VTial

That's the often told story but really if you look at the talent gap, it's less about the divisions being weak as many fans just underrate talent. Ellenberger is a perfect example of someone people omitted even when he was originally set up to fight Fitch. In reverse, Story got overhyped simply for trying to challenge Fitch. Lots of these events happening but very many fans still overlooking these things and often looking too far out of the UFC. The truth is the gap with GSP was plugged up by Serra. The gap with Anderson was nearly plugged up by a wrestler with poor sub defense in Sonnen. The gap in HW was plugged up by Cain dominating Brock. The gap in LW was plugged up by underdog Frankie Edgar edging out BJ. The gap in FW was plugged up first by Brown and then later on Aldo. The gap in BW was plugged up with whoever beats Miguel Torres nowadays. The gap in LHW was plugged up by Jon Jones going through two perceived as dominant and in their prime champs in Rampage and Shogun. (Setting aside how fickle fans ignore both Page and Shogun's dominance pre-Jones) I think MW is just the riskiest division. It's by far the most well rounded division who's greatest weakness is of having top ranked fighters not having any definitive strength until Sonnen, Silva and Belfort. Leben would have come close if he polished up his striking. This holds true for grapplers like Maia too. In MW, Maia like Akiyama can improve their striking with less worry because there's no true problematic striker except for Belfort and Silva. Sure Sonnen can out-technique you a couple of times and Leben can hit a hail mary and Marquardt can unleash a kick from nowhere but not alot of truly world class athletes with a primary strength except for Silva. Then there's Silva of course. In other divisions, you can gauge your opponent based on how you rose through the rankings and how difficult it is. In MW, you have decent success like Stann and you immediately get fed to the wolves. The worse part about it is that you're lucky to get Sonnen. Often times they just rush you to Silva who is the worst of the champions to be rushed to. There's just no reward. In contrast: LW: BJ has cardio issues and the ones who beat BJ like Edgar has size issues. Even Gray came close if he didn't choke. Same thing with Florian. Those are guys that have multiple styles but at least the level of competition prepares you for the champ. WW: Fitch is GSP 2. Even better, thanks to Fitch being a bad draw, you can instantly get GSP, lost to GSP and then build yourself up for a rematch by fighting against the Fitches and the Kos. LHW: Painful division clearly but guess what? Look at how far Forrest and Jardine got from simply taking on tough fights. High risk, high name value. FW/BW: Weaker divisions HW: Dangerous division but look at the competition below Mir. Most of those guys can be overrated and you can easily get in the top 10s. MW is by far the worst division ever since Rich dominated. Everyone knew he was one of the weaker champions even for his time but then when Silva came, before you get to Silva, you have to have insane TDD and Sub Defense and then when you get to Silva - BAM! You're supposed to face a world class striker. How does anyone really expect to survive that divison? Even Belfort with all his talent is scared to fight anyone but Silva and Sonnen literally broke the mold of well rounded guys edging each other out until the winner gets Silva.

Silva not being a draw really isn't his problem. MWs have a tough time getting credibility. It didn't help that Silva sliced through Rich like Cyborg against Carano and Rich moved up and had a less than stellar career losing to a perceived as weak and demotivated Forrest on top of struggling against a nearly retired Liddell. LHW had Couture and Liddell and even though they were past their prime anyway, Couture helped pad Machida and Liddell helped pad Shogun. The same can be said for the other divisions. Faber helped pad Brown and Kenny helped pad Aldo. Hughes helped pad GSP and GSP's dominance against elite wrestlers helped pad the AKA wrestlers in Fitch and Koscheck and in turn fighters avoiding them to get to the title fight against GSP helped make WW looked stronger and LW was the BJ Penn show until he helped pad Edgar. Take Rich away from Silva and his biggest fights in the UFC are Leben, Sonnen, Forrest and Hendo. Leben was by far the most exciting fight Silva had even edging past Rich but Leben can never have a consistent streak which made him always look weaker than the top rankers. (Even Leben vs. Belfort would be a toss up considering "short notice Leben" just submitted Akiyama and Belfort would truly have to test his hands yet because of Leben's losses to guys like Stann and Bisping he's underrated.) Forrest and Hendo disappointed. On top of that, Silva versus many ground fighters were disappointing. Plus, Okami, Marquardt and Hendo were disappointing not just because of Silva but because of how those three seemingly gave away their chances especially Hendo. Cheat or not, Sonnen is the only fighter (except Leben who legitimately gave his chin away in the 1st Silva fight) who calls out Silva without flip flopping when the actual fighting starts to happen and his streak is the most legitimate among Silva challengers even edging out Rich's streak as a champion. There is no other MW currently who has gone through Okami, Marquardt, Miller and Filho except for Sonnen. That's just an uncanny resume. Sonnen might as well be tied with Silva as the #1 fighter stylistically because both guys excel at their disciplines and the losses Sonnen had was through aggression where as the wins Silva had against the grapplers were through taking advantage of their lack of wrestling and committing to a boring fight. The first fight truly was a showcase between the two best fighters in the division one opting to be exciting while the other opted to stay as a champion and even if you take Sonnen's trash talking out of the equation, there's no better candidate right now for Silva because of all of the disappointments of the other MWs whether it's Bisping fighting like an effective Kalib Starnes and yet not getting to Machida level and struggling against Wandy, whether it's Leben losing yet to another fight because he fights so randomly, whether it's Munoz' wrestling not translating well, whether it's Paul Harris' Filho like moments, whether it's Maia's inability to engage with Anderson, whether it's Okami's mental disappointment at not being able to mimic Sonnen, whether it's Marquardt's worse than Sonnen's elevated testosterone problems... every one of these guys from a performance perspective disappointed way more than Sonnen and on top of this, Sonnen showed improved BJJ positioning against Stann. The facts are just there. Sonnen is the most deserving candidate. His trash talking just made the fight more exciting. Everything else and it's because the other MW contenders had more disappointing in-Octagon performances which was why Stann was tasked with facing Sonnen in the first place because he was the second most exciting fighter to face Silva post-Okami. This and this is the only reason why Silva is a poorer draw. It has nothing to do with the way he treats his fans. It has nothing to do with his dominance. Jon Jones brings the same elements to his fights at LHW and he's considered a draw. Silva's problems are how his opponent comes in with stupid gameplans (or gasses himself out as with the case with Lutter when he finally took down Silva). If you book enough of those fights, it always makes the winner less exciting to watch no matter how you sell him as the most dominant fighter in the world. There is one exception though. If Forrest had struggled less against Silva then Anderson's draw would have been a lot more consistent right after that. That was as close as a LHW vs. MW title fight that Anderson had and everyone was expecting the intelligent Forrest to come and instead the Griffin that fought simply made everyone remember how stupid almost everyone of Anderson's opponents had been whether it was Rich trying MT on him or whatever Cote was trying to do or how Maia blew his surprise Chonan-like submission on Sonnen while trying to charge Anderson and every other multiple incidents that Anderson's opponents have done to make MW look weaker. Even Okami's disappointing loss helps boost Anderson's popularity currently because people miss watching Anderson beating opponents with semi-decent gameplans and fight IQ.

...especially when it's based around achievements. I think what's more notable in the P4P debate is the intangibles these two guys bring. Forget weight classes. Aldo is stylistically built for Edgar. He has enough power in his kicks that he doesn't have to abuse them and open himself for the take down. Edgar is stylistically built to eliminate Aldo in the later rounds. The guy learns round for round. It's like he can gameplan a more dangerous plan the more he loses. This is what's going to come down to the wire if these two ever faces. Aldo silenced the LW dropping down issue with his win over Florian. (A guy who has never had trouble/losses against a smaller fighter except Aldo especially in grappling.) Edgar silenced his lack of power by showing a grit and determination Florian never showed in his championship fights. He's basically drawing up the reality of what Florian could have done to capitalize on his championship bouts (Sure Kenny isn't as fast but man oh man...the way Edgar fights back from 10-8 rounds...) If I were the UFC, I'd put this bout immediately before some of the contenders upset the champions. This would be a great co-main event for Sonnen/Silva 2 and they could easily make both LW and FW more popular with a bout like this and fix both the legitimacy of Aldo and Edgar. (Aldo loses to Edgar and he's the BJ of FW. Edgar loses to Aldo and FW is no slouch while LW proves size isn't the factor alone.)

In pro-wrestling, it's not. It's like how silly the exploding car angle was in the past. Even stupid Paul London was rumored for getting fired over that because he was laughing. (Never really bothered to verify if it was true.) Subjects of death in pro-wrestling? Puh-lease. That thing bored itself even way before the casket match was introduced. I really don't want to play semantics. Of course random pops happen but if you judge the feud overall, Punk said more things to HHH other than the wife trashing he mentioned which was often aimed at when Punk was talking to Stephanie anyway. Anytime Punk really tried to do that on HHH was pure after thought after all the meat of the conversations were over and Punk seals it with the classic "whatever exchange you think you've won over me, it will never replace the facts of your legacy." Punk essentially said things that HHH could only sidestep and repeat the talking points of what Cena already tried to pull over Punk. It's like a politician being forced to back around and deflect the questions. It doesn't matter how any random speech pops happen, it was not comfortable and it made you watch. What Punk said to Vince though, considering how overdone the Vince vs. Austin feud was and how recent the Punk speech was, it was the average vs. Vince angle. Some upstart superstar says something bad about Vince. Vince grimaces, does some sort of deal... same old same old. People weren't watching it because there were two guys talking. The ones who don't regularly watch the WWE tune in because Punk recently said something controversial and he just regurgitated that in every Vince encounter they had. On top of that, the whole anti-bullying campaign was something only the smarks would get besides the rare mark who knew what the topic was about. If you simply watched sports entertainment for sports entertainment, Punk said things that the average regular WWE watcher could understand to HHH while the best thing they got from Punk/Vince besides the "vs. the authoritarian" angle is that Vince could have easily been a billionaire and chose to be a millionaire because Punk doesn't have his face on an ice cream cone (whatever that merchandise was) unlike Cena. This doesn't even take into account that Punk's speech was famous not because of Vince or Cena which everyone has heard of before but because of all the little bits he threw in that they later turned into a joke like the manner Laurenitis fired superstars that is now just a bunch of interview talking points that no one is even mentioning in favor of treating it like another regular "oh the writers/HHH/booking didn't do things properly which is why another trending wrestler's hype is derailed once again but once again let's pretend it's something they ruined that is at the same time getting other wrestlers over, blah blah blah." What it really boils down to is that the WWE has messed this up even as Punk was famous for making that speech and majority of us fans have short term memory so we bring up some form "since x PPV" "since x feud" two bit made up theory that never really tries to tell the whole story and then we moan, we rejoice and we moan again and the WWE strings us all for fools.

HHH's bad but sometimes differing opinions are really a problem. I'm guilty of this myself as proven by the previous posts but now I think it's time to stretch back some of the so called facts by others. Actually Punk said harsher things to HHH. The "reasonable" retort by HHH is actually what helped fuel Punk more. They weren't reasonable. They were bland. So bland that it didn't gain much pops or boos. You could almost hear a pin drop everytime Punk stopped talking and HHH started rambling. Some of the best Punk vs. Cena talks were also where HHH was involved. Vince vs. Punk didn't work because of anything Vince did. It was due to the pseudokayfabe effect following the proximity to Punk's famous speech. In fact, without that speech, Vince's reaction nearly killed it against Punk. His character is actually the strongest incarnation it has been. Punk always had a bad history with power based wrestlers. (See Batista feud) He then became more of a lackey who had trouble putting Rey Mysterio away when he had a faction. Even nowadays, ADR's steel pipe has always been reserved for monster characters. Even HHH can lose with one well placed weapon. Punk had to go through a table and then get hit and then set up his move and then get hit again before losing. The reality is, the more people focus on Punk, the more you will miss out on where HHH is the negative factor. Not the feud in particular or the quality of the storylines or who wins/who loses. Those aren't perfect but Punk has been the beneficiary of some of the better angles even in his debut. Feuding with HHH just dampens overness all the time because he has a special X-pac type of heat that he delivers on his feud rivals instead of himself and yet he continues to insist that he be the focus of his feuds.

To add to what the Black Phenom had stated already, the Vince feud was different in the sense that Vince (not being a wrestler) has a different effect both on the audience and in future feuds. Plus duplicating feud storylines back to back is obviously going to have some negative effects especially if they are a continuation of one overall story. Vince can only disappear. HHH tends to stretch out feuds and then mess up the overness of wrestlers. Even for modern WWE standards, Punk vs. HHH had above average quality in terms of generating interest. Just look back on the past pages of threads here where everyone was on the bandwagon and only a few of us were being devil's advocates about Punk moving away from both Cena and the title. This isn't to say that the material had nothing to do with it but the way it works with HHH related feuds is that the post-feud events are what messes with the wrestlers' overness and not the actual quality of the feuds especially if Hunter will allow you to get one over him. (Which Punk shouldn't have had but his mic material far surpassed Hunter's and he actually ended up having that.) Primarily this happens because HHH will always be a major focus, like Cena. When you have wrestlers that always take up screen time but aren't monsters or invincible heroes (Cena doesn't really count mid-feud), they always ruin the overness of the rival unless the feud ends with a championship and a constant ME scene without HHH. The focus is often what ruins it even without blatantly terrible material. Punk for example could have easily slowly gotten the spotlight even if the storylines and materials were exactly the same. They just had to put Punk more and HHH less and he would have gotten more over. Sure the lines had to be modified a bit but all you have to really do is highlight Punk's position more and it works. This is also what primarily differentiates Vince from HHH when they're doing the same type of storylines. Vince can't be in a lot of places. He's not a wrestler. He needs a thug for hire. All these things HHH doesn't really need AND on top of this it's not just him wanting more attention for himself, he fits in so many types of storylines and he likes long segments so even if he doesn't get over: Punk loses because every scene or topic where HHH is involved, Punk gets exposed less and less. (being mentioned doesn't count) It's just simple mathematics that the WWE has gone away from in the past years. The more trending a guy is, the more times you show him regardless of his official "overness" perception. Don't wait it out or sabotage it or you'll create a negative sum game where the guy has to rebuild his overness and his feud rivals also inherit their mediocre overness at the ME level.

This is the problem often times with mediocre booking though, the guys that are getting hot don't exactly retain what they have. JBL wasn't exactly as over as his character with the APA. He certainly was more reknowned because he was part of the main event but the gimmick didn't exactly build from his previous characters. In contrast to the greats of the past up to HBK (The Rock and Stone Cold broke through new gimmicks) the problem with breaking gimmicks is that you have to be so over in order for that to help you long term. In this sense, only HHH is truly having a legacy type of overness. Miz's value has since been broken. He's barely on the mic anymore. Not only that, his legacy-type overness is connected to Riley and Morrison and that has been set aside. You wouldn't even buy that as a character this was the same guy who could cause John Cena problems or go toe to toe with Punk at the mic. The same goes for R Truth. He's hot but what made him sizzle was his capability to be at the mic as a singles performer. Now he's just a slightly more over K-Kwik. You could say he's more violent but so was Kofi Kingston when he was smashing up cars. That didn't last long. Alberto del Rio has it worse. He just bleeds JBL heat. Right now and until the WWE gets tired of him, he will be in the Main Event but he is worse than Miz at having that moment. The guy is almost building up to a new gimmick breaker in order to have his moment. Compare this to the Miz who at least had his mic moments as a champion. I'm not saying the ADR look would no longer be there but ADR right now is different from ADR when he debut and to turn him into this current guy, they had to kill the character's previous overness. They are bound to do that all over again once they realize ADR isn't exactly making Punk or Cena look good and Punk/Cena aren't the gimmicks to make ADR really be a main event championship contender that the fans would respect. If you look at it from those perspectives, the only one that really is getting hotter is HHH as his actions build up from his previous gimmick's overness and if you stop the feud today, the perception of HHH would be more over in a memorable way. Punk? He has to rebuild. Cena? He's always Cena but they made him regress back into the old tired cliche of a character. Miz and R-Truth? Without this feud, they have to go back to being mid-carders unless they get pushed heavily as Main Eventers. Their characters don't work as well as upper mid-tiers. ADR? He'll still be the same guy they were trying to push only they did it more properly now so he at least gains a tad bit of heat but certainly not on any memorable heel level.

It's the "smirk". Mic for mic, I agree. There's a lot of better feuds for Punk. Unfortunately (and this applies to the success of Evolution too), the most guaranteed way to get a long mic segment would be against Cena and HHH. Not just a long mic segment but a long match segment that often heads up to the main event. The reason HHH is at least among the mid tier of quality mic feuds for Punk is that HHH being made to shut up hasn't happened in a long time so when Punk says something that just causes HHH to smirk, it rubs off on Punk and makes him to be the guy the authority figure "gone wild" can't touch and cements his status as one of the top guys. In some ways, this has always been how HHH has "helped" get people over. The Batista and Orton feuds were also based on guys not letting HHH run the show anymore. The difference was that Orton was horrible at the mic and Batista...well he got injured and he dropped the smart Batista act.

They don't really have to give him trouble as your original premise was more about how boring Silva fights. Anderson has many fights where his opponents didn't give him trouble but people didn't complain about the outcome. Munoz, like Leben, is not about bringing some top talent fight to Anderson. What Munoz brings is his style. Many say his wrestling hasn't translated well to MMA but his sub wrestling as proven against Maia is one of a kind. It's just not been revealed yet. (Kind of like Leben's wrestling and sub tenacity, people seem to downrate him there except Leben is more at fault for that.) For me, Stann vs. Sonnen is a give me. I said it before and I'll say it again, people who come back from drug suspensions have a history of not doing too well. Even if Stann beats up Sonnen, it's not an indication against Anderson or even the Chael that gnped Silva. What I think Stann can bring is exactly what I said previously: Reverse Okami. A fight where you expect it to be more boring and then suddenly Stann fights closer to the expectations we have of Okami. Now that would be a satisfying fight regardless of how Anderson outclasses Stann.

Yeah but at this point it's not about whether Silva would defeat them. People knew Silva for the most part would beat Okami, what made the fight relevant was that Okami might do something interesting. What made the fight disgusting was that we couldn't even say Chael was wrong about Okami because Okami didn't even show a different Okami. Munoz and Stann strongly have a chance of being a reverse Okami. Maybe fans will be tired but I'm strongly guessing post-fight people would appreciate it for being more surprising than they realized. Maybe not as much as Sonnen vs. Anderson but there's no reason for it to go the way of Okami vs. Anderson. Stann might even bring what we all expected Okami to bring and win or lose, you know that will make people more curious about Anderson's next fight. As far as GSP goes, I'd rather stick to the unlikelihood of the fight until GSP gains enough natural weight to not make WW anymore. In my opinion, GSP not moving up is a way of caution. Not proof that GSP at MW would be different. The guy has such a diverse skill set that the only reason people never talked of him moving up before was because few relevant people did it in the UFC. Penn practically made that thing relevant. We'll have to see though how Koscheck does but I think Kos would do really well, win or lose. At least enough to generate a discussion about more WWs moving up. Even Couture against Sylvia didn't make Couture that much relevant in the HW scene especially from a GOAT standpoint. (Not saying he should definitely usurp Fedor but Tim's loss to Fedor added more to Fedor's legacy at HW than Couture's win over Timmy. That is how much value moving up gave anyone until BJ made a scene about it against GSP.)

Fans tend to underrate these things. The UFC is really great at booking things so I wouldn't worry about it. Unlike other orgs, UFC was able to stretch out the HW picture with Tim Sylvia until they literally had to bring back Randy. Pre-Chael, there was no fight left for Anderson. Right now there are many fights that people won't get excited about but there are also many fights that can also bring back that excitement like Chael did. Setting aside the super fight, I think Palhares is definitely interesting. He's just a big question mark but he really should have gotten the title shot pre-Maia. Maia was heading to Jacare potential until UFC made the mistake of putting Maia against both Anderson and Nate and Nate didn't pay off. Had Palhares fought Anderson first, I thought it would have made the Maia fight more forgivable. Stann is also interesting. It wasn't so long ago that people were considering Cote and I see Stann as a more well rounded Cote who have less chance of getting a fluke injury against Anderson. It won't excite the division pre-fight but post-fight it would make fans be more interested in another Anderson match-up outside of Sonnen. At least that's just my guess but really all of these are guesses. I think Munoz is the most exciting fight Anderson has though. Not in the level of Chael but combining pre- and post- fight result, I think Munoz changes the landscape of Anderson's invincibility. Chael surprised everybody and I'm not saying Munoz will mimic Chael but Munoz is alot like Leben. When Anderson obliterated Leben, it brought many question marks and people were undecided as to how long Anderson can keep up his game. It was this very undecided factor that milked Couture vs. Sylvia, Shields vs. GSP and Jones vs. Shogun. The big question for Munoz is if, like Leben, he has a hard time of getting to the title picture or not. After that, we still have to see if Koscheck stays at MW. If UFC pretty much shoves Fitch to Anderson. If Jardine at MW gets resigned. Then there's Jacare. Frankly GSP has a lot more problems than Anderson because the UFC is trying to push away Fitch and that results in a gridlock that forces them to push Dan Hardy. So far with Anderson, it's mostly been UFC trying to delete the list of fighters much in the same way they were doing to GSP when the Trigg fight happen and we all saw the influx of new fighters that arrived after that.

<p>It kind of is. A fight can not be an exact clone but just as Maia was a slightly improved Leites against Anderson, Okami was a slightly improved Maia.</p><p> </p><p> If Okami was being fed to Anderson, this is understandable. Unlike previous opponents though, Okami trained with Chael. He didn't just have the blueprint, as Chael said, he had years to train for this night. </p><p> </p><p> The good news is that this will probably be Anderson's last fight that ends this way. Okami was part of a last line of extinct contenders that would give Anderson this style and if Okami had not resurrected his style training with Team Quest, they wouldn't have given him this fight. If Anderson dominates in the future, it will look more and more like Anderson vs. Belfort/Leben/Cote unless Bisping or Dan Miller goes on a sudden winning streak.</p>

Not really. People tend to forget pre-fight, Chael Sonnen wasn't meant to be a threat to Anderson. (Hype-wise, if Chael didn't talk, he had a lower perceived chance than Leites) There may not be many MWs that could/would adopt the Sonnen style of fighting but I can guarantee you that there are "many perceived not ready" candidates (with better sub defense than Sonnen) that Silva wouldn't psych out. Okami is just not one of them. He has always been a better Gleison Tibau that's why it took so long for the rematch and he got it mostly from his improvement after training with Chael and in a manner that didn't really help him against Anderson and it was clear if Okami was going to defeat Anderson, it had to be based on him completely fighting differently from the way he does and he cannot for one minute stay as the same fighter. The fight outcome really hurts Okami. If he's not going to be cut, I think UFC might even encourage him to change weights. Actually I think if GSP/Silva doesn't happen soon, there are many guys that are going to be hopping divisions. Forrest's stock has been completely obliterated and he's one Rampage loss from changing the LHW scene. Losing Nate and now Okami losing means Jake Shields might even be encouraged to move to MW to set up a number one contender fight against Silva depending on how his eventual fight with Fitch happens and if Fitch even stays relevant. Let's not get even started about Schaub. Frankly I haven't seen a UFC event happen like this in quite a while. Not only does it have major long term implications but everyone doesn't seem to be talking about it as much and even the major forums appear to be taking the fight results for granted relative to past UFCs.

Thanks for clarifying the behind the scene details. I think reach and saturation becomes murky in the international scenes because of so much difference in just the presentation of the UFC alone. Some places may offer the UFC for free and things like the difference between free and PPV becomes almost the same to casual viewers and only people who want to research and keep up with the stuff really nail down which is which. There's also the internet factor not just in terms of advertising but the brand built up from things like streaming and piracy. Certain people that may be closer to straight up fight consumers (the viewers who mostly don't care about hype, TUF, maybe not even watch or have the Countdown shows) may "become more curious" as to figure out why something like Bellator is being spoken as being "On Spike" now and any mma organization that has a closer theme to the UFC will get all that additional curiosity prestige from just the design footprint the UFC left behind. It may not be a golden goose situation but an opportunistic organization like Bellator who has shown better budget controls than most other budding mma promotions could easily leapfrog faster on Spike than on HDNet not just in expanding their reach but in getting closer to the consciousness of the more common consumer who only treats certain shows as "must watch regularly" shows if they become a separate alternative brand with enough of the same things as another famous brand but for some reason or another is not a clone of the famous brand. It's just easier to be viewed as another top brand this way compared to being seen as "it's free MMA on TV" or "I'm anti-UFC and this delivers the more exciting product" or "Wow, this place has more MMA shows". It's just not the same even after reach and saturation has been considered. The only term I can equate that to is overall name value. It's just something like how certain popular videogame companies built themselves. Like Capcom is not the only fighting game company but ask many people what they associate with fighting games and Capcom more often than not comes up even though in recent times Street Fighter has been close to their only marquee fighting series. In contrast, something like Namco who has both Soul Calibur and Tekken may not even generate the image of a fighting game company. Some may even still stick them to the company that made Pac-man. That's just what Spike has become. They could easily become the Capcom brand of MMA if they partner with the right organizations like Bellator.

HDNet is good but as far as international branding goes, which has more name value right now if you're an audience? HDNet is rich just like CBS has it's audience pull but as far as this image that people across the globe have seen, Spike is pretty out there. HDNet is like HBO or some other promotions where you see it in boxing events but it doesn't really have anything special. You just see it as "ok, this is the name right now that can show/sponsor/host this event." In contrast, Spike is like TNT for the NBA. Even if there's ESPN and Fox Sports, the Spike logo and all that generates a different familiar feel to MMA audiences who mostly have seen the UFC. You can't deny that it's smaller but you want to build a MMA brand that will have the pull of the UFC, Spike is a great entry point just not in the US. Also, this delusion that MMA has arrived, wow... after all the Brazil talks and all the failures of more exposed promotions like EliteXC and Affliction...some guys are still blind to the fact that MMA hasn't still arrived? That Bellator IS still a budding MMA promotion? Wow...I mean, Sonnen's a troll but this is where he was right in an interview. Sometimes you live so close to the trees, you miss the forest. Geez...how spoiled can some elitist MMA fans be to realize that even the UFC right now is not quite there yet and all the above and beyond stuff they are doing has been crucial to keeping MMA alive and not just a company trying to expand on some quest to stay on top. No, he hasn't gotten caught in submissions. He has been caught in one type of submission by mostly reknowned fighters and he is in a camp that hasn't been as successful as other camps and even in the past, their elite fighters from Hendo to Randy had submission weaknesses and Randy never even raised his BJJ game to compete with the elite until he left Team Quest and Hendo over the years have been put in situations where he avoided the ground game more and more. Most of that can be attributed to age but you watch Hendo's earlier fights and his peak sub defense is almost the same as today. It's not something that you saw improve quite like other fighters who have been in other camps and I know these guys cross train and Team Quest has a large branch but you have to look at someone like Anderson with Blackhouse and how his submission changed to really see the difference that in terms of potential Sonnen has shown pretty great sub defense especially in his latest UFC run and most of the sub losses came from the limelight of fighters in more reknowned camps or very elite backgrounds like Maia and Horn. Oh and yeah, I have it for Stann too but I think people who have been caught on some sort of substance abuse have always came back noticeably weaker whether they are guilty or not guilty of taking them. Sean Sherk mostly giving up on his wrestling comes to mind. He didn't get that back until a couple of fights later and suddenly he wasn't even top 2 considering his domination as a top 1 fighter. Even with the influx of newer fighters, that's a sudden dip.

If Spike can nail Bellator though, I think they have the better made for TV MMA deal. Far better than their pro-wrestling equivalent in TNA. UFC has always been a show built on prestige and lately they haven't even narrowed those down where free/low prestige fights are more exciting and marquee fights being more boring. Spike really should be celebrating instead. They have become the go to network for budding MMA promotions where even bigger networks have failed while pushing down StrikeForce/EliteXC. As far as Sonnen, I think one thing everyone needs to keep in mind is that Team Quest is not an elite camp. It's a great camp but Sonnen and Okami are literally what made them relevant again. There was even an entire UFC event (can't remember which one) where almost every fight involved a Team Quest fighter and most of the fighters lost horribly to low level UFC fighters. Sonnen has also mentioned in an interview that he has mental problems with submissions and if you look at his fights, he has mental lapses in BJJ defense. It's not like you can put the first submission hold on him and he taps. Even among Maia's list of UFC fights, he had to pull the most unorthodox submission attempt on Sonnen and this was something he had never done before and after that fight and not only does Sonnen have a history of tapping to one specific BJJ move, he Fitched out a guillotine from Nate Marquardt (something that only Jon Fitch has done on a high level until Sonnen and Sonnen arguably was being submitted by the stronger fighter). Those are not symptoms of a fighter with bad BJJ defense.

It's not something that's lost in translation. There are jokes and there are words that simply mean "this guy is saying it like this so don't bring that up". From the get go up to now, Hive had one pattern with my original post: Evidence A: Evidence B: Evidence C: I've been patient with Hive. When he said he didn't understand my point, I answered it and cleared any doubt that I might be targeting him. dj you even wrote something about Bret and I replied to you. When Hive replied back with the unhelpful and vague "I still don't understand your point at all or why you decided to address me." - I took that as him not desiring to understand it and left it alone by saying nevermind. ...but I can only take so much. Hive kept insisting on this idea that I'm targeting him and now he's putting words in my mouth and throwing sarcastic jokes that paint me as saying something that I didn't say. Not only that, it painted me as trying to insinuate that Bret should never be criticized. That's why I came down on him. I watch my words but sometimes when you have posters insinuating insulting things that can easily get past a mod radar, you just have to throw down an offensive word so that the guy understands I'm not going to let his accusations stand just because he can phrase it in a way that won't get him modded.

This is just low. **** off Hive. If you don't understand what I said then act like you don't understand and just shove it or make sure you know what's being said before you babble on further. I don't take kindly to people who put words in my mouth. Especially when I couldn't have been any more clearer in my previous posts by saying I'm not saying Bret should be treated as a perfect human being.

All valid points but since we are pretty much just talking about Punk vs. Nash in a single promo, I don't think we need to analyze the situation in-depth and just lay it out in as simple a depiction as possible which is where I was going with the post. However before I respond, I think it's important to emphasize that when I was posting my explanation, I already said I was adding to dj's post so I was being a bit rushed with talking over the past events. What dj said should still be the strongest point as to why Nash looked off. The rest of these tidbits just add to that. The jack knife for example. I don't think our perception differs as much as the WWE has so often painted the big man as being a different and superior creature from most other wrestlers and when you have someone like Nash who has a history of backstabbing his opponents - something as straight forward as guards just makes the character weaker after he was sold as someone that could still just flat out lay out Punk. Remember when Punk won over Cena, it wasn't like he was broken down wrestler who just went through Hell in a Cell. Nash still eliminated a slightly fresh Punk. How fresh Punk was is debatable but they depicted Nash as not just an old legend but a dominating force. I think over time, it seems pretty clear that it's heading away from the title regardless of whether Punk retains the belt or not. WWE can always flip flop on their feuds but the fact is, the premise of Punk returning was to give a voice of credibility to wrestling and even though it may seem logical for Punk to pay attention to Nash right now, it only does because the title doesn't have that much of a prestige anymore. We've seen champions vs. champions, MITBs and Cena hog that thing up. If the title had prestige, which the original Punk returning pretended it to have, then this feud totally destroys whatever little face in Punk's tweener gimmick. By going after Nash-HHH, Punk pretty much made it clear without any sliver of a doubt that he's in it for himself. It's not up in the air anymore. The same will go for when he pursues the belt at a later date it will just be Punk being in it for himself and wanting the title. (If he does indeed do that because my guess is this storyline is heading into a different direction that's faction related not title belt related.) Either way, Nash adds nothing to what Punk was talking about previously. Sure maybe Punk can "reference" some Kliq things and Punk would still be over but the potential for his character is long gone and everything Nash and Punk do from here on out will only stabilize Punk's overness, not add to the potential that garnered Punk this fast boost in pops that got both Punk, Cena and the title more over than they ever were in the past few years; and Nash's lack of pops is just one of the initial signs of that downgrade shift in the interest for this feud.

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Teh_Showtime" data-cite="Teh_Showtime" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>How else are you supposed to show character growth? The guy is not the same character he was last year. His gimmick for the last few years has been being a manipulative leader pretty much. His promo style doesn't change, but his tone and content sure has.</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> You just described one way of showing character growth. </p><p> </p><p> Growth is not the issue. How the growth was handled is the whole point. </p><p> </p><p> That growth combined with how long the previous storyline/gimmick change/feud transition adds up to the total growth perception of the character's current credibility and the facts are Punk has barely gotten over as a main eventer and then he gets nailed by Nash and now Nash the big man is supposed to be old while Punk is supposed to be over and unbeatable? They barely sold him as an unbeatable fighting machine that needs to be completely blindsided, why should Nash fear Punk especially when Nash has played the scheming weakling before and not relied on generic guards.</p><p> </p><p> Add that and the dialogues and Nash's mumbling/seemingly lack of energy compared to when he was rushing to powerbomb Punk and that really doesn't put either of these guys over. Punk was just hot so it didn't hurt his pops much but Nash didn't really say/do anything for him to get any loud pops at any point in his promo.</p>

<p>I understand that but the thing with Bret here is that people are not just bringing up facts and saying something bad about it. </p><p> </p><p> The community more or less resorts to digging mud on the guy.</p><p> </p><p> When someone brings up Orton, the topic is Orton. Wrestling related/non-wrestling related. It rarely strays further from that as with any wrestler.</p><p> </p><p> With Bret, it always continues on to the point that even in a topic not entirely about Bret...it becomes not only about Bret but what little dirt that can then be manipulated to make Bret sound so bad.</p><p> </p><p> MMA forums/topics have a similar level of hatred in a similarly beloved fighter in Randy Couture.</p><p> </p><p> It's one thing to have hardcore haters and nuthuggers rooting for their fans and hating on what they hate. That's the natural way with forums that provide for anonymity. However only Couture can have hardcore fans act like noobs and say they don't understand why Couture is considered a legend and bring up such false facts as getting instant title shots and being boring throughout his entire career.</p><p> </p><p> The difference here with Bret and Couture is that Couture can be considered a "nice" fighter who largely has the same impact as any other top fighter.</p><p> </p><p> Pro-wrestling however has always been littered with main eventers who not only won't put a guy over but sometimes flat out bury them. </p><p> </p><p> Bret is not just some great wrestler that reached the main event. I know of no other account where any other WWE main eventer allowed a rising star to get one over him that happened when said main eventer had not had a long title reign to begin with.</p><p> </p><p> If the topic about Bret's cheating was recent, then fine. If it somehow came up and people considered him to be a jerk for that. Fine. </p><p> </p><p> What you have here though, as it often happens with Bret, is that Bret's cheating is not only put into a context of what the facts/anecdotes say but you literally have guys not only guessing but claiming innocence over their actions and even going so far as trying to flame bait by claiming they don't understand where I'm coming from.</p><p> </p><p> That just warrants a reply but like I said already, I don't want to engage in this argument. The mods don't like it. I find it pointless. I just don't like guys going all innocent and saying something like <em>"You wouldn't be the only one."</em> as if that helps the conversation at all and wouldn't start a whole new argument.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Tha Black Phenom" data-cite="Tha Black Phenom" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Fixed. If I were Nash I would also be talking about cellphone texts and having a block of guards around me. All Nash could've done was cheap shot him.<p> </p><p> I think it's less that Punk has no problem with the belt and more that some old geezer who he thought his career was over comes and costs him the title, and with the whole authority deal.. plus, has to be mentioned Punk cashed in his briefcase in a similar situation. But once he's done with Nash i'm sure he'll go right back for the belt(or take that break he wanted).</p></div></blockquote><p> </p><p> Besides what dj said, Punk isn't really at the top of his game. Not more so than the previous years.</p><p> </p><p> He's more over sure. More entertaining definitely. </p><p> </p><p> Let's not forget however that Punk when he first came to the WWE was winning championships left and right and this Punk is coming off a period of irrelevance and his wins over Cena are hardly dominating and Cena wasn't built up like Batista and Punk as a character definitely hasn't shown anything different from the time he was losing to Rey Mysterio if you took the promos away.</p><p> </p><p> Punk had to say what he had to say to make the feud continue as it is but if you analyzed the entire feud, it doesn't make sense because the very reason Punk supposedly came back was to legitimize the WWE belt. </p><p> </p><p> They pretty much kept repeating that over and over in their promos. This isn't about HHH, this isn't about politics - this is about John Cena (fake champion Cena who constantly gets hand gifted championships which dilute the entertainment value of the top brand) versus the real pro wrestler who deserves it CM Punk.</p><p> </p><p> To add weakness to the entire feud, Nash had just shown that he could Jackknife Powerbomb Punk. Old man or not, that is vintage Nash (Diesel) and vintage Nash had always kicked more ass than talk trash.</p><p> </p><p> Btw to anyone who acts like they don't get what I'm referring to regarding Bret, I suggest looking at the mirror and asking yourself whether you would go so far as refer to a non-wrestling related trivia to make any other wrestler look bad. Just read up on what you're actually writing. Some of you guys are going so far as to hypothesize on Bret's cheating just to make the guy seem like a jerk <em>as a wrestler</em>. This isn't the only place this has happened. My point is as clear as day to anyone who isn't biased towards one side or another. Bret is one of the few (if not only) wrestler where he is always put on an impossible pedestal by the IWC just to bring him down and it's often for unrelated to wrestling trivia or some major guesswork on what little flaw that's ever been dugged up with regards to him as a human.</p>

Never mind then. I thought it was clear from my last few posts. Why move on while ruining a person that's generally good. Just because there's no resolution doesn't mean the ok thing to do is to consider both parties being talked about as jerks.

<p>Well if we're just throwing out theories, I think Nash not only seemed slower more so than usual but he lacked both the energy and his decent mic talk for the first time seem mumbled. It didn't hurt that the whole thing was confusing.</p><p> </p><p> Even I kind of lost it with the whole comeback of Punk stating why Nash has problems with Waffle houses. I thought the feud seemed straight forward at first but Nash out there on the ring alone with body guards protecting him, you have to admit that's not the usual way they build up feuds. </p><p> </p><p> For one, Nash is a big man. Punk is a little guy. Nash had just power bombed Punk and now he's rambling about cellphone texts. Punk came out and now he has no problem with the championship belt. Kind of hard to pop over that. The feud killed the original feud even though this is supposed to be a continuation of it.</p>

<blockquote data-ipsquote="" class="ipsQuote" data-ipsquote-username="Hive" data-cite="Hive" data-ipsquote-contentapp="forums" data-ipsquote-contenttype="forums" data-ipsquote-contentid="25169" data-ipsquote-contentclass="forums_Topic"><div>Uhm that would depend on which person that would be. Mother Theresa, for example, I would probably not say that about. What's your point with this? You really want to open up yet another dicussion on Shawn's attitude mere weeks after we had a several pages long discussion on that very subject? For what purpose exactly?</div></blockquote><p> </p><p> My only point is what I said previously. Neutrality (or equality) seems to be something that follows Bret around throughout the perception of the IWC but others have a pass.</p><p> </p><p> It could be someone else other than HBK, everyone gets a free pass except Bret. There can't be a discussion where he is just the consensus good in a situation. </p><p> </p><p> That's just my observation anyway. I've never really been interested in these arguments as I find them to often stray towards an irrelevant point. I just think it should either be ignored or addressed. No need to always lump Bret with the other guys to stop any arguments.</p>