Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Sometime my champions become so popular, they fiercely protest every time I book them to lose, even when I set "protect" and "keep strong". The obvious solution is to put them in a multi-man match, and have somebody else eat the pin, since that way the champion "didn't really lose" and they aren't hurt by the loss... but that doesn't make any difference to them, they still complain even though they aren't the one taking the fall. Is the game intended to work this way? Or am I experiencing a bug? I feel as though there is no way to make my champion lose without upsetting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvargus Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <p>It's somewhat personality depended. Some workers will refuse to lose to anyone significantly lower in popularity and it can be very difficult to get them to lose.</p><p> </p><p> If that is happening there are a few considerations.</p><p> </p><p> 1) are you pushing that worker too much. If they are the most popular wrestler you have how did they get to that point? Usually this means you had them go a long period where they never lost and they now are way more over.</p><p> </p><p> 2) Can you push someone else up to catch them. Hopefully you have others who are nearly as over who can be pushed to catch up. Have your "bad" worker in minor matches and ones that shouldn't help him improve his popularity while pushing others until he stops being the most popular.</p><p> </p><p> 3) Look at personality when hiring. In my experience selfish, driven and mercenary personality types are more likely to refuse to lose to lower popularity workers. A humble worker is more likely to be wiling to lose even when they are more over. Of course, if you push a humble worker too much too soon, they can stop being humble.</p><p> </p><p> Sadly, once a worker starts refusing, it can take a while to push others in order to stop the complaints. But that is why you want to push multiple workers at a time. Getting one worker who is overwhelmingly popular is fun, but it does tend to unbalance things.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mvargus" data-cite="mvargus" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It's somewhat personality depended. Some workers will refuse to lose to anyone significantly lower in popularity and it can be very difficult to get them to lose.<p> </p><p> If that is happening there are a few considerations.</p><p> </p><p> 1) are you pushing that worker too much. If they are the most popular wrestler you have how did they get to that point? Usually this means you had them go a long period where they never lost and they now are way more over.</p><p> </p><p> 2) Can you push someone else up to catch them. Hopefully you have others who are nearly as over who can be pushed to catch up. Have your "bad" worker in minor matches and ones that shouldn't help him improve his popularity while pushing others until he stops being the most popular.</p><p> </p><p> 3) Look at personality when hiring. In my experience selfish, driven and mercenary personality types are more likely to refuse to lose to lower popularity workers. A humble worker is more likely to be wiling to lose even when they are more over. Of course, if you push a humble worker too much too soon, they can stop being humble.</p><p> </p><p> Sadly, once a worker starts refusing, it can take a while to push others in order to stop the complaints. But that is why you want to push multiple workers at a time. Getting one worker who is overwhelmingly popular is fun, but it does tend to unbalance things.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My champ behaviour is:</p><p> humble</p><p> ruthless</p><p> optimistic</p><p> manipulative</p><p> conservative</p><p> </p><p> I just had him lose a 3-way match, where he didn't take the pin, was protected AND kept strong, and he was still "furious" at the booking.</p><p> </p><p> I understand workers not wanting to lose to "lesser guys" but I feel that losing multi-man matches should not bother them so much.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CQI13 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <p>I think it deals with several factors:</p><p> </p><p> Popularity of your champion, and the other workers in the match.</p><p> Personality traits - I think there are some traits that lead to more complaints, though I've never looked too deep into it. I am pretty sure I did see a thread about it before.</p><p> </p><p> You could also upset your champion, and then give him praise and a bonus to negate the hit.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 How big was the popularity difference between him and the guy who actually won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>How big was the popularity difference between him and the guy who actually won?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> It was quite a big difference, my champ was 100 and the winner was about 77... I know he would be upset getting pinned in a 1 on 1 match, but that's not my point.</p><p> </p><p> For example Brock Lesnar might not fancy losing to Seth Rollins 1 v 1, but if it was a 3-way and Roman Reigns took the pinfall, he would have no problem with it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapa42 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <p>That's a 25% difference. Even protected and not taking the pin, that's a huge difference. Personality would factor in, but I'm not sure even a pretty positive individual would be happy with that.</p><p> </p><p> Brock is a bad example, because he seems to be okay losing to whoever so long as he's getting paid. Rather professional in that sense. </p><p> </p><p> Not a bug. Just too big of a gap. With a more reasonable gap, those booking notes will work for the most part.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GilmourGuy Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Spam1985" data-cite="Spam1985" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>It was quite a big difference, my champ was 100 and the winner was about 77... I know he would be upset getting pinned in a 1 on 1 match, but that's not my point.<p> </p><p> For example Brock Lesnar might not fancy losing to Seth Rollins 1 v 1, but if it was a 3-way and Roman Reigns took the pinfall, he would have no problem with it.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> While your example sounds true, I don't think it is applicable. With a popularity difference of almost 25 points, it would probably be more like asking Brock to lose a 3way where Ryback pins Kalisto.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsupial311 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Give em bonuses to shut em up. I call them "championship reign bonuses" to make myself feel better about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="GilmourGuy" data-cite="GilmourGuy" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>While your example sounds true, I don't think it is applicable. With a popularity difference of almost 25 points, it would probably be more like asking Brock to lose a 3way where Ryback pins Kalisto.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> That's quite a good way of putting it. The other guys were main eventers, with multiple championships in their résumé, not as popular as they should have been, but still popular.</p><p> I just can't think of a better way for a champion to lose a belt without being hurt by it. It's a tried and true method used in real life to take belts off guys whilst keeping them strong.</p><p> </p><p> If only my ex-champ knew what I had planned for him in the future, he wouldn't have been so furious lol.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapa42 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <p>I doubt the worker would look at the push of the worker - they would look at the actual popularity. </p><p> </p><p> If you must get the belt off of the champ, strip them. Injury angle, can't compete with the mandated time-frame, give up the belt. Gives them something to chase later.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvargus Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Spam1985" data-cite="Spam1985" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>That's quite a good way of putting it. The other guys were main eventers, with multiple championships in their résumé, not as popular as they should have been, but still popular.<p> I just can't think of a better way for a champion to lose a belt without being hurt by it. It's a tried and true method used in real life to take belts off guys whilst keeping them strong.</p><p> </p><p> If only my ex-champ knew what I had planned for him in the future, he wouldn't have been so furious lol.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Its the popularity that matters not the push. Workers don't like losing to someone who is significantly less popular and in this case you had someone with A* popularity seeing someone with B popularity take the win. Of course he isn't going to be happy to see that.</p><p> </p><p> There is no simple remedy other than to do what you can to avoid allowing a worker to have that big a lead in popularity.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabataged Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I have this issue now with Rocky Golden who is at 98 pop. I want him to drop the belt but he gets pissed every time. He wont even lose to Wolf who is at 90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I had Rocky lose to Andrews early in the game by using keep strong/protect. Andrews was only at 78 at the time to Rocky's 94. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabataged Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I have 5 other guys above 84 and he wont lose to any of them without being upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teh_Showtime Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The only was I can see that happening is if you aren't using keep strong/protect. I never have problems with Golden specifically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="mvargus" data-cite="mvargus" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Its the popularity that matters not the push. Workers don't like losing to someone who is significantly less popular and in this case you had someone with A* popularity seeing someone with B popularity take the win. Of course he isn't going to be happy to see that.<p> </p><p> There is no simple remedy other than to do what you can to avoid allowing a worker to have that big a lead in popularity.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You're talking about the game mechanics, I'm simply questioning them. I don't believe it should hurt a wrestler to "lose" when they aren't the one taking the fall. Especially when they are protected, kept strong and the other guy cheats to win.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabataged Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I have always used Keep Strong but maybe not Protect. I will try it again. I havent been able to touch the game in a month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapa42 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Spam1985" data-cite="Spam1985" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You're talking about the game mechanics, I'm simply questioning them. I don't believe it should hurt a wrestler to "lose" when they aren't the one taking the fall. Especially when they are protected, kept strong and the other guy cheats to win.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Its not necessarily hurting them as it won't kill their popularity or momentum too much. But that doesn't meant hey have to like it. Even if they aren't the one being pinned, even if they are made to look strong, they are still technically losing. It still shows up on the sheet as a loss. So in a realism sense, there has to be a point where most stars are going to be like "no, I'm not okay with this". </p><p> </p><p> There are also has to be a point where it does bother them in game terms, too. Otherwise, you could put a main eventer in with two low level workers, have one pin the other, and the presence of the main eventer (who is kept strong and not pinned) artificially inflates the match grade. </p><p> </p><p> Other than the most egotistical workers, you can use those notes to keep the top guy happy. A 5 or even 10 point gap is usually not a problem. But a 25 point gap is pretty huge. In most national sized promotions that would be equivalent to a main eventer losing to a midcarder. And no matter what you set the push to be, their popularity is still significantly different. </p><p> </p><p> TEW is meant to be a game with choices. If you push someone hard and get them super-over, there are consequences - they are more popular than the rest of the roster, they can get an ego, and they tend to very expensive to resign. If you want someone who is significantly more popular to lose (and again, even without taking the pin, they are technically losing) to someone much less popular, they are consequences. If you want to play without consequences, turn off some of the optional features. I believe you can turn off morale effects.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Spam1985" data-cite="Spam1985" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>You're talking about the game mechanics, I'm simply questioning them. I don't believe it should hurt a wrestler to "lose" when they aren't the one taking the fall. Especially when they are protected, kept strong and the other guy cheats to win.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Each 'pro' increases a worker's tolerance for losing. Not being the person taking the fall increases it a lot. Being protected increases it a bit more. And so forth. Whether it increases the tolerance enough to take a loss depends on their personality and how big the gap was to begin with.</p><p> </p><p> I'd point out that a lot of features are designed so that occasionally you will have to upset people or book around it. These sort of problems are pretty much the only really major issues you have as a booker, and I would urge people to take them in the spirit they're meant - as obstacles to overcome and to encourage creativity. I think a lot of people take too narrow a view of these sort of things - "grrr, I can't do what I want and I can think of a real world example where it doesn't fit so it must be unrealistic and should be changed" - and forget that if we gave easy ways around them then it's taking away what little obstacles there are. (NB: I'm not attacking you personally, this is a general comment.)</p><p> </p><p> If people are OK with losing if they're not the one taking a fall then instantly you've killed off any sort of problems with getting belts off people because you just do a multi-man match, problem solved. That's a lot of potential drama and creativity eliminated just to make it so that some player's don't get annoyed. And, obviously, the problems caused by people not wanting to drop belts has been the source of a lot of changes and alterations in wrestling history anyway, so it's not like there's a huge precedent for these sort of situations to have major impacts...</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Each 'pro' increases a worker's tolerance for losing. Not being the person taking the fall increases it a lot. Being protected increases it a bit more. And so forth. Whether it increases the tolerance enough to take a loss depends on their personality and how big the gap was to begin with.<p> </p><p> I'd point out that a lot of features are designed so that occasionally you will have to upset people or book around it. These sort of problems are pretty much the only really major issues you have as a booker, and I would urge people to take them in the spirit they're meant - as obstacles to overcome and to encourage creativity. I think a lot of people take too narrow a view of these sort of things - "grrr, I can't do what I want and I can think of a real world example where it doesn't fit so it must be unrealistic and should be changed" - and forget that if we gave easy ways around them then it's taking away what little obstacles there are. (NB: I'm not attacking you personally, this is a general comment.)</p><p> </p><p> If people are OK with losing if they're not the one taking a fall then instantly you've killed off any sort of problems with getting belts off people because you just do a multi-man match, problem solved. That's a lot of potential drama and creativity eliminated just to make it so that some player's don't get annoyed. And, obviously, the problems caused by people not wanting to drop belts has been the source of a lot of changes and alterations in wrestling history anyway, so it's not like there's a huge precedent for these sort of situations to have major impacts...</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Yeah I understand that it's a game, and a game is all about overcoming challenges. Just seemed a bit bizarre that there was just no way i could do it without making him furious despite all the protective booking I could muster. </p><p> </p><p> Oh well, the former champ got pissed off, at the end of the day, he just has to deal with it... not a huge deal. </p><p> </p><p> Obviously it's a fantastic game, there a just some aspects of it that I question. I mean, multi-man matches could be a great opportunity to give a weak challenger a sneaky fluke win, or to make a champion look super-strong by defying overwhelming odds.</p><p> </p><p> Is a multi-man match essentially treated the same as a singles match? If so, I don't see how it benefits anyone if the end result is one winner and multiple losers. Unless the winner gets extra momentum? I'm not too clear on how the game is programmed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Ryland Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Spam1985" data-cite="Spam1985" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Just seemed a bit bizarre that there was just no way i could do it without making him furious despite all the protective booking I could muster.</div></blockquote> <p> </p><p> Sometimes stars are unreasonable, that's just the way things are both in reality and the game. Maybe he's not the guy to rely on as your champ and once you do get it off him then he's damaged his career, etc, there's lots of ways to go with it.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Spam1985" data-cite="Spam1985" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Is a multi-man match essentially treated the same as a singles match?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No. The winner of the fall, loser of the fall, winning members who don't get the fall, and losing members who don't get beaten are all handled entirely differently. That ties in to what I said earlier about how different pros help create bigger tolerances. Being on the losing side and not taking the fall is more likely to get him to accept than being the person taking the pin - it just doesn't guarantee that he will accept it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spam1985 Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Adam Ryland" data-cite="Adam Ryland" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="41982" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Sometimes stars are unreasonable, that's just the way things are both in reality and the game. Maybe he's not the guy to rely on as your champ and once you do get it off him then he's damaged his career, etc, there's lots of ways to go with it.<p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> No. The winner of the fall, loser of the fall, winning members who don't get the fall, and losing members who don't get beaten are all handled entirely differently. That ties in to what I said earlier about how different pros help create bigger tolerances. Being on the losing side and not taking the fall is more likely to get him to accept than being the person taking the pin - it just doesn't guarantee that he will accept it.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Thanks for clarifying, champ. It's a very comlex game and it's not always clear how the mechanics work. I question certain things because I am a fan of wrestling and your TEW series and just occasonally, it feels as though the game is being unreasonable! But I have to say, wrestling is not an easy thing to simulate but on the whole, things work as you'd expect them to and it's generally as close to real life as any wrestling fan could hope for.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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