Daniel Bryan, Orton/Sheamus, and Shield/Wyatt confrontations, too.</p><p> </p><p> Although it's odd that a big schmozz like this is the lead-in to Elimination Chamber, when the lead-in to Royal Rumble was John Cena jogging and Randy Orton driving away.</p>

He's no Rellik, that's for sure. Hey, did you know what "Rellik" is spelled backwards?! I hope Willow debuts with two silent, tiny henchman from OMEGA, maybe Shannon Moore and Christian York?

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="DaMegaFish" data-cite="DaMegaFish" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>So does anyone watch OSW Review?<p> </p><p> It's a pretty good show where they started by reviewing all the WWF Hulkamania PPV's, followed by the David Arquette WCW set (Ready To Rumble, Thunder, Slamboree) and now they are starting a mini ECW phase. Most of their videos run from 90-120 minutes and I think they are a pretty funny group. They really started hitting their stride I'd say around their 1989 reviews or 1990 area, but all around they make for some good free entertainment.</p><p> </p><p> If you want to check them out, go here!</p><p> <a href="https://www.facebook.com/oswreview" rel="external nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/oswreview</a></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah, they're great. I also enjoy the Attitude Era podcast.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="milamber" data-cite="milamber" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;">NXT Review:</span></strong><p> </p><p> <strong>Dillinger vs Parker</strong> - Squash win for Parker. He cut a heelish promo to the fans blaming them for ruining the world he's trying to save. I think he's OK but most people hate his gimmick so a heel turn won't help much.</p><p> <strong>Wyatt Family vs Jordan & Louis</strong> - The Wyatts are babyfaces on NXT. Quick squash and a brief Bray promo.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Verdict:</strong> The show started off good but ended with a couple of squash matches and no main event. And they wasted 15 minutes plugging the next PPV and the new Shawn Michaels DVD.</p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> People hate the gimmick as a photo-bombing babyface, but there's no reason a twist on the character and a turn can't make Parker watchable. And the main event was the Wyatt match/promo. No main event? <img alt=":confused:" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/confused.png.d4a8e6b6eab0c67698b911fb041c0ed1.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="dpoolez" data-cite="dpoolez" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>If he kept his Viper gimmick he'd no doubt be cheered against Cena. He'd get booed against Bryan but at this rate anybody would, even Punk IMO. There was apathy against seeing him fight Big Show because nobody wanted to see that match, mark or smark.<p> </p><p> He was getting mixed reactions because he wasnt doing anything relevant outside of losing Shield matches in the start of 2013. What compelling feud did he even have before the Bryan feud? It's the same thing with Sheamus. He was getting passable reactions when he was WHC but when he began feuding with midcard acts the fans stopped caring and he barely got any reactions from what I heard.</p><p> </p><p> Fans are giving Orton enough boos from what I've seen of Raw. The reason people arent caring if they arent are because he's feuding with Big Show period and Cena for the millionth time. If he stayed feuding with guys like Bryan, Punk, etc. the fans would be more invested. IMO it's not the heel that's the problem, it's the faces that the E are putting him against.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I'd argue that the fans cheering for someone would've been preferable to that Royal Rumble match. And I think part of the problem is WWE wants you to pay money to see Orton lose, but he's on TV losing every week, so why bother? Somehow he keeps the belt and then loses another 4 matches in the next lead-up. It keeps both Orton and the faces he wrestles from looking strong.</p>

Yeah I don't really agree with this line of thinking, either. He was already getting mixed reactions earlier in the year from fans who were tired of him, he wasn't exactly a universally beloved guy, and sneak attack, opportunistic stuff is going to get heel heat unless you're Ric Flair or somebody who has gotten over by doing that shtick for years. Making him a whining coward who loses to everyone but keeps the title hasn't made the fans hot for him to lose the belt: witness the tremendous apathy they had for him in his matches with Big Show and Cena. If he'd kept his same viper character but worn a suit, I think he could've managed to get heat and make the crowd actually want to see him lose, instead of just not particularly caring.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Stennick" data-cite="Stennick" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Yeah are you kidding me? Vince would love to sue Punk's ass off, maybe win and take back a little bit of that money he's paid him over the years. None of us are qualified to even begin to speculate how his contract or any of their contracts are set up however they are clearly not regular independent contractors.<p> </p><p> Most of the time the entire point of being independent contractor is so that you're free to take whatever work you want when you want but thats not the case in the WWE. Punk can't just walk away and show up in TNA or even PWG or the NWA for that matter. So their contracts are set up in a way thats absolutely stunning that they get away with not having to consider them actual employees. </p><p> </p><p> Anyway Punk is gone, the show is better off for it and I'm able to enjoy the show just a slight bit more with him sitting at home in Chicago.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I am qualified to speculate, at least. I read the brief Raven and co.'s lawyers filed in their lawsuit against WWE that was dismissed because of standing issues. I also saw how WWE quietly settled the Brock Lesnar lawsuit before a judge made any ruling. Vince might "love" to sue (although I doubt it, the WWE has always been pretty slow to go to court, mostly because they can't control the outcome, and it's kind of a money pit when you're a big corporation), but like I said, it's doubtful whether he has a case. The way the law is now, wrestlers are independent contractors, which means that they have autonomy as to where, when, and how they wrestle matches for WWE. Obviously that is not true in reality, but just going home might not be a "breach of contract" the way it would if you're an employee. And the last thing Vince would need is somebody countersuing him for all the health insurance and tax savings WWE has made by not providing it to their wrestlers. </p><p> </p><p> And I'm not sure why Vince would even want even more of Punk's money (the money he already earned? How is he getting that in a breach of contract suit? Maybe they could find some way to pretend it's a tort?)? Wrestlers get a smaller cut of the gross than any athlete or actor outside of dinner theater. If a program with Punk could make Vince money in 6 months, do you really think he'd be too mad at Punk to bring him back in? I mean Austin went home, Christian jumped to TNA, Jesse Ventura sued Vince (and won) for royalties, Brock quit, then looked like he was going to re-sign, then WWE sued him, and all of them came back to WWE when there was money to be made.</p>