OldStingberg

That's true. I think the WWE is definitely trying to get Punk up to that top level. They're giving his storyline a high profile and a lot of time. I just think they've totally and completely mishandled his storyline. And I worry that if they don't improve it, in six months Punk will find himself back down the card teaming up with someone like Justin Gabriel in another attempt to revive the tag team division.

A Raw that has been getting insanely criticized recently. 10 minutes of good would do a lot more for Punk than 30 minutes of bad. Or the segments Punk is in are so bad that people are just tuning out. To be honest, I don't really see your guys' argument here. Punk has been drawing noticeably less crowd heat lately, and it's certainly and undoubtedly less heat than Cena or Orton draws. You can try and finagle ratings numbers or TV times all you want, but the heat just can't be ignored. You can argue causes for it, whose fault it is, if or how it's fixable, any number of things, but you can't argue that it's not happening.

Punk has two tainted wins over Cena and one tainted loss. And now he's in a main program that is almost universally being criticized, and it's a program that's not given him a good opponent to draw heat off of yet. As a result, he's losing his momentum and the reactions he's getting from crowds have been going down. Seriously, in their encounter two weeks ago, HHH got the crowd to pop louder in support of Vince McMahon than Punk was able to get for anything. Punk's certainly the closest the WWE has to Cena and Orton, but he's not quite there yet, and the past month has done him no favors.

By legitimate I mean guys that have main event level heat right now, guys that can legitimately carry a main event program. That's Cena and Orton right now. That's it. Punk is close, and I'd say for about a month there he was at that level. But pretty much everything since MitB has killed his momentum and knocked him down a step. I think the WWE has a lot of potential stars. Punk, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Miz, Christian, even Dolph Ziggler in my opinion. But those guys aren't going to ever reach Cena or Orton's level if the best opportunity they get is to be Cena or Orton's foe du jour.

When the WWE has two legitimate stars, yes, that's a bad thing. They should be creating new stars. And using some of their most talented workers as glorified jobbers for one of their two stars before shuffling them back off to the midcard isn't the way to create stars.

And two months ago I think it would have been safe to say with how white-hot the Punk/Cena feud was, it was painfully obvious there'd be no way they'd rush that feud to an unsatisfying conclusion before completely moving on, but look what happened. With how insanely great WWE creative has been at times lately and how unbelievably bad they've also been, I don't think anything can be painfully obvious at this point.

My bad, I assumed the joke was the traitor part, and not the bit of misinformation part.

Kind of, but not really. I'm sure they've trained together at some point, but GSP spends the majority of his time at TriStar in Montreal, and Condit is at Jackson's in Albuquerque. Condit's even said he'd be foolish to turn down a fight against GSP, and considering GSP encouraged Marquardt to drop to WW (another fighter under the Jackson umbrella), I doubt GSP would have much of a problem fighting Condit. I think the only two Jackson welterweights that wouldn't fight each other would be GSP and MacDonald since they actually train together day in and day out.

If Nash interferes and Trips doesn't turn heel, that's pretty much my worst-case scenario (other than Punk losing clean, of course, but that won't happen). I just don't see Punk regaining his momentum working a program against just Nash.

According to Brett Okamoto of ESPN, Overeem's contract is long-term and exclusive to the UFC. He was also offered an immediate title shot, but he didn't want to wait for the Cain/JDS winner. A lot of credit to both fighters for making this fight happen. Overeem could have waited and Brock could have picked an easier return fight, but instead both guys stepped up. Very cool.

I think it's far too soon for another "who's in charge?" story, so I'm not too keen on Punk winning. But it would be a disaster if he loses clean. So to me, I guess, the only thing that makes sense is Triple H winning via some sort of shenanigans. And I hope and pray those shenanigans involve a dramatic heel turn, ideally by Cena, but I'd accept a Triple H heel turn at this point. If Punk doesn't come out of NoC with a more appropriate foe than Kevin Nash or a face Triple H, I'm going to be incredibly disappointed.

Please let this be true. Cole is fine enough as a straight PBP guy, but he makes a terrible heel. The idea of a heel PBP guy is bad enough, but with Cole's nonsensical and disruptive comments, it just turns the whole booth, no matter who he's with, into a complete train wreck. Hopefully a legend like JR can re-focus and do his best to try and navigate around that wreck.

Since you're obviously not talking to me anymore and instead just railing on your perception of the IWC, I think I'll back out. Take care.

I've got few issues with Punk's performances. He hasn't been good, per se, but I think that's because of the cards he's been dealt, not because of how he's played those cards. I'm not even all that critical of Nash's performances. I think they're getting better and they're probably good enough for what he's supposed to do. My problem isn't with the performances, it's with the story. My problems are with the idea of this dumb whodunnit, the idea that Nash is a credible heel at this point, the idea that Punk should be insulting Stephanie for seemingly no reason, the idea that Triple H should take the moral high ground and defend his wife, etc. So unless Punk has become part of the WWE creative team, I'm not putting much blame for this mess on him.

Well, they did nothing to address my major complaints last night. The HHH/Nash/Punk story is getting worse and Cole is still terrible (though he did good work during the Ryder segment). And I don't get the build up for the tag title match. Air Boom and Awesome Truth are two of the best/most popular things going right now, they really should have done a better job with this instead of "we challenge you, we accept on your behalf, I shall now lose to CM Punk". Why not have Awesome Truth 2-on-1 Punk one of these last two weeks and let Air Boom make the save? Besides that, though, I really enjoyed Raw this week. Like I said, Air Boom and Awesome Truth are both great. I loved the Zack Ryder stuff. And I enjoyed the 8-man tag match, both the build up and the execution. Solid week, which is good considering Punk is still trapped in a storyline that's slowly sucking the life out of his character.

I hope not. I don't care how popular they are, the UFC should not be main eventing a PPV with two gatekeepers both coming off of losses. Anyway, I'm a big fan of Cain/JDS on Fox. Smart not only for ratings obviously but also to ensure that Fox puts all their marketing muscle behind it. At first I was a little disappointed it's going to be the only live fight, but dedicating the hour will allow them to treat the fight as an event. They can do a nice build-up, the fight will deliver, and they can wind it down with some post-fight stuff. It'll leave people feeling like they really saw something important.

Exactly. He'll never be a pantheon-level heel because his mic skills probably aren't at that level, but he can be a very good main event heel for a long time with the right push. He's good enough on the mic, he's great in the ring, and he's a great actor. I think his facial expressions and body language are top-notch.

I didn't say his mere presence in the group would put him on the level of Cena, Punk, or Orton. I said his involvement would elevate him to the point where with a little more of a push he could get to that level. In my thinking-out-loud scenario where Cena turns heel with HHH, Nash, and Ziggler in a few weeks and turns back seven months later or so at the end of WrestleMania, I think it'd make a lot of sense to feud Cena with Ziggler coming out of that WrestleMania. Not only would that be a serious top-level feud while leaving the championships free to elevate other feuds, if it played out pretty evenly with each guy getting a couple clean wins, that would be the program that would elevate Ziggler to main event status. (In my fantasy world, I'd even ideally like Ziggler to beat Taker clean at the next WM. I know a lot of people would hate that, but Taker's streak is probably the biggest tool the WWE has to easily get a heel super over and with Taker's career winding down, next WM is probably as good a time as any. Don't get me wrong, if I were Vince McMahon I certainly wouldn't require Taker to do it, but I'd ask him. And considering the guys that put him over in his first few months in the WWF, I'd hope he'd agree.) Of course Cena's a major draw in everything, including ratings. But ratings are down notably even from last year, and they're going down even more. With Edge, HHH, and Taker either retiring or effectively disappearing from active wrestling just in the last six months, the WWE needs more stars. If there's good ways to do that while keeping Cena as a face, great. I'm not sure there is, though, because the same logic that says Cena needs to be a face (he's a huge draw, he brings in money, etc.) is the same logic that would keep heels from ever actually getting over on him. Wade Barrett got literally buried by Cena and has done nothing since, The Miz finished his feud with Cena with three straight losses before moving down to feud with Alex Riley and Jared from Subway, and CM Punk managed two tainted wins before losing the title and being shuffled off to feud with Kevin Nash. The WWE needs to create new, legitimate stars, not just temporarily elevate heels for Cena to beat, and I think turning Cena heel is the best way to do it right now.

I wouldn't mind Tito/Franklin as the co-main for the Fox card. I think that fight makes a lot of sense to help draw the viewers, which could then be used to give exposure to someone like Overeem in the main event.

Very true. They would need other active wrestlers to join in the group. I think it'd be a perfect spot for Dolph Ziggler, a guy I think is a serious main event level talent just needing the proper push. Wade Barrett and The Miz are the other two I'd like to see getting pushed, but I don't think either one of them would fit a new nWo right now. I'm talking multiple heel turns over the course of an entire career. Of course if you do them too often, it kills the character, but pretty much every popular superstar has had multiple heel turns over the course of their career. And I disagree about Cena not needing to turn until his merch numbers fall. I think it'd be foolish to protect his merch numbers while the rest of the business suffers. I think the WWE is at a major crossroads right now. Their past superstars are either retiring, leaving to do other things or being severely limited by old age and injuries. That's left them in the position where they've pretty much got Cena and Orton now. If they're unwilling to do what needs to be done in order to build some stars for the future (and the present), I don't know how much help Cena's merch numbers will be.

Just so I'm not being the guy talking about everything that's going wrong, here's something I read somewhere else that I think would be phenomenal, and would not only salvage what's been going on but really set the WWE up going forward. I know the WWE is terrified of turning Cena heel, and they've got some legitimate reasons for it. But it should probably happen at some point. Every single popular wrestling superstar has survived multiple heel turns. Cena won't be any different. And now would be the perfect time to turn him, because it would capitalize on the momentum Punk has created for himself and turn him into a serious top-tier active WWE superstar (bringing the total number up to three). The WWE would undoubtedly lose some merchandise sales from the parents of Cena fans, but they can make up some of that by pushing someone like Good Sin Cara alongside Punk against the new nWo. Plus the increase in PPV buys the next few months would help close that gap. Could you imagine the buzz for a Survivor Series of Team nWo (Cena, HHH, Nash, Evil Sin Cara?, Dolph Ziggler?) vs. Team WWE (Punk, Good Sin Cara, John Morrison, Daniel Bryan, and The Rock). Then imagine a WrestleMania headlined by Cena/Rock and Punk/Ziggler or even Punk/Jericho potentially. They could even turn Cena back at this point. Cena could lose to the Rock, take it as a wake-up call, and after a little post-match mic work, WrestleMania could close with Cena and the Rock shaking hands and raising each others hand for the crowd. I think this is the sort of thing the WWE needs right now going forward. A storyline like this would solidify Punk among the few top active wrestlers in the WWE, it would rekindle interest among many former WWE fans, and it would help elevate good and/or popular workers like Ziggler, Sin Cara, Bryan, and Morrison to the point where with a little more push, they might be able to join Cena, Orton, and Punk as guys that could main event a PPV, and not just against Cena, Orton, or Punk. This sort of story certainly isn't the only way to accomplish these things. But these sort of things really need to be accomplished right now, I just hope the WWE is really thinking moderately long-term enough to address them with whatever they're cooking up.

And yet Bryan gets absolutely no pop from the crowd. I'm not arguing what Cole is doing should or should not work. I'm arguing it obviously doesn't work. You can say Cole putting down Bryan should work, but I'm saying that based on the crowd's reaction to him, it doesn't work. And I think what Cole is doing to Bryan while he continues to lose repeatedly has the capability of doing some amount of real damage to Bryan. I'm not a fan of the thinking that, "Oh, they'll only need a couple months to rehabilitate his character". The WWE has two-and-a-half legitimate active stars right now: Cena, Orton, and Punk. That's it. And I think that's largely because of these short-sighted ideas about burying and rehabilitating characters. They're pushing Mark Henry hard now because they need a new heel du jour for Orton (apparently a seventh Orton/Christian match in the span of a couple months is just too much), but Henry's only got half the heat he should because a lot of people remember Sexual Chocolate fathering a hand. Unless the WWE starts doing something different with Bryan, by the time his character gets rehabilitated for his WrestleMania push, he'll only have half the heat he should because a lot of people will remember him as the boring vegan with a couple submission moves who lost a bunch of matches.

I don't think Sin Cara or Wade Barrett are necessarily over his card position, but regardless, if they're keeping him relevant, they're doing a terrible job of it considering he gets almost zero reaction from crowds now. And it's not just that he's losing, but he's doing it while an announcer absolutely trashes him in ways that aren't being countered in any way at all by anyone. I think this is a great idea. Not only would that help refute Cole's messages that I think have a chance of sticking to Bryan, but going over Cole in some way would be an easy way to build Bryan some sort of relevance. Unfortunately considering that's pretty much what's happening with Otunga and King, I doubt they go back to that well to help Bryan out.

We'll just agree to disagree on Punk. I think the WWE wasted a golden opportunity to make Punk more than the (co-)main eventer du jour, you don't. I totally agree that Bryan's never gonna be a carry-a-PPV superstar. And I know that there's a lot of time to build him back up before WrestleMania. But they already have their work cut out for them in building him up to being a legitimate addition to a big WrestleMania match, they don't need to bury him right now and make it harder. I can see maybe not pushing him for a bit, but they're outright burying him. He's losing clean every week at this point, all the while Michael Cole is doing nothing but saying how little charisma he has (which hurts because it's true) and now he's even saying that Bryan doesn't know more than two submission moves. Bryan's technical wrestling ability is almost literally all that he has, one of the announcers shouldn't be cutting that out from under him before it ever gets properly established. And all the other two announcers could do was wait for him to do another move and say, "Look, three moves!" Great damage control, guys. As a result, Bryan is one of the least over guys that actually gets on TV still. And that's why I don't think it makes any sense to have Sin Cara turn on him. Why have Sin Cara turn on a guy the crowd doesn't care about? To be honest, I'm one of the millions of people that stopped watching the WWE in the last decade. But the buzz around Punk brought me back in for a re-examination, and the MitB PPV made me think that the WWE was really starting to get it. Nearly everything since then, though, is telling me that the WWE is still the short-sighted company that struggles to build proper stars or interesting stories. I figure I'll give them up through NoC to see if they improve what they've got going on, but I'm not optimistic.

That's my point, though, they should be helping Punk get as over as possible. He was on fire coming out of MitB, he was getting mainstream coverage, everyone was raving about his work, the story he was involved in, everything. The WWE had a serious chance to turn Punk into a legitimate long-term superstar that could bring back a number of old fans. But instead they rushed him back to TV and got him wrapped up in this middling whodunnit that's not doing anything to further what made Punk so suddenly relevant. They had a chance to do something incredible with Punk, but now I'm left hoping he doesn't find himself stuck in the same sort of no man's land by the next WrestleMania that former main eventers like The Miz and Wade Barrett currently find themselves in. But hey, it could be worse, he could be Daniel Bryan, who finds himself facing the dual threat of losing clean matches repeatedly while the announcers help bury him. It's almost awkward to see Bryan carrying around the MitB briefcase and yet getting almost no reaction when he comes out. (And just so I'm not totally trashing the WWE, I do love what they're doing with Air Boom. That's been the one bright spot these past couple of weeks for me.)