A UFC style wrestling promotion?

[jbutton169]

My wrestling knowledge is pretty limited to WWE but are there any UFC/shoot style promotions out there that make use of rankings, win/loss records and would it be possible to turn WWE into a UFc style promotion but retain its match style?

[Blackman]

<p>Even WWE used to make use of "rankings". I've seen some Japanese MMA-influenced promotions. Not sure what you mean by "retain its match style". It'd have to look like a legit contest or it would look ridiculous. Imagine Ellsworth's W-L record... <img alt="" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g322608/emoticons/rolleyes.png.4b097f4fbbe99ce5bcd5efbc1b773ed6.png" src="<___base_url___>/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" /></p><p> </p><p>

Look at the C-verse and its INSPIRE promotion, which makes use of MMA-style matches. Use those settings.</p>

[drcat123]

<p>Realism heavy medium key feature</p><p>

hyper realism heavy key feature heavy</p><p>

pure medium low heavy</p><p> </p><p>

It has been tested big time in tew series. It is my brawl based product. I have found brawlers don't work in all products as well as most people. I made this product just for brawlers. The bigger the brawling skill the better the worker will be in this product. It should be exactly what you want for your UFC fed.</p>

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="drcat123" data-cite="drcat123" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Realism heavy medium key feature<p> hyper realism heavy key feature heavy</p><p> pure medium low heavy</p><p> </p><p> It has been tested big time in tew series. It is my brawl based product. I have found brawlers don't work in all products as well as most people. I made this product just for brawlers. The bigger the brawling skill the better the worker will be in this product. It should be exactly what you want for your UFC fed.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Actually, a strict UFC, or rather, MMA, style product will have Hyper Realism as Key Feature (nothing lower), and Pure at Medium (nothing higher, nothing lower). "Realism" in TEW context is realism for professional wrestling, not MMA. Also, strictly speaking, a UFC/MMA product shouldn't have a Pure higher than Medium. Pure is actually more like actual grappling (BJJ, Judo, Amateur Wrestling, etc.). MMA has elements of actual grappling, but it's not primarily grappling - or it could be shoot Pancrase, which does include striking, but much more restrained version. Therefore, having too little or too much (below or above Medium) makes no sense for a pure MMA/UFC product.</p><p> </p><p> Of course, if the goal is not to do a pure UFC/MMA product, there is no reason one cannot include other elements (within reason), but from a strict standpoint of what the UFC represents, it's basically this:</p><p> </p><p> Hyper Realism: Key Feature (nothing more, nothing less)</p><p> Pure: Medium (Nothing more, nothing less)</p>

[ampulator]

As for making the WWE more like the UFC, that's going to be very difficult. WWE is popularity based, and any strict representation of the UFC/MMA is a performanced-based promotion.

[drcat123]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Actually, a strict UFC, or rather, MMA, style product will have Hyper Realism as Key Feature (nothing lower), and Pure at Medium (nothing higher, nothing lower). "Realism" in TEW context is realism for professional wrestling, not MMA. Also, strictly speaking, a UFC/MMA product shouldn't have a Pure higher than Medium. Pure is actually more like actual grappling (BJJ, Judo, Amateur Wrestling, etc.). MMA has elements of actual grappling, but it's not primarily grappling - or it could be shoot Pancrase, which does include striking, but much more restrained version. Therefore, having too little or too much (below or above Medium) makes no sense for a pure MMA/UFC product.<p> </p><p> Of course, if the goal is not to do a pure UFC/MMA product, there is no reason one cannot include other elements (within reason), but from a strict standpoint of what the UFC represents, it's basically this:</p><p> </p><p> Hyper Realism: Key Feature (nothing more, nothing less)</p><p> Pure: Medium (Nothing more, nothing less)</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> </p><p> You are going off what you think would be good. I said I have tested my product big time. I know if you put a 100 brawling vs 100 brawling in my product it will do great. I'm not saying your idea won't work too. I'm saying I found having a good balanced product will always do better than a easy product. I spend over 100 hrs to find a good sex appeal product. Since there was not a great one. My 3 products have been tested for a long time. I have played them and I stand by them. I thank you for your input to give the TC more options.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>As for making the WWE more like the UFC, that's going to be very difficult. WWE is popularity based, and any strict representation of the UFC/MMA is a performanced-based promotion.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You could do it later I guess. Once you get your people over then just switch back to there old product. Besides that you have a point.</p>

[ampulator]

<p>My product suggest isn't "good". It isn't "bad". But it is quite close representing what MMA/UFC is. Now, if your point is what a product simulating MMA but also should max-min match quality, that's not what I'm talking about. But if you are talking what a product should like to represent close to MMA/UFC as possible, then strictly speaking, it's Hyper Realism at Key Feature and Pure at Medium.</p><p> </p><p>

Also, going from a WWE-style product to UFC-style product, but then suggesting he go back, makes no sense in the context of his question. He wants to go from WWE style to UFC style.</p><p> </p><p>

As for keeping the "match style", he technically can still do some WWE matches in a UFC-style product. It just won't go over very well with the crowd depending on the match type.</p>

[Makhai]

<p>I think the UFC is more of a Cult Hyper Realism product honestly. Nobodies doing 40min Nick Bockwinkle matches, so no pure wrasslin shit, the UFC product is more about jaw-dropping KOs, and Just Bleed heads. ACTUAL MMA? Yeah that might have more realism but nobody in the UFC is like "we've gotta slow the fights down that's good for business." It happens sometimes, but that's not the INTENDED product. </p><p> </p><p>

so something like </p><p> </p><p>

Hyper Realism Key, Cult medium, Realism low, Pure none, Mainstream low, with daredevil medium. Also the top rope and spinal moves should be banned. Optimally you'd have it 100% intensity like 10-20% danger.</p>

[drcat123]

Honestly as far as today Ufc I don't like it. I liked ultimate fighting championship better for sure. You really saw good fighters and mix of styles too. Today is just more entertaining events. If they wanted to put rules to it. Pride was awesome. Anyway back on topic. The main problem with ufc is once upon a time there was a MMA skill. It made perfect sense too. Bret hart and royce gracie having same brawling does not make sense. Gracie never wrestled and hart never did mma. So the skill should be brought back for sure.

[Makhai]

Honestly as far as today Ufc I don't like it. I liked ultimate fighting championship better for sure. You really saw good fighters and mix of styles too. Today is just more entertaining events. If they wanted to put rules to it. Pride was awesome. Anyway back on topic. The main problem with ufc is once upon a time there was a MMA skill. It made perfect sense too. Bret hart and royce gracie having same brawling does not make sense. Gracie never wrestled and hart never did mma. So the skill should be brought back for sure.

 

I agree with the crux of this the problem though is working a fight is extremely hard. There's just a live-and-die nature to a real fight, an intensity that can't be replicated believably. And being a great MMA fighter doesn't equate to pro wrestling really at all. They're completely different things, made painfully obvious by AJ Styles and Frank Trigg at No Surrender 2008 or the entire EVOLVE promotion. The only ones who have ever been successful going back and forth are guys like Josh Barnett who are Catch-As-Catch-Can guys. The MMA stat is WAY to binary, and doesn't really do the thing it's intended to do. I actually really like where the game is on it. It's a square-peg round hole problem.

[drcat123]

I agree with the crux of this the problem though is working a fight is extremely hard. There's just a live-and-die nature to a real fight, an intensity that can't be replicated believably. And being a great MMA fighter doesn't equate to pro wrestling really at all. They're completely different things, made painfully obvious by AJ Styles and Frank Trigg at No Surrender 2008 or the entire EVOLVE promotion. The only ones who have ever been successful going back and forth are guys like Josh Barnett who are Catch-As-Catch-Can guys. The MMA stat is WAY to binary, and doesn't really do the thing it's intended to do.

 

So you remember the MMA stat? It might not of been as good as it could of been but stats made more sense. MMA people would have terrible stats but good MMA stat. Instead of like it is now. Josh Barnet was good of course. I do think shamrock, the beast, and dr death were good too. Shamrock could of been main eventer if he was around today. Since strikers are big today .

[Makhai]

So you remember the MMA stat? It might not of been as good as it could of been but stats made more sense. MMA people would have terrible stats but good MMA stat. Instead of like it is now. Josh Barnet was good of course. I do think shamrock, the beast, and dr death were good too. Shamrock could of been main eventer if he was around today. Since strikers are big today .

 

Shamrock just learned how to do the WWE style. I hated his "lion's den" matches with Steve Blackman and Owen Hart. I love Dan Severn, he had some good matches with like Tarzan Goto and the like on the indies. But by the time he got to the WWF he was just a decent worker who looked like someone from Reno 911. Steve Williams(and Bruiser Brody) were just exceptional pro wrestling brawlers with shooter auras. None of those guys are MMA fighters who rolled out of bed and worked a match in a wrestling fed and did a 90+ grade. You could do that shit with the MMA stat in TEWs past.

 

As for Shamrock in the ME... He was for a hot second. Good matches with Foley and The Rock I liked him a bunch until he got saddled with Bossman... his character just never evolved and it couldn't because the "Dangerous" crazy person angle was one-dimensional and he wasn't charismatic enough to cover it(like Foley did with a similar gimmick) Also he was only wrestling because the UFC was a tire fire that couldn't pay him when he left, Pride was just getting ready to open and the UFC was being sold to the Ferrtitas so I think his heart was always in atlantis.

[ampulator]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Makhai" data-cite="Makhai" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think the UFC is more of a Cult Hyper Realism product honestly.</div></blockquote> Very little Cult. Cult, has more to do with brawling and hardcore. There is no Hardcore in the UFC. <blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Makhai" data-cite="Makhai" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Nobodies doing 40min Nick Bockwinkle matches, so no pure wrasslin shit, the UFC product is more about jaw-dropping KOs, and Just Bleed heads.</div></blockquote> Fighters that can't defensively grapple are screwed in the UFC and MMA. In fact, a good amount of MMA fighters at the lower regional level tend to be grapplers primarily first, which is where the the UFC recruit their talent. Also by regulation ,<p> Most fights are 15 to 25 minutes anyway. 40 minute matches are moot. </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Makhai" data-cite="Makhai" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div> ACTUAL MMA? Yeah that might have more realism but nobody in the UFC is like "we've gotta slow the fights down that's good for business."</div></blockquote> MMA in USA, and therefore, the UFC, is regulated by government regulations. Therefore, there is very little variation because the UFC has been known to stick to rules because of history of bans. <p> </p><p> The primary difference between the UFC and other MMA is quality of talent. There is very little difference in product because of standardized rules.</p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Makhai" data-cite="Makhai" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> so something like </p><p> </p><p> Hyper Realism Key, Cult medium, Realism low, Pure none, Mainstream low, with daredevil medium. Also the top rope and spinal moves should be banned. Optimally you'd have it 100% intensity like 10-20% danger.</p></div></blockquote>Daredevil is not part of the UFC product or any MMA product. Daredevil is more like Jeff Hardy/Mick Foley, diving off of high places.<p> </p><p> And Pure is definitely Medium. There is a good amount of grappling in MMA. Nothing lower for any product accurately representing MMA or the UFC. </p><p> </p><p> However, also nothing higher. More than Medium basically implies MMA has technical wonders of grappling as a rule, which it does not. Defensively grappling happens all the time in MMA or the UFC, but rarely are there Jacare/Maia level of grappling.</p>

[Makhai]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><strong>Very little Cult. Cult, has more to do with brawling and hardcore. There is no Hardcore in the UFC. Fighters that can't defensively grapple are screwed in the UFC and MMA. In fact, a good amount of MMA fighters at the lower regional level tend to be grapplers primarily first, which is where the the UFC recruit their talent. Also by regulation</strong></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> No that's hardcore. Cult is just tailoring your product to 18-34 audience and the UFC and by extention MMA ONLY appeals to that demographic this is a company that opened PPVs with people getting one-shot to "Face The Pain." The UFCs product is about drunken brawling in it's purest form. Now having all of the best fighters evolves it quite a bit, but that's still what they market to people. They market Sell-Smith... not Mia-Jacare. </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> <strong>Daredevil is not part of the UFC product or any MMA product. Daredevil is more like Jeff Hardy/Mick Foley, diving off of high places.</strong></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> "jaw-dropping moments of not-entirely believable super-athletic, dangerous or flashy sequences designed to wow fans." </p><p> </p><p> I know wrestling has basically equated this to mean "high-spot" but it really just means working hard for "HOLY SHIT!" moments of which the typical UFC card has at least a few. It stays medium in my opinion because the UFC-like wrestling promotion can't be a total spot fest. But it does need to build to massive, dangerous KO or Submission spots or it's not going to work.</p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="ampulator" data-cite="ampulator" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div><p> <strong>And Pure is definitely Medium. There is a good amount of grappling in MMA. Nothing lower for any product accurately representing MMA or the UFC. </strong></p><p> </p><p> <strong>However, also nothing higher. More than Medium basically implies MMA has technical wonders of grappling as a rule, which it does not. Defensively grappling happens all the time in MMA or the UFC, but rarely are there Jacare/Maia level of grappling.</strong></p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Pure wrestling, is not what you think it is. Nobody in the UFC is going to do a hammerlock transition into a flip up and then pose for heel heat. Nobodies going to put someone in a rear chin lock for 20mins because the crowd is too hot. These are staples of "wrasslin" and that's what Pure is designed to emulate. Think AWA, or Mid-South at least in this context.</p>

[drcat123]

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Makhai" data-cite="Makhai" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="43552" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>No that's hardcore. Cult is just tailoring your product to 18-34 audience and the UFC and by extention MMA ONLY appeals to that demographic this is a company that opened PPVs with people getting one-shot to "Face The Pain." The UFCs product is about drunken brawling in it's purest form. Now having all of the best fighters evolves it quite a bit, but that's still what they market to people. They market Sell-Smith... not Mia-Jacare. <p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> "jaw-dropping moments of not-entirely believable super-athletic, dangerous or flashy sequences designed to wow fans." </p><p> </p><p> I know wrestling has basically equated this to mean "high-spot" but it really just means working hard for "HOLY SHIT!" moments of which the typical UFC card has at least a few. It stays medium in my opinion because the UFC-like wrestling promotion can't be a total spot fest. But it does need to build to massive, dangerous KO or Submission spots or it's not going to work.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Pure wrestling, is not what you think it is. Nobody in the UFC is going to do a hammerlock transition into a flip up and then pose for heel heat. Nobodies going to put someone in a rear chin lock for 20mins because the crowd is too hot. These are staples of "wrasslin" and that's what Pure is designed to emulate. Think AWA, or Mid-South at least in this context.</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Think ultimate fighting championship. I loved watching the gracies hold a lock for a long time. Of course I like real wrestling. Which there is not alot of real wrestling anymore today. MMA is a show compare to ultimate fighting championships. Wwe is a circus compare to classic wrestling. I suggested my product and I stand by it. I know it would work because I used it in my 83 game. Where all there is are brawlers basically. I got 80s with 40 over people. Which is hard to pull off with bad brawlers.</p>

[Derek B]

It's odd to see so much argument over this when it's very clear that MMA is directly linked to Hyper Realism, as mentioned explicitly by the game.

 

"This element refers to having a strong MMA influence in matches; lots of hard kicks and strikes, with submission holds presented as being ultra-effective"

 

Any MMA-styled product is obviously going to have this as it's most important element, which will automatically lean a product towards being rated more on performance than popularity. This in turn will allow for workers with low popularity and high levels of talent to be able to do well with their match ratings, which is handy.

 

Makhal, you are completely wrong with your interpretation of Daredevil. The whole point of that is a product that tends to cater to the Spot Monkeys, Psychopaths and the kinds of workers who generally will put unrealistic elements of staged fighting into a match in order to get a pop. It has nothing to do with what would be the key of an MMA fight, unless someone is literally jumping off the top of an MMA cage or attempting huracanranas on people on a once a match kind of basis. It just should absolutely not be a part of an MMA style product.

 

On the performance side of things, elements that could work with MMA to build a true MMA style product are most likely to be Pure (allowing for particularly technical leaning workers) or Realism (for covering the kinds of things that would likely work in a real fight, like punching) on the work rate side of things, but for MMA I could limit those as they take you further from a proper MMA and more towards other more specific disciplines of fighting.

 

For the on-screen presentation of things you can potentially use various other elements to reasonable effect. Cult can work to a degree in terms of appealing to a specific kind of rowdy crowd, but the lack or particular storylines would iikely hamper it's effectiveness. Risque would make sense to some degree for presenting people as being real fighters and having the freedom to say what they want, which is often very non-PG. If you still want to portray people as being people beyond being fighters you could also go the Mainstream route, but you would eventually run into a similar storyline issue that may not make sense...

 

Lastly, you would have to set an angle ratio that works for the various hype videos, pre match hype and celebrations that would form the majority of what fans would expect with MMA. With matches being potentially very short you have a lot of leeway here and I would go with something around the 70% level. UFC in particular has a LOT of hype leading up to fights and if you are booking a company similar to that I would ensure you have enough time to use a lot of segments between matches.

 

So ultimately, if I were going to make a MMA product I would go with something like....

 

KEY: Hyper Realism

HIGH:

MEDIUM: Realism, Risque

Match Ratio: 70%

 

This creates a Match Intensity of at least 90% with freedom for Match Danger to be at any level (I'd go at least 30% as it's still dangerous if you're pretending to be MMA). It makes Hardcore and Aerial less effective (logical for MMA) and makes your fans expect clean decisive finishes while also meaning that gimmicks don't matter. That sounds like MMA to me.

 

That said... it's still a wrestling game and MMA is never entirely going to work in here. And since the old MMA stat was mentioned, no-one ever really knew what that did and as such it was a horrible, useless stat. That's why it was removed in the first place, as it did so little and confused to many that it was pointless to have.

[ampulator]

No that's hardcore. Cult is just tailoring your product to 18-34 audience and the UFC and by extention MMA ONLY appeals to that demographic this is a company that opened PPVs with people getting one-shot to "Face The Pain." The UFCs product is about drunken brawling in it's purest form. Now having all of the best fighters evolves it quite a bit, but that's still what they market to people. They market Sell-Smith... not Mia-Jacare.

Actually that's false. It's both Hardcore AND Cult. If you look at the game, Cult favors Hardcore and Brawling, just like Hardcore does. If you bring up Cult from at least Medium, Hardcore skill is favored (as is brawling, but that's irrelevant to the disagreement) like Hardcore is.

 

 

 

"jaw-dropping moments of not-entirely believable super-athletic, dangerous or flashy sequences designed to wow fans."

 

I know wrestling has basically equated this to mean "high-spot" but it really just means working hard for "HOLY SHIT!" moments of which the typical UFC card has at least a few. It stays medium in my opinion because the UFC-like wrestling promotion can't be a total spot fest. But it does need to build to massive, dangerous KO or Submission spots or it's not going to work.

But remember, Daredevil focused on Aerial. There's very little "Aerial". Also, remember, "not-entirely believable". MMA is entirely believable. Also, Most MMA and UFC fights aren't flashy. Dangerous? Yes. Exciting? 99%, sure. Flashy? Mostly not. KOs are brutal, but they aren't always necessarily flashy.

 

Pure wrestling, is not what you think it is. Nobody in the UFC is going to do a hammerlock transition into a flip up and then pose for heel heat. Nobodies going to put someone in a rear chin lock for 20mins because the crowd is too hot. These are staples of "wrasslin" and that's what Pure is designed to emulate. Think AWA, or Mid-South at least in this context.

That's actually Realism. Realism is AWA or Mid-South. Pure is ACTUAL wrestling, or actual grappling. Again, Pure is more Amateur Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Freestyle Wrestling, and Greco Roman Wrestling.

 

 

Oh, and I agree mostly Derek.

 

To outline, here's what I see a closest approximation to what UFC and MMA should be...

 

Hyper Realism: Key Feature Only

Pure: Medium Only

Realism: None to Key Feature

Traditional: None to Medium

Daredevil, Modern, Lucha Libre, Hardcore: None to Low

Mainstream, Risque, Comedy, Cult: None to Very Low

 

1 vs. 1: 100%

Match Ratio: 90%

Face/Heel Divide: None

Match Intensity: 100%

Match Danger: 40%

 

And depending on the MMA product...

 

Spinal-impact moves not allowed

High Risk moves not allowed

Weight Split: Yes/No

 

Basically, any product style that includes Aerial or Hardcore disqualifies it from being part of an important part of the product.