lazorbeak

Well I think the "decade" comment had to be hyperbole, right? I mean the brand split was only a decade ago, and T-Lo was what, the 4th, 5th Smackdown authority figure? And he was off the show for how long while Vickie/Edge were in charge? I count that he was GM for 3 years the first run, and is closing in on 3 years for his second run. It's certainly longer than anybody else has held the position. As far as not doing anything new, sure the character hasn't really evolved, but he's a supporting character who doesn't really carry ongoing programs, so I'm not sure that's a big issue.

Kudos for moving this off the WWE thread. You guys know Will Smith's career didn't end in 1997, right? I mean while I doubt most people would put him on a "greatest living actors" list, he's actually developed into a pretty solid actor in the past decade, as evidenced by his two best actor oscar nominations (for Ali and Pursuit of Happiness). I mean yes, no question he was just a "movie star" when Wild Wild West came out, but to imply that he's not a "real" actor is ignoring the fact that he's shown tremendous improvement and has grown into a very good actor, which is particularly respectable when you consider he'd still be a multi-millionaire even if he never improved as an actor: just look at Harrison Ford. I really don't buy the "oh film acting is so easy" argument, really, having done some film and significantly more stage acting. You can "cheat" stage acting, giving maybe a handful of genuine moments of human connection interspersed over 2 hours where you're moving from place to place and delivering lines because you're supposed to- there's a lot of big broad body movements to make sure everyone can hear and see you, and it can be very disconnected and unnatural. The camera doesn't let you get away with being that lazy: you have to have real human reactions in every scene (if it's a good production) and it can be incredibly draining emotionally to constantly hit those highs and lows- it's why a guy like Daniel Day Lewis took an extended break from the business.

Yeah that might be going too far to the other side. He certainly wasn't terrible, but he was extremely stiff, couldn't sell or tell more than one story in the ring, and his inability to talk really hurt once the streak was done. As far as movie stuff goes, I think Cena does have some potential, and if he wanted to be an actor I'm sure he could get work as Mark Wahlberg's steroided out brother or something, but for now he'd rather work as a wrestler so all we've seen of his acting has been in third rate WWE-produced stuff. And Hogan is absolutely a failed actor: he was one of the biggest wrestlers in the world at the height of its popularity (twice!) and still ended up getting parts in stuff like Three Ninjas: High Noon at Mega Mountain. Granted at least some of that was that he was so typecast as "that big blonde wrestler" that it was hard to take him seriously in Predator or whatever, but he's definitely a "failed actor." He made a real push to focus on his acting career in the mid-90's, and it absolutely did not work.

You don't see any advantage? Cena is the guy that's on the road 7 days a week and he beats a guy that hasn't wrestled in years but is still more over than him. The result is: Cena is more over. If they do want to turn Cena heel it would give him a great reason to work against Punk or Orton or whoever- that the crowd booed him on the biggest stage on the biggest win of his career. Not saying that's a good idea either, but I don't really understand the "no benefit" idea. To me the benefit is that the guy that's part of your regular roster looks better than the nostalgia guy, so at least younger fans won't get this idea that the Attitude era was this golden age; some smarks will still think that anyway, but I think it's better not to encourage them. Besides, I don't think there's the same value to Rock coming back whether he wins or loses- he's an attraction now, and the whole reason people want to see him wrestle is they haven't seen it in years. If he works another show next year it won't have the same appeal no matter what. And I'm not sure what you mean by "right out of the gate?" This feud has been going on for a year!

I have to wonder where you get the idea that Rock has this out of control ego to the point that you're comparing him to Warrior's delusions of grandeur. Unlike Warrior, Rocky worked for WWE for what, 9 years without ever not being under contract because of silly disputes? And almost half of that time he was getting movie work, so it's not as if he would've been totally unjustified in making himself a star. Instead, he's always been willing to put over talent, from Mankind to the Hurricane to Evolution; in fact, as a top babyface he lost more than any other top babyface in decades, possibly ever, and even when he came back and turned heel as a "hollywood" sellout, he proceeded to put over Goldberg and never tried to politic himself into a title he didn't deserve because he wasn't on the road full-time (compare with Hogan, Hollywood, circa 1998). It's fair to dislike The Rock for getting a better job and making more money where he doesn't have to take bumps at house shows 3 nights a week, but I guess that doesn't explain why you think he's some kind of egomaniac. I mean has there ever been a "Rock refused to job" type story on any dirtsheet, ever?, the way there is with Hogan, Undertaker, HBK, Triple H, Austin, etc.? I'm not saying that would be definitive proof but it's a "where there's smoke, there's fire," situation, and right now you're just assuming there's a fire when everything is not only not smoky, it's minty fresh.

I know you're being facetious and all, and it's moot anyway because Cena won't be seen as the babyface for that night at least, but how many other times in WWE history has the top babyface not gone over in the main event of Wrestlemania? I count 3 in Wrestlemania history, and ironically enough, all involve Cena or Rock, unless you count Hogan putting over Warrior. As far as what others are saying, no matter what they do I'm not sure how a no-contest is anything but the worst possible result ever for a match that's been built up to for a year.

Gotta say I have no interest in Triple H vs. Taker at Wrestlemania again, especially considering we had two straight years of the (superior) HBK/Undertaker feud just before this. That said, this match is almost guaranteed to become the greatest Hell in a Cell match involving the Undertaker in Wrestlemania history, assuming it can top that classic that was Taker/Bossman from Wrestlemania 15.

I'm sad we never got a proper Michaels/Morrison feud as I always felt like they could bring out the best in one another, and heel Morrison was basically the Heart Break Kid gimmick circa 1992. Yes Morrison was/is spottier in the ring and on the mic, but try not to improve when you're working with Shawn Michaels.

I finally got caught up on some of my comics that I've been lagging behind on for the past few months. Avengers has really become a dull, messy grind. I read two different books and each had full page "talking media head" layouts, specifically attacking Glenn Beck-type commentators. Which was a daring and bold idea... when Frank Miller did it 20 years ago. Also, is picking on Fox News even topical any more? And wouldn't they love Captain America and attack anyone who even questioned his patriotism for any reason, ever? Here Ben Gleck is a vocal critic of Captain America for some reason. Also Bendis brought back the Vision and treated it as though the characters haven't seen Vision in years, ignoring the fact that a teenager with Vision's brain has been running around in Young Avengers since forever. On the positive side, I recently went back and read the first two years of Brubaker's "Catwoman" run from around 2002, and it's been great, and I say that as someone who's never found Catwoman particularly interesting. In new comics, I'm really enjoying Mark Waid's Daredevil; it's a lot of fun and I definitely recommend that first trade to anyone with any interest in the character.

How can you say he's outworking the roster when he's taken basically an entire year off? I think I'm just tired of 'Taker doing the same shtick. I don't even want a heel to take out Undertaker to make himself a "name" the way Orton tried to do or the way Miz might, I'd want a guy to just be built up as an Undertaker-killer and promise to end Undertaker's streak so we never have to hear about it ever again.

Am I the only one that thinks the idea of a 45 year old dude who looks his age shouldn't be treated as an unstoppable force of nature? I don't see why it's not a better story to have a guy like Wade Barrett just destroy the Undertaker for two months straight only to have Undertaker somehow pull out a win at WM rather than "I respect you, brother," for what, the 5th straight year?

Hey folks I thought I'd post an update to say I am still working on this. I've got a pretty solid list of characters in excel and I'm gradually porting them into CBH. So far my demo runs with Spider-Man have been fun, although since he's practically on his own out there in my data he's been overwhelmed by villains a couple of times. For those who are either unfamiliar with or could use a refresher on the Bronze Age, here's what several major characters were going through at the time: Spider-Man is a college student dealing with the death of Gwen Stacy and the descent into madness of his friend Harry. He has recently begun dating Mary Jane Watson as she has developed beyond her "party girl" persona. A new villain called The Jackal has recently been plotting something behind the scenes. The Avengers: The team has recently announced a line-up of Captain America, Iron Man, Wasp, Yellowjacket, The Beast, Vision, and Scarlet Witch. They have recently dealt with dimensional travel to the world of the Squadron Supreme (basically the DC Universe JLA), and in the 19th century they have recently caused Kang the Conqueror to disappear from existence (although he can and probably will come back). A rare moment in time when over half the roster is married to one another. The X-Men: the all-new, all-different X-Men have just formed and Thunderbird has just died. The current line-up is Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus and Banshee. Mutants are still rare and are hated and feared. Jean Grey has apparently died and been re-born as the mysterious "Phoenix." There's plenty of relatively new heroes on the scene, including Ghost Rider, Tigra, Hellcat, and Moon Knight. Characters that are about to debut but don't have any powers yet may be listed as civilians including Captain Marvel's friend Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel) and high school student Richard Rider (Nova). Their heroic identities will be set as alternates. Right now I have 57 names in the "heroes" column of my spreadsheet. I also have 141 villains before considering any generic goons, lackey organizations, or wandering dinosaurs. There's no guarantee that exactly those numbers will appear, especially if I find too many characters near the same level serving the same purpose (there may be a limit on low-level martial arts-based villains). Also unlike the default CBH data, a fair number of villains start the game either dead, in jail, or otherwise unavailable. I've done probably too much research into the era to try to get a feel for characters, powers, and histories, but my goal is to make something balanced and fun.

It wouldn't be Christmas without turning an idle debate about Chavo Guerrero's relative quality into a cryptic and outlandish statement about the imminent collapse of wrestling forever! And as much as I like the occasional lucha, the idea that WWE "mishandled" Psichosis or Super Crazy is pretty baffling: short of building a division for them, what are you going to do with tiny guys that can't talk and look less tough than the folks at the local Home Depot? And while Juvi could've been something more, he's sabotaged himself his entire career. Oh and can we add Mr. Aguila/Essa Rios to the list of cruisers light years ahead of Chavo?

Where's the part about confusing every wrestler with "Chris" in their name in his philosophy? Seriously though Ross certainly had his favorites (STONE COLD!), but the key is he wasn't negative even when talking about heels. Calling a bad guy "reprehensible" or "heinous" is actually pretty complimentary, and he was constantly putting over how big and scary a guy like Umaga or A-Train or Kane appeared. The biggest problem with heel Cole is that he's being outright negative towards babyfaces and very often he's the only one talking. If you listen to Jesse the Body or Bobby the Brain, these guys would reluctantly talk about how the babyface had a good look and were undeniably talented but just needed to get smarter except in circumstances where they're outright negative in order to lead into a feud. Plus, they had babyface announcers disagreeing with them. But really the difference between a great announcer like JR and a decent announcer like Cole is that JR is able to bring an element of emotional truth to his commentary- he makes you feel the way he does because he seems to believe so strongly in what he's saying. Cole's emotional connection tends to be limited to energetic excitement, which is far more shallow and less cathartic for the audience. It's why JR is still the voice everyone hears in their head when they envision a big moment- his voice reflects the emotion we want the moment to express.

Actually it can and has been disputed. Punk started outselling Cena's merchandise in October.

Yeah how dare he use the performer's name! I agree with what he said though, both that Kane was a solid worker (he's a lot more limited now), and that the mask isn't something that's very interesting from a storytelling standpoint. Smarks are always waxing nostalgic for reunions, comebacks, callbacks to 8 year old storylines, etc.- remember how outraged people were that Christian wasn't immediately inserted into a main event Hardyz/E&C feud 8 years after TLC? But the truth is regressive storytelling is the definition of preaching to the choir- it's saying "hey, remember this? Weren't these the good old days???" It's WCW parading out everyone WWF had under contract in 1988 no matter how many drugs they were on or how little they could do because by golly, people know who they are! It can get a cheap pop out of old fans but it loses its luster if it's anything more than a Kevin Nash royal rumble appearance. There's people around today that don't even remember masked Kane or remember it dimly- people that have followed WWE's product from when they were kids in the mid 2000's to today. If you don't get the nostalgia, you need a story that's compelling enough to work without it, or the act gets old quicker than Hogan's last WWE run. Anyway that's why it's perfectly justified to be a little skeptical of bringing back old ideas. It certainly can work, and I'd love it if it meant something new for the character that has been running short on character identity for the past few years, but storytelling should go forward, not backward. As far as the Punk stuff, people in this very forum were very positive about that angle when it started, because it was good. And while it was also similar to an old ROH angle, it was exciting because it wasn't a nostalgia act for that old angle but something exciting that hadn't been done in WWE in years.

Good points, dj. I said basically the same thing about strength conversion on the last page. The problem with thinking "well I can just set the whole scale up differently" is that you don't control base seed numbers. It also creates issues when your characters can't avoid taking piddling amounts of damage every turn because their reactions stat is a 300 or whatever but they're taking damage from a character that the game defines as significantly below average. Also for player characters, those stats will be incredibly cheap to improve to levels over and above other character levels. Hive, as far as the Xtinction/Deadpool issue, the short version is you need to do a better job of finding characters whose stats should line up, the way I already illustrated with strength on the last page. Xtinction's 770 agility means he starts out with engrained "super agility" to raise the stat past 750. That's Nightcrawler/Beast/Spider-Man type agility. Characters like Deadpool, Cap, Daredevil, Black Widow, etc., in the "Remarkable" or "Incredible" agility columns would be between 600 and 750. Again, since the game sets the rule that 750 is the cut-off without the "super agility" power, things aren't going to play as they should when a relatively agile character ends up with 300 agility, since the game defines that as human level average, and since the pistols being fired at him have a seed value in the 600's.

Right, and I am offering an alternative by suggesting that maybe you should adapt your mod to the game you are trying to incorporate it into. But whatever, don't think I'm telling you you can't do it your way. If you find some way to reverse engineer data that plays the way it's supposed to, more power to you.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hive" data-cite="Hive" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I see your points, but the MRPG is still the best source of fairly balanced stats I can think of. And unlike wrestling, I can't just watch some matches on youtube to determine what kind of skills a guy has... and I have to work off <em>something</em>. So while I agree that this solution is not perfect, I still think it makes for a good basis that can undergo tests and scrutiny and then be tweaked as necessary. I currently can't think of a better way, personally. But I'd love to be enlightened.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Right, which is why I promoted it as a resource. But if you don't convert it to Adam's game, it doesn't particularly work. If you look at a typical thug in the MRPG, they have Good fighting and typical for all other stats- a 100 in reactions, a 60 in agility, a 60 in strength, a 60 in endurance. If you put that into Adam's data, you get someone who Aunt May could punch out. Sandy Spokane, an unknown waitress/actress hopeful, has a 90 in strength, and Blind Delphi has a 180. </p><p> </p><p> Basically, looking at the default data, "typical" in the Marvel RPG translates to around 200-275 or so, while "good" is 276-375 or so. "Excellent" is generally around 376-500, where you see guys like Big Kev and Tower Block- people who are on the high side of human, but not superhuman. 600 is the general cut-off point in general in CBH for superhuman abilities, with pretty much no non-powered human having a stat that high other than reasoning. I got all this from looking at the data in the game. In the Marvel RPG, that cut-off point is Remarkable (30), so adjustments have to be made to pretty much all stats to fit them on a scale.</p><p> </p><p> So if you'd "love to be enlightened," just measure the CBH data against the Marvel RPG model and see how things need to be adjusted. Find characters that seem like they're somewhat parallel in ability and see what numbers Adam gave them. Then use that standard for the next character and so on.</p>

Okay, but in the Marvel RPG, agility handles dodging range attacks (and shooting), while fighting covers evading melee attacks. Since they are different skills, they would be represented by different stats. As for why they're there, it's to represent different attack options against a given character. You can't bear hug the Hulk, you can't shoot Spider-Man with a gun, and you can't punch Captain America- because Hulk, Spidey, and Cap would all have great strength, agility, and reactions, respectively. But that doesn't mean you can't hit them with another style of combat. Basically it's not one stat in order to deepen combat strategies. Yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense- use the data given to you, and from that it's pretty clear that just adding a zero just won't work from a modding standpoint- the MRPG data is a useful tool, not a panacea. You still have to do some work translating the numbers to CBH's scale. The thing is, 1000 is the absolute top of the curve in CBH, Unearthly is not top of the curve in the Marvel RPG- Shift X, Y, and Class 1000 are used as placeholders between "top humanoid abilities" and the powers of Mephisto in his realm or various other gods- again on a curve, since the damage classes were weighted on a curve. And Adam's data re-enforces that by not giving an "unearthly" strength guy like Captain Awesome a 1000 for strength but around a 900.

<p>Here's my thoughts:</p><p> </p><p> Reactions is basically the defensive half of the fighting stat more than it has to do with agility.</p><p> </p><p> Reasoning is logical thought but it's used in-game for understanding technology and inventing stuff- it's about half reason, half technological in CBH. Since reasoning in CBH also involves puzzle solving, there should be some element of intuition involved too.</p><p> </p><p> Psyche is used for a combination of willpower and magic effects in the MRPG. </p><p> </p><p> Also I mentioned it a page or two but a simple x100 scale doesn't work at all, since the MRPG was built on a steeper curve- a basic level thug is a 6 or a 10 in strength, but needs around a 250 in strength to be only average. On the other hand, Unearthly strength tends to represent only about a 900.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Ockbald" data-cite="Ockbald" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>He also faced bigger threats. He did both! Just not on his book. His book has a "super spy" feeling that only Brubaker can do. I'm a big fan of his current on going actually.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Not in his own series though, which was my point. The Avengers have done a lot of heavy lifting lately, but Cap generally doesn't deal with big-time threats on his own. And the game makes a distinction between team reputation and player reputation. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Ockbald" data-cite="Ockbald" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I think for Cap, this means he is the middle of the road popularity wise. What do you think?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> I think he fits in around Level 7 "renowned," which is where the default data puts characters like Combat Wombat and Immortal Swordsman.</p>

Have you read much in the way of Cap or Iron Man comics? Since the relaunch Cap has faced off with Red Skull, Sinn, Crossbones, Dr. Faustus, Arnim Zola, his evil clone from the 1950's... hardly a "who's who" of 'world-ending threats.' Now the Avengers could be iconic level (I'd still say that's probably too high) and they would draw major threats on team missions to simulate the Avengers actually taking on world level threats, but Cap and Iron Man on their own are almost never working on that level. And arguing that Captain America and Thanos should be in the same popularity level is arguing that in terms of gameplay, Cap should be close to equal footing- and history has shown that's just not true. He's not even a threat, one on one, against Thanos or any other heavy hitter. Just from an AI perspective, "iconic" feels totally off. He won't even get involved in moderate level threats that generally take up most of his solo series, and gets pummeled every time he tries to take on Thanos or Galactus or whoever. The short version is a Cap around level 7-8 can still be a big impact player without being a completely ineffective paper tiger. Also if you are playing as Cap starting at level 8 will give you two big bonuses for increasing in popularity that will at least give you a chance to compete with bigger threats. I just don't see any evidence in Adam's data, Cap's history, or anything else that treats him as the premiere hero of the MU. Yup, definitely. Doom should be a character that seems like a big hurdle for lower tiers to beat with his high reasoning and broad powers, but he's not some unstoppable force and isn't treated as a true top tier threat- he's obviously the Fantastic Four's biggest recurring enemy, but that's about it. Honestly I'd hesitate to put any but the top 2-3 active heroes in the MU at "iconic" level because again, in Adam's data, there's only 2 active heroes in the universe at that level- one is a Superman pastiche (arguably both are to some extent), and the other is a Dr. Manhattan type powerhouse that is able to travel between dimensions and through time. Only Thor and maybe Silver Surfer even approach that level of power outside of cosmic entities like the Celestials.

<p>You guys are over-analyzing what it means to be a heel. A heel is meant to put shine on a babyface by drawing heat. All that other stuff is secondary. Cena <em>was </em>a heel when he put a shine on Punk this year, and most likely he will be a heel again at Wrestlemania against the Rock, considering the standard PPV ticket buying crowd and the fact that it's in Rock's hometown. </p><p> </p><p> Saying he needs to "turn heel" ignores that if he went out there and did a more aggressive character, the same crowd booing him now would probably start cheering for him- kind of like they did during his original heel run. It would also probably take several months of heel-ish acts before kids realized he was a bad guy now and they should stop cheering for him unless he turned at a show like the Rumble or Wrestlemania, since the majority of WWE's audience doesn't watch every show.</p><p> </p><p> But as is, there's nothing wrong with Cena's character right now.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Payne" data-cite="Payne" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="32612" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>I'm looking at the Classic RPG, and that's really helpful, but I'm just curious about the conversion. <p> </p><p> For example: I'm looking at Batman:</p><p> </p><p> Reason: Incredible. Converted would be: 31-32. CBH would be 310-320. </p><p> </p><p> To me, this is just above average for a human? When someone is lauded as "The World's Greatest Detective", how would that fit in the CBH world? How many people, in your opinion, would have better Reasoning than Batman?</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> The website has all the modules that came with the game that explain this stuff more in depth but the short version is:</p><p> </p><p> Reason has nothing to do with "deduction" in the Marvel RPG. Reason is the ability to tinker and invent, the ability to learn and understand complex or alien technology, etc. Intuition on the other hand is what determines a hero's ability to notice a clue, get the drop on someone, etc. Hence Batman isn't nearly the inventor Reed Richards or Lex Luthor is, but he's also got better intuition than them. As a human though, his intuition is not as good as somebody like Daredevil who has super senses or Silver Surfer who has cosmic awareness.</p><p> </p><p> Also, as others have pointed out, the game isn't meant to scale on a 1:1 ratio. There's a certain exponential curve in the Marvel RPG as far as the numbers go. Unearthly strength is a 100 on the Marvel RPG scale, but probably around a 900 on the CBH scale. Likewise a typical hired goon in the MRPG would have around a 6/100 for strength, but in Adam's game that same goon (or group of goons) would have around 200-250 in strength. That's just for strength, too- the scale has to be adjusted for other skills and certain skills in CBH don't have a real equivalent. But it does provide a really good reference tool as it measures who the game considers to be in what skill class.</p>