What people think about the database proposed?

[thedraem41]

I was a bit disappointed myself when I read the WMMA universe was starting in 1996. My main concern with that is, you can pick certain zones on the world map you'd like to dive into. You only have the ones that were hit in the real universe. Kind of dampers the realism and possibilities in the game. I also wanted to see the world in 2007 so it would be playing hand in hand with the TEW world.

[Capelli King]

[QUOTE=Jay_Fish;279154]as far as competition in mma and adequite roster sizes, it will all depend on how you run your shows, and the different suspensions for injuries and drugs will go. being mma, you dont need the 30 man rosters or greater that are sometimes involved in wrestling. Also to a point i think some competition will be created by the other promotions champions[/QUOTE] I do not think i agree. If you have 5 weight categories on a big promotion, you will need at least 10 in each category. So not less than 50 fighters

[Capelli King]

[QUOTE=thedraem41;279155] My main concern with that is, you can pick certain zones on the world map you'd like to dive into. You only have the ones that were hit in the real universe. Kind of dampers the realism and possibilities in the game. [QUOTE] Yeah that was one thing i was also thinking about

[Adam Ryland]

[QUOTE=thedraem41;279155]My main concern with that is, you can pick certain zones on the world map you'd like to dive into. You only have the ones that were hit in the real universe. Kind of dampers the realism and possibilities in the game.[/QUOTE] On the one hand you say that you're disappointed that it only takes place in the same areas as the real universe, then in the next sentence you say it dampens the realism. It can't be both!

[Tommy J.]

[QUOTE=James Casey;278221]Out of curiosity, how many MMA organisations are running around the world right now?[/quote] I'd guesstimate something around 200, maybe a little less. These would be the promotions which are able to run more than 2-3 events before going under. In fact Sherdog id's for organizations go as high up as 973 for the relatively new Palace Fighting Championship, but that includes all of the defunct promotions as well. [quote]And how many were running in the mid-90s? I'm no expert (looking forward to going in cold, kinda) but I thought that only UFC and maybe Pancrase and the worked-shoot UWFi were particularly popular in the mid 90s.[/QUOTE] I did a little bit of reading on this one as I too was curious to find that out (using the start of WMMA, July 1996). North America had, above all else, the UFC, which would pretty much paralell the American promotion in WMMA. Other than that there was the Hawaiian Icon Sport since 1995. A very obscure International Fighting Championship had it's first event (in Kiev actually, but they moved to the US since) in March 96. Extreme Challenge kicked off in November 1996. Other "usual suspects" did start a bit later. KotC in 1998, TKO in 2000 and WEC in 2001. I don't think there was any promotion in Europe back then. Finnfight seems to be the oldest one having started in 1998. Cage Rage ran it's first show in 2002. Japan was obviously the hotbed of MMA in the 90-ties, though PRIDE 1 didn't take place until October 1997. Pancrase and Rings were the two prominent orgs. Shooto, while not really a promotion, goes back to 1989. There was also Vale Tudo Japan, since 1994, which had organized annual tourneys - quite prominent as they got Rickson to compete in the 94 and 95 editions. I'd also suspect that there would be some smaller shows but it's really hard to find them. UWFi was really more like the Cornellverse Inspire than any MMA promotion. Additionaly there was at least one worthwhile promotion in Brazil (Brazilian Vale Tudo Fighting, since May 1996), IVC started in 1997. As for the women, WMMA turns out to be way ahead of time. Womens fighting seems to me is only now coming into the spotlight, the premier female-only org, Smackgirl, was founded in 2000. So aside from Japan there were, more or less, four organizations active in July 1996, 3 of them in the US. Having that in mind I don't really have an issue with the size of the database, especially if Adam will keep expanding it as time passes. Ideally, for 1996, I'd like for a promotion in Brazil and a second-tier show in Japan to be included, but, again, the way the db is set up so far isn't anything too far off reality.

[BlizzardVeers]

Personally, I think it's fine so long as the number of fighters that appear are more then the ones that do in TEW based on popularity and the like. Having a smaller amount of workers means you either need to not care about weightclasses, or just focus on one in particular. ALA UFC 1 - .. I forget which had no weight classes, and the original PRIDE shows which just focused on Heavyweight.

[Capelli King]

I was also thinking about the freeweight on the limited database. As you said, it depends on how quickly fighters come and go and how they develop

[Tommy J.]

[QUOTE=BlizzardVeers;279610] Having a smaller amount of workers means you either need to not care about weightclasses, or just focus on one in particular. ALA UFC 1 - .. I forget which had no weight classes, and the original PRIDE shows which just focused on Heavyweight.[/QUOTE] The Unified Rules, along with the specified weight classes, were devised and enacted in 2000. However the UFC began to group their fighters into weight classes as early as UFC 12 in 1997. Oh and Pride in little way focused on the Heavyweights. They just put popular fighters agains one another, and Japanese people seem to like freakshow matches. The Gracies, Carlos Newton, Sakuraba, arguably Wanderlei, Takada, Vovchanchyn and Belfort weren't really heavyweights yet they all fought somewhere on the first 10 PRIDE cards. Still, they didn't use weight classes until 2001.

[kettley]

I think people are stuck in a "pro-wrestling-TEW" mentality when looking at the number of fighters. Don't forget that top guys in MMA may only have 2/3 matches a year and that some feds run a lot less than a show a month. If you had a heavyweight division with say 10 guys (for the sake of argument lets say that's 4 who are considered contenders, 3 who are borderline prospects and 3 who are just fodder) you have potentially years worth of programmes to get through. Add extra guys to the division or fill it with stronger fighters and you increase the options hugely. And that's with just one small division.

[MckHick]

Awesome!!! I'm very excited for this game and can't wait for it to come out. Ever since I was young I watched the UFC from its inception back when there were no weight limits and everything went. I am glad to see the sport finally getting recognized as a sport. I'm glad one of my favorite game designers Adam Ryland is trying his luck out with the world of Mixed Martial Arts and can't wait for the game to come out. I think it'll be great to see how the original 4 promotions turn out into the entire world. The game really should start when MMA was being revitalized and becoming a known part of the world of athletics.

[Carlzilla]

If there's only 4 real promotions, I don't really think that 200 fighters is that small of a number. Plus, we can always add our own fighters to the database.

[Capelli King]

[QUOTE=kettley;279859]I think people are stuck in a "pro-wrestling-TEW" mentality when looking at the number of fighters. Don't forget that top guys in MMA may only have 2/3 matches a year and that some feds run a lot less than a show a month. [/QUOTE] I think you have a good point there

[mikey5time]

It all depends. I know that out of Halifax where I live, we have already has 2 different promotions do shows this year, with another on the way and another in one province over. Five shows in one region (The Maritimes) from four different companies. Why do I post this? I DON'T KNOW! Oh wait, yeah I do. On all of those shows we're seeing alot of local fighters. I think 200 fighters will not be enough. Really, there should be alot of 'local' fighters. You need top level and you need low level. The last card here, King of the Cage Canada, had an undercard filled with local fighters, a semi-main event featuring a local hero, and a main event featuring a local champion against a UFC undercard guy. How will we be able to simulate a small local promotion without small, local, unestablished fighters to pay peanuts to?

[James Casey]

Therein lies the challenge, of course. Your job will be to take on the lowest, no-name/no-talent (or both) fighters, and try and put together a decent show with them. Out of curiosity, can anyone take part in an MMA fight? Or do promotions require a basic level of competence in their fighters? I'm sure there's money to be earned from feeding some arrogant schmuck to Tito Ortiz or whatever, but at the same time having a universe full of people who all have at least one stat in the C or better range will seem... weird.

[Undertaker666]

[QUOTE=mikey5time;280169]It all depends. I know that out of Halifax where I live, we have already has 2 different promotions do shows this year, with another on the way and another in one province over. Five shows in one region (The Maritimes) from four different companies.[/QUOTE] It's currently the year 2007, the database is set in 1996. How many promotions did you have running shows in your area back then?

[mikey5time]

A very valid point, my point however is that this severely limits my game play options. Now, I'm not just whining. I'd suggest if possible that there be 96' scenario released with the game, and possibly an expanded scenario later. The 'birth of MMA' doesn't appeal to me as much as starting off in a thriving industry. It would be more interesting to be a small local show, and build yourself up to bringing in established stars. I just don't see the depth in 200 fighters. What percentage would really be 'established' ?

[Undertaker666]

[QUOTE=mikey5time;280219]It would be more interesting to be a small local show, and build yourself up to bringing in established stars. I just don't see the depth in 200 fighters. What percentage would really be 'established' ?[/QUOTE] The British promotion is the smallest of the four and will offer the greatest challenge so you could choose that one. I don't know percentage-wise how many fighters will be established, but all of the most famous and dangerous competitors would be in the larger promotions in the USA and Japan. Alternatively you can use the Editor and create a small promotion in your own area and hire the unemployed people if you'd like to. Even if every default promotion had a roster of 30 fighters that'd still leave you with 80 people to choose from.

[Tommy J.]

[QUOTE=James Casey;280193] Out of curiosity, can anyone take part in an MMA fight? Or do promotions require a basic level of competence in their fighters? I'm sure there's money to be earned from feeding some arrogant schmuck to Tito Ortiz or whatever, but at the same time having a universe full of people who all have at least one stat in the C or better range will seem... weird.[/QUOTE] Back in the day pretty much anyone could fight, even in the big-leagues (case in point: Joe Son, Paul Varleans, Nathan Jones of WWE fame), it's still like this in Japanese promotions (see Bernard Ackah, Giant Silva, Zuluzinho). In the US recently commission are getting more stringent in allowing licences, there are efforts to create an amateur circuit, and you can't pretty much feed a can to Tito, b/c the comission will in all likelihood veto it. I don't really know how I stand on the issue of huge mismatches in MMA. On one hand having them veto'ed would be the most realistic way to do it, especially for modern day mods. On the other hand if there are ca 200 fighters in the db this would severely limit the options in the Cornellverse version.

[teakle]

[QUOTE=Undertaker666;280224]The British promotion .... people to choose from.[/QUOTE] I hope you don't mind me asking, but moving away from the amount of people in the database, where is the competition for the players in this database? In the TEW world, again I repeat that I know there is no direct comparison, as TCW I would compete with SWF and vice versa. As DAVE I would compete with TCW and SWF, whilst trying to hold down other Cult level promotions. As CZCW I would compete with everyone who tried to steal my talent! etc... I do not see where the competition will be coming from in WMMA. There are only 4 promotions. The 2 large promotions are on different continents. The Canadian promotion is the only women's fed. The UK fed seems too small to compete with anyone. So how does the default database create competition? Is is simply the case that you have to compete in something of a vacuum trying to build up your own promotion?

[mikey5time]

Who can fight is all based on local commissions. Some areas require you to pass medicals and they'll clear you to fight anyone. Some will look closely at your record. When Butterbean was going to fight Mark Hunt, the California athletic commission said no, as Hunt was a much more experienced MMA fighter. So Butterbean ate Sean O'Haire instead.

[AlaskanHero]

I think 200 fighters is plenty for just four promotions. Unless each group has 30-40 fighters in exclusive contracts, there should be plenty of talent to go around.

[Capelli King]

It seems to me that after listening to most people in the forums, the majority would like a modern day environment with more workers and more promotions and competition. Of course form what i see, Adam won't have that ready for the original release. However i am sure that a little down the road, he will make a 2007 or 2008 mod for the game and leave the 1996 mod for players wishing to play the MMA world at its beginning. I see advantages in both the mods myself, and either way i am 100% buying the game irrelevant to the database. As mentioned before, the database can be modified, almost everyone does to some extent anyway. I am sure Adam will have a competetive atmosphere worthy of the original Cornellverse. If not straight away, then slightly latter. In TEW i usually played the Cornellverse, that is an indication on how much i rated it in TEW.

[MckHick]

I'm always about real world mods, but I think I will enjoy shaping the world of MMA from it's recovery period. I love MMA so much and the new UFC button smasher for the 360 won't be coming out until at least next year that I am putting this game on my must buy list with the following: Mass Effect Call of Duty 4 GTA IV Assassin's Creed Smackdown vs. Raw 08 Just sitting here until then waiting for the demo to be released or at least get another blog update from Adam!

[Dvdmanny]

I agree with you Capelli King, I prefered the Cornellverse over the real world mods as I like shaping a fictional universe. I think it will be fun to start a small promotion and try and turn it into a major player. Thats what I always enjoyed doing with TEW

[Undertaker666]

[QUOTE=teakle;280262]I hope you don't mind me asking, but moving away from the amount of people in the database, where is the competition for the players in this database? In the TEW world, again I repeat that I know there is no direct comparison, as TCW I would compete with SWF and vice versa. As DAVE I would compete with TCW and SWF, whilst trying to hold down other Cult level promotions. As CZCW I would compete with everyone who tried to steal my talent! etc... I do not see where the competition will be coming from in WMMA. There are only 4 promotions. The 2 large promotions are on different continents. The Canadian promotion is the only women's fed. The UK fed seems too small to compete with anyone. So how does the default database create competition? Is is simply the case that you have to compete in something of a vacuum trying to build up your own promotion?[/QUOTE] You don't have to compete in a vacuum because you'll choose where you hold your shows, just like in TEW. Plus, as Adam stated in his Developer's Journal, not every area is equal because certain areas will have more "prestige" because they're hotbeds for MMA. ie. if you make your company well known in Nevada then your company will be held in higher regard than if it was popular in Droitwich, England for example. (take a look at post no.4 in the Developer's Journal for a better explanation) As for more competition, you'll want the best fighters working for your company. In TEW you want a top star like Tommy Cornell working for you but he wont sign because he's at a better company, same thing with WMMA, start as a smaller company and work your way up the ladder and steal all their top talent.